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Liars, Cheats and Thieves

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  • lee_roitberg
    As some of you are aware, I posted a factual comment on AudioCircle regarding some VSA pictures. The pictures showed the crossover of a $28,000 speaker. The
    Message 1 of 10 , May 9, 2009
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      As some of you are aware, I posted a factual comment on AudioCircle regarding some VSA pictures. The pictures showed the crossover of a $28,000 speaker. The "cost-no-object anniversary speaker uses very cheap components and hot glue for the crossover. I pointed this fact out and instead of comments regarding the speaker, people who I have never met, made some very unprofessional personal attacks toward me. This even included the CEO of the company!

      The ignorance of Albert Von Schweikert, Gavin Hadley, and others on the forum is just unbelievable and inexcusable.

      I have wasted enough precious time defending honest facts. I have told AudioCircle to go F*!K themselves. I have also realized that some members of the DAC are only interested in personal gain at the expense of audio and worst off, honesty. Scott, good luck pedaling your products.

      With this said, I am taking my leave from the DAC.

      Lee
    • Ka
      Lee, Sorry you are leaving DAC, please remember the original DAC audio meet has shifted from DAC to Audiocircle, and I believe you have confused about the two
      Message 2 of 10 , May 9, 2009
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        Lee,

        Sorry you are leaving DAC, please remember the original DAC audio meet has shifted from DAC to Audiocircle, and I believe you have confused about the two groups, I have crossed host once and we will never do that again. Audiocircle is supported by manufacturers, you have to take all the post with a grain a salt, nothing really is what it seems to be, it is just one big infomercial.
        On the other hand there are many genuine people in the DAC that have nothing to sell, and much to give. A lot of us members have greatly benefited.
        Please reconsider!

        Sincerely

        Ka

        On May 9, 2009, at 10:00 AM, lee_roitberg wrote:



        As some of you are aware, I posted a factual comment on AudioCircle regarding some VSA pictures. The pictures showed the crossover of a $28,000 speaker. The "cost-no-object anniversary speaker uses very cheap components and hot glue for the crossover. I pointed this fact out and instead of comments regarding the speaker, people who I have never met, made some very unprofessional personal attacks toward me. This even included the CEO of the company!

        The ignorance of Albert Von Schweikert, Gavin Hadley, and others on the forum is just unbelievable and inexcusable.

        I have wasted enough precious time defending honest facts. I have told AudioCircle to go F*!K themselves. I have also realized that some members of the DAC are only interested in personal gain at the expense of audio and worst off, honesty. Scott, good luck pedaling your products.

        With this said, I am taking my leave from the DAC.

        Lee


      • tomjoy@flash.net
        The messenger is always in peril.   Tom ... From: lee_roitberg Subject: [dallasaudioclub] Liars, Cheats and Thieves To:
        Message 3 of 10 , May 9, 2009
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          The messenger is always in peril.
           
          Tom

          --- On Sat, 5/9/09, lee_roitberg <lee_roitberg@...> wrote:
          From: lee_roitberg <lee_roitberg@...>
          Subject: [dallasaudioclub] Liars, Cheats and Thieves
          To: dallasaudioclub@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009, 10:00 AM

          As some of you are aware, I posted a factual comment on AudioCircle regarding some VSA pictures. The pictures showed the crossover of a $28,000 speaker. The "cost-no-object anniversary speaker uses very cheap components and hot glue for the crossover. I pointed this fact out and instead of comments regarding the speaker, people who I have never met, made some very unprofessional personal attacks toward me. This even included the CEO of the company!

          The ignorance of Albert Von Schweikert, Gavin Hadley, and others on the forum is just unbelievable and inexcusable.

          I have wasted enough precious time defending honest facts. I have told AudioCircle to go F*!K themselves. I have also realized that some members of the DAC are only interested in personal gain at the expense of audio and worst off, honesty. Scott, good luck pedaling your products.

          With this said, I am taking my leave from the DAC.

          Lee

        • Dennis
          Lee, It is a sad fact that Audio Forums, like any forum, are weak on civility and rife with anger and insults. Unfortunately at times moderators let their
          Message 4 of 10 , May 9, 2009
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            Lee,

            It is a sad fact that Audio Forums, like any forum, are weak on civility and rife with anger and insults. Unfortunately at times moderators let their commercial sponsors use the forum to attack any opinion that hints at a weakness in their product. The same could be said of Audio reviewers that never do a bad review of a company's product when that company spends a lot of money on ads in their magazine. Unfortunately there is a lot of hype in audio. It remains an industry where, in some cases, price has little to do with performance.

            The purpose of an Audio Club is to provide a convivial non commercial setting where enthusiast can socialize and have an opportunity to listen to Music and Audio Equipment.

            As a member I have always enjoyed the rare occasions I have attended events. As a manufacturer I appreciated DAC members that were kind enough to participate in listening evaluations to help improve beta products. I should add they did a wonderful job and were very helpful. Personally I don't consider audio club participation as a vehicle to sell products, but I don't have a problem with members that are dealers or manufacturers that do.

