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  • Lovejoe
    If you refer to Einstein, he was not a religious, he never practiced Jews and he was opposed to a God figure who controls the fate and physics in this world.
    Message 1 of 27 , Sep 25, 2006
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      If you refer to Einstein, he was not a religious, he
      never practiced Jews and he was opposed to a God
      figure who controls the fate and physics in this world.
      But he was believing in Spinoza's God as
      MOST of the 20th century's first generation scientiests believe.
      You oppose, probably because of lack of your information on
      "history" and philosophy of science, as I diagnosed
      in your early e-mail.
      As far as you do not grasp scientific philosophies
      and know the history of the area that you love to work,
      you cannot be a damn good complete scientist.

      It's not wise to come into deathtoreligion group and
      promote your views of god or religious science,
      thinking may be that deathtoreligion'ers are absent of science...

      Let me explain more about these generations.
      I can group the 20th century
      physics scientists in 3 generations;
      The first generation, including Einstein,
      were mostly beliving in Spinoza's God,
      the God who has created the universe with great
      enthusiasm and hope but turned down and depressed
      by the HUMANITY working with evil and then God
      left everything uncontrolled, turned down the humans...
      Except of course, few names like Bohr who were really religious
      from the first generation.

      The second generation of scientists including R. Feynman,
      were mostly pure atheists, no religion - no God type.
      They who understood the views and visions of the first
      generation and improved the theories of first generations.
      They did not change, but understood and improved them.
      The second generation were so successfull understanding
      and solving the problems and questions left by the first
      generations. But, they produced very heavy questions
      and paradoxes to the next generations.
      They left extremely complex hypothesis and ungraspable
      number of dimensions together with imaginary solutions,
      imaginary experiments, imaginary particles, forces etc
      to the next generation.

      And the third and last generation of scientists
      probably including yourself, are somehow hit the wall!
      Meaning, rendered themselves unsucsesfull to understand
      even underlying fundamental principles.
      Because the amount of complex and imaginary information
      left by 2nd generation is too big to grasp,
      you never find time and energy to understand
      the first generation's simpler and factual fundementals.

      New scientists, feeling hopeless, carrying heavy load,
      under pressure of new economical systems, they actually
      transformed simple physical questions to
      the searching of the meaning of life and of course
      they can't find an answer... Their mind is really mixed up.
      Like the one who falls into ocean asks help from the sharks,
      they turned to God, because they can't understand a
      damn thing, even they can perfectly calculate !

      Hiting the wall is a good example, because some of 3rd generations
      do not stop by hitting the wall once,
      they want to hit again and again... Like religious people
      hits themselves to cry-walls or whatever.
      For example; if one understand and agrees with
      the theory of General Relativity, should not run after
      an imaginary particle called "graviton".
      Could imagine it, could use it in a mathematical model
      or whatever, but should not get crazy to find it !
      If one spend his/her life searching for a "real" graviton
      means three things:
      1- GR is wrong.
      2- He/she understood GR but does not agree.
      3- He/she agree with GR but does not understand.

      1st and 2nd options are same thing, if GR is wrong
      or he/she does not agree, before searching the graviton,
      he/she must provide a better and correct explanation,
      a new theory !!!!! Then can search for the graviton
      to prove the new theory. They do not provide a new
      theory, they agree with GR, but they still look for
      graviton, leaves only one option: They don't understand GR!
      Although they calculate everything but everything like a magician.

      This is a generic problem in science with the 3rd generation.
      This problem is abundant in Quantum physics, not only GR.
      They simply do not understand fundemental idea of theories.
      They know formulas and calculations like a hell.
      But doesn't know what formulas or calculations really means!
      Either they think theories represent the reality
      or they think reality is result of calculations.

      Apperently you think you are a damn good scientist,
      but your fate is already drawn! 3rd generation is hopeless.
      Believe in God or not, there is no solution.
      About 20 or more years, you'll strugle with equations
      without understanding the real meaning behind.
      It is 4th may be 5th generations in end of 21st century
      who will make "some" acheivements, real acheivements...
      With the help of self destruction or weakness
      of religions as the war between them intensifying in these years.

      Of course I'm not sure, I'm not a fortune teller neither magican!
      But Asimov says; if you have enough
      information about the past, you can predict the future...
      You just need to see the patterns of evolution.

      Cem






      --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "cnapmak86" <cnapmak86@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > OHHH! now you i like, thank you for a certain clarity and addition
      to
      > points i missed, but do not bad mouth my capability in science.
      >
      > if you read the reply i posted, some things may become clearer.
      (that
      > is if you feel i have not provided an adequate response)
      >
      > i am still very oposed to the idea that the best scientist are
      > athiest, as most of the best seem to be Jews by birth. not to
      mension
      > that sertain studies are done in secrecy. so it just seems like a
      > means to dignify atheism as the way of genius.
      >
      > thank you for the welcome, still wont call myself an agnostic.
      > anyway its a pleasure.
      >
    • Lovejoe
      Start telling me why you are not Jew but Christ ? Jesus was born as Jew and his original religion was Jew too and he did not live enough to create or invoke
      Message 2 of 27 , Sep 25, 2006
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        Start telling me why you are not Jew but Christ ?
        Jesus was born as Jew and his original religion was Jew too
        and he did not live enough to create or invoke
        another religion. He was still Jew when he died !!!!
        So who are Christians really ?
        Some guys after him transformed Jew into a new religion,
        by writing slightly different stories.
        And you believe in them, but not in Jews.
        What is the difference between Jew and Christianism?
        What Christians denounced or added to Jew to transform
        it to Christianism ?
        And continue telling us what is your sub-religion?
        Protestant, Orthodox or Catholic ?
        What is your sub-church?
        Why you still haven't created your own personal Church ???
        And tell me why you are Christ, but not Muslim ?
        And tell me that its your very own choice !
        And tell me that if you were born in Saudi Arabia or Iran
        you would still choose the Christ !!!!!!
        And make us laugh.

        Cem



        --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "praesto12" <Praesto12@...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        > Well I hope all of you guys are doing well.
        >
        > My name is Richard and I'm seeking an intellectual challenge to
        > Christianity from Atheist,Pantheist,Agnostic, and anyone else open
        > for fair discussion.
        >
        > Being as I don't publically debate(yet) I am looking for a lions
        > den in which I am able to challenge my faith in the message of
        > Christ.
        >
        > I noticed the web sites name so this seemed like a good site to
        > seek a challenge. I don't want the conversation to regress into ad
        > homenim attacks. I just want an intellectual dialouge on the most
        > important topic in human history-God. Anyone up for the discussion?
        > Thank you.
        > Grace and Peace.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "kensharp81"
        > <kensharp81@> wrote:
        > >
        > > While I don't entirely subscribe to LD's caustic tone, I agree
        > with
        > > him. From my experience this group seems to be open enough to
        > > engage "contrary" perspectives.
        > >
        > > I never considered this to be an "atheist group". "Death to
        > > religion", doesn't necessarily entail "death to god(s)". I'm not
        > a
        > > theist myself. However, that was the conclusion that I made
        > judging
        > > from the title...
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, lord damien
        > > <lord_damien2002@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > yeah dont worry mate - you have managed to find an athiest
        group
        > > where you will be able to blabber away about your theocracy all
        > day.
        > > (presumably between your little prayer sessions to allah). so go
        > for
        > > it - hell - you will even get replies lol
        > > >
        > > > devasma <devasma@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > i look forward to a comment and will be very disapointed if
        > the
        > > > > organisers deside this to be too ofensive or, god forbid,
        > > thought
        > > > > provoking.
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > > Don't worry, it is neither.
        > > >
        > > > devas
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ---------------------------------
        > > > Copy addresses and emails from any email account to Yahoo!
        > Mail -
        > > quick, easy and free. Do it now...
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • lord damien
        Cem - hehehe - you make me laugh. that is very clever. I really doubt our friend praesto will ever truly listen to anything anyone says. We all know he is not
        Message 3 of 27 , Sep 25, 2006
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          Cem - hehehe - you make me laugh. that is very clever. I really doubt our friend praesto will ever truly listen to anything anyone says. We all know he is not here for discussion but merely to promote his god - and no doubt eventually his specific sub-religion which, incidentally, was his "very own choice". Perhaps i should learn to find more amusement in these people rather than focusing on the fact they are probably lost causes

