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On The Money Local Currency Design Workshop at Findhorn Ecovillage

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  • John Rogers
    Dear community currency supporter We think you may be interested in a very special event this summer. Findhorn Ecovillage in Scotland is hosting On The Money
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 22, 2010
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      Dear
      community currency supporter


      We think you may be interested in a very special event this
      summer.
      Findhorn
      Ecovillage in Scotland is hosting 'On The Money - a
      Vision Quest to the
      Heart of Local Money', a five day workshop
      for local currency designers from
      August 14-18, 2010.

      Why
      now?
      Local
      money will play a critical role in the transition to the resilient
      communities of the future.
      A few community
      currencies have succeeded and lasted decades. Many have
      not sustained themselves.
      After
      thousands of experiments around the world it is
      time to apply the lessons learned to create a new generation of
      sustainable systems.

      What does the workshop cover?

      * Why, What,
      How, Who, Where and When of community currencies.
      * How to get
      past
      the initial enthusiasm and idealism to create a system that lasts.
      * How to
      choose
      the best design features.
      * How to involve
      your community in the development process.
      * The
      workshop will be high on methodology,
      low in ideology, as we critically engage with existing models and
      systems to identify what works best for your own situation.

      Who
      is leading it?
      John Rogers and Jonathan Dawson, both experienced
      community currency acitivists and teachers.
      With guest contributions from Richard Douthwaite, Margrit Kennedy
      and Bernard Lietaer and other community currency practitioners.

      We
      will
      learn together how to channel the idealism and enthusiasm driving
      community
      currrencies into using the right tools to do the job of design properly and create
      a quantum
      shift in practice.
      Please check out the short video about the
      workshop here: http://www.valueforpeople.co.uk/findhornworkshop

      Full
      workshop details here: http://www.findhorncollege.com/proftraining/moneysoul.php

      We
      hope you can join us!

      Best
      wishes

      John
      Rogers, Value for People
      Jonathan Dawson, Findhorn Ecovillage
    • jw
      Hi. I am John Wassenaar. I did some writing on this list a while ago, but have been silent for a while. I am interested in the local currencies issue,
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 2, 2010
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        Hi. I am John Wassenaar. I did some writing on this list a while ago,
        but have been silent for a while. I am
        interested in the local currencies issue, wonder if anyone knows of
        groups or individuals working in this area in
        the midwestern US, preferably Chicago. I have done some reading, am an
        economist by training, so also know
        where the pot holes are. Any help appreciated.

        JW

        On 6/22/2010 4:52 PM, John Rogers wrote:
        >
        > Dear
        > community currency supporter
        >
        > We think you may be interested in a very special event this
        > summer.
        > Findhorn
        > Ecovillage in Scotland is hosting 'On The Money - a
        > Vision Quest to the
        > Heart of Local Money', a five day workshop
        > for local currency designers from
        > August 14-18, 2010.
        >
        > Why
        > now?
        > Local
        > money will play a critical role in the transition to the resilient
        > communities of the future.
        > A few community
        > currencies have succeeded and lasted decades. Many have
        > not sustained themselves.
        > After
        > thousands of experiments around the world it is
        > time to apply the lessons learned to create a new generation of
        > sustainable systems.
        >
        > What does the workshop cover?
        >
        > * Why, What,
        > How, Who, Where and When of community currencies.
        > * How to get
        > past
        > the initial enthusiasm and idealism to create a system that lasts.
        > * How to
        > choose
        > the best design features.
        > * How to involve
        > your community in the development process.
        > * The
        > workshop will be high on methodology,
        > low in ideology, as we critically engage with existing models and
        > systems to identify what works best for your own situation.
        >
        > Who
        > is leading it?
        > John Rogers and Jonathan Dawson, both experienced
        > community currency acitivists and teachers.
        > With guest contributions from Richard Douthwaite, Margrit Kennedy
        > and Bernard Lietaer and other community currency practitioners.
        >
        > We
        > will
        > learn together how to channel the idealism and enthusiasm driving
        > community
        > currrencies into using the right tools to do the job of design
        > properly and create
        > a quantum
        > shift in practice.
        > Please check out the short video about the
        > workshop here: http://www.valueforpeople.co.uk/findhornworkshop
        >
        > Full
        > workshop details here:
        > http://www.findhorncollege.com/proftraining/moneysoul.php
        >
        > We
        > hope you can join us!
        >
        > Best
        > wishes
        >
        > John
        > Rogers, Value for People
        > Jonathan Dawson, Findhorn Ecovillage
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • John Rogers
        Hi John The best place to make this kind of request is on the CC Open Collective ongoing Skype conference. This is a gathering of CC activists who regularly
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 3, 2010
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          Hi John

          The best place to make this kind of request is on the CC Open Collective ongoing
          Skype conference. This is a gathering of CC activists who regularly post
          requests, observations and links.

          The CC Open Collective is an online forum (skype chat) for complementary
          currency practitioners, researchers and advocates. It is about 6 years old,
          and currently includes 120 people from around the world. Members share their
          knowledge, experiments and inquiries about complementary currencies, and draw
          one another’s attention to new developments in the field. As of August 2010,
          the chat generated about 700 pages of Microsoft Word notes, questions, and
          links. This learning community is open to anyone who can contribute to the
          development of the field of complementary currencies.
          The forum is moderated. If you would like to join, please contact Les Squires
          (skype name: LSquiresSkype) and briefly explain why you would like to
          participate. You will be invited into the chat and asked to introduce
          yourself. Newcomers will be coached as to the appropriateness of their
          interactions. Chatty talk is best communicated outside the group. The group
          has recently spun off a chat for programmers, and will consider additional
          discussions for other highly specialized topics.

          Best wishes

          John Rogers




          ________________________________
          From: jw <jdwasse@...>
          To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tue, 2 November, 2010 23:45:01
          Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] On The Money Local Currency- Chicago


          Hi. I am John Wassenaar. I did some writing on this list a while ago,
          but have been silent for a while. I am
          interested in the local currencies issue, wonder if anyone knows of
          groups or individuals working in this area in
          the midwestern US, preferably Chicago. I have done some reading, am an
          economist by training, so also know
          where the pot holes are. Any help appreciated.

