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Re: [cyfranogi] On The Money Local Currency- Chicago

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  • jw
    Hi. I am John Wassenaar. I did some writing on this list a while ago, but have been silent for a while. I am interested in the local currencies issue,
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 2, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi. I am John Wassenaar. I did some writing on this list a while ago,
      but have been silent for a while. I am
      interested in the local currencies issue, wonder if anyone knows of
      groups or individuals working in this area in
      the midwestern US, preferably Chicago. I have done some reading, am an
      economist by training, so also know
      where the pot holes are. Any help appreciated.

      JW

      On 6/22/2010 4:52 PM, John Rogers wrote:
      >
      > Dear
      > community currency supporter
      >
      > We think you may be interested in a very special event this
      > summer.
      > Findhorn
      > Ecovillage in Scotland is hosting 'On The Money - a
      > Vision Quest to the
      > Heart of Local Money', a five day workshop
      > for local currency designers from
      > August 14-18, 2010.
      >
      > Why
      > now?
      > Local
      > money will play a critical role in the transition to the resilient
      > communities of the future.
      > A few community
      > currencies have succeeded and lasted decades. Many have
      > not sustained themselves.
      > After
      > thousands of experiments around the world it is
      > time to apply the lessons learned to create a new generation of
      > sustainable systems.
      >
      > What does the workshop cover?
      >
      > * Why, What,
      > How, Who, Where and When of community currencies.
      > * How to get
      > past
      > the initial enthusiasm and idealism to create a system that lasts.
      > * How to
      > choose
      > the best design features.
      > * How to involve
      > your community in the development process.
      > * The
      > workshop will be high on methodology,
      > low in ideology, as we critically engage with existing models and
      > systems to identify what works best for your own situation.
      >
      > Who
      > is leading it?
      > John Rogers and Jonathan Dawson, both experienced
      > community currency acitivists and teachers.
      > With guest contributions from Richard Douthwaite, Margrit Kennedy
      > and Bernard Lietaer and other community currency practitioners.
      >
      > We
      > will
      > learn together how to channel the idealism and enthusiasm driving
      > community
      > currrencies into using the right tools to do the job of design
      > properly and create
      > a quantum
      > shift in practice.
      > Please check out the short video about the
      > workshop here: http://www.valueforpeople.co.uk/findhornworkshop
      >
      > Full
      > workshop details here:
      > http://www.findhorncollege.com/proftraining/moneysoul.php
      >
      > We
      > hope you can join us!
      >
      > Best
      > wishes
      >
      > John
      > Rogers, Value for People
      > Jonathan Dawson, Findhorn Ecovillage
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • John Rogers
      Hi John The best place to make this kind of request is on the CC Open Collective ongoing Skype conference. This is a gathering of CC activists who regularly
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 3, 2010
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        Hi John

        The best place to make this kind of request is on the CC Open Collective ongoing
        Skype conference. This is a gathering of CC activists who regularly post
        requests, observations and links.

        The CC Open Collective is an online forum (skype chat) for complementary
        currency practitioners, researchers and advocates. It is about 6 years old,
        and currently includes 120 people from around the world. Members share their
        knowledge, experiments and inquiries about complementary currencies, and draw
        one another’s attention to new developments in the field. As of August 2010,
        the chat generated about 700 pages of Microsoft Word notes, questions, and
        links. This learning community is open to anyone who can contribute to the
        development of the field of complementary currencies.
        The forum is moderated. If you would like to join, please contact Les Squires
        (skype name: LSquiresSkype) and briefly explain why you would like to
        participate. You will be invited into the chat and asked to introduce
        yourself. Newcomers will be coached as to the appropriateness of their
        interactions. Chatty talk is best communicated outside the group. The group
        has recently spun off a chat for programmers, and will consider additional
        discussions for other highly specialized topics.

        Best wishes

        John Rogers




        ________________________________
        From: jw <jdwasse@...>
        To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tue, 2 November, 2010 23:45:01
        Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] On The Money Local Currency- Chicago


        Hi. I am John Wassenaar. I did some writing on this list a while ago,
        but have been silent for a while. I am
        interested in the local currencies issue, wonder if anyone knows of
        groups or individuals working in this area in
        the midwestern US, preferably Chicago. I have done some reading, am an
        economist by training, so also know
        where the pot holes are. Any help appreciated.

        JW

        On 6/22/2010 4:52 PM, John Rogers wrote:
        >
        > Dear
        > community currency supporter
        >
        > We think you may be interested in a very special event this
        > summer.
        > Findhorn
        > Ecovillage in Scotland is hosting 'On The Money - a
        > Vision Quest to the
        > Heart of Local Money', a five day workshop
        > for local currency designers from
        > August 14-18, 2010.
        >
        > Why
        > now?
        > Local
        > money will play a critical role in the transition to the resilient
        > communities of the future.
        > A few community
        > currencies have succeeded and lasted decades. Many have
        > not sustained themselves.
        > After
        > thousands of experiments around the world it is
        > time to apply the lessons learned to create a new generation of
        > sustainable systems.
        >
        > What does the workshop cover?
        >
        > * Why, What,
        > How, Who, Where and When of community currencies.
        > * How to get
        > past
        > the initial enthusiasm and idealism to create a system that lasts.
        > * How to
        > choose
        > the best design features.
        > * How to involve
        > your community in the development process.
        > * The
        > workshop will be high on methodology,
        > low in ideology, as we critically engage with existing models and
        > systems to identify what works best for your own situation.
        >
        > Who
        > is leading it?
        > John Rogers and Jonathan Dawson, both experienced
        > community currency acitivists and teachers.
        > With guest contributions from Richard Douthwaite, Margrit Kennedy
        > and Bernard Lietaer and other community currency practitioners.
        >
        > We
        > will
        > learn together how to channel the idealism and enthusiasm driving
        > community
        > currrencies into using the right tools to do the job of design
        > properly and create
        > a quantum
        > shift in practice.
        > Please check out the short video about the
        > workshop here: http://www.valueforpeople.co.uk/findhornworkshop
        >
        > Full
        > workshop details here:
        > http://www.findhorncollege.com/proftraining/moneysoul.php
        >
        > We
        > hope you can join us!
        >
        > Best
        > wishes
        >
        > John
        > Rogers, Value for People
        > Jonathan Dawson, Findhorn Ecovillage
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Andrius Kulikauskas
        Hi John, I m currently in Chicago, living in Grand Crossing and working as a tutor in South Shore. In my free time, I m thinking about the ways I have figured
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 10, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi John,

          I'm currently in Chicago, living in Grand Crossing and working as a
          tutor in South Shore.

          In my free time, I'm thinking about the ways I have figured things out,
          about 200 so far. I'm hoping they might be the basis for a culture of
          independent thinkers, or in other words, Jesus's vision of the kingdom
          of heaven.

          Related to that, I'm writing a book "Math for Thinkers" for adult
          self-learners. Here are my notes:
          http://www.helproom.org/Value/DeepIdeas
          http://www.helproom.org/Value/MathForThinkers
          I'd like to include many examples of mathematical thinking that arise in
          analyzing our economic system.

          Last week I met with Michael Lucci, a recent graduate who is very
          interested in rethinking economics. He is studying the Austrian
          economists Friedrich Hayek and Ludwig von Mises. So we'll be writing
          and thinking about the principles of economics. Here are some notes
          from our meeting:
          http://www.helproom.org/Value/Economics

          In particular, I'd like to draw a conceptual map of the macro economy,
          researching the total amounts of money and wealth in various forms
          (stocks, bonds, loans, property, wages, taxes, etc.) and how they flow
          in the economy.

          I note that there is a "Toxic Textbooks" movement
          http://www.toxictextbooks.com to write post-crisis economics textbooks.

          Here's one helpful tool, the Wolfram Alpha answer engine, and an example
          that Michael is interested in, the relationship between the prices of
          gold and oil: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=gold+vs+oil

          I also alert Michael to Bernard Lietaer's book "The Future of Money"
          http://www.lietaer.com
          http://www.lietaer.com/writings/books/the-future-of-money/

          I want my book and related learning materials to be in the Public
          Domain, copyright-free.
          http://www.helproom.org/Value/Open
          I also want to make a living from this or related work. I think that
          should be possible, but will require great creativity and flexibility.
          I appreciate ideas. Here are some directions I'm working on:
          http://www.helproom.org/Value/BusinessIdeas

          John, I'm curious to learn more about your interests.