          Start telling me why you are not Jew but Christ ?
          Jesus was born as Jew and his original religion was Jew too
          and he did not live enough to create or invoke
          another religion. He was still Jew when he died !!!!
          So who are Christians really ?
          Some guys after him transformed Jew into a new religion,
          by writing slightly different stories.
          And you believe in them, but not in Jews.
          What is the difference between Jew and Christianism?
          What Christians denounced or added to Jew to transform
          it to Christianism ?
          And continue telling us what is your sub-religion?
          Protestant, Orthodox or Catholic ?
          What is your sub-church?
          Why you still haven't created your own personal Church ???
          And tell me why you are Christ, but not Muslim ?
          And tell me that its your very own choice !
          And tell me that if you were born in Saudi Arabia or Iran
          you would still choose the Christ !!!!!!
          And make us laugh.

          Cem

          --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "praesto12" <Praesto12@...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > Well I hope all of you guys are doing well.
          >
          > My name is Richard and I'm seeking an intellectual challenge to
          > Christianity from Atheist,Pantheist,Agnostic, and anyone else open
          > for fair discussion.
          >
          > Being as I don't publically debate(yet) I am looking for a lions
          > den in which I am able to challenge my faith in the message of
          > Christ.
          >
          > I noticed the web sites name so this seemed like a good site to
          > seek a challenge. I don't want the conversation to regress into ad
          > homenim attacks. I just want an intellectual dialouge on the most
          > important topic in human history-God. Anyone up for the discussion?
          > Thank you.
          > Grace and Peace.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "kensharp81"
          > <kensharp81@> wrote:
          > >
          > > While I don't entirely subscribe to LD's caustic tone, I agree
          > with
          > > him. From my experience this group seems to be open enough to
          > > engage "contrary" perspectives.
          > >
          > > I never considered this to be an "atheist group". "Death to
          > > religion", doesn't necessarily entail "death to god(s)". I'm not
          > a
          > > theist myself. However, that was the conclusion that I made
          > judging
          > > from the title...
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, lord damien
          > > <lord_damien2002@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > yeah dont worry mate - you have managed to find an athiest
          group
          > > where you will be able to blabber away about your theocracy all
          > day.
          > > (presumably between your little prayer sessions to allah). so go
          > for
          > > it - hell - you will even get replies lol
          > > >
          > > > devasma <devasma@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > i look forward to a comment and will be very disapointed if
          > the
          > > > > organisers deside this to be too ofensive or, god forbid,
          > > thought
          > > > > provoking.
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > > Don't worry, it is neither.
          > > >
          > > > devas
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > ---------------------------------
          > > > Copy addresses and emails from any email account to Yahoo!
          > Mail -
          > > quick, easy and free. Do it now...
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > >
          >






          ---------------------------------
          Copy addresses and emails from any email account to Yahoo! Mail - quick, easy and free. Do it now...

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • a a
          Well, I suppose I shouldn t respond to your tone but try to specifically tackle what may be going on in your mind. First let me say that if you have serious
          Message 4 of 27 , Sep 25, 2006
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            Well, I suppose I shouldn't respond to your tone but
            try to specifically tackle what may be going on in
            your mind.
            First let me say that if you have serious
            questions,serious ideas and you want to intellectually
            challenge anything(logically) about the Christian
            message then I'm up for it.
            Secondly, if you're immature and just want to complain
            or bitch then I want no part of it. I want you to pose
            serious questions or ideas you have about God, and if
            you can then I will seriously "hear" you and try to
            adquately respond.
            Show respect and I will give respect.
            Show thought and I will give thought. That's really
            all I want,seriously.

            Okay, so there seemed to be a couple basic questions
            you had which would be "Why am I Christian instead of
            Jewish," "Why am I not muslim," and "What is the role
            of cultural influence in the religion one adheres to,
            and if I were born in a different culture would I be a
            different religion just because of my
            culture-contrasting cultural influence to Free will
            and autonomy of thought." If this is a fair assesment
            of what you're asking then I will respond.

            First, Yes, absolutely Christ was a Jew-he is their
            Christ as well. He was one of the purposes why the
            Jews were chosen-to give the messiah-something
            prophecied hundreds of years before Christ was
            born,something you may want to look in to. So
            objectively and logically I think the prophecies of
            the Old testament, the alignment of the Christ to
            these prophecies, the fullfillment of the reality of
            the Christ as the manifested word of God-that being
            the Old testament I think that it is fair to "chose"
            Christ over just the Jewish Tradition. However the
            True definition of Jew is Praise, the word means
            Praise and honestly I'm simply adopted into the family
            of God as first manifested to the Jews. There
            shouldn't really be a huge difference between Jews and
            Christians in all truth, we are in the same family.
            Most of the difference which may be presented is a
            result of Jewish Pride or of "Christian" ignorance.
            The Old testament and the New are in compliation to
            one another, we are all(if honest) in this developing
            kingdom of God. I can discuss that further if you'd
            like. Personally however I'd have to say that I enjoy
            gospel music and have read too much of Christ's
            message to not be Christian, but that's personal
            opinion, not objective fact at that point.

            Secondly, why am I not Muslim? Easy, Compare the
            message,impact,reality and nature of Jesus the Christ
            and of Muhammed and you will see that Christ is who he
            says he is, muhammed is not.Compare them.

            Lastly, if I were born in a muslim country would I be
            muslim, well I think that's not really the question
            persay but rather it's a question of "is one's culture
            the sole contributor to one's religion" and my answer
            is no. Culture influences us deeply, obviously but
            there is too much to the contrary to reduce religious
            choice to cultural thought. I'm an example of that and
            probably millions of people are what they are because
            of their thinking not soley because of their culture.
            If you think this is impossible then what about you,
            are you just the result of culture or are you making a
            free choice?
            If you are the result of your culture then would you
            consider thinking outside of your culture, and if you
            are not the result of your culture then wouldn't it be
            possible for others to not be the result of their
            culture?




