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Re: This Club: New management/ownership

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  • blrchapman
    Hello guys, As you saw in Jim s post, I as well as a few other members here have stepped up to try to put a new starter motor on this group. I like and
    Message 1 of 16 , Aug 19, 2007
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      Hello guys,

      As you saw in Jim's post, I as well as a few other members here have
      stepped up to try to put a new starter motor on this group. I like
      and appreciate what everyone is saying regarding the difference in
      DIY and Hi End audio. I think the line that separates most of these
      two groups is typically funding. AKA the difference between me
      walking into my living room with four ziplocks full of lead shot, and
      another guy walking into the room with super dense pretty weights
      designed for the tops of his speakers custom made in mahoghany and
      zebrawood. What works better? Who knows really?

      What I would really like is as much feedback as I can get to assist
      in trying to make this a better club for everyone.

      Let me introduce myself first,

      My name is Blair Chapman. I live in Allen and have been fairly
      obsessed with audio since I was about 10. I'm 28 now. I'm a big time
      DIYer. As a matter of fact my current system consists of a 6SN7
      preamp, a pretty modded DIYTUBE MKIII (Stereo amplifier), braided
      CAT5 cables, DIY open baffle hybrid speakers (I'll include some
      links), a MHZS CD player that I bought broken from a guy for 150
      bucks and put 50 more into to mod the crap out of it and fix the
      poppy sound or replaced the DAC chip;) So, I can honestly say that
      there ain't a thing in my system that I haven't had a gun on.

      http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?folder_id=1535206

      What I want is your thoughts on the differences between DIY audio
      versus High End audio minus the obvious. This is not meant to strike
      up an arguement, but to assist me in trying to reformat and think of
      some meeting ideas and a "workable" solution.

      Thank all,

      Blair
    • Dennis Boyle
      This might turn out to be an interesting topic. To start off I refer interested members to a definition of high end audio
      Message 2 of 16 , Aug 19, 2007
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        This might turn out to be an interesting topic. To start off I refer interested members to a definition of high end audio

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-end_audio and DIY audio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIY_audio there is enough information in those definitions for every to fell good about themselves.

         

        I assume most audio enthusiasts, I hate to use the word audiophile, are just trying to end up with a home audio system that gets them closer to the Magic in the Music. I am not sure it is just an issue of affordability, since price doesn’t always mean performance whether you are buying or building.

         

        Home Audio Stereo sales as a % of the consumer electronics market is shrinking rapidly, at least according to the CES. Many consumers have switched to Home Theater systems which they also use to play Music, but the biggest impact has been MP3, portable DA players and ancillary products that provide an alternative Home Audio System. They just drop their Ipod into an affordable powere stereo speaker console. When I used to get my complimentary Manufacturers copy of Stereophile, they used to send me quarterly surveys on their subscribers. At that time the average age of their subscribers was in the high 50s. How many years does “high end” audio have left. How many perople in their 30s have ever heard a decent Stereo System.

         

        The good news is that the Web has been a very good thing for Audio, whether you are building or buying a system. There has also been a lot of decent affordable, relatively speaking, audio products that offer excellent performance…especially if you are buying used equipment off the Web.

         

        Perhaps the question really is, are the traditional ways audio consumers improved their systems still working? Audio Magazines, Audio Dealers and Audio Manufacturers claims are not trusted or believed as they used to be. Many audio consumers surf the web and read customers reviews or ask members of audio groups their opinions on equipment. I hasten to add there is misinformation on the web as well, but in most cases the participants are not as biased or as blatant as the information published by members of the Audio Industry.