            I am not familiar with your experiences with the Audio circle forum. In fact I did not know the forum existed. I certainly am not familiar with any interaction with members that resulted in your decision to leave the DAC.

            I wish you success in finding the Magic in the Music, which is really what Audio is all about. There are many paths to reach the top of the mountain. Very few reach the summit. The joy is in the Journey,

            Best Regards,

            Dennis
          • oscar_in_fw
            Lee, I am sorry to hear that your issues with Von Schweikert would lead you to abandon future participation with DAC. The DAC is an informally run audio club
            Message 5 of 10 , May 10, 2009
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              Lee,

              I am sorry to hear that your issues with Von Schweikert would lead you to abandon future participation with DAC.

              The DAC is an informally run audio club for which there is no agenda that I know of other than sharing our enthusiasm for the hobby. When I offered to host this meeting, I was leaving it to the various participants to contribute whatever gear they might have to offer for the meeting. If someone offered to bring over a pair of Von Schweikert speakers or any other component for that matter, it was with the knowledge that an endorsement of the offered components was not implied by either myself nor DAC as an organization (if you can call it such).

              I initially had some qualms that by "allowing" dealer-provided equipment to be brought to this meeting, for fear I was creating an unwarranted "association" between DAC and the offered equipment. Since I had neither asked for the equipment to be brought nor did I accept any conditions on which equipment might be provided, I thought I was safe. Evidently not, based on your conclusions concerning the "organization" (?) called DAC.

              My participation on the Audiocircle Von Schweikert forum has been limited only as it directly relates to my experiences with Von Schweikert speakers such as the recent DAC meeting. Indeed, I was not fully aware of the contents of the VR4 SR MKII thread until you brought it up in this forum; at which time you piqued my curiosity.

              I do not believe you should have any issues with DAC or any future participation with DAC meetings. Whatever arguments you have with Von Schweikert et al should be limited to Von Schweikert et al; transferring the "enmity" you apparently have with a handful of audiocircle participants to DAC is unwarranted IMHO.



              --- In dallasaudioclub@yahoogroups.com, "lee_roitberg" <lee_roitberg@...> wrote:
              >
              > As some of you are aware, I posted a factual comment on AudioCircle regarding some VSA pictures. The pictures showed the crossover of a $28,000 speaker. The "cost-no-object anniversary speaker uses very cheap components and hot glue for the crossover. I pointed this fact out and instead of comments regarding the speaker, people who I have never met, made some very unprofessional personal attacks toward me. This even included the CEO of the company!
              >
              > The ignorance of Albert Von Schweikert, Gavin Hadley, and others on the forum is just unbelievable and inexcusable.
              >
              > I have wasted enough precious time defending honest facts. I have told AudioCircle to go F*!K themselves. I have also realized that some members of the DAC are only interested in personal gain at the expense of audio and worst off, honesty. Scott, good luck pedaling your products.
              >
              > With this said, I am taking my leave from the DAC.
              >
              > Lee
              >
            • Jules Ryckebusch
              Wow, I have not met you and I missed the last DAC meeting regretfully, I would like to add that if you leave, you will miss out on the good stuff. Don t let
              Message 6 of 10 , May 11, 2009
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                Wow, I have not met you and I missed the last DAC meeting regretfully, I would like to add that if you leave, you will miss out on the good stuff. Don't let the bad stuff/people get to you.
                 
                And by the way... I happen to use a lot of Hot Glue in my crossovers, Hang components (small ones!) form others etc. However, I am building for me and my personal enjoyment. I am also not selling my speakers for the price mentioned.
                 
                Lee. please stay. I don't even know you but there are not enough of us people around.
                 
                Jules


                From: lee_roitberg <lee_roitberg@...>
                To: dallasaudioclub@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 10:00:00 AM
                Subject: [dallasaudioclub] Liars, Cheats and Thieves

                As some of you are aware, I posted a factual comment on AudioCircle regarding some VSA pictures. The pictures showed the crossover of a $28,000 speaker. The "cost-no-object anniversary speaker uses very cheap components and hot glue for the crossover. I pointed this fact out and instead of comments regarding the speaker, people who I have never met, made some very unprofessional personal attacks toward me. This even included the CEO of the company!

                The ignorance of Albert Von Schweikert, Gavin Hadley, and others on the forum is just unbelievable and inexcusable.

                I have wasted enough precious time defending honest facts. I have told AudioCircle to go F*!K themselves. I have also realized that some members of the DAC are only interested in personal gain at the expense of audio and worst off, honesty. Scott, good luck pedaling your products.

                With this said, I am taking my leave from the DAC.

                Lee


              • Fred Thompson
                I ve found it s best to self-censor my comments whenever a dealer or a manufacturer is around, either in a meeting or on the manufacturers Audio Circle or
                Message 7 of 10 , May 12, 2009
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                  I've found it's best to self-censor my comments whenever a dealer or a
                  manufacturer is around, either in a meeting or on the manufacturers
                  Audio Circle or Audio Asylum sub group. Some can respond constructively
                  to factually based, tactfully stated criticisms of their products, but a
                  few can't handle any criticism at all. So now I limit my comments about
                  audio manufacturers' products and new moms' babies to happy talk about
                  how pretty their baby is, even when the baby is ugly and has a stinky
                  diaper, because that's what they want to hear. The outcome of hitting a
                  hornets' nest with a stick is 100% predictable.