            >
            > Start telling me why you are not Jew but
            > Christ ?
            > Jesus was born as Jew and his original religion was
            > Jew too
            > and he did not live enough to create or invoke
            > another religion. He was still Jew when he died !!!!
            > So who are Christians really ?
            > Some guys after him transformed Jew into a new
            > religion,
            > by writing slightly different stories.
            > And you believe in them, but not in Jews.
            > What is the difference between Jew and Christianism?
            >
            > What Christians denounced or added to Jew to
            > transform
            > it to Christianism ?
            > And continue telling us what is your sub-religion?
            > Protestant, Orthodox or Catholic ?
            > What is your sub-church?
            > Why you still haven't created your own personal
            > Church ???
            > And tell me why you are Christ, but not Muslim ?
            > And tell me that its your very own choice !
            > And tell me that if you were born in Saudi Arabia or
            > Iran
            > you would still choose the Christ !!!!!!
            > And make us laugh.
            >
            > Cem
            >
            > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "praesto12"
            > <Praesto12@...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Well I hope all of you guys are doing well.
            > >
            > > My name is Richard and I'm seeking an intellectual
            > challenge to
            > > Christianity from Atheist,Pantheist,Agnostic, and
            > anyone else open
            > > for fair discussion.
            > >
            > > Being as I don't publically debate(yet) I am
            > looking for a lions
            > > den in which I am able to challenge my faith in
            > the message of
            > > Christ.
            > >
            > > I noticed the web sites name so this seemed like a
            > good site to
            > > seek a challenge. I don't want the conversation to
            > regress into ad
            > > homenim attacks. I just want an intellectual
            > dialouge on the most
            > > important topic in human history-God. Anyone up
            > for the discussion?
            > > Thank you.
            > > Grace and Peace.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com,
            > "kensharp81"
            > > <kensharp81@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > While I don't entirely subscribe to LD's caustic
            > tone, I agree
            > > with
            > > > him. From my experience this group seems to be
            > open enough to
            > > > engage "contrary" perspectives.
            > > >
            > > > I never considered this to be an "atheist
            > group". "Death to
            > > > religion", doesn't necessarily entail "death to
            > god(s)". I'm not
            > > a
            > > > theist myself. However, that was the conclusion
            > that I made
            > > judging
            > > > from the title...
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, lord
            > damien
            > > > <lord_damien2002@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > yeah dont worry mate - you have managed to
            > find an athiest
            > group
            > > > where you will be able to blabber away about
            > your theocracy all
            > > day.
            > > > (presumably between your little prayer sessions
            > to allah). so go
            > > for
            > > > it - hell - you will even get replies lol
            > > > >
            > > > > devasma <devasma@> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > i look forward to a comment and will be very
            > disapointed if
            > > the
            > > > > > organisers deside this to be too ofensive
            > or, god forbid,
            > > > thought
            > > > > > provoking.
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Don't worry, it is neither.
            > > > >
            > > > > devas
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > ---------------------------------
            > > > > Copy addresses and emails from any email
            > account to Yahoo!
            > > Mail -
            > > > quick, easy and free. Do it now...
            > > > >
            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > removed]
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Copy addresses and emails from any email account to
            > Yahoo! Mail - quick, easy and free. Do it now...
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > removed]
            >
            >


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          • a a
            What are Christians really? I like this question. Let me simple say that a Christian is just one who follows the message of Christ,believes in the Christ, and
            Message 5 of 27 , Sep 25, 2006
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              What are Christians really?


              I like this question.

              Let me simple say that a Christian is just one who
              follows the message of Christ,believes in the Christ,
              and expresses the love,reason,hope,faith and light
              that God gives to the world as manifested through
              miracles,the scriptures, the intimacy of prayer, the
              hope of Christ and the standard and reality of the
              redemptive life Christ gives.


              If I missed any questions guys it's not because I was
              avoiding them I just didnt' have time to respond.

              --- Lovejoe <konusan1@...> wrote:

              > If you refer to Einstein, he was not a religious, he
              > never practiced Jews and he was opposed to a God
              > figure who controls the fate and physics in this
              > world.
              > But he was believing in Spinoza's God as
              > MOST of the 20th century's first generation
              > scientiests believe.
              > You oppose, probably because of lack of your
              > information on
              > "history" and philosophy of science, as I diagnosed
              > in your early e-mail.
              > As far as you do not grasp scientific philosophies
              > and know the history of the area that you love to
              > work,
              > you cannot be a damn good complete scientist.
              >
              > It's not wise to come into deathtoreligion group and
              > promote your views of god or religious science,
              > thinking may be that deathtoreligion'ers are absent
              > of science...
              >
              > Let me explain more about these generations.
              > I can group the 20th century
              > physics scientists in 3 generations;
              > The first generation, including Einstein,
              > were mostly beliving in Spinoza's God,
              > the God who has created the universe with great
              > enthusiasm and hope but turned down and depressed
              > by the HUMANITY working with evil and then God
              > left everything uncontrolled, turned down the
              > humans...
              > Except of course, few names like Bohr who were
              > really religious
              > from the first generation.
              >
              > The second generation of scientists including R.
              > Feynman,
              > were mostly pure atheists, no religion - no God
              > type.
              > They who understood the views and visions of the
              > first
              > generation and improved the theories of first
              > generations.
              > They did not change, but understood and improved
              > them.
              > The second generation were so successfull
              > understanding
              > and solving the problems and questions left by the
              > first
              > generations. But, they produced very heavy questions
              > and paradoxes to the next generations.
              > They left extremely complex hypothesis and
              > ungraspable
              > number of dimensions together with imaginary
              > solutions,
              > imaginary experiments, imaginary particles, forces
              > etc
              > to the next generation.
              >
              > And the third and last generation of scientists
              > probably including yourself, are somehow hit the
              > wall!
              > Meaning, rendered themselves unsucsesfull to
              > understand
              > even underlying fundamental principles.
              > Because the amount of complex and imaginary
              > information
              > left by 2nd generation is too big to grasp,
              > you never find time and energy to understand
              > the first generation's simpler and factual
              > fundementals.
              >
              > New scientists, feeling hopeless, carrying heavy
              > load,
              > under pressure of new economical systems, they
              > actually
              > transformed simple physical questions to
              > the searching of the meaning of life and of course
              > they can't find an answer... Their mind is really
              > mixed up.
              > Like the one who falls into ocean asks help from the
              > sharks,
              > they turned to God, because they can't understand a
              > damn thing, even they can perfectly calculate !
              >
              > Hiting the wall is a good example, because some of
              > 3rd generations
              > do not stop by hitting the wall once,
              > they want to hit again and again... Like religious
              > people
              > hits themselves to cry-walls or whatever.
              > For example; if one understand and agrees with
              > the theory of General Relativity, should not run
              > after
              > an imaginary particle called "graviton".
              > Could imagine it, could use it in a mathematical
              > model
              > or whatever, but should not get crazy to find it !
              > If one spend his/her life searching for a "real"
              > graviton
              > means three things:
              > 1- GR is wrong.
              > 2- He/she understood GR but does not agree.
              > 3- He/she agree with GR but does not understand.
              >
              > 1st and 2nd options are same thing, if GR is wrong
              > or he/she does not agree, before searching the
              > graviton,
              > he/she must provide a better and correct
              > explanation,
              > a new theory !!!!! Then can search for the graviton
              > to prove the new theory. They do not provide a new
              > theory, they agree with GR, but they still look for
              > graviton, leaves only one option: They don't
              > understand GR!
              > Although they calculate everything but everything
              > like a magician.
              >
              > This is a generic problem in science with the 3rd
              > generation.
              > This problem is abundant in Quantum physics, not
              > only GR.
              > They simply do not understand fundemental idea of
              > theories.
              > They know formulas and calculations like a hell.
              > But doesn't know what formulas or calculations
              > really means!
              > Either they think theories represent the reality
              > or they think reality is result of calculations.
              >
              > Apperently you think you are a damn good scientist,
              > but your fate is already drawn! 3rd generation is
              > hopeless.
              > Believe in God or not, there is no solution.
              > About 20 or more years, you'll strugle with
              > equations
              > without understanding the real meaning behind.
              > It is 4th may be 5th generations in end of 21st
              > century
              > who will make "some" acheivements, real
              > acheivements...
              > With the help of self destruction or weakness
              > of religions as the war between them intensifying in
              > these years.
              >
              > Of course I'm not sure, I'm not a fortune teller
              > neither magican!
              > But Asimov says; if you have enough
              > information about the past, you can predict the
              > future...
              > You just need to see the patterns of evolution.
              >
              > Cem
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "cnapmak86"
              > <cnapmak86@...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > OHHH! now you i like, thank you for a certain
              > clarity and addition
              > to
              > > points i missed, but do not bad mouth my
              > capability in science.
              > >
              > > if you read the reply i posted, some things may
              > become clearer.
              > (that
              > > is if you feel i have not provided an adequate
              > response)
              > >
              > > i am still very oposed to the idea that the best
              > scientist are
              > > athiest, as most of the best seem to be Jews by
              > birth. not to
              > mension
              > > that sertain studies are done in secrecy. so it
              > just seems like a
              > > means to dignify atheism as the way of genius.
              > >
              > > thank you for the welcome, still wont call myself
              > an agnostic.
              > > anyway its a pleasure.
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