         

        Since this seems to be about the future “path” of the DAC towards success. It might be a good idea to e-mail all the members and have them participate in a survey. Why did they join, how they would like the DAC to be a resource to their needs, etc. and publish the results. It could be that my assumption that all of us joined to find the Magic in the Music might not be valid,                    

         

        Regards,

         

        Dennis Boyle

        Chimera Laboratories

        Website: http://www.chimeralabs.com/

        Website: http://home.att.net/~chimeraone/index.html

         

         


        From: dallasaudioclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dallasaudioclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of blrchapman
        Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 10:03 PM
        To: dallasaudioclub@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [dallasaudioclub] Re: This Club: New management/ownership

         

        Hello guys,

        As you saw in Jim's post, I as well as a few other members here have
        stepped up to try to put a new starter motor on this group. I like
        and appreciate what everyone is saying regarding the difference in
        DIY and Hi End audio. I think the line that separates most of these
        two groups is typically funding. AKA the difference between me
        walking into my living room with four ziplocks full of lead shot, and
        another guy walking into the room with super dense pretty weights
        designed for the tops of his speakers custom made in mahoghany and
        zebrawood. What works better? Who knows really?

        What I would really like is as much feedback as I can get to assist
        in trying to make this a better club for everyone.

        Let me introduce myself first,

        My name is Blair Chapman. I live in Allen and have been fairly
        obsessed with audio since I was about 10. I'm 28 now. I'm a big time
        DIYer. As a matter of fact my current system consists of a 6SN7
        preamp, a pretty modded DIYTUBE MKIII (Stereo amplifier), braided
        CAT5 cables, DIY open baffle hybrid speakers (I'll include some
        links), a MHZS CD player that I bought broken from a guy for 150
        bucks and put 50 more into to mod the crap out of it and fix the
        poppy sound or replaced the DAC chip;) So, I can honestly say that
        there ain't a thing in my system that I haven't had a gun on.

        http://www.villagep hotos.com/ pubbrowse. asp?folder_ id=1535206

        What I want is your thoughts on the differences between DIY audio
        versus High End audio minus the obvious. This is not meant to strike
        up an arguement, but to assist me in trying to reformat and think of
        some meeting ideas and a "workable" solution.

        Thank all,

        Blair

      • Tom Russell
        The small number of posts making any response concerning this matter likely says more, and thus brings the DAC situation more into focus, than any other thing
        Message 3 of 16 , Aug 20, 2007
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          The small number of posts making any response concerning this matter likely
          says more, and thus brings the DAC situation more into focus, than any other
          thing that might be said. Nevertheless, after mulling over this for a while,
          I decided to post on this subject.

          First off, a large word of thanks goes out to Jim, and to Fred, for
          possessing a lot of initiative and showing a lot of dedication in their
          efforts to the purpose of creating a viable hifi guy group in our area. No
          matter what either of them might say, they are the movers and shakers here
          abouts. As far as I can tell from my view, without their efforts there would
          be no moving, nor any shaking, going on at all. I have been involved in some
          aspect of high end/DIY audio for many decades, all in the D/FW area. I have
          seen several attempts at establishing an audio based group over the years
          and none of these attemps have led to anything that could be called
          successful. Maybe there is something endemic to this area?

          Regarding the thoughts, "Heck I feel you're not a full DAC member until your
          have hosted a audio meet some kind." and " if you have never hosted a meet
          before then I feel you have no input or have paid your dues.", if this
          criteria is to be used, this thread is a useless exercise as the three or
          four few who have hosted can work this out amongst themselves. My thoughts
          would be more along the lines that this club has been, if anything, too
          exclusionary and should do, if anything, whatever is reasonable to encourage
          participation across as wide a front as could possibly be considered
          relative to quality audio reproduction. It is obvious that the preponderance
          of responses to this thread have been from DIY guys.

          I've always assumed that the DAC/Bottlehead guys and the North Texas Audio
          Jam guys were, respectively, the Audio Karma guys and the Audio Circle guys.