          JW

          On 6/22/2010 4:52 PM, John Rogers wrote:
          >
          > Dear
          > community currency supporter
          >
          > We think you may be interested in a very special event this
          > summer.
          > Findhorn
          > Ecovillage in Scotland is hosting 'On The Money - a
          > Vision Quest to the
          > Heart of Local Money', a five day workshop
          > for local currency designers from
          > August 14-18, 2010.
          >
          > Why
          > now?
          > Local
          > money will play a critical role in the transition to the resilient
          > communities of the future.
          > A few community
          > currencies have succeeded and lasted decades. Many have
          > not sustained themselves.
          > After
          > thousands of experiments around the world it is
          > time to apply the lessons learned to create a new generation of
          > sustainable systems.
          >
          > What does the workshop cover?
          >
          > * Why, What,
          > How, Who, Where and When of community currencies.
          > * How to get
          > past
          > the initial enthusiasm and idealism to create a system that lasts.
          > * How to
          > choose
          > the best design features.
          > * How to involve
          > your community in the development process.
          > * The
          > workshop will be high on methodology,
          > low in ideology, as we critically engage with existing models and
          > systems to identify what works best for your own situation.
          >
          > Who
          > is leading it?
          > John Rogers and Jonathan Dawson, both experienced
          > community currency acitivists and teachers.
          > With guest contributions from Richard Douthwaite, Margrit Kennedy
          > and Bernard Lietaer and other community currency practitioners.
          >
          > We
          > will
          > learn together how to channel the idealism and enthusiasm driving
          > community
          > currrencies into using the right tools to do the job of design
          > properly and create
          > a quantum
          > shift in practice.
          > Please check out the short video about the
          > workshop here: http://www.valueforpeople.co.uk/findhornworkshop
          >
          > Full
          > workshop details here:
          > http://www.findhorncollege.com/proftraining/moneysoul.php
          >
          > We
          > hope you can join us!
          >
          > Best
          > wishes
          >
          > John
          > Rogers, Value for People
          > Jonathan Dawson, Findhorn Ecovillage
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Andrius Kulikauskas
          Hi John, I m currently in Chicago, living in Grand Crossing and working as a tutor in South Shore. In my free time, I m thinking about the ways I have figured
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 10, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi John,

            I'm currently in Chicago, living in Grand Crossing and working as a
            tutor in South Shore.

            In my free time, I'm thinking about the ways I have figured things out,
            about 200 so far. I'm hoping they might be the basis for a culture of
            independent thinkers, or in other words, Jesus's vision of the kingdom
            of heaven.

            Related to that, I'm writing a book "Math for Thinkers" for adult
            self-learners. Here are my notes:
            http://www.helproom.org/Value/DeepIdeas
            http://www.helproom.org/Value/MathForThinkers
            I'd like to include many examples of mathematical thinking that arise in
            analyzing our economic system.

            Last week I met with Michael Lucci, a recent graduate who is very
            interested in rethinking economics. He is studying the Austrian
            economists Friedrich Hayek and Ludwig von Mises. So we'll be writing
            and thinking about the principles of economics. Here are some notes
            from our meeting:
            http://www.helproom.org/Value/Economics

            In particular, I'd like to draw a conceptual map of the macro economy,
            researching the total amounts of money and wealth in various forms
            (stocks, bonds, loans, property, wages, taxes, etc.) and how they flow
            in the economy.

            I note that there is a "Toxic Textbooks" movement
            http://www.toxictextbooks.com to write post-crisis economics textbooks.

            Here's one helpful tool, the Wolfram Alpha answer engine, and an example
            that Michael is interested in, the relationship between the prices of
            gold and oil: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=gold+vs+oil

            I also alert Michael to Bernard Lietaer's book "The Future of Money"
            http://www.lietaer.com
            http://www.lietaer.com/writings/books/the-future-of-money/

            I want my book and related learning materials to be in the Public
            Domain, copyright-free.
            http://www.helproom.org/Value/Open
            I also want to make a living from this or related work. I think that
            should be possible, but will require great creativity and flexibility.
            I appreciate ideas. Here are some directions I'm working on:
            http://www.helproom.org/Value/BusinessIdeas

            John, I'm curious to learn more about your interests.

            Andrius

            Andrius Kulikauskas
            Minciu Sodas
            ms@...
            (773) 306-3807