          Andrius

          Andrius Kulikauskas
          Minciu Sodas
          ms@...
          (773) 306-3807


          On 11/02/2010 05:45 PM, jw wrote:
          > Hi. I am John Wassenaar. I did some writing on this list a while ago,
          > but have been silent for a while. I am
          > interested in the local currencies issue, wonder if anyone knows of
          > groups or individuals working in this area in
          > the midwestern US, preferably Chicago. I have done some reading, am an
          > economist by training, so also know
          > where the pot holes are. Any help appreciated.
          >
          > JW
          >
          > On 6/22/2010 4:52 PM, John Rogers wrote:
          >> Dear
          >> community currency supporter
          >>
          >> We think you may be interested in a very special event this
          >> summer.
          >> Findhorn
          >> Ecovillage in Scotland is hosting 'On The Money - a
          >> Vision Quest to the
          >> Heart of Local Money', a five day workshop
          >> for local currency designers from
          >> August 14-18, 2010.
          >>
          >> Why
          >> now?
          >> Local
          >> money will play a critical role in the transition to the resilient
          >> communities of the future.
          >> A few community
          >> currencies have succeeded and lasted decades. Many have
          >> not sustained themselves.
          >> After
          >> thousands of experiments around the world it is
          >> time to apply the lessons learned to create a new generation of
          >> sustainable systems.
          >>
          >> What does the workshop cover?
          >>
          >> * Why, What,
          >> How, Who, Where and When of community currencies.
          >> * How to get
          >> past
          >> the initial enthusiasm and idealism to create a system that lasts.
          >> * How to
          >> choose
          >> the best design features.
          >> * How to involve
          >> your community in the development process.
          >> * The
          >> workshop will be high on methodology,
          >> low in ideology, as we critically engage with existing models and
          >> systems to identify what works best for your own situation.
          >>
          >> Who
          >> is leading it?
          >> John Rogers and Jonathan Dawson, both experienced
          >> community currency acitivists and teachers.
          >> With guest contributions from Richard Douthwaite, Margrit Kennedy
          >> and Bernard Lietaer and other community currency practitioners.
          >>
          >> We
          >> will
          >> learn together how to channel the idealism and enthusiasm driving
          >> community
          >> currrencies into using the right tools to do the job of design
          >> properly and create
          >> a quantum
          >> shift in practice.
          >> Please check out the short video about the
          >> workshop here: http://www.valueforpeople.co.uk/findhornworkshop
          >>
          >> Full
          >> workshop details here:
          >> http://www.findhorncollege.com/proftraining/moneysoul.php
          >>
          >> We
          >> hope you can join us!
          >>
          >> Best
          >> wishes
          >>
          >> John
          >> Rogers, Value for People
          >> Jonathan Dawson, Findhorn Ecovillage
          >>
          >>
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Each letter sent to cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
          > enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN whenever it does not state otherwise. http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org
          > Please be kind to our authors!
          >
          > Have a look at our wiki where we are creating an online learning environment for community currency: http://www.findbetterways.info/wiki.cgi?FindBetterWays/CommunityCurrency
          >
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: cyfranogi@...
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: cyfranogi-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • John Rogers
          Hi Andrius I think you are replying to John Wassenaar s post below but I ll just butt in to say that if you are rethinking economics then forget about Hayek
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 11, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Andrius

            I think you are replying to John Wassenaar's post below but I'll just butt in to
            say that if you are 'rethinking economics' then forget about Hayek and von
            Mises, whose ideas are partly responsible for current messes through blind
            belief in unfettered, unregulated markets. Hayek's best idea was allowing a
            multiplicity of currencies to challenge the current hegemony of government fiat
            currencies.

            Best places to start would be:
            Hazel Henderson - one of the planet's finest systems thinkers:
            http://www.hazelhenderson.com/

            Glad to see you list Edward Fullbrook and Toxic Textbooks. Here's his paper 'How
            to bring economics into the 3rd millennium by 2020':
            http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue54/Fullbrook54.pdf

            It is on the site of the Post Autistic Economics Movement, started by French
            economics students in 2000: http://www.paecon.net/

            They publish a regular journal called Real World Economics
            Review:http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/

            John Rogers




            ________________________________
            From: Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@...>
            To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com; livingbytruth@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wed, 10 November, 2010 16:15:52
            Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: On The Money Local Currency - Chicago


            Hi John,

            I'm currently in Chicago, living in Grand Crossing and working as a
            tutor in South Shore.

            In my free time, I'm thinking about the ways I have figured things out,
            about 200 so far. I'm hoping they might be the basis for a culture of
            independent thinkers, or in other words, Jesus's vision of the kingdom
            of heaven.

            Related to that, I'm writing a book "Math for Thinkers" for adult
            self-learners. Here are my notes:
            http://www.helproom.org/Value/DeepIdeas
            http://www.helproom.org/Value/MathForThinkers
            I'd like to include many examples of mathematical thinking that arise in
            analyzing our economic system.

            Last week I met with Michael Lucci, a recent graduate who is very
            interested in rethinking economics. He is studying the Austrian
            economists Friedrich Hayek and Ludwig von Mises. So we'll be writing
            and thinking about the principles of economics. Here are some notes
            from our meeting:
            http://www.helproom.org/Value/Economics

            In particular, I'd like to draw a conceptual map of the macro economy,
            researching the total amounts of money and wealth in various forms
            (stocks, bonds, loans, property, wages, taxes, etc.) and how they flow
            in the economy.

            I note that there is a "Toxic Textbooks" movement
            http://www.toxictextbooks.com to write post-crisis economics textbooks.

            Here's one helpful tool, the Wolfram Alpha answer engine, and an example
            that Michael is interested in, the relationship between the prices of
            gold and oil: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=gold+vs+oil

            I also alert Michael to Bernard Lietaer's book "The Future of Money"
            http://www.lietaer.com
            http://www.lietaer.com/writings/books/the-future-of-money/

            I want my book and related learning materials to be in the Public
            Domain, copyright-free.
            http://www.helproom.org/Value/Open
            I also want to make a living from this or related work. I think that
            should be possible, but will require great creativity and flexibility.
            I appreciate ideas. Here are some directions I'm working on:
            http://www.helproom.org/Value/BusinessIdeas

            John, I'm curious to learn more about your interests.

            Andrius

            Andrius Kulikauskas
            Minciu Sodas
            ms@...
            (773) 306-3807

            On 11/02/2010 05:45 PM, jw wrote:
            > Hi. I am John Wassenaar. I did some writing on this list a while ago,
            > but have been silent for a while. I am
            > interested in the local currencies issue, wonder if anyone knows of
            > groups or individuals working in this area in
            > the midwestern US, preferably Chicago. I have done some reading, am an
            > economist by training, so also know
            > where the pot holes are. Any help appreciated.
            >
            > JW
            >
            > On 6/22/2010 4:52 PM, John Rogers wrote:
            >> Dear
            >> community currency supporter
            >>
            >> We think you may be interested in a very special event this
            >> summer.
            >> Findhorn
            >> Ecovillage in Scotland is hosting 'On The Money - a
            >> Vision Quest to the
            >> Heart of Local Money', a five day workshop
            >> for local currency designers from
            >> August 14-18, 2010.
            >>
            >> Why
            >> now?
            >> Local
            >> money will play a critical role in the transition to the resilient
            >> communities of the future.
            >> A few community
            >> currencies have succeeded and lasted decades. Many have
            >> not sustained themselves.
            >> After
            >> thousands of experiments around the world it is
            >> time to apply the lessons learned to create a new generation of
            >> sustainable systems.
            >>
            >> What does the workshop cover?
            >>
            >> * Why, What,
            >> How, Who, Where and When of community currencies.
            >> * How to get
            >> past
            >> the initial enthusiasm and idealism to create a system that lasts.
            >> * How to
            >> choose
            >> the best design features.
            >> * How to involve
            >> your community in the development process.
            >> * The
            >> workshop will be high on methodology,
            >> low in ideology, as we critically engage with existing models and
            >> systems to identify what works best for your own situation.
            >>
            >> Who
            >> is leading it?
            >> John Rogers and Jonathan Dawson, both experienced
            >> community currency acitivists and teachers.
            >> With guest contributions from Richard Douthwaite, Margrit Kennedy
            >> and Bernard Lietaer and other community currency practitioners.
            >>
            >> We
            >> will
            >> learn together how to channel the idealism and enthusiasm driving
            >> community
            >> currrencies into using the right tools to do the job of design
            >> properly and create
            >> a quantum
            >> shift in practice.
            >> Please check out the short video about the
            >> workshop here: http://www.valueforpeople.co.uk/findhornworkshop
            >>
            >> Full
            >> workshop details here:
            >> http://www.findhorncollege.com/proftraining/moneysoul.php
            >>
            >> We
            >> hope you can join us!
            >>
            >> Best
            >> wishes
            >>
            >> John
            >> Rogers, Value for People
            >> Jonathan Dawson, Findhorn Ecovillage
            >>
            >>
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Each letter sent to cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
            > enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN whenever it does not state otherwise.
            >http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org
            > Please be kind to our authors!
            >
            > Have a look at our wiki where we are creating an online learning environment
            >for community currency:
            >http://www.findbetterways.info/wiki.cgi?FindBetterWays/CommunityCurrency
            >
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to: cyfranogi@...
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            >cyfranogi-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Meredith L. Patterson
            ... I think it s just as fair to say forget about John Maynard Keynes, whose ideas are also partially responsible for current messes through blind belief in
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 11, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 11:31 PM, John Rogers <atholl2003@...>wrote:

              >
              >
              > Hi Andrius
              >
              > I think you are replying to John Wassenaar's post below but I'll just butt
              > in to
              > say that if you are 'rethinking economics' then forget about Hayek and von
              > Mises, whose ideas are partly responsible for current messes through blind
              > belief in unfettered, unregulated markets.
              >

              I think it's just as fair to say forget about John Maynard Keynes, whose
              ideas are also partially responsible for current messes through blind belief
              in money supply inflation and the hyperextension of credit.

              I suppose if you take Hayek's ideas and completely leave out everything in
              them that has to do with externalities then you end up with a mess rather
              like the one we're in. Which, as near as I can tell, is pretty much *exactly
              what happened*.


              > Hayek's best idea was allowing a
              > multiplicity of currencies to challenge the current hegemony of government
              > fiat
              > currencies.
              >

              It's needed to happen for a long time. Recently I've heard of a few software
              projects that are headed in this direction, incidentally.