          Regarding high end audio vs. DIY audio, the definitions of these
          disciplines, especially as they relate to ultimate sound quality, are not at
          all directly relative to the amount of money spent. There are far, far too
          many examples of both of these disciplines rendering poor quality results.
          The real problem area lies in the fact that any and all versions of a
          serious attempt at quality audio reproduction are quickly becoming more and
          more marginalized to the point of effective extinction. The practical
          problem, the problem that is certainly very real in the minds of non-audio
          folks, is that the average audio system, as represented by both high-end,
          high-dollar and DIY, do not sound very good and therefore do not, and in
          actuality can not, in any sense that would be generally considered as
          reasonable, validate their own worth and ultimately can not validate their
          own existence in the real world. This is the real world battle line. It is
          true that what remains of the hi-fi scene has generally morphed into home
          theater. Every time a home-theater-in-a-box is sold, the world goes further
          away from 2 channel audio. My experience shows me that attempting to combine
          a home theater surround sound set-up and a 2 channel music set-up into one
          system is not going to do justice to either discipline. The burden is on
          those of us who have interest in the viability of the 2 channel music system
          to demonstrate the value of having such a system to the rest of the world.
          In this regard, it is obvious that we have failed.

          On a personal note about hosting, I volunteered, in discussions with both
          Jim and Fred, to host audio meetings. Those of you who know me know that I
          am a music guy. All of this equipment stuff is, to my view, strictly there
          to be in support of the musical statement and the emotional music
          connection. That said, I do have some good stuff. What I had to offer was a
          place with sufficient space to accomodate a normally sized group, two
          complete 2 channel systems [both of which are about as good sounding as you
          will find anytime, anywhere], many 1000's of all sorts of recordings, chef
          quality food, and a very flexible schedule. I also have a dedicated theater
          area that could be available for use. Both of my 2 channel systems are fully
          hard-wired; audio signal, power supply, and AC. My systems are not conducive
          to moving different components in and out. In my home, I have only so much
          space and it has required some specific planning so that everything will
          have it's own place to be. In both conversations, it was decided that my
          place was not good for an audio meeting. "These people want to change
          components around." That was that. When one takes into account that some
          people don't feel that they have sufficient space to host [should be able to
          be worked out], some people feel that they don't have a sufficient level of
          equipment quality to host [shouldn't matter], some people have family issues
          that they feel preclude hosting, some people feel that they don't have
          sufficient financial resources to host [should be able to be worked out],
          etc., etc., and you add in the above paragraph, one can see that there are
          practical problems, with regard to hosting, that need to be overcome.
          Should be able to be worked out!

          All said, I continue to desire to get together with audio guys, particularly
          music oriented audio guys, just about anytime. Our family is a late night to
          early morning family and I have most every afternoon and evening open. Y'all
          are welcome!


          Tom
        • blrchapman
          Thank you for this opinion and offer, I agree that Fred and Jim are both very assertive and aggressive towards the needs of the audio community. Granted I
          Message 4 of 16 , Aug 20, 2007
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            Thank you for this opinion and offer,

            I agree that Fred and Jim are both very assertive and aggressive
            towards the needs of the audio community. Granted I haven't done
            anything through this organization, I have assembled several
            successful DIY events with people driving up from as far as Austin to
            attend. It is always a pleasure to have these events and the
            reoccurance of guests obviously shows enjoyment during their visits.
            As far as loving music, I think we are all in agreement there. I
            guess that I'm trying to get at is that it was a poorly stated post
            to try to discern between DIY and Hi End audio enthisiast. I was
            merely trying to see who posteed on behalf of each type of audio
            enthusiast. I eagerly look forward to making things happen here and
            will do my best to introduce some neat and challenging topics
            tailored towards everyone whether it is source material or distortion
            figures in various vacuum tubes. I think the idea brought forth about
            meeting once every month or two in person to dicuss such issues if
            not just for the sake of having a drink is a good idea as well. Shows
            support and some form of group interest.