            On 11/02/2010 05:45 PM, jw wrote:
            > Hi. I am John Wassenaar. I did some writing on this list a while ago,
            > but have been silent for a while. I am
            > interested in the local currencies issue, wonder if anyone knows of
            > groups or individuals working in this area in
            > the midwestern US, preferably Chicago. I have done some reading, am an
            > economist by training, so also know
            > where the pot holes are. Any help appreciated.
            >
            > JW
            >
            > On 6/22/2010 4:52 PM, John Rogers wrote:
            >> Dear
            >> community currency supporter
            >>
            >> We think you may be interested in a very special event this
            >> summer.
            >> Findhorn
            >> Ecovillage in Scotland is hosting 'On The Money - a
            >> Vision Quest to the
            >> Heart of Local Money', a five day workshop
            >> for local currency designers from
            >> August 14-18, 2010.
            >>
            >> Why
            >> now?
            >> Local
            >> money will play a critical role in the transition to the resilient
            >> communities of the future.
            >> A few community
            >> currencies have succeeded and lasted decades. Many have
            >> not sustained themselves.
            >> After
            >> thousands of experiments around the world it is
            >> time to apply the lessons learned to create a new generation of
            >> sustainable systems.
            >>
            >> What does the workshop cover?
            >>
            >> * Why, What,
            >> How, Who, Where and When of community currencies.
            >> * How to get
            >> past
            >> the initial enthusiasm and idealism to create a system that lasts.
            >> * How to
            >> choose
            >> the best design features.
            >> * How to involve
            >> your community in the development process.
            >> * The
            >> workshop will be high on methodology,
            >> low in ideology, as we critically engage with existing models and
            >> systems to identify what works best for your own situation.
            >>
            >> Who
            >> is leading it?
            >> John Rogers and Jonathan Dawson, both experienced
            >> community currency acitivists and teachers.
            >> With guest contributions from Richard Douthwaite, Margrit Kennedy
            >> and Bernard Lietaer and other community currency practitioners.
            >>
            >> We
            >> will
            >> learn together how to channel the idealism and enthusiasm driving
            >> community
            >> currrencies into using the right tools to do the job of design
            >> properly and create
            >> a quantum
            >> shift in practice.
            >> Please check out the short video about the
            >> workshop here: http://www.valueforpeople.co.uk/findhornworkshop
            >>
            >> Full
            >> workshop details here:
            >> http://www.findhorncollege.com/proftraining/moneysoul.php
            >>
            >> We
            >> hope you can join us!
            >>
            >> Best
            >> wishes
            >>
            >> John
            >> Rogers, Value for People
            >> Jonathan Dawson, Findhorn Ecovillage
            >>
            >>
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Each letter sent to cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
            > enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN whenever it does not state otherwise. http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org
            > Please be kind to our authors!
            >
            > Have a look at our wiki where we are creating an online learning environment for community currency: http://www.findbetterways.info/wiki.cgi?FindBetterWays/CommunityCurrency
            >
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to: cyfranogi@...
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: cyfranogi-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • John Rogers
            Hi Andrius I think you are replying to John Wassenaar s post below but I ll just butt in to say that if you are rethinking economics then forget about Hayek
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 11, 2010
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              Hi Andrius

              I think you are replying to John Wassenaar's post below but I'll just butt in to
              say that if you are 'rethinking economics' then forget about Hayek and von
              Mises, whose ideas are partly responsible for current messes through blind
              belief in unfettered, unregulated markets. Hayek's best idea was allowing a
              multiplicity of currencies to challenge the current hegemony of government fiat
              currencies.

              Best places to start would be:
              Hazel Henderson - one of the planet's finest systems thinkers:
              http://www.hazelhenderson.com/

              Glad to see you list Edward Fullbrook and Toxic Textbooks. Here's his paper 'How
              to bring economics into the 3rd millennium by 2020':
              http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue54/Fullbrook54.pdf

              It is on the site of the Post Autistic Economics Movement, started by French
              economics students in 2000: http://www.paecon.net/

              They publish a regular journal called Real World Economics
              Review:http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/

              John Rogers




              ________________________________
              From: Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@...>
              To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com; livingbytruth@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, 10 November, 2010 16:15:52
              Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: On The Money Local Currency - Chicago


              Hi John,

              I'm currently in Chicago, living in Grand Crossing and working as a
              tutor in South Shore.

              In my free time, I'm thinking about the ways I have figured things out,
              about 200 so far. I'm hoping they might be the basis for a culture of
              independent thinkers, or in other words, Jesus's vision of the kingdom
              of heaven.

              Related to that, I'm writing a book "Math for Thinkers" for adult
              self-learners. Here are my notes:
              http://www.helproom.org/Value/DeepIdeas
              http://www.helproom.org/Value/MathForThinkers
              I'd like to include many examples of mathematical thinking that arise in
              analyzing our economic system.

              Last week I met with Michael Lucci, a recent graduate who is very
              interested in rethinking economics. He is studying the Austrian
              economists Friedrich Hayek and Ludwig von Mises. So we'll be writing
              and thinking about the principles of economics. Here are some notes
              from our meeting:
              http://www.helproom.org/Value/Economics

              In particular, I'd like to draw a conceptual map of the macro economy,
              researching the total amounts of money and wealth in various forms
              (stocks, bonds, loans, property, wages, taxes, etc.) and how they flow
              in the economy.

              I note that there is a "Toxic Textbooks" movement
              http://www.toxictextbooks.com to write post-crisis economics textbooks.

              Here's one helpful tool, the Wolfram Alpha answer engine, and an example
              that Michael is interested in, the relationship between the prices of
              gold and oil: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=gold+vs+oil

              I also alert Michael to Bernard Lietaer's book "The Future of Money"
              http://www.lietaer.com
              http://www.lietaer.com/writings/books/the-future-of-money/

              I want my book and related learning materials to be in the Public
              Domain, copyright-free.
              http://www.helproom.org/Value/Open
              I also want to make a living from this or related work. I think that
              should be possible, but will require great creativity and flexibility.
              I appreciate ideas. Here are some directions I'm working on:
              http://www.helproom.org/Value/BusinessIdeas

              John, I'm curious to learn more about your interests.

              Andrius

              Andrius Kulikauskas
              Minciu Sodas
              ms@...
              (773) 306-3807