              Cheers,
              --mlp


              > Best places to start would be:
              > Hazel Henderson - one of the planet's finest systems thinkers:
              > http://www.hazelhenderson.com/
              >
              > Glad to see you list Edward Fullbrook and Toxic Textbooks. Here's his paper
              > 'How
              > to bring economics into the 3rd millennium by 2020':
              > http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue54/Fullbrook54.pdf
              >
              > It is on the site of the Post Autistic Economics Movement, started by
              > French
              > economics students in 2000: http://www.paecon.net/
              >
              > They publish a regular journal called Real World Economics
              > Review:http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/
              >
              > John Rogers
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@... <ms%40ms.lt>>
              > To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com <cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com>;
              > livingbytruth@yahoogroups.com <livingbytruth%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Wed, 10 November, 2010 16:15:52
              > Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: On The Money Local Currency - Chicago
              >
              >
              > Hi John,
              >
              > I'm currently in Chicago, living in Grand Crossing and working as a
              > tutor in South Shore.
              >
              > In my free time, I'm thinking about the ways I have figured things out,
              > about 200 so far. I'm hoping they might be the basis for a culture of
              > independent thinkers, or in other words, Jesus's vision of the kingdom
              > of heaven.
              >
              > Related to that, I'm writing a book "Math for Thinkers" for adult
              > self-learners. Here are my notes:
              > http://www.helproom.org/Value/DeepIdeas
              > http://www.helproom.org/Value/MathForThinkers
              > I'd like to include many examples of mathematical thinking that arise in
              > analyzing our economic system.
              >
              > Last week I met with Michael Lucci, a recent graduate who is very
              > interested in rethinking economics. He is studying the Austrian
              > economists Friedrich Hayek and Ludwig von Mises. So we'll be writing
              > and thinking about the principles of economics. Here are some notes
              > from our meeting:
              > http://www.helproom.org/Value/Economics
              >
              > In particular, I'd like to draw a conceptual map of the macro economy,
              > researching the total amounts of money and wealth in various forms
              > (stocks, bonds, loans, property, wages, taxes, etc.) and how they flow
              > in the economy.
              >
              > I note that there is a "Toxic Textbooks" movement
              > http://www.toxictextbooks.com to write post-crisis economics textbooks.
              >
              > Here's one helpful tool, the Wolfram Alpha answer engine, and an example
              > that Michael is interested in, the relationship between the prices of
              > gold and oil: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=gold+vs+oil
              >
              > I also alert Michael to Bernard Lietaer's book "The Future of Money"
              > http://www.lietaer.com
              > http://www.lietaer.com/writings/books/the-future-of-money/
              >
              > I want my book and related learning materials to be in the Public
              > Domain, copyright-free.
              > http://www.helproom.org/Value/Open
              > I also want to make a living from this or related work. I think that
              > should be possible, but will require great creativity and flexibility.
              > I appreciate ideas. Here are some directions I'm working on:
              > http://www.helproom.org/Value/BusinessIdeas
              >
              > John, I'm curious to learn more about your interests.
              >
              > Andrius
              >
              > Andrius Kulikauskas
              > Minciu Sodas
              > ms@... <ms%40ms.lt>
              > (773) 306-3807
              >
              > On 11/02/2010 05:45 PM, jw wrote:
              > > Hi. I am John Wassenaar. I did some writing on this list a while ago,
              > > but have been silent for a while. I am
              > > interested in the local currencies issue, wonder if anyone knows of
              > > groups or individuals working in this area in
              > > the midwestern US, preferably Chicago. I have done some reading, am an
              > > economist by training, so also know
              > > where the pot holes are. Any help appreciated.
              > >
              > > JW
              > >
              > > On 6/22/2010 4:52 PM, John Rogers wrote:
              > >> Dear
              > >> community currency supporter
              > >>
              > >> We think you may be interested in a very special event this
              > >> summer.
              > >> Findhorn
              > >> Ecovillage in Scotland is hosting 'On The Money - a
              > >> Vision Quest to the
              > >> Heart of Local Money', a five day workshop
              > >> for local currency designers from
              > >> August 14-18, 2010.
              > >>
              > >> Why
              > >> now?
              > >> Local
              > >> money will play a critical role in the transition to the resilient
              > >> communities of the future.
              > >> A few community
              > >> currencies have succeeded and lasted decades. Many have
              > >> not sustained themselves.
              > >> After
              > >> thousands of experiments around the world it is
              > >> time to apply the lessons learned to create a new generation of
              > >> sustainable systems.
              > >>
              > >> What does the workshop cover?
              > >>
              > >> * Why, What,
              > >> How, Who, Where and When of community currencies.
              > >> * How to get
              > >> past
              > >> the initial enthusiasm and idealism to create a system that lasts.
              > >> * How to
              > >> choose
              > >> the best design features.
              > >> * How to involve
              > >> your community in the development process.
              > >> * The
              > >> workshop will be high on methodology,
              > >> low in ideology, as we critically engage with existing models and
              > >> systems to identify what works best for your own situation.
              > >>
              > >> Who
              > >> is leading it?
              > >> John Rogers and Jonathan Dawson, both experienced
              > >> community currency acitivists and teachers.
              > >> With guest contributions from Richard Douthwaite, Margrit Kennedy
              > >> and Bernard Lietaer and other community currency practitioners.
              > >>
              > >> We
              > >> will
              > >> learn together how to channel the idealism and enthusiasm driving
              > >> community
              > >> currrencies into using the right tools to do the job of design
              > >> properly and create
              > >> a quantum
              > >> shift in practice.
              > >> Please check out the short video about the
              > >> workshop here: http://www.valueforpeople.co.uk/findhornworkshop
              > >>
              > >> Full
              > >> workshop details here:
              > >> http://www.findhorncollege.com/proftraining/moneysoul.php
              > >>
              > >> We
              > >> hope you can join us!
              > >>
              > >> Best
              > >> wishes
              > >>
              > >> John
              > >> Rogers, Value for People
              > >> Jonathan Dawson, Findhorn Ecovillage
              > >>
              > >>
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Each letter sent to cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com<cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN whenever it does not state otherwise.
              > >http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org
              > > Please be kind to our authors!
              > >
              > > Have a look at our wiki where we are creating an online learning
              > environment
              > >for community currency:
              > >http://www.findbetterways.info/wiki.cgi?FindBetterWays/CommunityCurrency
              > >
              > >
              > > To Post a message, send it to: cyfranogi@...<cyfranogi%40yahooGroups.com>
              > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              > >cyfranogi-unsubscribe@...<cyfranogi-unsubscribe%40yahooGroups.comYahoo>!
              > Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Andrius Kulikauskas
              John Rogers, Meredith Patterson, Thank you for your letters at John s group Cyfranogi, which I also share at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 11, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,

                Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also share
                at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
                look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.

                Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester. Perry
                gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking. I learned that
                there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers. Here
                are some of the books:
                * "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
                * "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
                Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
                * "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
                by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
                * "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
                with others.
                And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and postmodern
                age.

                Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me? It's
                great! Thank you.

                I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
                http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
                I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
                such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
                Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
                * Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
                * Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
                * Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
                * Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
                * World bond market: 82 trillion USD
                Per Year:
                * Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
                * Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
                * US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
                * Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
                * Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
                * World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)

                This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                useful information?

                Andrius

                Andrius Kulikauskas
                Minciu Sodas
                http://www.helproom.org
                (773) 306-3807


                On 11/11/2010 05:42 PM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
                > On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 11:31 PM, John Rogers<atholl2003@...>wrote:
                >
                >> Hi Andrius
                >>
                >> I think you are replying to John Wassenaar's post below but I'll just butt
                >> in to
                >> say that if you are 'rethinking economics' then forget about Hayek and von
                >> Mises, whose ideas are partly responsible for current messes through blind
                >> belief in unfettered, unregulated markets.
                > I think it's just as fair to say forget about John Maynard Keynes, whose
                > ideas are also partially responsible for current messes through blind belief
                > in money supply inflation and the hyperextension of credit.
                >
                > I suppose if you take Hayek's ideas and completely leave out everything in
                > them that has to do with externalities then you end up with a mess rather
                > like the one we're in. Which, as near as I can tell, is pretty much *exactly
                > what happened*.
                >
                >> Hayek's best idea was allowing a
                >> multiplicity of currencies to challenge the current hegemony of government
                >> fiat
                >> currencies.
                >>
                > It's needed to happen for a long time. Recently I've heard of a few software
                > projects that are headed in this direction, incidentally.
                >
                > Cheers,
                > --mlp
                >
                >
                >> Best places to start would be:
                >> Hazel Henderson - one of the planet's finest systems thinkers:
                >> http://www.hazelhenderson.com/
                >>
                >> Glad to see you list Edward Fullbrook and Toxic Textbooks. Here's his paper
                >> 'How
                >> to bring economics into the 3rd millennium by 2020':
                >> http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue54/Fullbrook54.pdf
                >>
                >> It is on the site of the Post Autistic Economics Movement, started by
                >> French
                >> economics students in 2000: http://www.paecon.net/
                >>
                >> They publish a regular journal called Real World Economics
                >> Review:http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/
                >>
                >> John Rogers
              • Meredith L. Patterson
                Andrius, Check out http://www.gapminder.org/ and Hans Rosling s amazing TED talk about it,
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 12, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Andrius,

                  Check out http://www.gapminder.org/ and Hans Rosling's amazing TED talk
                  about it,
                  http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html.
                  It's a tool for tracking statistical and economic data over time. Much of
                  the data they have (http://www.gapminder.org/data/) has to do with health
                  and wellness, but you'll also find things like the consumer price index,
                  energy usage per person, external debt per person, GDP per capita, working
                  hours per week and so on.

