Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Rethinking economics

Expand Messages
  • Andrius Kulikauskas
    John, thank you for the links. Nevertheless, it would be useful for me to understand and communicate the current theory of macroeconomics and the existing
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 1, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      John, thank you for the links.

      Nevertheless, it would be useful for me to understand and communicate
      the current theory of macroeconomics and the existing models for the
      flow of wealth. Then I would be in a position to show with great care
      where the theory breaks down. Math, I suppose, is a care for the
      absolute details, where and why they hold and where and why they break
      down. A friend asked me to watch the Zeitgeist movie and I was
      disappointed to see in that movie a real lack of care for the truth,
      denouncing myths with even greater myths.

      My feeling is that a lot of "alternate economy" thinking is
      reintroducing the current economic paradigms. I look forward to better
      appreciating the strengths and weaknesses of the current economy and
      practically pursuing my own goals for a different way of making a living.

      Andrius

      Andrius Kulikauskas
      Gospel Math
      http://www.gospelmath.com
      (773) 306-3807


      On 11/13/2010 06:20 AM, John Rogers wrote:
      > Andrius, Meredith, Ralf, John
      >
      > Great to see some activity in this group again after so long silence!
      >
      > If we want to rethink economics then we need to go back to basics.
      >
      > The first thing that strikes me about Andrius's list of global economic figures
      > - the 'world's wealth' - is that the planet itself and all its 'free'
      > 'eco-system services' is missing.
      >
      >
      > I prefer to listen to the voices of Native peoples to get some insights here:
      >
      > "Only when the last tree has died, the last river has been poisoned and the
      > last fish has been caught will we realize that we cannot eat money." Cree
      > Indian Proverb
      >
      > Or more enlightened Western thinkers such as Herman Daly, founder of ecological
      > economics:
      > "The economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment, not the reverse."
      >
      > The word 'economy' is ancient Greek meaning 'rules of the household' ie
      > balancing what comes in with what goes out. The word 'ecology' is the study of
      > our planetary 'house'. So both economics and ecology are about balance within
      > finite systems.
      >
      > But what we think of as economics only emerged in the 18th century with people
      > like Adam Smith and 'The Wealth of Nations' and the tradition of neo-classical
      > and neo-liberal economics that grew out of it. This tradition has effectively
      > staged a coup of university economics teaching which is now dominated by fancy
      > mathematics masking vested interests and is really what Hazel Henderson called
      > 'politics in disguise'.
      >
      >
      > It is why the economics students of Paris staged a mini-revolution in the world
      > of academic economics in the year 2000 to start the Post Autistic Economics
      > movement and argue for an economics in touch with the real world of planetary
      > limits and human communities. In other words, paying attention to the true
      > effects of externalities and asking what we are going to do about them to bring
      > about resilience, survival and sustainability. Economics Professors like Edward
      > Fullbrook and his Toxic Textbooks movement are playing a part in this
      > revolution.
      >
      > The other essential point that Hazel Henderson, Marilyn Waring and Edgar Cahn
      > have made is the importance of what we measure. For instance, if we only measure
      > things as wealth, growth and progress that have dollar signs against them, then
      > we are doomed to damage all the things that make us truly happy such as a
      > healthy physical, emotional and intellectual environment. It is truly absurd
      > that locking people up in prisons or old peoples' homes registers as 'growth'
      > because it creates jobs and building contracts when what it actually reflects is
      > the sickness of societies that cannot create healthy environments.
      >
      > Check out:
      > Hazel Henderson's Quality of Life indicators:
      > http://www.ethicalmarkets.com/about/calvert-henderson-quality-of-life-indicators/
      >
      >
      > Marilyn Waring's work: http://marilynwaring.com/index.html
      >
      > Edgar Cahn on co-production and time banking: http://www.timebanks.org/
      > Watch the 15 minute video of him on the home page talking about the Core
      > Economy.
      >
      >
      > John Rogers
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@...>
      > To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com; livingbytruth@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Fri, 12 November, 2010 17:01:41
      > Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: Rethinking economics
      >
      >
      > Meredith, Ralf, Thank you! I share your letters and links.
      >
      > Meredith, http://www.gapminder.org is truly impressive.
      >
      > I saw a nice chart of life expectancy vs. wealth for all the nations
      > which you could then view over 200 years as a video.
      >
      > Then I saw that there are 438 different statistics. There's a few for
      > "Economy"=>"Economic Situation" such as Tax revenues as percentage of GDP.
      >
      > What's great is that you can compare any two statistics and make a
      > chart. For example, you can study alcohol consumption or murder rates etc.
      >
      > It's also possible to compare US states, EU countries, China's provinces
      > and India's states with countries of the world:
      > http://www.gapminder.org/labs/
      >
      > What this makes clear to me for my book is that I should really focus on
      > the ideas in math, for example, how to use such a resource, rather than
      > trying to take its place.
      >
      > Still, I'm wondering if there's a resource that illustrates the global
      > or national macroeconomy, the forms of wealth and how they flow from one
      > to another. I found this site:
      > http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/macroeconomics.html
      > Here's an example applet:
      > http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/tutor/circularflow_applet.html