              On 11/02/2010 05:45 PM, jw wrote:
              > Hi. I am John Wassenaar. I did some writing on this list a while ago,
              > but have been silent for a while. I am
              > interested in the local currencies issue, wonder if anyone knows of
              > groups or individuals working in this area in
              > the midwestern US, preferably Chicago. I have done some reading, am an
              > economist by training, so also know
              > where the pot holes are. Any help appreciated.
              >
              > JW
              >
              > On 6/22/2010 4:52 PM, John Rogers wrote:
              >> Dear
              >> community currency supporter
              >>
              >> We think you may be interested in a very special event this
              >> summer.
              >> Findhorn
              >> Ecovillage in Scotland is hosting 'On The Money - a
              >> Vision Quest to the
              >> Heart of Local Money', a five day workshop
              >> for local currency designers from
              >> August 14-18, 2010.
              >>
              >> Why
              >> now?
              >> Local
              >> money will play a critical role in the transition to the resilient
              >> communities of the future.
              >> A few community
              >> currencies have succeeded and lasted decades. Many have
              >> not sustained themselves.
              >> After
              >> thousands of experiments around the world it is
              >> time to apply the lessons learned to create a new generation of
              >> sustainable systems.
              >>
              >> What does the workshop cover?
              >>
              >> * Why, What,
              >> How, Who, Where and When of community currencies.
              >> * How to get
              >> past
              >> the initial enthusiasm and idealism to create a system that lasts.
              >> * How to
              >> choose
              >> the best design features.
              >> * How to involve
              >> your community in the development process.
              >> * The
              >> workshop will be high on methodology,
              >> low in ideology, as we critically engage with existing models and
              >> systems to identify what works best for your own situation.
              >>
              >> Who
              >> is leading it?
              >> John Rogers and Jonathan Dawson, both experienced
              >> community currency acitivists and teachers.
              >> With guest contributions from Richard Douthwaite, Margrit Kennedy
              >> and Bernard Lietaer and other community currency practitioners.
              >>
              >> We
              >> will
              >> learn together how to channel the idealism and enthusiasm driving
              >> community
              >> currrencies into using the right tools to do the job of design
              >> properly and create
              >> a quantum
              >> shift in practice.
              >> Please check out the short video about the
              >> workshop here: http://www.valueforpeople.co.uk/findhornworkshop
              >>
              >> Full
              >> workshop details here:
              >> http://www.findhorncollege.com/proftraining/moneysoul.php
              >>
              >> We
              >> hope you can join us!
              >>
              >> Best
              >> wishes
              >>
              >> John
              >> Rogers, Value for People
              >> Jonathan Dawson, Findhorn Ecovillage
              >>
              >>
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Each letter sent to cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
              > enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN whenever it does not state otherwise.
              >http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org
              > Please be kind to our authors!
              >
              > Have a look at our wiki where we are creating an online learning environment
              >for community currency:
              >http://www.findbetterways.info/wiki.cgi?FindBetterWays/CommunityCurrency
              >
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to: cyfranogi@...
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              >cyfranogi-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Meredith L. Patterson
              ... I think it s just as fair to say forget about John Maynard Keynes, whose ideas are also partially responsible for current messes through blind belief in
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 11, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 11:31 PM, John Rogers <atholl2003@...>wrote:

                >
                >
                > Hi Andrius
                >
                > I think you are replying to John Wassenaar's post below but I'll just butt
                > in to
                > say that if you are 'rethinking economics' then forget about Hayek and von
                > Mises, whose ideas are partly responsible for current messes through blind
                > belief in unfettered, unregulated markets.
                >

                I think it's just as fair to say forget about John Maynard Keynes, whose
                ideas are also partially responsible for current messes through blind belief
                in money supply inflation and the hyperextension of credit.

                I suppose if you take Hayek's ideas and completely leave out everything in
                them that has to do with externalities then you end up with a mess rather
                like the one we're in. Which, as near as I can tell, is pretty much *exactly
                what happened*.


                > Hayek's best idea was allowing a
                > multiplicity of currencies to challenge the current hegemony of government
                > fiat
                > currencies.
                >

                It's needed to happen for a long time. Recently I've heard of a few software
                projects that are headed in this direction, incidentally.