            Thank you,

            Blair


            --- In dallasaudioclub@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Russell" <tomjoy@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > The small number of posts making any response concerning this
            matter likely
            > says more, and thus brings the DAC situation more into focus, than
            any other
            > thing that might be said. Nevertheless, after mulling over this for
            a while,
            > I decided to post on this subject.
            >
            > First off, a large word of thanks goes out to Jim, and to Fred, for
            > possessing a lot of initiative and showing a lot of dedication in
            their
            > efforts to the purpose of creating a viable hifi guy group in our
            area. No
            > matter what either of them might say, they are the movers and
            shakers here
            > abouts. As far as I can tell from my view, without their efforts
            there would
            > be no moving, nor any shaking, going on at all. I have been
            involved in some
            > aspect of high end/DIY audio for many decades, all in the D/FW
            area. I have
            > seen several attempts at establishing an audio based group over the
            years
            > and none of these attemps have led to anything that could be called
            > successful. Maybe there is something endemic to this area?
            >
            > Regarding the thoughts, "Heck I feel you're not a full DAC member
            until your
            > have hosted a audio meet some kind." and " if you have never hosted
            a meet
            > before then I feel you have no input or have paid your dues.", if
            this
            > criteria is to be used, this thread is a useless exercise as the
            three or
            > four few who have hosted can work this out amongst themselves. My
            thoughts
            > would be more along the lines that this club has been, if anything,
            too
            > exclusionary and should do, if anything, whatever is reasonable to
            encourage
            > participation across as wide a front as could possibly be considered
            > relative to quality audio reproduction. It is obvious that the
            preponderance
            > of responses to this thread have been from DIY guys.
            >
            > I've always assumed that the DAC/Bottlehead guys and the North
            Texas Audio
            > Jam guys were, respectively, the Audio Karma guys and the Audio
            Circle guys.
            >
            > Regarding high end audio vs. DIY audio, the definitions of these
            > disciplines, especially as they relate to ultimate sound quality,
            are not at
            > all directly relative to the amount of money spent. There are far,
            far too
            > many examples of both of these disciplines rendering poor quality
            results.
            > The real problem area lies in the fact that any and all versions of
            a
            > serious attempt at quality audio reproduction are quickly becoming
            more and
            > more marginalized to the point of effective extinction. The
            practical
            > problem, the problem that is certainly very real in the minds of
            non-audio
            > folks, is that the average audio system, as represented by both
            high-end,
            > high-dollar and DIY, do not sound very good and therefore do not,
            and in
            > actuality can not, in any sense that would be generally considered
            as
            > reasonable, validate their own worth and ultimately can not
            validate their
            > own existence in the real world. This is the real world battle
            line. It is
            > true that what remains of the hi-fi scene has generally morphed
            into home
            > theater. Every time a home-theater-in-a-box is sold, the world goes
            further
            > away from 2 channel audio. My experience shows me that attempting
            to combine
            > a home theater surround sound set-up and a 2 channel music set-up
            into one
            > system is not going to do justice to either discipline. The burden
            is on
            > those of us who have interest in the viability of the 2 channel
            music system
            > to demonstrate the value of having such a system to the rest of the
            world.
            > In this regard, it is obvious that we have failed.
            >
            > On a personal note about hosting, I volunteered, in discussions
            with both
            > Jim and Fred, to host audio meetings. Those of you who know me know
            that I
            > am a music guy. All of this equipment stuff is, to my view,
            strictly there
            > to be in support of the musical statement and the emotional music
            > connection. That said, I do have some good stuff. What I had to
            offer was a
            > place with sufficient space to accomodate a normally sized group,
            two
            > complete 2 channel systems [both of which are about as good
            sounding as you
            > will find anytime, anywhere], many 1000's of all sorts of
            recordings, chef
            > quality food, and a very flexible schedule. I also have a dedicated
            theater
            > area that could be available for use. Both of my 2 channel systems
            are fully
            > hard-wired; audio signal, power supply, and AC. My systems are not
            conducive
            > to moving different components in and out. In my home, I have only
            so much
            > space and it has required some specific planning so that everything
            will
            > have it's own place to be. In both conversations, it was decided
            that my
            > place was not good for an audio meeting. "These people want to
            change
            > components around." That was that. When one takes into account that
            some
            > people don't feel that they have sufficient space to host [should
            be able to
            > be worked out], some people feel that they don't have a sufficient
            level of
            > equipment quality to host [shouldn't matter], some people have
            family issues
            > that they feel preclude hosting, some people feel that they don't
            have
            > sufficient financial resources to host [should be able to be worked
            out],
            > etc., etc., and you add in the above paragraph, one can see that
            there are
            > practical problems, with regard to hosting, that need to be
            overcome.
            > Should be able to be worked out!
            >
            > All said, I continue to desire to get together with audio guys,
            particularly
            > music oriented audio guys, just about anytime. Our family is a late
            night to
            > early morning family and I have most every afternoon and evening
            open. Y'all
            > are welcome!
            >
            >
            > Tom
            >
          • Ron Carlton
            There is another fairly active group in the DFW area: DFW_Hornheads http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DFW_Hornheads/ that shouldn t be overlooked. I have two
            Message 5 of 16 , Aug 20, 2007
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              There is another fairly active group in the DFW area: DFW_Hornheads
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DFW_Hornheads/ that shouldn't be
              overlooked. I have two complete systems with an empty room in which a
              third could be setup. I certainly have the means to host an event also.