      >
      > Thank you!
      >
      > Andrius Kulikauskas, Minciu Sodas, http://www.helproom.org, (773) 306-3807
      >
      > On 11/12/2010 05:16 AM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
      >> Andrius,
      >>
      >> Check out http://www.gapminder.org/ and Hans Rosling's amazing TED talk
      >> about it,
      >> http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html.
      >> .
      >> It's a tool for tracking statistical and economic data over time. Much of
      >> the data they have (http://www.gapminder.org/data/) has to do with health
      >> and wellness, but you'll also find things like the consumer price index,
      >> energy usage per person, external debt per person, GDP per capita, working
      >> hours per week and so on.
      >>
      >> Cheers,
      >> --mlp
      > On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 01:28:06AM -0600, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
      >>> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
      >>> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
      >>> useful information?
      > You might want to directly look at the reports from the International
      > Monetary Fund for things like global Gross Domestic Product (GDP) data
      > (also for different countries) although we all know here that GDP isn't
      > really a very good indicator.
      > http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/weodata/index.aspx
      >
      > Or for other economic data (like derivatives) you might want to look at
      > the reports from the Bank for International Settlements
      > http://www.bis.org, they produce quarterly reports in PDF format where
      > you get a lot of interesting numbers. You should get the "Statistical
      > annex" to the "BIS Quarterly Review"
      > http://www.bis.org/publ/quarterly.htm
      >
      > Some time ago I used these sources to plot GDP vs money held in
      > derivatives (graphics attached). This clearly shows how fragile the
      > whole interest system has become... the text in the graphics is in
      > german, "Milliarden" = "Billion", "Derivate" = "Derivatives",
      > "Weltsozialprodukt" = "World Gross Domestic Product", and yes: the
      > highest point in the red curve is really almost 700000 Billion = 700
      > Trillion US$...
      >
      > Ralf
      > -- Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck Tel: +43/2243/26465-16 Open Source Consulting
      > www: http://www.runtux.com Reichergasse 131 email: office@...
      > A-3411 Weidling osAlliance member email: rsc@...
      >
      >> On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@...> wrote:
      >>
      >>> John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,
      >>>
      >>> Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also share
      >>> at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
      >>> look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.
      >>>
      >>> Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester. Perry
      >>> gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking. I learned that
      >>> there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers. Here
      >>> are some of the books:
      >>> * "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
      >>> * "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
      >>> Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
      >>> * "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
      >>> by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
      >>> * "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
      >>> with others.
      >>> And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and postmodern
      >>> age.
      >>>
      >>> Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me? It's
      >>> great! Thank you.
      >>>
      >>> I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
      >>> http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
      >>> I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
      >>> such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
      >>> Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
      >>> * Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
      >>> * Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
      >>> * Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
      >>> * Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
      >>> * World bond market: 82 trillion USD
      >>> Per Year:
      >>> * Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
      >>> * Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
      >>> * US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
      >>> * Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
      >>> * Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
      >>> * World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)
      >>>
      >>> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
      >>> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
      >>> useful information?
      >>>
      >>> Andrius
      >>>
      >>> Andrius Kulikauskas
      >>> Minciu Sodas
      >>> http://www.helproom.org
      >>> (773) 306-3807
      >>>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Each letter sent to cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
      > enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN whenever it does not state otherwise. http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org
      > Please be kind to our authors!
      >
      > Have a look at our wiki where we are creating an online learning environment for community currency: http://www.findbetterways.info/wiki.cgi?FindBetterWays/CommunityCurrency
      >
      >
      > To Post a message, send it to: cyfranogi@...
      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: cyfranogi-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • jw
      Andrius: Just for some background, you might look at this discussion (link below) so you know what you are stepping into. This goes on forever. I can only
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 18, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Andrius:

        Just for some background, you might look at this discussion (link below)
        so you know what you are stepping into. This goes on forever. I can
        only note that all of the discussions about money systems and power
        center around the thesis that there is a way to organize large groups of
        people, even world wide. I suspect that assumption needs a hard look.