                Cheers,
                --mlp


                > Best places to start would be:
                > Hazel Henderson - one of the planet's finest systems thinkers:
                > http://www.hazelhenderson.com/
                >
                > Glad to see you list Edward Fullbrook and Toxic Textbooks. Here's his paper
                > 'How
                > to bring economics into the 3rd millennium by 2020':
                > http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue54/Fullbrook54.pdf
                >
                > It is on the site of the Post Autistic Economics Movement, started by
                > French
                > economics students in 2000: http://www.paecon.net/
                >
                > They publish a regular journal called Real World Economics
                > Review:http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/
                >
                > John Rogers
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@... <ms%40ms.lt>>
                > To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com <cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com>;
                > livingbytruth@yahoogroups.com <livingbytruth%40yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Wed, 10 November, 2010 16:15:52
                > Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: On The Money Local Currency - Chicago
                >
                >
                > Hi John,
                >
                > I'm currently in Chicago, living in Grand Crossing and working as a
                > tutor in South Shore.
                >
                > In my free time, I'm thinking about the ways I have figured things out,
                > about 200 so far. I'm hoping they might be the basis for a culture of
                > independent thinkers, or in other words, Jesus's vision of the kingdom
                > of heaven.
                >
                > Related to that, I'm writing a book "Math for Thinkers" for adult
                > self-learners. Here are my notes:
                > http://www.helproom.org/Value/DeepIdeas
                > http://www.helproom.org/Value/MathForThinkers
                > I'd like to include many examples of mathematical thinking that arise in
                > analyzing our economic system.
                >
                > Last week I met with Michael Lucci, a recent graduate who is very
                > interested in rethinking economics. He is studying the Austrian
                > economists Friedrich Hayek and Ludwig von Mises. So we'll be writing
                > and thinking about the principles of economics. Here are some notes
                > from our meeting:
                > http://www.helproom.org/Value/Economics
                >
                > In particular, I'd like to draw a conceptual map of the macro economy,
                > researching the total amounts of money and wealth in various forms
                > (stocks, bonds, loans, property, wages, taxes, etc.) and how they flow
                > in the economy.
                >
                > I note that there is a "Toxic Textbooks" movement
                > http://www.toxictextbooks.com to write post-crisis economics textbooks.
                >
                > Here's one helpful tool, the Wolfram Alpha answer engine, and an example
                > that Michael is interested in, the relationship between the prices of
                > gold and oil: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=gold+vs+oil
                >
                > I also alert Michael to Bernard Lietaer's book "The Future of Money"
                > http://www.lietaer.com
                > http://www.lietaer.com/writings/books/the-future-of-money/
                >
                > I want my book and related learning materials to be in the Public
                > Domain, copyright-free.
                > http://www.helproom.org/Value/Open
                > I also want to make a living from this or related work. I think that
                > should be possible, but will require great creativity and flexibility.
                > I appreciate ideas. Here are some directions I'm working on:
                > http://www.helproom.org/Value/BusinessIdeas
                >
                > John, I'm curious to learn more about your interests.
                >
                > Andrius
                >
                > Andrius Kulikauskas
                > Minciu Sodas
                > ms@... <ms%40ms.lt>
                > (773) 306-3807
                >
                > On 11/02/2010 05:45 PM, jw wrote:
                > > Hi. I am John Wassenaar. I did some writing on this list a while ago,
                > > but have been silent for a while. I am
                > > interested in the local currencies issue, wonder if anyone knows of
                > > groups or individuals working in this area in
                > > the midwestern US, preferably Chicago. I have done some reading, am an
                > > economist by training, so also know
                > > where the pot holes are. Any help appreciated.
                > >
                > > JW
                > >
                > > On 6/22/2010 4:52 PM, John Rogers wrote:
                > >> Dear
                > >> community currency supporter
                > >>
                > >> We think you may be interested in a very special event this
                > >> summer.
                > >> Findhorn
                > >> Ecovillage in Scotland is hosting 'On The Money - a
                > >> Vision Quest to the
                > >> Heart of Local Money', a five day workshop
                > >> for local currency designers from
                > >> August 14-18, 2010.
                > >>
                > >> Why
                > >> now?
                > >> Local
                > >> money will play a critical role in the transition to the resilient
                > >> communities of the future.
                > >> A few community
                > >> currencies have succeeded and lasted decades. Many have
                > >> not sustained themselves.
                > >> After
                > >> thousands of experiments around the world it is
                > >> time to apply the lessons learned to create a new generation of
                > >> sustainable systems.
                > >>
                > >> What does the workshop cover?
                > >>
                > >> * Why, What,
                > >> How, Who, Where and When of community currencies.
                > >> * How to get
                > >> past
                > >> the initial enthusiasm and idealism to create a system that lasts.
                > >> * How to
                > >> choose
                > >> the best design features.
                > >> * How to involve
                > >> your community in the development process.
                > >> * The
                > >> workshop will be high on methodology,
                > >> low in ideology, as we critically engage with existing models and
                > >> systems to identify what works best for your own situation.
                > >>
                > >> Who
                > >> is leading it?
                > >> John Rogers and Jonathan Dawson, both experienced
                > >> community currency acitivists and teachers.
                > >> With guest contributions from Richard Douthwaite, Margrit Kennedy
                > >> and Bernard Lietaer and other community currency practitioners.
                > >>
                > >> We
                > >> will
                > >> learn together how to channel the idealism and enthusiasm driving
                > >> community
                > >> currrencies into using the right tools to do the job of design
                > >> properly and create
                > >> a quantum
                > >> shift in practice.
                > >> Please check out the short video about the
                > >> workshop here: http://www.valueforpeople.co.uk/findhornworkshop
                > >>
                > >> Full
                > >> workshop details here:
                > >> http://www.findhorncollege.com/proftraining/moneysoul.php
                > >>
                > >> We
                > >> hope you can join us!
                > >>
                > >> Best
                > >> wishes
                > >>
                > >> John
                > >> Rogers, Value for People
                > >> Jonathan Dawson, Findhorn Ecovillage
                > >>
                > >>
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Each letter sent to cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com<cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN whenever it does not state otherwise.
                > >http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org
                > > Please be kind to our authors!
                > >
                > > Have a look at our wiki where we are creating an online learning
                > environment
                > >for community currency:
                > >http://www.findbetterways.info/wiki.cgi?FindBetterWays/CommunityCurrency
                > >
                > >
                > > To Post a message, send it to: cyfranogi@...<cyfranogi%40yahooGroups.com>
                > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                > >cyfranogi-unsubscribe@...<cyfranogi-unsubscribe%40yahooGroups.comYahoo>!
                > Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Andrius Kulikauskas
                John Rogers, Meredith Patterson, Thank you for your letters at John s group Cyfranogi, which I also share at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 11, 2010
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                  John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,

                  Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also share
                  at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
                  look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.

                  Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester. Perry
                  gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking. I learned that
                  there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers. Here
                  are some of the books:
                  * "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
                  * "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
                  Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
                  * "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
                  by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
                  * "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
                  with others.
                  And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and postmodern
                  age.

                  Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me? It's
                  great! Thank you.

                  I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
                  http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
                  I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
                  such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
                  Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
                  * Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
                  * Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
                  * Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
                  * Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
                  * World bond market: 82 trillion USD
                  Per Year:
                  * Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
                  * Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
                  * US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
                  * Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
                  * Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
                  * World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)

                  This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                  system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                  useful information?

                  Andrius

                  Andrius Kulikauskas
                  Minciu Sodas
                  http://www.helproom.org
                  (773) 306-3807


                  On 11/11/2010 05:42 PM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
                  > On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 11:31 PM, John Rogers<atholl2003@...>wrote:
                  >
                  >> Hi Andrius
                  >>
                  >> I think you are replying to John Wassenaar's post below but I'll just butt
                  >> in to
                  >> say that if you are 'rethinking economics' then forget about Hayek and von
                  >> Mises, whose ideas are partly responsible for current messes through blind
                  >> belief in unfettered, unregulated markets.
                  > I think it's just as fair to say forget about John Maynard Keynes, whose
                  > ideas are also partially responsible for current messes through blind belief
                  > in money supply inflation and the hyperextension of credit.
                  >
                  > I suppose if you take Hayek's ideas and completely leave out everything in
                  > them that has to do with externalities then you end up with a mess rather
                  > like the one we're in. Which, as near as I can tell, is pretty much *exactly
                  > what happened*.
                  >
                  >> Hayek's best idea was allowing a
                  >> multiplicity of currencies to challenge the current hegemony of government
                  >> fiat
                  >> currencies.
                  >>
                  > It's needed to happen for a long time. Recently I've heard of a few software
                  > projects that are headed in this direction, incidentally.
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  > --mlp
                  >
                  >
                  >> Best places to start would be:
                  >> Hazel Henderson - one of the planet's finest systems thinkers:
                  >> http://www.hazelhenderson.com/
                  >>
                  >> Glad to see you list Edward Fullbrook and Toxic Textbooks. Here's his paper
                  >> 'How
                  >> to bring economics into the 3rd millennium by 2020':
                  >> http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue54/Fullbrook54.pdf
                  >>
                  >> It is on the site of the Post Autistic Economics Movement, started by
                  >> French
                  >> economics students in 2000: http://www.paecon.net/
                  >>
                  >> They publish a regular journal called Real World Economics
                  >> Review:http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/
                  >>
                  >> John Rogers
                • Meredith L. Patterson
                  Andrius, Check out http://www.gapminder.org/ and Hans Rosling s amazing TED talk about it,
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 12, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Andrius,