              Ron
            • bearhifi
              Once again it does not matter if your DIY or commercial and this club has never cared what your preferences is. The rule has always been Its your meeting /
              Message 6 of 16 , Aug 20, 2007
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                Once again it does not matter if your DIY or commercial and this
                club has never cared what your preferences is. The rule has always
                been "Its your meeting / house and you can do as you please." If
                you want to only listen to music then that's your choice as long as
                you post your desires on the board. This has been a simple group of
                folks looking to have a beer and play around with audio gear. It's
                not high tech or commercial! That's it in a nut shell. But like I
                said if one wants to grow the club into something bigger and/or a
                different direction then I will try to support it.

                Regarding your comment "this club has been, if anything, too
                exclusionary." It has become exclusionary because only a hand full
                of folks actually hold meetings… If more people would volunteer then
                it would not be so exclusionary, we'd get a variety of perspectives
                and preferences, and maybe appeal to a broader audience…


                There should not be any more debates regarding DIY and non-DIY!
                It's not an issue and if you like and have audio gear of any kind
                then please feel free to share it with us over a beer (or wine, or
                tequila, or whatever)… It's that simple really…
              • jktdet
                ... Very well said... why don t we just have a meeting and see what happens. Personally I enjoy the chance to talk to other folks listen to a little new music.
                Message 7 of 16 , Aug 20, 2007
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                  >
                  >
                  > There should not be any more debates regarding DIY and non-DIY!
                  > It's not an issue and if you like and have audio gear of any kind
                  > then please feel free to share it with us over a beer (or wine, or
                  > tequila, or whatever)… It's that simple really…


                  Very well said... why don't we just have a meeting and see what
                  happens. Personally I enjoy the chance to talk to other folks listen
                  to a little new music. See what people's interests are etc...

                  I will host a meet if anyone is game. I have the space and a system. I
                  can also set things up for easy hook up of other gear.

                  Dave
                • Dennis Boyle
                  Hopefully more DAC members will participate in this discussion and the postings will help the group reach a consensus that satisfies the needs of a majority of
                  Message 8 of 16 , Aug 20, 2007
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                    Hopefully more DAC members will participate in this discussion and the postings will help the group reach a consensus that satisfies the needs of a majority of the active members. I can’t believe that the roster shows a membership of over 90 members.

                     

                    I thought I would at least share my own experiences participating in the club. Keep in mind I am in the business, but to be honest, I am not interested in orders from DAC members. I am interested in two things. Using their ears to help me refine the products and to do some serious listening to components and Music.

                     

                    DAC members were a big help in refining the Axiom Amp design. Once again thanks to all who participated. I have lost count of how many new artists and new albums I discovered. It wouldn’t have happened without the listening sessions and look forward to discovering more.

                     

                    To be honest I can do without the large group meetings. I went to a meeting at Bob Spence’s house and took a friend along that was interested in joining the club to listen to some Music. There were a lot of people and a lot of equipment and Music I never got to listen to. The agenda seemed to be more about talking about audio than listening to it. We stayed about 30 minutes and took off.  That’s the last meeting I went to.