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            • a a
              Lord damien in response to your email let me say: My name is Richard and I m seeking an intellectual challenge to Christianity from Atheist,Pantheist,
              Message 6 of 27 , Sep 25, 2006
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                Lord damien in response to your email let me say:


                My name is Richard and I'm seeking an intellectual
                challenge to
                Christianity from Atheist,Pantheist, Agnostic, and
                anyone else open
                for fair discussion.

                Being as I don't publically debate(yet) I am looking
                for a lions
                den in which I am able to challenge my faith in the
                message of
                Christ.

                I noticed the web sites name so this seemed like a
                good site to
                seek a challenge. I don't want the conversation to
                regress into ad
                homenim attacks. I just want an intellectual dialouge
                on the most
                important topic in human history-God. Anyone up for
                the discussion?
                Thank you.
                Grace and Peace.


                --- lord damien <lord_damien2002@...> wrote:

                > changing your name isnt going to achieve anything.
                > Im really sorry but it simply isnt possible to have
                > an intellectual discussion about christianity,
                > because christianinty is a total and utter load of
                > stupidity. it is possible to intellectually discuss
                > christianities history or social impact, but i doubt
                > that is what you mean is it.
                >
                > praesto12 <Praesto12@...> wrote:
                > Well I hope all of you guys are doing well.
                >
                > My name is Richard and I'm seeking an intellectual
                > challenge to
                > Christianity from Atheist,Pantheist,Agnostic, and
                > anyone else open
                > for fair discussion.
                >
                > Being as I don't publically debate(yet) I am looking
                > for a lions
                > den in which I am able to challenge my faith in the
                > message of
                > Christ.
                >
                > I noticed the web sites name so this seemed like a
                > good site to
                > seek a challenge. I don't want the conversation to
                > regress into ad
                > homenim attacks. I just want an intellectual
                > dialouge on the most
                > important topic in human history-God. Anyone up for
                > the discussion?
                > Thank you.
                > Grace and Peace.
                >
                > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "kensharp81"
                >
                > <kensharp81@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > While I don't entirely subscribe to LD's caustic
                > tone, I agree
                > with
                > > him. From my experience this group seems to be
                > open enough to
                > > engage "contrary" perspectives.
                > >
                > > I never considered this to be an "atheist group".
                > "Death to
                > > religion", doesn't necessarily entail "death to
                > god(s)". I'm not
                > a
                > > theist myself. However, that was the conclusion
                > that I made
                > judging
                > > from the title...
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, lord
                > damien
                > > <lord_damien2002@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > yeah dont worry mate - you have managed to find
                > an athiest group
                > > where you will be able to blabber away about your
                > theocracy all
                > day.
                > > (presumably between your little prayer sessions to
                > allah). so go
                > for
                > > it - hell - you will even get replies lol
                > > >
                > > > devasma <devasma@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > i look forward to a comment and will be very
                > disapointed if
                > the
                > > > > organisers deside this to be too ofensive or,
                > god forbid,
                > > thought
                > > > > provoking.
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > > Don't worry, it is neither.
                > > >
                > > > devas
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ---------------------------------
                > > > Copy addresses and emails from any email account
                > to Yahoo!
                > Mail -
                > > quick, easy and free. Do it now...
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > removed]
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning
                > in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > removed]
                >
                >


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              • lord damien
                Richard - you are full of shit. you are a brainwashed cultist and you want to preach not discuss. your cultism isnt worth serious consideration. stop wasting
                Message 7 of 27 , Sep 26, 2006
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                  Richard - you are full of shit. you are a brainwashed cultist and you want to preach not discuss. your cultism isnt worth serious consideration. stop wasting our time

                  a a <Praesto12@...> wrote: Lord damien in response to your email let me say:

                  My name is Richard and I'm seeking an intellectual
                  challenge to
                  Christianity from Atheist,Pantheist, Agnostic, and
                  anyone else open
                  for fair discussion.

                  Being as I don't publically debate(yet) I am looking
                  for a lions
                  den in which I am able to challenge my faith in the
                  message of
                  Christ.

                  I noticed the web sites name so this seemed like a
                  good site to
                  seek a challenge. I don't want the conversation to
                  regress into ad
                  homenim attacks. I just want an intellectual dialouge
                  on the most
                  important topic in human history-God. Anyone up for
                  the discussion?
                  Thank you.
                  Grace and Peace.

                  --- lord damien <lord_damien2002@...> wrote:

                  > changing your name isnt going to achieve anything.
                  > Im really sorry but it simply isnt possible to have
                  > an intellectual discussion about christianity,
                  > because christianinty is a total and utter load of
                  > stupidity. it is possible to intellectually discuss
                  > christianities history or social impact, but i doubt
                  > that is what you mean is it.
                  >
                  > praesto12 <Praesto12@...> wrote:
                  > Well I hope all of you guys are doing well.
                  >
                  > My name is Richard and I'm seeking an intellectual
                  > challenge to
                  > Christianity from Atheist,Pantheist,Agnostic, and
                  > anyone else open
                  > for fair discussion.
                  >
                  > Being as I don't publically debate(yet) I am looking
                  > for a lions
                  > den in which I am able to challenge my faith in the
                  > message of
                  > Christ.
                  >
                  > I noticed the web sites name so this seemed like a
                  > good site to
                  > seek a challenge. I don't want the conversation to
                  > regress into ad
                  > homenim attacks. I just want an intellectual
                  > dialouge on the most
                  > important topic in human history-God. Anyone up for
                  > the discussion?
                  > Thank you.
                  > Grace and Peace.
                  >
                  > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "kensharp81"
                  >
                  > <kensharp81@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > While I don't entirely subscribe to LD's caustic
                  > tone, I agree
                  > with
                  > > him. From my experience this group seems to be
                  > open enough to
                  > > engage "contrary" perspectives.
                  > >
                  > > I never considered this to be an "atheist group".
                  > "Death to
                  > > religion", doesn't necessarily entail "death to
                  > god(s)". I'm not
                  > a
                  > > theist myself. However, that was the conclusion
                  > that I made
                  > judging
                  > > from the title...
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, lord
                  > damien
                  > > <lord_damien2002@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > yeah dont worry mate - you have managed to find
                  > an athiest group
                  > > where you will be able to blabber away about your
                  > theocracy all
                  > day.
                  > > (presumably between your little prayer sessions to
                  > allah). so go
                  > for
                  > > it - hell - you will even get replies lol
                  > > >
                  > > > devasma <devasma@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > i look forward to a comment and will be very
                  > disapointed if
                  > the
                  > > > > organisers deside this to be too ofensive or,
                  > god forbid,
                  > > thought
                  > > > > provoking.
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Don't worry, it is neither.
                  > > >
                  > > > devas
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > > Copy addresses and emails from any email account
                  > to Yahoo!
                  > Mail -
                  > > quick, easy and free. Do it now...
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning
                  > in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >

                  __________________________________________________
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                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  http://mail.yahoo.com





                  ---------------------------------
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • bestonnet_00
                  ... That applies to you just as well. ... That also applies to you as well. ... But it all agrees with reality (and a great many of those imaginary particles
                  Message 8 of 27 , Sep 26, 2006
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                    --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "Lovejoe" <konusan1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > As far as you do not grasp scientific philosophies
                    > and know the history of the area that you love to work,
                    > you cannot be a damn good complete scientist.