        JW

        http://www.thedailybell.com/1684/Anthony-Wile-with-Ellen-Brown-on-the-Efficiencies-of-the-State-and-the-Progress-of-Her-Public-Banking-Vision---.html

        On 12/1/2010 10:53 PM, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
        >
        > John, thank you for the links.
        >
        > Nevertheless, it would be useful for me to understand and communicate
        > the current theory of macroeconomics and the existing models for the
        > flow of wealth. Then I would be in a position to show with great care
        > where the theory breaks down. Math, I suppose, is a care for the
        > absolute details, where and why they hold and where and why they break
        > down. A friend asked me to watch the Zeitgeist movie and I was
        > disappointed to see in that movie a real lack of care for the truth,
        > denouncing myths with even greater myths.
        >
        > My feeling is that a lot of "alternate economy" thinking is
        > reintroducing the current economic paradigms. I look forward to better
        > appreciating the strengths and weaknesses of the current economy and
        > practically pursuing my own goals for a different way of making a living.
        >
        > Andrius
        >
        > Andrius Kulikauskas
        > Gospel Math
        > http://www.gospelmath.com
        > (773) 306-3807
        >
        > On 11/13/2010 06:20 AM, John Rogers wrote:
        > > Andrius, Meredith, Ralf, John
        > >
        > > Great to see some activity in this group again after so long silence!
        > >
        > > If we want to rethink economics then we need to go back to basics.
        > >
        > > The first thing that strikes me about Andrius's list of global
        > economic figures
        > > - the 'world's wealth' - is that the planet itself and all its 'free'
        > > 'eco-system services' is missing.
        > >
        > >
        > > I prefer to listen to the voices of Native peoples to get some
        > insights here:
        > >
        > > "Only when the last tree has died, the last river has been poisoned
        > and the
        > > last fish has been caught will we realize that we cannot eat money."
        > Cree
        > > Indian Proverb
        > >
        > > Or more enlightened Western thinkers such as Herman Daly, founder of
        > ecological
        > > economics:
        > > "The economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment, not
        > the reverse."
        > >
        > > The word 'economy' is ancient Greek meaning 'rules of the household' ie
        > > balancing what comes in with what goes out. The word 'ecology' is
        > the study of
        > > our planetary 'house'. So both economics and ecology are about
        > balance within
        > > finite systems.
        > >
        > > But what we think of as economics only emerged in the 18th century
        > with people
        > > like Adam Smith and 'The Wealth of Nations' and the tradition of
        > neo-classical
        > > and neo-liberal economics that grew out of it. This tradition has
        > effectively
        > > staged a coup of university economics teaching which is now
        > dominated by fancy
        > > mathematics masking vested interests and is really what Hazel
        > Henderson called
        > > 'politics in disguise'.
        > >
        > >
        > > It is why the economics students of Paris staged a mini-revolution
        > in the world
        > > of academic economics in the year 2000 to start the Post Autistic
        > Economics
        > > movement and argue for an economics in touch with the real world of
        > planetary
        > > limits and human communities. In other words, paying attention to
        > the true
        > > effects of externalities and asking what we are going to do about
        > them to bring
        > > about resilience, survival and sustainability. Economics Professors
        > like Edward
        > > Fullbrook and his Toxic Textbooks movement are playing a part in this
        > > revolution.
        > >
        > > The other essential point that Hazel Henderson, Marilyn Waring and
        > Edgar Cahn
        > > have made is the importance of what we measure. For instance, if we
        > only measure
        > > things as wealth, growth and progress that have dollar signs against
        > them, then
        > > we are doomed to damage all the things that make us truly happy such
        > as a
        > > healthy physical, emotional and intellectual environment. It is
        > truly absurd
        > > that locking people up in prisons or old peoples' homes registers as
        > 'growth'
        > > because it creates jobs and building contracts when what it actually
        > reflects is
        > > the sickness of societies that cannot create healthy environments.
        > >
        > > Check out:
        > > Hazel Henderson's Quality of Life indicators:
        > >
        > http://www.ethicalmarkets.com/about/calvert-henderson-quality-of-life-indicators/
        > >
        > >
        > > Marilyn Waring's work: http://marilynwaring.com/index.html
        > >
        > > Edgar Cahn on co-production and time banking: http://www.timebanks.org/
        > > Watch the 15 minute video of him on the home page talking about the Core
        > > Economy.
        > >
        > >
        > > John Rogers
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ________________________________
        > > From: Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@... <mailto:ms%40ms.lt>>
        > > To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com>;
        > livingbytruth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:livingbytruth%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Fri, 12 November, 2010 17:01:41
        > > Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: Rethinking economics
        > >
        > >
        > > Meredith, Ralf, Thank you! I share your letters and links.
        > >
        > > Meredith, http://www.gapminder.org is truly impressive.
        > >
        > > I saw a nice chart of life expectancy vs. wealth for all the nations
        > > which you could then view over 200 years as a video.
        > >
        > > Then I saw that there are 438 different statistics. There's a few for
        > > "Economy"=>"Economic Situation" such as Tax revenues as percentage
        > of GDP.
        > >
        > > What's great is that you can compare any two statistics and make a
        > > chart. For example, you can study alcohol consumption or murder
        > rates etc.
        > >
        > > It's also possible to compare US states, EU countries, China's provinces
        > > and India's states with countries of the world:
        > > http://www.gapminder.org/labs/
        > >
        > > What this makes clear to me for my book is that I should really focus on
        > > the ideas in math, for example, how to use such a resource, rather than
        > > trying to take its place.
        > >
        > > Still, I'm wondering if there's a resource that illustrates the global
        > > or national macroeconomy, the forms of wealth and how they flow from one
        > > to another. I found this site:
        > > http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/macroeconomics.html
        > > Here's an example applet:
        > > http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/tutor/circularflow_applet.html
        > >
        > > Thank you!
        > >
        > > Andrius Kulikauskas, Minciu Sodas, http://www.helproom.org, (773)
        > 306-3807
        > >
        > > On 11/12/2010 05:16 AM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
        > >> Andrius,
        > >>
        > >> Check out http://www.gapminder.org/ and Hans Rosling's amazing TED talk
        > >> about it,
        > >>
        > http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html.
        > >> .
        > >> It's a tool for tracking statistical and economic data over time.
        > Much of
        > >> the data they have (http://www.gapminder.org/data/) has to do with
        > health
        > >> and wellness, but you'll also find things like the consumer price
        > index,
        > >> energy usage per person, external debt per person, GDP per capita,
        > working
        > >> hours per week and so on.
        > >>
        > >> Cheers,
        > >> --mlp
        > > On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 01:28:06AM -0600, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
        > >>> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
        > >>> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
        > >>> useful information?
        > > You might want to directly look at the reports from the International
        > > Monetary Fund for things like global Gross Domestic Product (GDP) data
        > > (also for different countries) although we all know here that GDP isn't
        > > really a very good indicator.
        > > http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/weodata/index.aspx
        > >
        > > Or for other economic data (like derivatives) you might want to look at
        > > the reports from the Bank for International Settlements
        > > http://www.bis.org, they produce quarterly reports in PDF format where
        > > you get a lot of interesting numbers. You should get the "Statistical
        > > annex" to the "BIS Quarterly Review"
        > > http://www.bis.org/publ/quarterly.htm
        > >
        > > Some time ago I used these sources to plot GDP vs money held in
        > > derivatives (graphics attached). This clearly shows how fragile the
        > > whole interest system has become... the text in the graphics is in
        > > german, "Milliarden" = "Billion", "Derivate" = "Derivatives",
        > > "Weltsozialprodukt" = "World Gross Domestic Product", and yes: the
        > > highest point in the red curve is really almost 700000 Billion = 700
        > > Trillion US$...
        > >
        > > Ralf
        > > -- Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck Tel: +43/2243/26465-16 Open Source Consulting
        > > www: http://www.runtux.com Reichergasse 131 email: office@...
        > <mailto:office%40runtux.com>
        > > A-3411 Weidling osAlliance member email: rsc@...
        > <mailto:rsc%40osalliance.com>
        > >
        > >> On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@...
        > <mailto:ms%40ms.lt>> wrote:
        > >>
        > >>> John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,
        > >>>
        > >>> Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also
        > share
        > >>> at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
        > >>> look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.
        > >>>
        > >>> Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester. Perry
        > >>> gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking. I learned
        > that
        > >>> there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers.
        > Here
        > >>> are some of the books:
        > >>> * "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
        > >>> * "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
        > >>> Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
        > >>> * "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
        > >>> by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
        > >>> * "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
        > >>> with others.
        > >>> And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and
        > postmodern
        > >>> age.
        > >>>
        > >>> Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me? It's
        > >>> great! Thank you.
        > >>>
        > >>> I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
        > >>> http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
        > >>> I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
        > >>> such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
        > >>> Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
        > >>> * Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
        > >>> * Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
        > >>> * Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
        > >>> * Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
        > >>> * World bond market: 82 trillion USD
        > >>> Per Year:
        > >>> * Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
        > >>> * Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
        > >>> * US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
        > >>> * Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
        > >>> * Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
        > >>> * World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)
        > >>>
        > >>> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
        > >>> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
        > >>> useful information?
        > >>>
        > >>> Andrius
        > >>>
        > >>> Andrius Kulikauskas
        > >>> Minciu Sodas
        > >>> http://www.helproom.org
        > >>> (773) 306-3807
        > >>>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Each letter sent to cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN whenever it does not state otherwise.
        > http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org
        > > Please be kind to our authors!
        > >
        > > Have a look at our wiki where we are creating an online learning
        > environment for community currency:
        > http://www.findbetterways.info/wiki.cgi?FindBetterWays/CommunityCurrency
        > >
        > >
        > > To Post a message, send it to: cyfranogi@...
        > <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahooGroups.com>
        > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        > cyfranogi-unsubscribe@...
        > <mailto:cyfranogi-unsubscribe%40yahooGroups.comYahoo>! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tom Wayburn
        JW, Are you implying that the people of the US - or any other nation state not undergoing active rebellion - are not organized around the current monetary
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 19, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          JW,