                  Now, in fairness to dealers and manufacturers, the use of inexpensive
                  crossover parts is dictated by the economic and marketing realities of
                  the audio industry. I'm not familiar with VS, but I am with Magnepan.
                  The under-$2K Maggie 1.6 uses a 19ga iron core inductor in the woofer
                  signal path and a stack of Solen caps in the tweeter circuit.
                  Substituting a 12ga air core inductor and Sonicaps will take this
                  speaker to a different level, but the cost to upgrade a pair is about
                  $250. If Magnepan upgraded their speakers at a cost of only $150 they
                  would have to add at least $300 to the price they charge the dealer,
                  taking the selling price to well above $2,500 and killing the sales
                  volume for this already excellent speaker. Botique quality crossover
                  parts are like larger seats on commercial flights - everybody says they
                  want them, but few will actually pay the extra price at the time of
                  purchase.

                  If you want good quality crossover parts, buy speakers from
                  non-mainstream direct internet sellers like GR Research, Selah Audio,
                  Salk Sound, Tyler Acoustics, and Odyssey Audio. These all include
                  premium parts or offer then as upgrades at a reasonable cost.
                • V.G.B.
                  Fred , your point makes sense. At the same time, the speaker Lee alluded to is a 20+ K speaker , it is nt really an apples to apples comparison (probably
                  Message 8 of 10 , May 12, 2009
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                    Fred , your point makes sense. At the same time, the speaker Lee alluded to is a 20+ K speaker , it is'nt really an apples to apples comparison (probably closer to an apples to pumpkin comparison).

                    For reference, here is the thread in question. http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=67638.0
                    Unfortunately, the pictures have been removed.

                    I'll let every man make his own judgment on the "logic" (or lack, thereof) and allusions to "more than what meets the eye" arguments.





                    From: Fred Thompson <audiofred@...>
                    To: dallasaudioclub@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 9:59:49 AM
                    Subject: [dallasaudioclub] Re: Liars, Cheats and Thieves


                  • Robert Cham
                    Having worked for a high end audio console manufacturer, I can attest to the truth of the post below. This particular manufacturer went out of business trying
                    Message 9 of 10 , May 12, 2009
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                      Having worked for a high end audio console manufacturer, I can attest
                      to the truth of the post below. This particular manufacturer went
                      out of business trying to be the purest in the industry.

                      Bob Cham

                      >
                      >
                      >Now, in fairness to dealers and manufacturers, the use of inexpensive
                      >crossover parts is dictated by the economic and marketing realities of
                      >the audio industry. I'm not familiar with VS, but I am with Magnepan.
                      >The under-$2K Maggie 1.6 uses a 19ga iron core inductor in the woofer
                      >signal path and a stack of Solen caps in the tweeter circuit.
                      >Substituting a 12ga air core inductor and Sonicaps will take this
                      >speaker to a different level, but the cost to upgrade a pair is about
                      >$250. If Magnepan upgraded their speakers at a cost of only $150 they
                      >would have to add at least $300 to the price they charge the dealer,
                      >taking the selling price to well above $2,500 and killing the sales
                      >volume for this already excellent speaker. Botique quality crossover
                      >parts are like larger seats on commercial flights - everybody says they
                      >want them, but few will actually pay the extra price at the time of
                      >purchase.
                      >
                      >If you want good quality crossover parts, buy speakers from
                      >non-mainstream direct internet sellers like GR Research, Selah Audio,
                      >Salk Sound, Tyler Acoustics, and Odyssey Audio. These all include
                      >premium parts or offer then as upgrades at a reasonable cost.
                    • jimrivers3
                      To put in my two cents as founder of the Dallas Audio Club. On our home page is our statement . Copied and pasted below. As you should see, we are not
                      Message 10 of 10 , May 12, 2009
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                        To put in my two cents as founder of the Dallas Audio Club. On our home page is our "statement". Copied and pasted below. As you should see, we are not affiliated with any audio group except Lone Star Bottleheads. Which used to be a Yahoo group like this one before Luther took it up a notch.
                         
                        A group to further audiophile gatherings, music listening, gear swapping/selling and info sharing for folks in the Dallas / Ft. Worth area. Spread the word about your favorite music on analog and digital formats.
                        Also visit our pals at... http://lonestarbottleheads.org/

                        As I hope you can see, this group was my (semi-successful?) attempt to bring together those dedicated to the love of music, meeting new people with similar interests and swapping and selling stuff to each other. I could have said mainly for the DIY enthusiast too. But so many of us love music but don't build our own gear. My high hopes fizzled several years ago when only, of the 90 members or so back then, only 5 or 6 of the same people were ever willing to open their homes to meetings. A big dose of reality for me. Because of personal issues, I've backed away from all things audio as a hobby, including this club and audio websites. But will say I am sorry things sometimes (always?) seem to not go smooth when people meet or talk over issues they are passionate about. Good luck getting along in the future.
                        jim...

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