                    That applies to you just as well.

                    > It's not wise to come into deathtoreligion group and
                    > promote your views of god or religious science,
                    > thinking may be that deathtoreligion'ers are absent of science...

                    That also applies to you as well.

                    > They left extremely complex hypothesis and ungraspable
                    > number of dimensions together with imaginary solutions,
                    > imaginary experiments, imaginary particles, forces etc
                    > to the next generation.

                    But it all agrees with reality (and a great many of those imaginary
                    particles have been detected).

                    > Hiting the wall is a good example, because some of 3rd generations
                    > do not stop by hitting the wall once,
                    > they want to hit again and again... Like religious people
                    > hits themselves to cry-walls or whatever.
                    > For example; if one understand and agrees with
                    > the theory of General Relativity, should not run after
                    > an imaginary particle called "graviton".

                    Why not? Quantum theory would require that such a thing exist and if
                    we are to unify Quantum Mechanics with General Relativity we're
                    probably going to have to have a graviton.

                    > Could imagine it, could use it in a mathematical model
                    > or whatever, but should not get crazy to find it !
                    > If one spend his/her life searching for a "real" graviton
                    > means three things:
                    > 1- GR is wrong.
                    > 2- He/she understood GR but does not agree.
                    > 3- He/she agree with GR but does not understand.

                    Of course General Relativity is wrong. But then again, so is almost
                    everything we know about the universe.

                    But that doesn't mean it isn't a very good approximation to how the
                    universe really works (and it is a useful theory despite being almost
                    certainly wrong).
                  • bestonnet_00
                    I ve been in enough debates with religious people to realise that they usually don t get anywhere (other than a massive flame war). If you re interested I d
                    Message 9 of 27 , Sep 26, 2006
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                      I've been in enough debates with religious people to realise that they
                      usually don't get anywhere (other than a massive flame war).

                      If you're interested I'd suggest you have a look at the following web
                      sites.
                      http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ (bible with all the bad stuff
                      highlighted)
                      http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/index.html (good articles on
                      atheism, the problems of theism along with some rather funny articles)
                      http://www.nobeliefs.com/ (good articles, just ignore the political
                      bullshit)
                      http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3991/OpenMinds.html (certainly
                      an interesting web site, more emphasis on the fact that it isn't just
                      atheism and Christianity (not sure what the webmaster believes though))
                      http://www.christianitymeme.org/ (explains how a lot of atheists think
                      of religion)
                      http://web.archive.org/web/20021012061936/http://www.geocities.com/iconoclastes.geo/
                      (if Yahell doesn't cut it off. Has history of Christianity that the
                      churches don't usually mention, not on the web anymore but accessable
                      with the Wayback machine)
                      http://www.alternet.org/story/36195 (Why Religion Must End --- I'll
                      let you figure out what that might be)
                      http://www.infidels.org/ (pretty much the source for articles on
                      atheism and also the best place to look for the arguments made for
                      atheism and against theism)

                      If you want to understand us and our arguments better looking at some
                      of those links would be a good start.

                      --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "praesto12" <Praesto12@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Well I hope all of you guys are doing well.
                      >
                      > My name is Richard and I'm seeking an intellectual challenge to
                      > Christianity from Atheist,Pantheist,Agnostic, and anyone else open
                      > for fair discussion.
                      >
                      > Being as I don't publically debate(yet) I am looking for a lions
                      > den in which I am able to challenge my faith in the message of
                      > Christ.
                      >
                      > I noticed the web sites name so this seemed like a good site to
                      > seek a challenge. I don't want the conversation to regress into ad
                      > homenim attacks. I just want an intellectual dialouge on the most
                      > important topic in human history-God. Anyone up for the discussion?
                      > Thank you.
                      > Grace and Peace.
                    • Lovejoe
                      I am joking with you because you think you are smart, you can challenge with all non-believers, you have the enlightment, you are on the right track, you
                      Message 10 of 27 , Sep 26, 2006
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                        I am "joking" with you because you "think" you are smart,
                        you can challenge with all non-believers,
                        you have the enlightment, you are on the right track,
                        you are the one... moreover you think you have spiritualy strong!
                        Stereotype of unsatisfactory Christians
                        (or any other religious person)...

                        And you can not stand or tolerate my tease, because the "thing"
                        I joke about is your master choice and reason of existence...

                        We all trying to find our ways and meanings, while you
                        found a stone to stand on it and you think its the only way
                        and all the meaning of life and you think we all are crazy
                        not to stick to your stone. You can generate thousands
                        of reasons and excuses to prove your choice of standing
                        on that stone is the best and most thing a human can acheive
                        and searching for another way is complete nonsense...
                        If anyone pees to your stone, you get crazy! Because its
                        the whole meaning and center of your life! A stone
                        that someone throw away 2K years ago...
                        Actually it makes you too fragile.

                        Christ is something you learned, you liked and you valued
                        and took extremely serious. You took too serious that you think
                        you have to prove every other belief or unbelief is wrong!
                        To satisfy yourself as you were extremely correct to choose Christ...
                        If you cant challenge and prove once more that you are right,
                        you'll never sleep easy.
                        I have no such problem, to prove or unprove anything to you!!!

                        When you have a pain, would you try to convince me that
                        your pain is real, your pain is important,
                        your pain must be taken into care...
                        I'm not a doctor, but I can tell you to remove
                        the pin from your butt and your pain will be over.
                        And I don't have any pain like yours.
                        Why shall I bother myself with your pin or pain ?
                        But you want to bother me, because you think you can share
                        your pain with me and I can't resist having your pain,
                        you want to see more and more people around you sharing the
                        same pain! You'll be happy then..
                        Because the pin and its pain is so important to you,
                        so real, your pain and the pin became your reason of existence.

                        How can I keep myself from joking when I see very similar
                        situations ?

                        One day, my 6 years old, after coming from the school,
                        started telling us "he loves Jesus" and
                        asking "aren't we all love Jesus ?"
                        We immediately understood what was going on in the school,
                        his brain wash by the community is started...
                        But we knew this will happen and we have strategies already.
                        We did not react strongly, which would be the worst mistake.
                        We asked questions like we have no idea what he is talking about...
                        Do you know Jesus? Have you met with him? What is your
                        reason to love him? Was he good man? What he did for your good?
                        Son is confused.
                        To love someone we must know him/her by heart!
                        He should learn reality and factuality.
                        Do you love mother? Do you have a reason?
                        Do you love your grand-grand pa? He says yes too,
                        but later realized he never saw grand-grand-pa
                        and he could only love him, if we tell impressively
                        nice stories about him !
                        At 6 years, he can be convinced to anything by adults.
                        And if and once he is convinced its near to impossible
                        to remove it in his adelosance. He will start seeking
                        networks and ateist groups to challenge to satisfy himself!

                        We try to convince him asking questions, all kind of questions
                        and not to believe "any" imposed answer immediately.
                        If he gets tired to ask questions then he will be a believer
                        of one or another stream of loosers.
                        If his heart does not get tired by pumping, his brains
                        should not give up asking questions to realize things.