                    Check out http://www.gapminder.org/ and Hans Rosling's amazing TED talk
                    about it,
                    http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html.
                    It's a tool for tracking statistical and economic data over time. Much of
                    the data they have (http://www.gapminder.org/data/) has to do with health
                    and wellness, but you'll also find things like the consumer price index,
                    energy usage per person, external debt per person, GDP per capita, working
                    hours per week and so on.

                    Cheers,
                    --mlp

                    On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@...> wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,
                    >
                    > Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also share
                    > at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
                    > look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.
                    >
                    > Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester. Perry
                    > gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking. I learned that
                    > there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers. Here
                    > are some of the books:
                    > * "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
                    > * "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
                    > Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
                    > * "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
                    > by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
                    > * "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
                    > with others.
                    > And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and postmodern
                    > age.
                    >
                    > Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me? It's
                    > great! Thank you.
                    >
                    > I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
                    > http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
                    > I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
                    > such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
                    > Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
                    > * Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
                    > * Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
                    > * Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
                    > * Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
                    > * World bond market: 82 trillion USD
                    > Per Year:
                    > * Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
                    > * Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
                    > * US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
                    > * Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
                    > * Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
                    > * World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)
                    >
                    > This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                    > system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                    > useful information?
                    >
                    > Andrius
                    >
                    > Andrius Kulikauskas
                    > Minciu Sodas
                    > http://www.helproom.org
                    > (773) 306-3807
                    >
                    > On 11/11/2010 05:42 PM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
                    > > On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 11:31 PM, John Rogers<atholl2003@...<atholl2003%40yahoo.co.uk>
                    > >wrote:
                    > >
                    > >> Hi Andrius
                    > >>
                    > >> I think you are replying to John Wassenaar's post below but I'll just
                    > butt
                    > >> in to
                    > >> say that if you are 'rethinking economics' then forget about Hayek and
                    > von
                    > >> Mises, whose ideas are partly responsible for current messes through
                    > blind
                    > >> belief in unfettered, unregulated markets.
                    > > I think it's just as fair to say forget about John Maynard Keynes, whose
                    > > ideas are also partially responsible for current messes through blind
                    > belief
                    > > in money supply inflation and the hyperextension of credit.
                    > >
                    > > I suppose if you take Hayek's ideas and completely leave out everything
                    > in
                    > > them that has to do with externalities then you end up with a mess rather
                    > > like the one we're in. Which, as near as I can tell, is pretty much
                    > *exactly
                    > > what happened*.
                    > >
                    > >> Hayek's best idea was allowing a
                    > >> multiplicity of currencies to challenge the current hegemony of
                    > government
                    > >> fiat
                    > >> currencies.
                    > >>
                    > > It's needed to happen for a long time. Recently I've heard of a few
                    > software
                    > > projects that are headed in this direction, incidentally.
                    > >
                    > > Cheers,
                    > > --mlp
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >> Best places to start would be:
                    > >> Hazel Henderson - one of the planet's finest systems thinkers:
                    > >> http://www.hazelhenderson.com/
                    > >>
                    > >> Glad to see you list Edward Fullbrook and Toxic Textbooks. Here's his
                    > paper
                    > >> 'How
                    > >> to bring economics into the 3rd millennium by 2020':
                    > >> http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue54/Fullbrook54.pdf
                    > >>
                    > >> It is on the site of the Post Autistic Economics Movement, started by
                    > >> French
                    > >> economics students in 2000: http://www.paecon.net/
                    > >>
                    > >> They publish a regular journal called Real World Economics
                    > >> Review:http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/
                    > >>
                    > >> John Rogers
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ralf Schlatterbeck
                    ... You might want to directly look at the reports from the International Monetary Fund for things like global Gross Domestic Product (GDP) data (also for
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 12, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 01:28:06AM -0600, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
                      > This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                      > system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                      > useful information?
                      You might want to directly look at the reports from the International
                      Monetary Fund for things like global Gross Domestic Product (GDP) data
                      (also for different countries) although we all know here that GDP isn't
                      really a very good indicator.
                      http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/weodata/index.aspx

                      Or for other economic data (like derivatives) you might want to look at
                      the reports from the Bank for International Settlements
                      http://www.bis.org, they produce quarterly reports in PDF format where
                      you get a lot of interesting numbers. You should get the "Statistical
                      annex" to the "BIS Quarterly Review"
                      http://www.bis.org/publ/quarterly.htm

                      Some time ago I used these sources to plot GDP vs money held in
                      derivatives (graphics attached). This clearly shows how fragile the
                      whole interest system has become... the text in the graphics is in
                      german, "Milliarden" = "Billion", "Derivate" = "Derivatives",
                      "Weltsozialprodukt" = "World Gross Domestic Product", and yes: the
                      highest point in the red curve is really almost 700000 Billion = 700
                      Trillion US$...

                      Ralf
                      --
                      Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck Tel: +43/2243/26465-16
                      Open Source Consulting www: http://www.runtux.com
                      Reichergasse 131 email: office@...
                      A-3411 Weidling
                      osAlliance member email: rsc@...


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ralf Schlatterbeck
                      ... Do you have a list of these online somewhere or can post to the list? I m collecting information on these issues, we are a group here who research the
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 12, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 12:42:49AM +0100, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
                        >
                        > It's needed to happen for a long time. Recently I've heard of a few software
                        > projects that are headed in this direction, incidentally.