                  Cheers,
                  --mlp

                  On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,
                  >
                  > Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also share
                  > at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
                  > look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.
                  >
                  > Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester. Perry
                  > gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking. I learned that
                  > there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers. Here
                  > are some of the books:
                  > * "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
                  > * "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
                  > Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
                  > * "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
                  > by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
                  > * "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
                  > with others.
                  > And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and postmodern
                  > age.
                  >
                  > Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me? It's
                  > great! Thank you.
                  >
                  > I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
                  > http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
                  > I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
                  > such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
                  > Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
                  > * Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
                  > * Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
                  > * Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
                  > * Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
                  > * World bond market: 82 trillion USD
                  > Per Year:
                  > * Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
                  > * Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
                  > * US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
                  > * Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
                  > * Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
                  > * World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)
                  >
                  > This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                  > system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                  > useful information?
                  >
                  > Andrius
                  >
                  > Andrius Kulikauskas
                  > Minciu Sodas
                  > http://www.helproom.org
                  > (773) 306-3807
                  >
                  > On 11/11/2010 05:42 PM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
                  > > On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 11:31 PM, John Rogers<atholl2003@...<atholl2003%40yahoo.co.uk>
                  > >wrote:
                  > >
                  > >> Hi Andrius
                  > >>
                  > >> I think you are replying to John Wassenaar's post below but I'll just
                  > butt
                  > >> in to
                  > >> say that if you are 'rethinking economics' then forget about Hayek and
                  > von
                  > >> Mises, whose ideas are partly responsible for current messes through
                  > blind
                  > >> belief in unfettered, unregulated markets.
                  > > I think it's just as fair to say forget about John Maynard Keynes, whose
                  > > ideas are also partially responsible for current messes through blind
                  > belief
                  > > in money supply inflation and the hyperextension of credit.
                  > >
                  > > I suppose if you take Hayek's ideas and completely leave out everything
                  > in
                  > > them that has to do with externalities then you end up with a mess rather
                  > > like the one we're in. Which, as near as I can tell, is pretty much
                  > *exactly
                  > > what happened*.
                  > >
                  > >> Hayek's best idea was allowing a
                  > >> multiplicity of currencies to challenge the current hegemony of
                  > government
                  > >> fiat
                  > >> currencies.
                  > >>
                  > > It's needed to happen for a long time. Recently I've heard of a few
                  > software
                  > > projects that are headed in this direction, incidentally.
                  > >
                  > > Cheers,
                  > > --mlp
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >> Best places to start would be:
                  > >> Hazel Henderson - one of the planet's finest systems thinkers:
                  > >> http://www.hazelhenderson.com/
                  > >>
                  > >> Glad to see you list Edward Fullbrook and Toxic Textbooks. Here's his
                  > paper
                  > >> 'How
                  > >> to bring economics into the 3rd millennium by 2020':
                  > >> http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue54/Fullbrook54.pdf
                  > >>
                  > >> It is on the site of the Post Autistic Economics Movement, started by
                  > >> French
                  > >> economics students in 2000: http://www.paecon.net/
                  > >>
                  > >> They publish a regular journal called Real World Economics
                  > >> Review:http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/
                  > >>
                  > >> John Rogers
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ralf Schlatterbeck
                  ... You might want to directly look at the reports from the International Monetary Fund for things like global Gross Domestic Product (GDP) data (also for
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 12, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 01:28:06AM -0600, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
                    > This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                    > system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                    > useful information?
                    You might want to directly look at the reports from the International
                    Monetary Fund for things like global Gross Domestic Product (GDP) data
                    (also for different countries) although we all know here that GDP isn't
                    really a very good indicator.
                    http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/weodata/index.aspx

                    Or for other economic data (like derivatives) you might want to look at
                    the reports from the Bank for International Settlements
                    http://www.bis.org, they produce quarterly reports in PDF format where
                    you get a lot of interesting numbers. You should get the "Statistical
                    annex" to the "BIS Quarterly Review"
                    http://www.bis.org/publ/quarterly.htm

                    Some time ago I used these sources to plot GDP vs money held in
                    derivatives (graphics attached). This clearly shows how fragile the
                    whole interest system has become... the text in the graphics is in
                    german, "Milliarden" = "Billion", "Derivate" = "Derivatives",
                    "Weltsozialprodukt" = "World Gross Domestic Product", and yes: the
                    highest point in the red curve is really almost 700000 Billion = 700
                    Trillion US$...

                    Ralf
                    --
                    Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck Tel: +43/2243/26465-16
                    Open Source Consulting www: http://www.runtux.com
                    Reichergasse 131 email: office@...
                    A-3411 Weidling
                    osAlliance member email: rsc@...


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ralf Schlatterbeck
                    ... Do you have a list of these online somewhere or can post to the list? I m collecting information on these issues, we are a group here who research the
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 12, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 12:42:49AM +0100, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
                      >
                      > It's needed to happen for a long time. Recently I've heard of a few software
                      > projects that are headed in this direction, incidentally.

                      Do you have a list of these online somewhere or can post to the list?
                      I'm collecting information on these issues, we are a group here who
                      research the possibilities of a p2p money system -- similar to what is
                      established for file-sharing where initial systems where centralized
                      (like Napster) and later decentralised systems like Gnutella were built.

                      Thanks,
                      Ralf
                      --
                      Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck Tel: +43/2243/26465-16
                      Open Source Consulting www: http://www.runtux.com
                      Reichergasse 131 email: office@...
                      A-3411 Weidling
                      osAlliance member email: rsc@...
                    • Andrius Kulikauskas
                      Meredith, Ralf, Thank you! I share your letters and links. Meredith, http://www.gapminder.org is truly impressive. I saw a nice chart of life expectancy vs.
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 12, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Meredith, Ralf, Thank you! I share your letters and links.

                        Meredith, http://www.gapminder.org is truly impressive.

                        I saw a nice chart of life expectancy vs. wealth for all the nations
                        which you could then view over 200 years as a video.

                        Then I saw that there are 438 different statistics. There's a few for
                        "Economy"=>"Economic Situation" such as Tax revenues as percentage of GDP.

                        What's great is that you can compare any two statistics and make a
                        chart. For example, you can study alcohol consumption or murder rates etc.

                        It's also possible to compare US states, EU countries, China's provinces
                        and India's states with countries of the world:
                        http://www.gapminder.org/labs/

                        What this makes clear to me for my book is that I should really focus on
                        the ideas in math, for example, how to use such a resource, rather than
                        trying to take its place.

                        Still, I'm wondering if there's a resource that illustrates the global
                        or national macroeconomy, the forms of wealth and how they flow from one
                        to another. I found this site:
                        http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/macroeconomics.html
                        Here's an example applet:
                        http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/tutor/circularflow_applet.html

                        Thank you!

                        Andrius Kulikauskas, Minciu Sodas, http://www.helproom.org, (773) 306-3807


                        On 11/12/2010 05:16 AM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
                        > Andrius,
                        >
                        > Check out http://www.gapminder.org/ and Hans Rosling's amazing TED talk
                        > about it,
                        > http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html.
                        > It's a tool for tracking statistical and economic data over time. Much of
                        > the data they have (http://www.gapminder.org/data/) has to do with health
                        > and wellness, but you'll also find things like the consumer price index,
                        > energy usage per person, external debt per person, GDP per capita, working
                        > hours per week and so on.
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        > --mlp

                        On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 01:28:06AM -0600, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
                        > > This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                        > > system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                        > > useful information?
                        You might want to directly look at the reports from the International
                        Monetary Fund for things like global Gross Domestic Product (GDP) data
                        (also for different countries) although we all know here that GDP isn't
                        really a very good indicator.
                        http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/weodata/index.aspx

                        Or for other economic data (like derivatives) you might want to look at
                        the reports from the Bank for International Settlements
                        http://www.bis.org, they produce quarterly reports in PDF format where
                        you get a lot of interesting numbers. You should get the "Statistical
                        annex" to the "BIS Quarterly Review"
                        http://www.bis.org/publ/quarterly.htm

                        Some time ago I used these sources to plot GDP vs money held in
                        derivatives (graphics attached). This clearly shows how fragile the
                        whole interest system has become... the text in the graphics is in
                        german, "Milliarden" = "Billion", "Derivate" = "Derivatives",
                        "Weltsozialprodukt" = "World Gross Domestic Product", and yes: the
                        highest point in the red curve is really almost 700000 Billion = 700
                        Trillion US$...

                        Ralf
                        -- Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck Tel: +43/2243/26465-16 Open Source Consulting
                        www: http://www.runtux.com Reichergasse 131 email: office@...
                        A-3411 Weidling osAlliance member email: rsc@...

                        > On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >> John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,
                        >>
                        >> Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also share
                        >> at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
                        >> look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.
                        >>
                        >> Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester. Perry
                        >> gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking. I learned that
                        >> there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers. Here
                        >> are some of the books:
                        >> * "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
                        >> * "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
                        >> Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
                        >> * "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
                        >> by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
                        >> * "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
                        >> with others.
                        >> And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and postmodern
                        >> age.
                        >>
                        >> Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me? It's
                        >> great! Thank you.
                        >>
                        >> I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
                        >> http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
                        >> I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
                        >> such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
                        >> Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
                        >> * Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
                        >> * Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
                        >> * Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
                        >> * Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
                        >> * World bond market: 82 trillion USD
                        >> Per Year:
                        >> * Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
                        >> * Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
                        >> * US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
                        >> * Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
                        >> * Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
                        >> * World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)
                        >>
                        >> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                        >> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                        >> useful information?
                        >>
                        >> Andrius
                        >>
                        >> Andrius Kulikauskas
                        >> Minciu Sodas
                        >> http://www.helproom.org
                        >> (773) 306-3807
                        >>
                      • John Rogers
                        Andrius, Meredith, Ralf, John Great to see some activity in this group again after so long silence! If we want to rethink economics then we need to go back to
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 13, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Andrius, Meredith, Ralf, John

                          Great to see some activity in this group again after so long silence!

                          If we want to rethink economics then we need to go back to basics.

                          The first thing that strikes me about Andrius's list of global economic figures
                          - the 'world's wealth' - is that the planet itself and all its 'free'
                          'eco-system services' is missing.


                          I prefer to listen to the voices of Native peoples to get some insights here:

                          "Only when the last tree has died, the last river has been poisoned and the
                          last fish has been caught will we realize that we cannot eat money." Cree
                          Indian Proverb

                          Or more enlightened Western thinkers such as Herman Daly, founder of ecological
                          economics:
                          "The economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment, not the reverse."