                        It's our strugle to protect his brain from washes
                        to make his way easier to be a free minded man who
                        can evaluate everything objectively and rationally.
                        At the end, if he chooses to believe in a religion,
                        it will be more concious and self willing at least...

                        Actually, you may not know the meaning of word "mature".
                        You think if someone is teasing with your "most important
                        and most valuable" beliefs and thoughts
                        then he/she must be immature. You threat them
                        by calling them "immature" to protect your fragile feelings.

                        Can you imagine that depending on the situation and
                        circumstences being a mature or immature have different
                        meanings and values, sometime immaturity could be seen good,
                        like being a kid, innocent, fun and restless...

                        For example, my dad tells, in his village,
                        the whole population in that village were
                        threwing away the red tomatoes, directly into trash
                        becuase they see red tomatoes not mature but rotten.
                        They use sour green tomatoes as fruit,
                        when it turns into red they are thrown.
                        Who is right ? Us who eat red tomatoes thinking mature
                        or my dad's villagers ????
                        Who's acceptance or view is most valuable?
                        Villager's want to challenge with us and with you,
                        are you ready ????

                        I'll give you real life examples, to realize what
                        is really mature, what is not:
                        If one thinks he is completely right and know everything
                        and thinks others that do not share his thought or believes
                        are wrong de-facto, is actually called "immature",
                        like my very own kid.
                        He is 6 years old and he thinks
                        he knows everything better than me or mother !
                        He calls for challenge!
                        At 6 yrs. He calls challenge to prove us wrong!
                        For example he wanted to watch 2 movies
                        in saturday, and we say 1 movie is enough,
                        you must do some "other" activities.
                        And he shouts "you do not know a damn thing,
                        I know better than you, kids can watch even 3 movies
                        in saturdays, there is enough time!"
                        And when we do not agree with him and tease his
                        idea, he gets upset, this is why we call him "KID".
                        Because he "believes" the "time" is important to select what to do,
                        not "diversity and improving himself in other aspects" !
                        He can't see that, he is damn right in his immature world!

                        And sometimes, as he grow up, he learns to be a modest,
                        he sees that there are other ideas and ways and logics
                        and values and wills and "criterias" etc in the world and
                        nothing is entirely correct or wrong,
                        and his minds getting mature, he makes jokes, he tease our
                        stupidities and nonsense ideas and we think
                        he is "maturing" at age 6...
                        When he will be able to laugh at himself, his beliefs,
                        and his nonsenses, then he will be considered as "mature".

                        Actually, thinking themselves as "the one"
                        is kind of stereotype in believers, as we
                        closely see in past couple of days here:
                        Two new guys entered to group and
                        the first one started his writing declaring that:
                        "I am a damn good scientist ... and believer"
                        the next, I mean you, declared kind of challenge
                        "I can challenge with all of you here on Christianizm
                        ... if you do not insult (tease) my feelings!"

                        You see the similarities?

                        Can you see what we are really opposing and fighting against ?

                        Religion is only one aspect or outcome of such
                        washed and programmed brains that learned to cheat their own
                        self-satisfaction, believing that
                        their master choice is correct...

                        Chris or Cross or funny days!

                        Cem






                        --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, a a <Praesto12@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Well, I suppose I shouldn't respond to your tone but
                        > try to specifically tackle what may be going on in
                        > your mind.
                        > First let me say that if you have serious
                        > questions,serious ideas and you want to intellectually
                        > challenge anything(logically) about the Christian
                        > message then I'm up for it.
                        > Secondly, if you're immature and just want to complain
                        > or bitch then I want no part of it. I want you to pose
                        > serious questions or ideas you have about God, and if
                        > you can then I will seriously "hear" you and try to
                        > adquately respond.
                        > Show respect and I will give respect.
                        > Show thought and I will give thought. That's really
                        > all I want,seriously.
                        >
                        > Okay, so there seemed to be a couple basic questions
                        > you had which would be "Why am I Christian instead of
                        > Jewish," "Why am I not muslim," and "What is the role
                        > of cultural influence in the religion one adheres to,
                        > and if I were born in a different culture would I be a
                        > different religion just because of my
                        > culture-contrasting cultural influence to Free will
                        > and autonomy of thought." If this is a fair assesment
                        > of what you're asking then I will respond.
                        >
                        > First, Yes, absolutely Christ was a Jew-he is their
                        > Christ as well. He was one of the purposes why the
                        > Jews were chosen-to give the messiah-something
                        > prophecied hundreds of years before Christ was
                        > born,something you may want to look in to. So
                        > objectively and logically I think the prophecies of
                        > the Old testament, the alignment of the Christ to
                        > these prophecies, the fullfillment of the reality of
                        > the Christ as the manifested word of God-that being
                        > the Old testament I think that it is fair to "chose"
                        > Christ over just the Jewish Tradition. However the
                        > True definition of Jew is Praise, the word means
                        > Praise and honestly I'm simply adopted into the family
                        > of God as first manifested to the Jews. There
                        > shouldn't really be a huge difference between Jews and
                        > Christians in all truth, we are in the same family.
                        > Most of the difference which may be presented is a
                        > result of Jewish Pride or of "Christian" ignorance.
                        > The Old testament and the New are in compliation to
                        > one another, we are all(if honest) in this developing
                        > kingdom of God. I can discuss that further if you'd
                        > like. Personally however I'd have to say that I enjoy
                        > gospel music and have read too much of Christ's
                        > message to not be Christian, but that's personal
                        > opinion, not objective fact at that point.
                        >
                        > Secondly, why am I not Muslim? Easy, Compare the
                        > message,impact,reality and nature of Jesus the Christ
                        > and of Muhammed and you will see that Christ is who he
                        > says he is, muhammed is not.Compare them.
                        >
                        > Lastly, if I were born in a muslim country would I be
                        > muslim, well I think that's not really the question
                        > persay but rather it's a question of "is one's culture
                        > the sole contributor to one's religion" and my answer
                        > is no. Culture influences us deeply, obviously but
                        > there is too much to the contrary to reduce religious
                        > choice to cultural thought. I'm an example of that and
                        > probably millions of people are what they are because
                        > of their thinking not soley because of their culture.
                        > If you think this is impossible then what about you,
                        > are you just the result of culture or are you making a
                        > free choice?
                        > If you are the result of your culture then would you
                        > consider thinking outside of your culture, and if you
                        > are not the result of your culture then wouldn't it be
                        > possible for others to not be the result of their
                        > culture?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > >
                        > > Start telling me why you are not Jew but
                        > > Christ ?
                        > > Jesus was born as Jew and his original religion was
                        > > Jew too
                        > > and he did not live enough to create or invoke
                        > > another religion. He was still Jew when he died !!!!
                        > > So who are Christians really ?
                        > > Some guys after him transformed Jew into a new
                        > > religion,
                        > > by writing slightly different stories.
                        > > And you believe in them, but not in Jews.
                        > > What is the difference between Jew and Christianism?
                        > >
                        > > What Christians denounced or added to Jew to
                        > > transform
                        > > it to Christianism ?
                        > > And continue telling us what is your sub-religion?
                        > > Protestant, Orthodox or Catholic ?
                        > > What is your sub-church?
                        > > Why you still haven't created your own personal
                        > > Church ???
                        > > And tell me why you are Christ, but not Muslim ?
                        > > And tell me that its your very own choice !
                        > > And tell me that if you were born in Saudi Arabia or
                        > > Iran
                        > > you would still choose the Christ !!!!!!
                        > > And make us laugh.
                        > >
                        > > Cem
                        > >
                        > > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "praesto12"
                        > > <Praesto12@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Well I hope all of you guys are doing well.
                        > > >
                        > > > My name is Richard and I'm seeking an intellectual
                        > > challenge to
                        > > > Christianity from Atheist,Pantheist,Agnostic, and
                        > > anyone else open
                        > > > for fair discussion.
                        > > >
                        > > > Being as I don't publically debate(yet) I am
                        > > looking for a lions
                        > > > den in which I am able to challenge my faith in
                        > > the message of
                        > > > Christ.
                        > > >
                        > > > I noticed the web sites name so this seemed like a
                        > > good site to
                        > > > seek a challenge. I don't want the conversation to
                        > > regress into ad
                        > > > homenim attacks. I just want an intellectual
                        > > dialouge on the most
                        > > > important topic in human history-God. Anyone up
                        > > for the discussion?
                        > > > Thank you.
                        > > > Grace and Peace.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com,
                        > > "kensharp81"
                        > > > <kensharp81@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > While I don't entirely subscribe to LD's caustic
                        > > tone, I agree
                        > > > with
                        > > > > him. From my experience this group seems to be
                        > > open enough to
                        > > > > engage "contrary" perspectives.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I never considered this to be an "atheist
                        > > group". "Death to
                        > > > > religion", doesn't necessarily entail "death to
                        > > god(s)". I'm not
                        > > > a
                        > > > > theist myself. However, that was the conclusion
                        > > that I made
                        > > > judging
                        > > > > from the title...
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, lord
                        > > damien
                        > > > > <lord_damien2002@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > yeah dont worry mate - you have managed to
                        > > find an athiest
                        > > group
                        > > > > where you will be able to blabber away about
                        > > your theocracy all
                        > > > day.
                        > > > > (presumably between your little prayer sessions
                        > > to allah). so go
                        > > > for
                        > > > > it - hell - you will even get replies lol
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > devasma <devasma@> wrote:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > i look forward to a comment and will be very
                        > > disapointed if
                        > > > the
                        > > > > > > organisers deside this to be too ofensive
                        > > or, god forbid,
                        > > > > thought
                        > > > > > > provoking.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Don't worry, it is neither.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > devas
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > ---------------------------------
                        > > > > > Copy addresses and emails from any email
                        > > account to Yahoo!
                        > > > Mail -
                        > > > > quick, easy and free. Do it now...
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > > removed]
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ---------------------------------
                        > > Copy addresses and emails from any email account to
                        > > Yahoo! Mail - quick, easy and free. Do it now...
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > > removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________
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                        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        > http://mail.yahoo.com
                        >
                      • Lovejoe
                        ... if ... Are you trying to say, graviton will reveal itself if we are to unify QM and GR ? :-) I think I disturbed your dreams and hopes on science. Sorry
                        Message 11 of 27 , Sep 26, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, bestonnet_00 <no_reply@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Why not? Quantum theory would require that such a thing exist and
                          if
                          > we are to unify Quantum Mechanics with General Relativity we're
                          > probably going to have to have a graviton.