          Are you implying that the people of the US - or any other nation state not
          undergoing active rebellion - are not organized around the current monetary
          (economic) system? I would wish for no more organized group of people than
          these except that they should be organized around a different system.



          Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas





          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cyfranogi/message/2771;_ylc=X3oDMTJxazgwbzd1B
          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE2NjUzMTUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MzI5NzM0BG1zZ0lkAzI3NzEEc
          2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTI5NTQ0OTc1Ng--> Re: Rethinking economics


          Posted by: "jw"
          <mailto:jdwasse@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Rethinking%20economics>
          jdwasse@...


          Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:46 am (PST)




          Andrius:

          Just for some background, you might look at this discussion (link below)
          so you know what you are stepping into. This goes on forever. I can
          only note that all of the discussions about money systems and power
          center around the thesis that there is a way to organize large groups of
          people, even world wide. I suspect that assumption needs a hard look.

          JW


          <http://www.thedailybell.com/1684/Anthony-Wile-with-Ellen-Brown-on-the-Effic
          iencies-of-the-State-and-the-Progress-of-Her-Public-Banking-Vision---.html>
          http://www.thedailybell.com/1684/Anthony-Wile-with-Ellen-Brown-on-the-Effici
          encies-of-the-State-and-the-Progress-of-Her-Public-Banking-Vision---.html





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • jw
          I suspect that ethical money systems require fairly similar people, the kind of problem the European Common Market is struggling with right now. The US, for
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 19, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            I suspect that ethical money systems require fairly similar people, the
            kind of problem the European Common Market is struggling with
            right now. The US, for example, may have too much diversity wrt
            economic development to be under a single currency. There may be
            gains for small groups to have their own currency, if the legal system
            will permit.

            JW

            On 1/19/2011 11:55 AM, Tom Wayburn wrote:
            >
            > JW,
            >
            > Are you implying that the people of the US - or any other nation state not
            > undergoing active rebellion - are not organized around the current
            > monetary
            > (economic) system? I would wish for no more organized group of people than
            > these except that they should be organized around a different system.
            >
            > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
            >
            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cyfranogi/message/2771;_ylc=X3oDMTJxazgwbzd1B
            > F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE2NjUzMTUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MzI5NzM0BG1zZ0lkAzI3NzEEc
            > 2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTI5NTQ0OTc1Ng--> Re: Rethinking economics
            >
            > Posted by: "jw"
            > <mailto:jdwasse@...
            > <mailto:jdwasse%40ripco.com>?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Rethinking%20economics>
            > jdwasse@... <mailto:jdwasse%40ripco.com>
            >
            > Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:46 am (PST)
            >
            > Andrius:
            >
            > Just for some background, you might look at this discussion (link below)
            > so you know what you are stepping into. This goes on forever. I can
            > only note that all of the discussions about money systems and power
            > center around the thesis that there is a way to organize large groups of
            > people, even world wide. I suspect that assumption needs a hard look.
            >
            > JW
            >
            > <http://www.thedailybell.com/1684/Anthony-Wile-with-Ellen-Brown-on-the-Effic
            > iencies-of-the-State-and-the-Progress-of-Her-Public-Banking-Vision---.html>
            > http://www.thedailybell.com/1684/Anthony-Wile-with-Ellen-Brown-on-the-Effici
            > encies-of-the-State-and-the-Progress-of-Her-Public-Banking-Vision---.html
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.