                          The word 'economy' is ancient Greek meaning 'rules of the household' ie
                          balancing what comes in with what goes out. The word 'ecology' is the study of
                          our planetary 'house'. So both economics and ecology are about balance within
                          finite systems.

                          But what we think of as economics only emerged in the 18th century with people
                          like Adam Smith and 'The Wealth of Nations' and the tradition of neo-classical
                          and neo-liberal economics that grew out of it. This tradition has effectively
                          staged a coup of university economics teaching which is now dominated by fancy
                          mathematics masking vested interests and is really what Hazel Henderson called
                          'politics in disguise'.


                          It is why the economics students of Paris staged a mini-revolution in the world
                          of academic economics in the year 2000 to start the Post Autistic Economics
                          movement and argue for an economics in touch with the real world of planetary
                          limits and human communities. In other words, paying attention to the true
                          effects of externalities and asking what we are going to do about them to bring
                          about resilience, survival and sustainability. Economics Professors like Edward
                          Fullbrook and his Toxic Textbooks movement are playing a part in this
                          revolution.

                          The other essential point that Hazel Henderson, Marilyn Waring and Edgar Cahn
                          have made is the importance of what we measure. For instance, if we only measure
                          things as wealth, growth and progress that have dollar signs against them, then
                          we are doomed to damage all the things that make us truly happy such as a
                          healthy physical, emotional and intellectual environment. It is truly absurd
                          that locking people up in prisons or old peoples' homes registers as 'growth'
                          because it creates jobs and building contracts when what it actually reflects is
                          the sickness of societies that cannot create healthy environments.

                          Check out:
                          Hazel Henderson's Quality of Life indicators:
                          http://www.ethicalmarkets.com/about/calvert-henderson-quality-of-life-indicators/


                          Marilyn Waring's work: http://marilynwaring.com/index.html

                          Edgar Cahn on co-production and time banking: http://www.timebanks.org/
                          Watch the 15 minute video of him on the home page talking about the Core
                          Economy.


                          John Rogers



                          ________________________________
                          From: Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@...>
                          To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com; livingbytruth@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Fri, 12 November, 2010 17:01:41
                          Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: Rethinking economics


                          Meredith, Ralf, Thank you! I share your letters and links.

                          Meredith, http://www.gapminder.org is truly impressive.

                          I saw a nice chart of life expectancy vs. wealth for all the nations
                          which you could then view over 200 years as a video.

                          Then I saw that there are 438 different statistics. There's a few for
                          "Economy"=>"Economic Situation" such as Tax revenues as percentage of GDP.

                          What's great is that you can compare any two statistics and make a
                          chart. For example, you can study alcohol consumption or murder rates etc.

                          It's also possible to compare US states, EU countries, China's provinces
                          and India's states with countries of the world:
                          http://www.gapminder.org/labs/

                          What this makes clear to me for my book is that I should really focus on
                          the ideas in math, for example, how to use such a resource, rather than
                          trying to take its place.

                          Still, I'm wondering if there's a resource that illustrates the global
                          or national macroeconomy, the forms of wealth and how they flow from one
                          to another. I found this site:
                          http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/macroeconomics.html
                          Here's an example applet:
                          http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/tutor/circularflow_applet.html

                          Thank you!

                          Andrius Kulikauskas, Minciu Sodas, http://www.helproom.org, (773) 306-3807

                          On 11/12/2010 05:16 AM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
                          > Andrius,
                          >
                          > Check out http://www.gapminder.org/ and Hans Rosling's amazing TED talk
                          > about it,
                          >http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html.
                          >.
                          > It's a tool for tracking statistical and economic data over time. Much of
                          > the data they have (http://www.gapminder.org/data/) has to do with health
                          > and wellness, but you'll also find things like the consumer price index,
                          > energy usage per person, external debt per person, GDP per capita, working
                          > hours per week and so on.
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          > --mlp

                          On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 01:28:06AM -0600, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
                          > > This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                          > > system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                          > > useful information?
                          You might want to directly look at the reports from the International
                          Monetary Fund for things like global Gross Domestic Product (GDP) data
                          (also for different countries) although we all know here that GDP isn't
                          really a very good indicator.
                          http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/weodata/index.aspx

                          Or for other economic data (like derivatives) you might want to look at
                          the reports from the Bank for International Settlements
                          http://www.bis.org, they produce quarterly reports in PDF format where
                          you get a lot of interesting numbers. You should get the "Statistical
                          annex" to the "BIS Quarterly Review"
                          http://www.bis.org/publ/quarterly.htm

                          Some time ago I used these sources to plot GDP vs money held in
                          derivatives (graphics attached). This clearly shows how fragile the
                          whole interest system has become... the text in the graphics is in
                          german, "Milliarden" = "Billion", "Derivate" = "Derivatives",
                          "Weltsozialprodukt" = "World Gross Domestic Product", and yes: the
                          highest point in the red curve is really almost 700000 Billion = 700
                          Trillion US$...

                          Ralf
                          -- Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck Tel: +43/2243/26465-16 Open Source Consulting
                          www: http://www.runtux.com Reichergasse 131 email: office@...
                          A-3411 Weidling osAlliance member email: rsc@...

                          > On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >> John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,
                          >>
                          >> Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also share
                          >> at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
                          >> look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.
                          >>
                          >> Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester. Perry
                          >> gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking. I learned that
                          >> there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers. Here
                          >> are some of the books:
                          >> * "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
                          >> * "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
                          >> Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
                          >> * "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
                          >> by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
                          >> * "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
                          >> with others.
                          >> And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and postmodern
                          >> age.
                          >>
                          >> Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me? It's
                          >> great! Thank you.
                          >>
                          >> I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
                          >> http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
                          >> I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
                          >> such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
                          >> Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
                          >> * Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
                          >> * Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
                          >> * Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
                          >> * Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
                          >> * World bond market: 82 trillion USD
                          >> Per Year:
                          >> * Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
                          >> * Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
                          >> * US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
                          >> * Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
                          >> * Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
                          >> * World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)
                          >>
                          >> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                          >> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                          >> useful information?
                          >>
                          >> Andrius
                          >>
                          >> Andrius Kulikauskas
                          >> Minciu Sodas
                          >> http://www.helproom.org
                          >> (773) 306-3807
                          >>






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Benoit Couture
                          Salut John and everyone,   As a family, our lives has been taken to the front line of rethinking economics  of our local context.  Here s a note I just
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 13, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Salut John and everyone,
                             
                            As a family, our lives has been taken to the front line of "rethinking economics" of our local context.  Here's a note I just sent along with a petition that asks for the Canadian gov to include disabilities in all of their foreign efforts and contributions for aid:
                            http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/123/047/860/?z00m=19910612
                             
                             
                            "Our daughter was born wheelchair bound for ever, from a genetic spinal condition.
                            That was in 1985 in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, one year after the provincial government of Alberta adopted a "family first" policy, in regards to individuals born with chronic disabilities. 
                            In practise, such policy means releasing people born with disability, from enforced institutionalization by the State.
                            The idea was to support these people at home, in their respective families, instead of keeping them in a building with paid staff to care for them, throughout of their lives.
                             
                            Apart from keeping the families of those individuals as patients while pretending to be in partnership with them, all is well, from the political point of view of showing improvements over the past system.
                            While Canada goes on exporting help and support abroad, I wonder, why don't we first reach the completion of Alberta's social experiment, and THEN export our expertise.

                            In short, what we need to see for disabled people is what we need to see for the whole society when it comes to social policy, namely, we need to a vision and the knowledge of becoming part of the universal social policy that genuinely serves Health-Education-Correction in the sanctity of ongoing reconciliation of each with all and of all with each.

                            After 25 years of this " growing partnership",  my prayer and hope are for the governments and agencies who serve such worthy movement as extended health care and education, to realize how significant is the waste of such vital essence as the family, so that we all may get to be and to become a whole lot more invested into one another's well being...Amen to God's Yes in us all..."
                             
                            Benoit
                             
                            Ps:  In order to serve such a universal social policy as a co-ordinated Health-Education-Correction that I propose, we need to begin its implemetation by training yhe coming together of professionals and families, from early on at school and in community centres, in the apprenticeship of accessing services in a gradual sequence of "patient-client-partner", so as to progressively develop the personal and communal sense of responsibility in all knowledge and maturity.
                             

                            --- On Sat, 11/13/10, John Rogers <atholl2003@...> wrote:


                            From: John Rogers <atholl2003@...>
                            Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Re: Rethinking economics
                            To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                            Received: Saturday, November 13, 2010, 4:20 AM


                             



                            Andrius, Meredith, Ralf, John

                            Great to see some activity in this group again after so long silence!

                            If we want to rethink economics then we need to go back to basics.

                            The first thing that strikes me about Andrius's list of global economic figures
                            - the 'world's wealth' - is that the planet itself and all its 'free'
                            'eco-system services' is missing.

                            I prefer to listen to the voices of Native peoples to get some insights here:

                            "Only when the last tree has died, the last river has been poisoned and the
                            last fish has been caught will we realize that we cannot eat money." Cree
                            Indian Proverb

                            Or more enlightened Western thinkers such as Herman Daly, founder of ecological
                            economics:
                            "The economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment, not the reverse."

                            The word 'economy' is ancient Greek meaning 'rules of the household' ie
                            balancing what comes in with what goes out. The word 'ecology' is the study of
                            our planetary 'house'. So both economics and ecology are about balance within
                            finite systems.

                            But what we think of as economics only emerged in the 18th century with people
                            like Adam Smith and 'The Wealth of Nations' and the tradition of neo-classical
                            and neo-liberal economics that grew out of it. This tradition has effectively
                            staged a coup of university economics teaching which is now dominated by fancy
                            mathematics masking vested interests and is really what Hazel Henderson called
                            'politics in disguise'.