                          Are you trying to say, graviton will reveal itself
                          if we are to unify QM and GR ? :-)

                          I think I disturbed your dreams and hopes on science.
                          Sorry but, if you know, Quantum theory
                          has two established parts, electrodynamics and chromodynamics
                          and none of them require graviton for the moment!

                          However, there is another improving and impressive study
                          called Quantum Field theory which deals with all particles
                          including hypothetical graviton and virtual ones,
                          and there are tries to incorporate gravity into
                          overall Quantum field theory using mathematics but
                          without any evidence of graviton.
                          Superstring theory explains and incorporates
                          gravity much better and healtier than the QFT.

                          It looks like a misarable quest,
                          because they can't even prove that gravity is a generated
                          ordinary force like electro, magnetic or nuclear forces,
                          that it requires a force carying particle...
                          Do not forget that anything which is in free fall,
                          while obviously is accelerating due to gravitation
                          has "no" forces acting on it. Magic?

                          Of course only GR explains how and why it accelerates
                          without "any" force acting on it.
                          But some obviously do not and cannot understand even if
                          they calculate most complex quantum equations in mind...

                          Therefore GR is the closest call to reality like QM,
                          but graviton idea of QFT is nowhere near.

                          You sound like, you put all your hopes into graviton
                          and Quantum theory, in place of God... :-)


                          Cem
                        • Dr. Newton Joseph
                          ... From: a a To: Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [Death To Religion] Re:
                          Message 12 of 27 , Sep 26, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "a a" <Praesto12@...>
                            To: <deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 8:16 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Death To Religion] Re: Hello.