                        Do you have a list of these online somewhere or can post to the list?
                        I'm collecting information on these issues, we are a group here who
                        research the possibilities of a p2p money system -- similar to what is
                        established for file-sharing where initial systems where centralized
                        (like Napster) and later decentralised systems like Gnutella were built.

                        Thanks,
                        Ralf
                        --
                        Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck Tel: +43/2243/26465-16
                        Open Source Consulting www: http://www.runtux.com
                        Reichergasse 131 email: office@...
                        A-3411 Weidling
                        osAlliance member email: rsc@...
                      • Andrius Kulikauskas
                        Meredith, Ralf, Thank you! I share your letters and links. Meredith, http://www.gapminder.org is truly impressive. I saw a nice chart of life expectancy vs.
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 12, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Meredith, Ralf, Thank you! I share your letters and links.

                          Meredith, http://www.gapminder.org is truly impressive.

                          I saw a nice chart of life expectancy vs. wealth for all the nations
                          which you could then view over 200 years as a video.

                          Then I saw that there are 438 different statistics. There's a few for
                          "Economy"=>"Economic Situation" such as Tax revenues as percentage of GDP.

                          What's great is that you can compare any two statistics and make a
                          chart. For example, you can study alcohol consumption or murder rates etc.

                          It's also possible to compare US states, EU countries, China's provinces
                          and India's states with countries of the world:
                          http://www.gapminder.org/labs/

                          What this makes clear to me for my book is that I should really focus on
                          the ideas in math, for example, how to use such a resource, rather than
                          trying to take its place.

                          Still, I'm wondering if there's a resource that illustrates the global
                          or national macroeconomy, the forms of wealth and how they flow from one
                          to another. I found this site:
                          http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/macroeconomics.html
                          Here's an example applet:
                          http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/tutor/circularflow_applet.html

                          Thank you!

                          Andrius Kulikauskas, Minciu Sodas, http://www.helproom.org, (773) 306-3807


                          On 11/12/2010 05:16 AM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
                          > Andrius,
                          >
                          > Check out http://www.gapminder.org/ and Hans Rosling's amazing TED talk
                          > about it,
                          > http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html.
                          > It's a tool for tracking statistical and economic data over time. Much of
                          > the data they have (http://www.gapminder.org/data/) has to do with health
                          > and wellness, but you'll also find things like the consumer price index,
                          > energy usage per person, external debt per person, GDP per capita, working
                          > hours per week and so on.
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          > --mlp

                          On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 01:28:06AM -0600, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
                          > > This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                          > > system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                          > > useful information?
                          You might want to directly look at the reports from the International
                          Monetary Fund for things like global Gross Domestic Product (GDP) data
                          (also for different countries) although we all know here that GDP isn't
                          really a very good indicator.
                          http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/weodata/index.aspx

                          Or for other economic data (like derivatives) you might want to look at
                          the reports from the Bank for International Settlements
                          http://www.bis.org, they produce quarterly reports in PDF format where
                          you get a lot of interesting numbers. You should get the "Statistical
                          annex" to the "BIS Quarterly Review"
                          http://www.bis.org/publ/quarterly.htm

                          Some time ago I used these sources to plot GDP vs money held in
                          derivatives (graphics attached). This clearly shows how fragile the
                          whole interest system has become... the text in the graphics is in
                          german, "Milliarden" = "Billion", "Derivate" = "Derivatives",
                          "Weltsozialprodukt" = "World Gross Domestic Product", and yes: the
                          highest point in the red curve is really almost 700000 Billion = 700
                          Trillion US$...

                          Ralf
                          -- Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck Tel: +43/2243/26465-16 Open Source Consulting
                          www: http://www.runtux.com Reichergasse 131 email: office@...
                          A-3411 Weidling osAlliance member email: rsc@...

                          > On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >> John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,
                          >>
                          >> Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also share
                          >> at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
                          >> look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.
                          >>
                          >> Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester. Perry
                          >> gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking. I learned that
                          >> there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers. Here
                          >> are some of the books:
                          >> * "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
                          >> * "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
                          >> Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
                          >> * "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
                          >> by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
                          >> * "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
                          >> with others.
                          >> And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and postmodern
                          >> age.
                          >>
                          >> Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me? It's
                          >> great! Thank you.
                          >>
                          >> I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
                          >> http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
                          >> I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
                          >> such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
                          >> Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
                          >> * Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
                          >> * Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
                          >> * Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
                          >> * Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
                          >> * World bond market: 82 trillion USD
                          >> Per Year:
                          >> * Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
                          >> * Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
                          >> * US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
                          >> * Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
                          >> * Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
                          >> * World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)
                          >>
                          >> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                          >> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                          >> useful information?
                          >>
                          >> Andrius
                          >>
                          >> Andrius Kulikauskas
                          >> Minciu Sodas
                          >> http://www.helproom.org
                          >> (773) 306-3807
                          >>
                        • John Rogers
                          Andrius, Meredith, Ralf, John Great to see some activity in this group again after so long silence! If we want to rethink economics then we need to go back to
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 13, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Andrius, Meredith, Ralf, John

                            Great to see some activity in this group again after so long silence!

                            If we want to rethink economics then we need to go back to basics.

                            The first thing that strikes me about Andrius's list of global economic figures
                            - the 'world's wealth' - is that the planet itself and all its 'free'
                            'eco-system services' is missing.


                            I prefer to listen to the voices of Native peoples to get some insights here:

                            "Only when the last tree has died, the last river has been poisoned and the
                            last fish has been caught will we realize that we cannot eat money." Cree
                            Indian Proverb

                            Or more enlightened Western thinkers such as Herman Daly, founder of ecological
                            economics:
                            "The economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment, not the reverse."

                            The word 'economy' is ancient Greek meaning 'rules of the household' ie
                            balancing what comes in with what goes out. The word 'ecology' is the study of
                            our planetary 'house'. So both economics and ecology are about balance within
                            finite systems.

                            But what we think of as economics only emerged in the 18th century with people
                            like Adam Smith and 'The Wealth of Nations' and the tradition of neo-classical
                            and neo-liberal economics that grew out of it. This tradition has effectively
                            staged a coup of university economics teaching which is now dominated by fancy
                            mathematics masking vested interests and is really what Hazel Henderson called
                            'politics in disguise'.