                            It is why the economics students of Paris staged a mini-revolution in the world
                            of academic economics in the year 2000 to start the Post Autistic Economics
                            movement and argue for an economics in touch with the real world of planetary
                            limits and human communities. In other words, paying attention to the true
                            effects of externalities and asking what we are going to do about them to bring
                            about resilience, survival and sustainability. Economics Professors like Edward
                            Fullbrook and his Toxic Textbooks movement are playing a part in this
                            revolution.

                            The other essential point that Hazel Henderson, Marilyn Waring and Edgar Cahn
                            have made is the importance of what we measure. For instance, if we only measure
                            things as wealth, growth and progress that have dollar signs against them, then
                            we are doomed to damage all the things that make us truly happy such as a
                            healthy physical, emotional and intellectual environment. It is truly absurd
                            that locking people up in prisons or old peoples' homes registers as 'growth'
                            because it creates jobs and building contracts when what it actually reflects is
                            the sickness of societies that cannot create healthy environments.

                            Check out:
                            Hazel Henderson's Quality of Life indicators:
                            http://www.ethicalmarkets.com/about/calvert-henderson-quality-of-life-indicators/

                            Marilyn Waring's work: http://marilynwaring.com/index.html

                            Edgar Cahn on co-production and time banking: http://www.timebanks.org/
                            Watch the 15 minute video of him on the home page talking about the Core
                            Economy.

                            John Rogers

                            ________________________________
                            From: Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@...>
                            To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com; livingbytruth@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Fri, 12 November, 2010 17:01:41
                            Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: Rethinking economics

                            Meredith, Ralf, Thank you! I share your letters and links.

                            Meredith, http://www.gapminder.org is truly impressive.

                            I saw a nice chart of life expectancy vs. wealth for all the nations
                            which you could then view over 200 years as a video.

                            Then I saw that there are 438 different statistics. There's a few for
                            "Economy"=>"Economic Situation" such as Tax revenues as percentage of GDP.

                            What's great is that you can compare any two statistics and make a
                            chart. For example, you can study alcohol consumption or murder rates etc.

                            It's also possible to compare US states, EU countries, China's provinces
                            and India's states with countries of the world:
                            http://www.gapminder.org/labs/

                            What this makes clear to me for my book is that I should really focus on
                            the ideas in math, for example, how to use such a resource, rather than
                            trying to take its place.

                            Still, I'm wondering if there's a resource that illustrates the global
                            or national macroeconomy, the forms of wealth and how they flow from one
                            to another. I found this site:
                            http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/macroeconomics.html
                            Here's an example applet:
                            http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/tutor/circularflow_applet.html

                            Thank you!

                            Andrius Kulikauskas, Minciu Sodas, http://www.helproom.org, (773) 306-3807

                            On 11/12/2010 05:16 AM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
                            > Andrius,
                            >
                            > Check out http://www.gapminder.org/ and Hans Rosling's amazing TED talk
                            > about it,
                            >http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html.
                            >.
                            > It's a tool for tracking statistical and economic data over time. Much of
                            > the data they have (http://www.gapminder.org/data/) has to do with health
                            > and wellness, but you'll also find things like the consumer price index,
                            > energy usage per person, external debt per person, GDP per capita, working
                            > hours per week and so on.
                            >
                            > Cheers,
                            > --mlp

                            On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 01:28:06AM -0600, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
                            > > This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                            > > system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                            > > useful information?
                            You might want to directly look at the reports from the International
                            Monetary Fund for things like global Gross Domestic Product (GDP) data
                            (also for different countries) although we all know here that GDP isn't
                            really a very good indicator.
                            http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/weodata/index.aspx

                            Or for other economic data (like derivatives) you might want to look at
                            the reports from the Bank for International Settlements
                            http://www.bis.org, they produce quarterly reports in PDF format where
                            you get a lot of interesting numbers. You should get the "Statistical
                            annex" to the "BIS Quarterly Review"
                            http://www.bis.org/publ/quarterly.htm

                            Some time ago I used these sources to plot GDP vs money held in
                            derivatives (graphics attached). This clearly shows how fragile the
                            whole interest system has become... the text in the graphics is in
                            german, "Milliarden" = "Billion", "Derivate" = "Derivatives",
                            "Weltsozialprodukt" = "World Gross Domestic Product", and yes: the
                            highest point in the red curve is really almost 700000 Billion = 700
                            Trillion US$...

                            Ralf
                            -- Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck Tel: +43/2243/26465-16 Open Source Consulting
                            www: http://www.runtux.com Reichergasse 131 email: office@...
                            A-3411 Weidling osAlliance member email: rsc@...

                            > On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >> John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,
                            >>
                            >> Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also share
                            >> at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
                            >> look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.
                            >>
                            >> Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester. Perry
                            >> gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking. I learned that
                            >> there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers. Here
                            >> are some of the books:
                            >> * "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
                            >> * "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
                            >> Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
                            >> * "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
                            >> by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
                            >> * "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
                            >> with others.
                            >> And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and postmodern
                            >> age.
                            >>
                            >> Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me? It's
                            >> great! Thank you.
                            >>
                            >> I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
                            >> http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
                            >> I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
                            >> such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
                            >> Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
                            >> * Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
                            >> * Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
                            >> * Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
                            >> * Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
                            >> * World bond market: 82 trillion USD
                            >> Per Year:
                            >> * Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
                            >> * Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
                            >> * US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
                            >> * Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
                            >> * Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
                            >> * World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)
                            >>
                            >> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                            >> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                            >> useful information?
                            >>
                            >> Andrius
                            >>
                            >> Andrius Kulikauskas
                            >> Minciu Sodas
                            >> http://www.helproom.org
                            >> (773) 306-3807
                            >>

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]










                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Andrius Kulikauskas
                            John, thank you for the links. Nevertheless, it would be useful for me to understand and communicate the current theory of macroeconomics and the existing
                            Message 13 of 17 , Dec 1, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              John, thank you for the links.

                              Nevertheless, it would be useful for me to understand and communicate
                              the current theory of macroeconomics and the existing models for the
                              flow of wealth. Then I would be in a position to show with great care
                              where the theory breaks down. Math, I suppose, is a care for the
                              absolute details, where and why they hold and where and why they break
                              down. A friend asked me to watch the Zeitgeist movie and I was
                              disappointed to see in that movie a real lack of care for the truth,
                              denouncing myths with even greater myths.

                              My feeling is that a lot of "alternate economy" thinking is
                              reintroducing the current economic paradigms. I look forward to better
                              appreciating the strengths and weaknesses of the current economy and
                              practically pursuing my own goals for a different way of making a living.

                              Andrius

                              Andrius Kulikauskas
                              Gospel Math
                              http://www.gospelmath.com
                              (773) 306-3807