                            I CAN RECOGNIZE BRAINWASHING WHEN I READ IT
                            New10




                            > Well, I suppose I shouldn't respond to your tone but
                            > try to specifically tackle what may be going on in
                            > your mind.
                            > First let me say that if you have serious
                            > questions,serious ideas and you want to intellectually
                            > challenge anything(logically) about the Christian
                            > message then I'm up for it.
                            > Secondly, if you're immature and just want to complain
                            > or bitch then I want no part of it. I want you to pose
                            > serious questions or ideas you have about God, and if
                            > you can then I will seriously "hear" you and try to
                            > adquately respond.
                            > Show respect and I will give respect.
                            > Show thought and I will give thought. That's really
                            > all I want,seriously.
                            >
                            > Okay, so there seemed to be a couple basic questions
                            > you had which would be "Why am I Christian instead of
                            > Jewish," "Why am I not muslim," and "What is the role
                            > of cultural influence in the religion one adheres to,
                            > and if I were born in a different culture would I be a
                            > different religion just because of my
                            > culture-contrasting cultural influence to Free will
                            > and autonomy of thought." If this is a fair assesment
                            > of what you're asking then I will respond.
                            >
                            > First, Yes, absolutely Christ was a Jew-he is their
                            > Christ as well. He was one of the purposes why the
                            > Jews were chosen-to give the messiah-something
                            > prophecied hundreds of years before Christ was
                            > born,something you may want to look in to. So
                            > objectively and logically I think the prophecies of
                            > the Old testament, the alignment of the Christ to
                            > these prophecies, the fullfillment of the reality of
                            > the Christ as the manifested word of God-that being
                            > the Old testament I think that it is fair to "chose"
                            > Christ over just the Jewish Tradition. However the
                            > True definition of Jew is Praise, the word means
                            > Praise and honestly I'm simply adopted into the family
                            > of God as first manifested to the Jews. There
                            > shouldn't really be a huge difference between Jews and
                            > Christians in all truth, we are in the same family.
                            > Most of the difference which may be presented is a
                            > result of Jewish Pride or of "Christian" ignorance.
                            > The Old testament and the New are in compliation to
                            > one another, we are all(if honest) in this developing
                            > kingdom of God. I can discuss that further if you'd
                            > like. Personally however I'd have to say that I enjoy
                            > gospel music and have read too much of Christ's
                            > message to not be Christian, but that's personal
                            > opinion, not objective fact at that point.
                            >
                            > Secondly, why am I not Muslim? Easy, Compare the
                            > message,impact,reality and nature of Jesus the Christ
                            > and of Muhammed and you will see that Christ is who he
                            > says he is, muhammed is not.Compare them.
                            >
                            > Lastly, if I were born in a muslim country would I be
                            > muslim, well I think that's not really the question
                            > persay but rather it's a question of "is one's culture
                            > the sole contributor to one's religion" and my answer
                            > is no. Culture influences us deeply, obviously but
                            > there is too much to the contrary to reduce religious
                            > choice to cultural thought. I'm an example of that and
                            > probably millions of people are what they are because
                            > of their thinking not soley because of their culture.
                            > If you think this is impossible then what about you,
                            > are you just the result of culture or are you making a
                            > free choice?
                            > If you are the result of your culture then would you
                            > consider thinking outside of your culture, and if you
                            > are not the result of your culture then wouldn't it be
                            > possible for others to not be the result of their
                            > culture?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >>
                            >> Start telling me why you are not Jew but
                            >> Christ ?
                            >> Jesus was born as Jew and his original religion was
                            >> Jew too
                            >> and he did not live enough to create or invoke
                            >> another religion. He was still Jew when he died !!!!
                            >> So who are Christians really ?
                            >> Some guys after him transformed Jew into a new
                            >> religion,
                            >> by writing slightly different stories.
                            >> And you believe in them, but not in Jews.
                            >> What is the difference between Jew and Christianism?
                            >>
                            >> What Christians denounced or added to Jew to
                            >> transform
                            >> it to Christianism ?
                            >> And continue telling us what is your sub-religion?
                            >> Protestant, Orthodox or Catholic ?
                            >> What is your sub-church?
                            >> Why you still haven't created your own personal
                            >> Church ???
                            >> And tell me why you are Christ, but not Muslim ?
                            >> And tell me that its your very own choice !
                            >> And tell me that if you were born in Saudi Arabia or
                            >> Iran
                            >> you would still choose the Christ !!!!!!
                            >> And make us laugh.
                            >>
                            >> Cem
                            >>
                            >> --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "praesto12"
                            >> <Praesto12@...>
                            >> wrote:
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> > Well I hope all of you guys are doing well.
                            >> >
                            >> > My name is Richard and I'm seeking an intellectual
                            >> challenge to
                            >> > Christianity from Atheist,Pantheist,Agnostic, and
                            >> anyone else open
                            >> > for fair discussion.
                            >> >
                            >> > Being as I don't publically debate(yet) I am
                            >> looking for a lions
                            >> > den in which I am able to challenge my faith in
                            >> the message of
                            >> > Christ.
                            >> >
                            >> > I noticed the web sites name so this seemed like a
                            >> good site to
                            >> > seek a challenge. I don't want the conversation to
                            >> regress into ad
                            >> > homenim attacks. I just want an intellectual
                            >> dialouge on the most
                            >> > important topic in human history-God. Anyone up
                            >> for the discussion?
                            >> > Thank you.
                            >> > Grace and Peace.
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com,
                            >> "kensharp81"
                            >> > <kensharp81@> wrote:
                            >> > >
                            >> > > While I don't entirely subscribe to LD's caustic
                            >> tone, I agree
                            >> > with
                            >> > > him. From my experience this group seems to be
                            >> open enough to
                            >> > > engage "contrary" perspectives.
                            >> > >
                            >> > > I never considered this to be an "atheist
                            >> group". "Death to
                            >> > > religion", doesn't necessarily entail "death to
                            >> god(s)". I'm not
                            >> > a
                            >> > > theist myself. However, that was the conclusion
                            >> that I made
                            >> > judging
                            >> > > from the title...
                            >> > >
                            >> > >
                            >> > > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, lord
                            >> damien
                            >> > > <lord_damien2002@> wrote:
                            >> > > >
                            >> > > > yeah dont worry mate - you have managed to
                            >> find an athiest
                            >> group
                            >> > > where you will be able to blabber away about
                            >> your theocracy all
                            >> > day.
                            >> > > (presumably between your little prayer sessions
                            >> to allah). so go
                            >> > for
                            >> > > it - hell - you will even get replies lol
                            >> > > >
                            >> > > > devasma <devasma@> wrote:
                            >> > > > >
                            >> > > > > i look forward to a comment and will be very
                            >> disapointed if
                            >> > the
                            >> > > > > organisers deside this to be too ofensive
                            >> or, god forbid,
                            >> > > thought
                            >> > > > > provoking.
                            >> > > > >
                            >> > > >
                            >> > > > Don't worry, it is neither.
                            >> > > >
                            >> > > > devas
                            >> > > >
                            >> > > >
                            >> > > >
                            >> > > >
                            >> > > >
                            >> > > >
                            >> > > > ---------------------------------
                            >> > > > Copy addresses and emails from any email
                            >> account to Yahoo!
                            >> > Mail -
                            >> > > quick, easy and free. Do it now...
                            >> > > >
                            >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            >> removed]
                            >> > > >
                            >> > >
                            >> >
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> ---------------------------------
                            >> Copy addresses and emails from any email account to
                            >> Yahoo! Mail - quick, easy and free. Do it now...
                            >>
                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            >> removed]
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            > __________________________________________________
                            > Do You Yahoo!?
                            > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                            > http://mail.yahoo.com
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                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Dr. Newton Joseph
                            ... From: bestonnet_00 To: Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:27 AM Subject: [Death To
                            Message 13 of 27 , Sep 26, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "bestonnet_00" <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                              To: <deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:27 AM
                              Subject: [Death To Religion] Re: Hello.

                              Being as I don't publically debate(yet) I am looking for a lions
                              > den in which I am able to challenge my faith in the message of
                              > Christ.

                              What you call faith is really a mental disorder learned since infancy. I
                              find it strange that you cannot see Christianity as an ignorant
                              superstition. Nevertheless, this is what brainwashing can do

                              New10
                            • bestonnet_00
                              ... Quantum gravity is likely to have such a particle (and the standard model which describes everything except gravity has been very successful). ... Not
                              Message 14 of 27 , Sep 29, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "Lovejoe" <konusan1@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, bestonnet_00 <no_reply@>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Why not? Quantum theory would require that such a thing exist and
                                > > if we are to unify Quantum Mechanics with General Relativity we're
                                > > probably going to have to have a graviton.
                                >
                                > Are you trying to say, graviton will reveal itself
                                > if we are to unify QM and GR ? :-)

                                Quantum gravity is likely to have such a particle (and the standard
                                model which describes everything except gravity has been very successful).

                                > I think I disturbed your dreams and hopes on science.

                                Not really. For now I just see you as someone who doesn't understand
                                how science works.

                                > Sorry but, if you know, Quantum theory
                                > has two established parts, electrodynamics and chromodynamics
                                > and none of them require graviton for the moment!

                                Well they can't explain gravity so of course they don't have a graviton.

                                > However, there is another improving and impressive study
                                > called Quantum Field theory which deals with all particles
                                > including hypothetical graviton and virtual ones,
                                > and there are tries to incorporate gravity into
                                > overall Quantum field theory using mathematics but
                                > without any evidence of graviton.
                                > Superstring theory explains and incorporates
                                > gravity much better and healtier than the QFT.

                                Assuming superstring theory can even predict something we can test.

                                > It looks like a misarable quest,
                                > because they can't even prove that gravity is a generated
                                > ordinary force like electro, magnetic or nuclear forces,
                                > that it requires a force carying particle...

                                So?

                                > Do not forget that anything which is in free fall,
                                > while obviously is accelerating due to gravitation
                                > has "no" forces acting on it. Magic?

                                Or it has forces acting approximately equally on all parts of it.

                                > Of course only GR explains how and why it accelerates
                                > without "any" force acting on it.
                                > But some obviously do not and cannot understand even if
                                > they calculate most complex quantum equations in mind...

                                What?

                                > Therefore GR is the closest call to reality like QM,
                                > but graviton idea of QFT is nowhere near.

                                You haven't actually provided any good reason why GR should be closer
                                to reality than gravitons.

                                > You sound like, you put all your hopes into graviton
                                > and Quantum theory, in place of God... :-)

                                No. I simply understand that they are more useful than an imaginary
                                friend.
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