                     

                    Since then I have accepted invitations to weekend listening sessions from DAC members when I could. Smaller group of people, in some cases a break for food or none at all. Then we stopped talking and listened to Music. In one listening session the group grew to some number I don’t remember and discussion trumped the Music.

                     

                    I guess what I am saying is it might not be the number of meetings you have or how many meetings take place at different locations. It what members want the agenda of the meeting to be. I don’t care about how many different pieces of equipment there will be or whether there will be munchies. I would like to know whether we will do some serious listening.

                     

                    Regards,          

                     

                     

                    Dennis Boyle

                    Chimera Laboratories

                    Website: http://www.chimeralabs.com/

                    Website: http://home.att.net/~chimeraone/index.html

                     

                     


                    From: dallasaudioclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dallasaudioclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bearhifi
                    Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 7:08 PM
                    To: dallasaudioclub@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [dallasaudioclub] Re: This Club: New management/ownership

                     

                    Once again it does not matter if your DIY or commercial and this
                    club has never cared what your preferences is. The rule has always
                    been "Its your meeting / house and you can do as you please." If
                    you want to only listen to music then that's your choice as long as
                    you post your desires on the board. This has been a simple group of
                    folks looking to have a beer and play around with audio gear. It's
                    not high tech or commercial! That's it in a nut shell. But like I
                    said if one wants to grow the club into something bigger and/or a
                    different direction then I will try to support it.

                    Regarding your comment "this club has been, if anything, too
                    exclusionary. " It has become exclusionary because only a hand full
                    of folks actually hold meetings… If more people would volunteer then
                    it would not be so exclusionary, we'd get a variety of perspectives
                    and preferences, and maybe appeal to a broader audience…

                    There should not be any more debates regarding DIY and non-DIY!
                    It's not an issue and if you like and have audio gear of any kind
                    then please feel free to share it with us over a beer (or wine, or
                    tequila, or whatever)… It's that simple really…

                  • Jim
                    Tom: For whatever reason. Probably my own old fart brain, I never understood you to offer holding a meeting. My bad and sorry. Dennis: In the beginning, I
                    Message 9 of 16 , Aug 20, 2007
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                      Tom: For whatever reason. Probably my own "old fart" brain, I never understood you to offer holding a meeting. My bad and sorry.
                      Dennis: In the beginning, I wanted the club to be about listening to music, not gear necessarily. That seemed to tick off several folks in one of my early meetings.
                      Frank: You are correct sir. The club rule has always been... the host decides on the format. Music, gear, selling/swapping, whatever. After all, it's his (or her) house. The host makes the rules.
                      Group: Hey, I've got dialog flowing now!
                      Group: This group was meant to be about vinyl, CD and all other formats!  Listening and sharing music.
                       
                           I've learned a lot since I started the club.
                      One: With 31 people in your house, it's not about the music any more. Plus the cat was crazy for weeks. Two of those was enough.
                      Two: For several months, I asked for people to have a meeting and all I got was dead silence in this group. Except finally for Frank and Russ. Maybe that's when things started to go sour. At least for me.
                      Three: For me, 10 or less at a meeting is as much as my house can hold and still be about the music. One reason I asked members to hold smaller gatherings and report on new music, etc.  That never happened.
                      Four: I'm old and tired and am willing to turn over or share the group with one or more younger leaders who want to try new ideas and things.
                        jim...
                    • jktdet
                      Jim, I am old too. I really guys like Blair and the others will help. Thanks for bringing up Frank... he was the guy who hosted the last two meets I went to. I
                      Message 10 of 16 , Aug 20, 2007
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                        Jim,

                        I am old too. I really guys like Blair and the others will help.
                        Thanks for bringing up Frank... he was the guy who hosted the last two
                        meets I went to. I like the music aspect... heck I would probably not
                        know who Katie Melua was had I not attended one of these meetings. I
                        use her cds to voice crossovers with. I like the technical side too
                        but I mostly just enjoy people who want to save stereo hifi and
                        realize that ipods are great for airplanes and basically nothing else.

                        I would love to host a meeting and hope you are up to attending.

                        Dave
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