                              On 11/13/2010 06:20 AM, John Rogers wrote:
                              > Andrius, Meredith, Ralf, John
                              >
                              > Great to see some activity in this group again after so long silence!
                              >
                              > If we want to rethink economics then we need to go back to basics.
                              >
                              > The first thing that strikes me about Andrius's list of global economic figures
                              > - the 'world's wealth' - is that the planet itself and all its 'free'
                              > 'eco-system services' is missing.
                              >
                              >
                              > I prefer to listen to the voices of Native peoples to get some insights here:
                              >
                              > "Only when the last tree has died, the last river has been poisoned and the
                              > last fish has been caught will we realize that we cannot eat money." Cree
                              > Indian Proverb
                              >
                              > Or more enlightened Western thinkers such as Herman Daly, founder of ecological
                              > economics:
                              > "The economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment, not the reverse."
                              >
                              > The word 'economy' is ancient Greek meaning 'rules of the household' ie
                              > balancing what comes in with what goes out. The word 'ecology' is the study of
                              > our planetary 'house'. So both economics and ecology are about balance within
                              > finite systems.
                              >
                              > But what we think of as economics only emerged in the 18th century with people
                              > like Adam Smith and 'The Wealth of Nations' and the tradition of neo-classical
                              > and neo-liberal economics that grew out of it. This tradition has effectively
                              > staged a coup of university economics teaching which is now dominated by fancy
                              > mathematics masking vested interests and is really what Hazel Henderson called
                              > 'politics in disguise'.
                              >
                              >
                              > It is why the economics students of Paris staged a mini-revolution in the world
                              > of academic economics in the year 2000 to start the Post Autistic Economics
                              > movement and argue for an economics in touch with the real world of planetary
                              > limits and human communities. In other words, paying attention to the true
                              > effects of externalities and asking what we are going to do about them to bring
                              > about resilience, survival and sustainability. Economics Professors like Edward
                              > Fullbrook and his Toxic Textbooks movement are playing a part in this
                              > revolution.
                              >
                              > The other essential point that Hazel Henderson, Marilyn Waring and Edgar Cahn
                              > have made is the importance of what we measure. For instance, if we only measure
                              > things as wealth, growth and progress that have dollar signs against them, then
                              > we are doomed to damage all the things that make us truly happy such as a
                              > healthy physical, emotional and intellectual environment. It is truly absurd
                              > that locking people up in prisons or old peoples' homes registers as 'growth'
                              > because it creates jobs and building contracts when what it actually reflects is
                              > the sickness of societies that cannot create healthy environments.
                              >
                              > Check out:
                              > Hazel Henderson's Quality of Life indicators:
                              > http://www.ethicalmarkets.com/about/calvert-henderson-quality-of-life-indicators/
                              >
                              >
                              > Marilyn Waring's work: http://marilynwaring.com/index.html
                              >
                              > Edgar Cahn on co-production and time banking: http://www.timebanks.org/
                              > Watch the 15 minute video of him on the home page talking about the Core
                              > Economy.
                              >
                              >
                              > John Rogers
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > From: Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@...>
                              > To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com; livingbytruth@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Fri, 12 November, 2010 17:01:41
                              > Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: Rethinking economics
                              >
                              >
                              > Meredith, Ralf, Thank you! I share your letters and links.
                              >
                              > Meredith, http://www.gapminder.org is truly impressive.
                              >
                              > I saw a nice chart of life expectancy vs. wealth for all the nations
                              > which you could then view over 200 years as a video.
                              >
                              > Then I saw that there are 438 different statistics. There's a few for
                              > "Economy"=>"Economic Situation" such as Tax revenues as percentage of GDP.
                              >
                              > What's great is that you can compare any two statistics and make a
                              > chart. For example, you can study alcohol consumption or murder rates etc.
                              >
                              > It's also possible to compare US states, EU countries, China's provinces
                              > and India's states with countries of the world:
                              > http://www.gapminder.org/labs/
                              >
                              > What this makes clear to me for my book is that I should really focus on
                              > the ideas in math, for example, how to use such a resource, rather than
                              > trying to take its place.
                              >
                              > Still, I'm wondering if there's a resource that illustrates the global
                              > or national macroeconomy, the forms of wealth and how they flow from one
                              > to another. I found this site:
                              > http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/macroeconomics.html
                              > Here's an example applet:
                              > http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/tutor/circularflow_applet.html
                              >
                              > Thank you!
                              >
                              > Andrius Kulikauskas, Minciu Sodas, http://www.helproom.org, (773) 306-3807
                              >
                              > On 11/12/2010 05:16 AM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
                              >> Andrius,
                              >>
                              >> Check out http://www.gapminder.org/ and Hans Rosling's amazing TED talk
                              >> about it,
                              >> http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html.
                              >> .
                              >> It's a tool for tracking statistical and economic data over time. Much of
                              >> the data they have (http://www.gapminder.org/data/) has to do with health
                              >> and wellness, but you'll also find things like the consumer price index,
                              >> energy usage per person, external debt per person, GDP per capita, working
                              >> hours per week and so on.
                              >>
                              >> Cheers,
                              >> --mlp
                              > On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 01:28:06AM -0600, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
                              >>> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                              >>> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                              >>> useful information?
                              > You might want to directly look at the reports from the International
                              > Monetary Fund for things like global Gross Domestic Product (GDP) data
                              > (also for different countries) although we all know here that GDP isn't
                              > really a very good indicator.
                              > http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/weodata/index.aspx
                              >
                              > Or for other economic data (like derivatives) you might want to look at
                              > the reports from the Bank for International Settlements
                              > http://www.bis.org, they produce quarterly reports in PDF format where
                              > you get a lot of interesting numbers. You should get the "Statistical
                              > annex" to the "BIS Quarterly Review"
                              > http://www.bis.org/publ/quarterly.htm
                              >
                              > Some time ago I used these sources to plot GDP vs money held in
                              > derivatives (graphics attached). This clearly shows how fragile the
                              > whole interest system has become... the text in the graphics is in
                              > german, "Milliarden" = "Billion", "Derivate" = "Derivatives",
                              > "Weltsozialprodukt" = "World Gross Domestic Product", and yes: the
                              > highest point in the red curve is really almost 700000 Billion = 700
                              > Trillion US$...
                              >
                              > Ralf
                              > -- Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck Tel: +43/2243/26465-16 Open Source Consulting
                              > www: http://www.runtux.com Reichergasse 131 email: office@...
                              > A-3411 Weidling osAlliance member email: rsc@...
                              >
                              >> On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@...> wrote:
                              >>
                              >>> John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,
                              >>>
                              >>> Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also share
                              >>> at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
                              >>> look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.
                              >>>
                              >>> Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester. Perry
                              >>> gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking. I learned that
                              >>> there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers. Here
                              >>> are some of the books:
                              >>> * "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
                              >>> * "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
                              >>> Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
                              >>> * "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
                              >>> by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
                              >>> * "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
                              >>> with others.
                              >>> And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and postmodern
                              >>> age.
                              >>>
                              >>> Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me? It's
                              >>> great! Thank you.
                              >>>
                              >>> I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
                              >>> http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
                              >>> I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
                              >>> such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
                              >>> Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
                              >>> * Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
                              >>> * Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
                              >>> * Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
                              >>> * Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
                              >>> * World bond market: 82 trillion USD
                              >>> Per Year:
                              >>> * Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
                              >>> * Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
                              >>> * US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
                              >>> * Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
                              >>> * Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
                              >>> * World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)
                              >>>
                              >>> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                              >>> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                              >>> useful information?
                              >>>
                              >>> Andrius
                              >>>
                              >>> Andrius Kulikauskas
                              >>> Minciu Sodas
                              >>> http://www.helproom.org
                              >>> (773) 306-3807
                              >>>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Each letter sent to cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                              > enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN whenever it does not state otherwise. http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org
                              > Please be kind to our authors!
                              >
                              > Have a look at our wiki where we are creating an online learning environment for community currency: http://www.findbetterways.info/wiki.cgi?FindBetterWays/CommunityCurrency
                              >
                              >
                              > To Post a message, send it to: cyfranogi@...
                              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: cyfranogi-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
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                            • jw
                              Andrius: Just for some background, you might look at this discussion (link below) so you know what you are stepping into. This goes on forever. I can only
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jan 18, 2011
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                                Andrius:

                                Just for some background, you might look at this discussion (link below)
                                so you know what you are stepping into. This goes on forever. I can
                                only note that all of the discussions about money systems and power
                                center around the thesis that there is a way to organize large groups of
                                people, even world wide. I suspect that assumption needs a hard look.

                                JW

                                http://www.thedailybell.com/1684/Anthony-Wile-with-Ellen-Brown-on-the-Efficiencies-of-the-State-and-the-Progress-of-Her-Public-Banking-Vision---.html

                                On 12/1/2010 10:53 PM, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
                                >
                                > John, thank you for the links.
                                >
                                > Nevertheless, it would be useful for me to understand and communicate
                                > the current theory of macroeconomics and the existing models for the
                                > flow of wealth. Then I would be in a position to show with great care
                                > where the theory breaks down. Math, I suppose, is a care for the
                                > absolute details, where and why they hold and where and why they break
                                > down. A friend asked me to watch the Zeitgeist movie and I was
                                > disappointed to see in that movie a real lack of care for the truth,
                                > denouncing myths with even greater myths.
                                >
                                > My feeling is that a lot of "alternate economy" thinking is
                                > reintroducing the current economic paradigms. I look forward to better
                                > appreciating the strengths and weaknesses of the current economy and
                                > practically pursuing my own goals for a different way of making a living.
                                >
                                > Andrius
                                >
                                > Andrius Kulikauskas
                                > Gospel Math
                                > http://www.gospelmath.com
                                > (773) 306-3807
                                >
                                > On 11/13/2010 06:20 AM, John Rogers wrote:
                                > > Andrius, Meredith, Ralf, John
                                > >
                                > > Great to see some activity in this group again after so long silence!
                                > >
                                > > If we want to rethink economics then we need to go back to basics.
                                > >
                                > > The first thing that strikes me about Andrius's list of global
                                > economic figures
                                > > - the 'world's wealth' - is that the planet itself and all its 'free'
                                > > 'eco-system services' is missing.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > I prefer to listen to the voices of Native peoples to get some
                                > insights here:
                                > >
                                > > "Only when the last tree has died, the last river has been poisoned
                                > and the
                                > > last fish has been caught will we realize that we cannot eat money."
                                > Cree
                                > > Indian Proverb
                                > >
                                > > Or more enlightened Western thinkers such as Herman Daly, founder of
                                > ecological
                                > > economics:
                                > > "The economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment, not
                                > the reverse."
                                > >
                                > > The word 'economy' is ancient Greek meaning 'rules of the household' ie
                                > > balancing what comes in with what goes out. The word 'ecology' is
                                > the study of
                                > > our planetary 'house'. So both economics and ecology are about
                                > balance within
                                > > finite systems.
                                > >
                                > > But what we think of as economics only emerged in the 18th century
                                > with people
                                > > like Adam Smith and 'The Wealth of Nations' and the tradition of
                                > neo-classical
                                > > and neo-liberal economics that grew out of it. This tradition has
                                > effectively
                                > > staged a coup of university economics teaching which is now
                                > dominated by fancy
                                > > mathematics masking vested interests and is really what Hazel
                                > Henderson called
                                > > 'politics in disguise'.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > It is why the economics students of Paris staged a mini-revolution
                                > in the world
                                > > of academic economics in the year 2000 to start the Post Autistic
                                > Economics
                                > > movement and argue for an economics in touch with the real world of
                                > planetary
                                > > limits and human communities. In other words, paying attention to
                                > the true
                                > > effects of externalities and asking what we are going to do about
                                > them to bring
                                > > about resilience, survival and sustainability. Economics Professors
                                > like Edward
                                > > Fullbrook and his Toxic Textbooks movement are playing a part in this
                                > > revolution.
                                > >
                                > > The other essential point that Hazel Henderson, Marilyn Waring and
                                > Edgar Cahn
                                > > have made is the importance of what we measure. For instance, if we
                                > only measure
                                > > things as wealth, growth and progress that have dollar signs against
                                > them, then
                                > > we are doomed to damage all the things that make us truly happy such
                                > as a
                                > > healthy physical, emotional and intellectual environment. It is
                                > truly absurd
                                > > that locking people up in prisons or old peoples' homes registers as
                                > 'growth'
                                > > because it creates jobs and building contracts when what it actually
                                > reflects is
                                > > the sickness of societies that cannot create healthy environments.
                                > >
                                > > Check out:
                                > > Hazel Henderson's Quality of Life indicators:
                                > >
                                > http://www.ethicalmarkets.com/about/calvert-henderson-quality-of-life-indicators/
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Marilyn Waring's work: http://marilynwaring.com/index.html
                                > >
                                > > Edgar Cahn on co-production and time banking: http://www.timebanks.org/
                                > > Watch the 15 minute video of him on the home page talking about the Core
                                > > Economy.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > John Rogers
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ________________________________
                                > > From: Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@... <mailto:ms%40ms.lt>>
                                > > To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com>;
                                > livingbytruth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:livingbytruth%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > Sent: Fri, 12 November, 2010 17:01:41
                                > > Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: Rethinking economics
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Meredith, Ralf, Thank you! I share your letters and links.
                                > >
                                > > Meredith, http://www.gapminder.org is truly impressive.
                                > >
                                > > I saw a nice chart of life expectancy vs. wealth for all the nations
                                > > which you could then view over 200 years as a video.
                                > >
                                > > Then I saw that there are 438 different statistics. There's a few for
                                > > "Economy"=>"Economic Situation" such as Tax revenues as percentage
                                > of GDP.
                                > >
                                > > What's great is that you can compare any two statistics and make a
                                > > chart. For example, you can study alcohol consumption or murder
                                > rates etc.
                                > >
                                > > It's also possible to compare US states, EU countries, China's provinces
                                > > and India's states with countries of the world:
                                > > http://www.gapminder.org/labs/
                                > >
                                > > What this makes clear to me for my book is that I should really focus on
                                > > the ideas in math, for example, how to use such a resource, rather than
                                > > trying to take its place.
                                > >
                                > > Still, I'm wondering if there's a resource that illustrates the global
                                > > or national macroeconomy, the forms of wealth and how they flow from one
                                > > to another. I found this site:
                                > > http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/macroeconomics.html
                                > > Here's an example applet:
                                > > http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/tutor/circularflow_applet.html
                                > >
                                > > Thank you!
                                > >
                                > > Andrius Kulikauskas, Minciu Sodas, http://www.helproom.org, (773)
                                > 306-3807
                                > >
                                > > On 11/12/2010 05:16 AM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
                                > >> Andrius,
                                > >>
                                > >> Check out http://www.gapminder.org/ and Hans Rosling's amazing TED talk
                                > >> about it,
                                > >>
                                > http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html.
                                > >> .
                                > >> It's a tool for tracking statistical and economic data over time.
                                > Much of
                                > >> the data they have (http://www.gapminder.org/data/) has to do with
                                > health
                                > >> and wellness, but you'll also find things like the consumer price
                                > index,
                                > >> energy usage per person, external debt per person, GDP per capita,
                                > working
                                > >> hours per week and so on.
                                > >>
                                > >> Cheers,
                                > >> --mlp
                                > > On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 01:28:06AM -0600, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
                                > >>> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                                > >>> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                                > >>> useful information?
                                > > You might want to directly look at the reports from the International
                                > > Monetary Fund for things like global Gross Domestic Product (GDP) data
                                > > (also for different countries) although we all know here that GDP isn't
                                > > really a very good indicator.
                                > > http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/weodata/index.aspx
                                > >
                                > > Or for other economic data (like derivatives) you might want to look at
                                > > the reports from the Bank for International Settlements
                                > > http://www.bis.org, they produce quarterly reports in PDF format where
                                > > you get a lot of interesting numbers. You should get the "Statistical
                                > > annex" to the "BIS Quarterly Review"
                                > > http://www.bis.org/publ/quarterly.htm
                                > >
                                > > Some time ago I used these sources to plot GDP vs money held in
                                > > derivatives (graphics attached). This clearly shows how fragile the
                                > > whole interest system has become... the text in the graphics is in
                                > > german, "Milliarden" = "Billion", "Derivate" = "Derivatives",
                                > > "Weltsozialprodukt" = "World Gross Domestic Product", and yes: the
                                > > highest point in the red curve is really almost 700000 Billion = 700
                                > > Trillion US$...
                                > >
                                > > Ralf
                                > > -- Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck Tel: +43/2243/26465-16 Open Source Consulting
                                > > www: http://www.runtux.com Reichergasse 131 email: office@...
                                > <mailto:office%40runtux.com>
                                > > A-3411 Weidling osAlliance member email: rsc@...
                                > <mailto:rsc%40osalliance.com>
                                > >
                                > >> On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@...
                                > <mailto:ms%40ms.lt>> wrote:
                                > >>
                                > >>> John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,
                                > >>>
                                > >>> Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also
                                > share
                                > >>> at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
                                > >>> look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.
                                > >>>
                                > >>> Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester. Perry
                                > >>> gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking. I learned
                                > that
                                > >>> there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers.
                                > Here
                                > >>> are some of the books:
                                > >>> * "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
                                > >>> * "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
                                > >>> Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
                                > >>> * "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
                                > >>> by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
                                > >>> * "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
                                > >>> with others.
                                > >>> And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and
                                > postmodern
                                > >>> age.
                                > >>>
                                > >>> Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me? It's
                                > >>> great! Thank you.
                                > >>>
                                > >>> I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
                                > >>> http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
                                > >>> I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
                                > >>> such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
                                > >>> Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
                                > >>> * Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
                                > >>> * Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
                                > >>> * Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
                                > >>> * Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
                                > >>> * World bond market: 82 trillion USD
                                > >>> Per Year:
                                > >>> * Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
                                > >>> * Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
                                > >>> * US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
                                > >>> * Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
                                > >>> * Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
                                > >>> * World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)
                                > >>>
                                > >>> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                                > >>> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                                > >>> useful information?
                                > >>>
                                > >>> Andrius
                                > >>>
                                > >>> Andrius Kulikauskas
                                > >>> Minciu Sodas
                                > >>> http://www.helproom.org
                                > >>> (773) 306-3807
                                > >>>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ------------------------------------
                                > >
                                > > Each letter sent to cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                                > <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN whenever it does not state otherwise.
                                > http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org
                                > > Please be kind to our authors!
                                > >
                                > > Have a look at our wiki where we are creating an online learning
                                > environment for community currency:
                                > http://www.findbetterways.info/wiki.cgi?FindBetterWays/CommunityCurrency
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > To Post a message, send it to: cyfranogi@...
                                > <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahooGroups.com>
                                > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                > cyfranogi-unsubscribe@...
                                > <mailto:cyfranogi-unsubscribe%40yahooGroups.comYahoo>! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Tom Wayburn
                                JW, Are you implying that the people of the US - or any other nation state not undergoing active rebellion - are not organized around the current monetary
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jan 19, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  JW,



                                  Are you implying that the people of the US - or any other nation state not
                                  undergoing active rebellion - are not organized around the current monetary
                                  (economic) system? I would wish for no more organized group of people than
                                  these except that they should be organized around a different system.



                                  Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas





                                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cyfranogi/message/2771;_ylc=X3oDMTJxazgwbzd1B
                                  F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE2NjUzMTUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MzI5NzM0BG1zZ0lkAzI3NzEEc
                                  2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTI5NTQ0OTc1Ng--> Re: Rethinking economics


                                  Posted by: "jw"
                                  <mailto:jdwasse@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Rethinking%20economics>
                                  jdwasse@...


                                  Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:46 am (PST)




                                  Andrius:

                                  Just for some background, you might look at this discussion (link below)
                                  so you know what you are stepping into. This goes on forever. I can
                                  only note that all of the discussions about money systems and power
                                  center around the thesis that there is a way to organize large groups of
                                  people, even world wide. I suspect that assumption needs a hard look.

                                  JW


                                  <http://www.thedailybell.com/1684/Anthony-Wile-with-Ellen-Brown-on-the-Effic
                                  iencies-of-the-State-and-the-Progress-of-Her-Public-Banking-Vision---.html>
                                  http://www.thedailybell.com/1684/Anthony-Wile-with-Ellen-Brown-on-the-Effici
                                  encies-of-the-State-and-the-Progress-of-Her-Public-Banking-Vision---.html





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • jw
                                  I suspect that ethical money systems require fairly similar people, the kind of problem the European Common Market is struggling with right now. The US, for
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jan 19, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I suspect that ethical money systems require fairly similar people, the
                                    kind of problem the European Common Market is struggling with
                                    right now. The US, for example, may have too much diversity wrt
                                    economic development to be under a single currency. There may be
                                    gains for small groups to have their own currency, if the legal system
                                    will permit.

                                    JW

                                    On 1/19/2011 11:55 AM, Tom Wayburn wrote:
                                    >
                                    > JW,
                                    >
                                    > Are you implying that the people of the US - or any other nation state not
                                    > undergoing active rebellion - are not organized around the current
                                    > monetary
                                    > (economic) system? I would wish for no more organized group of people than
                                    > these except that they should be organized around a different system.
                                    >
                                    > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                    >
                                    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cyfranogi/message/2771;_ylc=X3oDMTJxazgwbzd1B
                                    > F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE2NjUzMTUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MzI5NzM0BG1zZ0lkAzI3NzEEc
                                    > 2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTI5NTQ0OTc1Ng--> Re: Rethinking economics
                                    >
                                    > Posted by: "jw"
                                    > <mailto:jdwasse@...
                                    > <mailto:jdwasse%40ripco.com>?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Rethinking%20economics>
                                    > jdwasse@... <mailto:jdwasse%40ripco.com>
                                    >
                                    > Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:46 am (PST)
                                    >
                                    > Andrius:
                                    >
                                    > Just for some background, you might look at this discussion (link below)
                                    > so you know what you are stepping into. This goes on forever. I can
                                    > only note that all of the discussions about money systems and power
                                    > center around the thesis that there is a way to organize large groups of
                                    > people, even world wide. I suspect that assumption needs a hard look.
                                    >
                                    > JW
                                    >
                                    > <http://www.thedailybell.com/1684/Anthony-Wile-with-Ellen-Brown-on-the-Effic
                                    > iencies-of-the-State-and-the-Progress-of-Her-Public-Banking-Vision---.html>
                                    > http://www.thedailybell.com/1684/Anthony-Wile-with-Ellen-Brown-on-the-Effici
                                    > encies-of-the-State-and-the-Progress-of-Her-Public-Banking-Vision---.html
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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