                            It is why the economics students of Paris staged a mini-revolution in the world
                            of academic economics in the year 2000 to start the Post Autistic Economics
                            movement and argue for an economics in touch with the real world of planetary
                            limits and human communities. In other words, paying attention to the true
                            effects of externalities and asking what we are going to do about them to bring
                            about resilience, survival and sustainability. Economics Professors like Edward
                            Fullbrook and his Toxic Textbooks movement are playing a part in this
                            revolution.

                            The other essential point that Hazel Henderson, Marilyn Waring and Edgar Cahn
                            have made is the importance of what we measure. For instance, if we only measure
                            things as wealth, growth and progress that have dollar signs against them, then
                            we are doomed to damage all the things that make us truly happy such as a
                            healthy physical, emotional and intellectual environment. It is truly absurd
                            that locking people up in prisons or old peoples' homes registers as 'growth'
                            because it creates jobs and building contracts when what it actually reflects is
                            the sickness of societies that cannot create healthy environments.

                            Check out:
                            Hazel Henderson's Quality of Life indicators:
                            http://www.ethicalmarkets.com/about/calvert-henderson-quality-of-life-indicators/


                            Marilyn Waring's work: http://marilynwaring.com/index.html

                            Edgar Cahn on co-production and time banking: http://www.timebanks.org/
                            Watch the 15 minute video of him on the home page talking about the Core
                            Economy.


                            John Rogers



                            ________________________________
                            From: Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@...>
                            To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com; livingbytruth@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Fri, 12 November, 2010 17:01:41
                            Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: Rethinking economics


                            Meredith, Ralf, Thank you! I share your letters and links.

                            Meredith, http://www.gapminder.org is truly impressive.

                            I saw a nice chart of life expectancy vs. wealth for all the nations
                            which you could then view over 200 years as a video.

                            Then I saw that there are 438 different statistics. There's a few for
                            "Economy"=>"Economic Situation" such as Tax revenues as percentage of GDP.

                            What's great is that you can compare any two statistics and make a
                            chart. For example, you can study alcohol consumption or murder rates etc.

                            It's also possible to compare US states, EU countries, China's provinces
                            and India's states with countries of the world:
                            http://www.gapminder.org/labs/

                            What this makes clear to me for my book is that I should really focus on
                            the ideas in math, for example, how to use such a resource, rather than
                            trying to take its place.

                            Still, I'm wondering if there's a resource that illustrates the global
                            or national macroeconomy, the forms of wealth and how they flow from one
                            to another. I found this site:
                            http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/macroeconomics.html
                            Here's an example applet:
                            http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/tutor/circularflow_applet.html

                            Thank you!

                            Andrius Kulikauskas, Minciu Sodas, http://www.helproom.org, (773) 306-3807

                            On 11/12/2010 05:16 AM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
                            > Andrius,
                            >
                            > Check out http://www.gapminder.org/ and Hans Rosling's amazing TED talk
                            > about it,
                            >http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html.
                            >.
                            > It's a tool for tracking statistical and economic data over time. Much of
                            > the data they have (http://www.gapminder.org/data/) has to do with health
                            > and wellness, but you'll also find things like the consumer price index,
                            > energy usage per person, external debt per person, GDP per capita, working
                            > hours per week and so on.
                            >
                            > Cheers,
                            > --mlp

                            On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 01:28:06AM -0600, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
                            > > This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                            > > system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                            > > useful information?
                            You might want to directly look at the reports from the International
                            Monetary Fund for things like global Gross Domestic Product (GDP) data
                            (also for different countries) although we all know here that GDP isn't
                            really a very good indicator.
                            http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/weodata/index.aspx

                            Or for other economic data (like derivatives) you might want to look at
                            the reports from the Bank for International Settlements
                            http://www.bis.org, they produce quarterly reports in PDF format where
                            you get a lot of interesting numbers. You should get the "Statistical
                            annex" to the "BIS Quarterly Review"
                            http://www.bis.org/publ/quarterly.htm

                            Some time ago I used these sources to plot GDP vs money held in
                            derivatives (graphics attached). This clearly shows how fragile the
                            whole interest system has become... the text in the graphics is in
                            german, "Milliarden" = "Billion", "Derivate" = "Derivatives",
                            "Weltsozialprodukt" = "World Gross Domestic Product", and yes: the
                            highest point in the red curve is really almost 700000 Billion = 700
                            Trillion US$...

                            Ralf
                            -- Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck Tel: +43/2243/26465-16 Open Source Consulting
                            www: http://www.runtux.com Reichergasse 131 email: office@...
                            A-3411 Weidling osAlliance member email: rsc@...

                            > On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >> John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,
                            >>
                            >> Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also share
                            >> at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
                            >> look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.
                            >>
                            >> Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester. Perry
                            >> gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking. I learned that
                            >> there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers. Here
                            >> are some of the books:
                            >> * "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
                            >> * "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
                            >> Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
                            >> * "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
                            >> by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
                            >> * "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
                            >> with others.
                            >> And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and postmodern
                            >> age.
                            >>
                            >> Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me? It's
                            >> great! Thank you.
                            >>
                            >> I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
                            >> http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
                            >> I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
                            >> such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
                            >> Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
                            >> * Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
                            >> * Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
                            >> * Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
                            >> * Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
                            >> * World bond market: 82 trillion USD
                            >> Per Year:
                            >> * Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
                            >> * Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
                            >> * US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
                            >> * Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
                            >> * Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
                            >> * World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)
                            >>
                            >> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                            >> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                            >> useful information?
                            >>
                            >> Andrius
                            >>
                            >> Andrius Kulikauskas
                            >> Minciu Sodas
                            >> http://www.helproom.org
                            >> (773) 306-3807
                            >>






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Benoit Couture
                            Salut John and everyone,   As a family, our lives has been taken to the front line of rethinking economics  of our local context.  Here s a note I just
                            Message 13 of 17 , Nov 13, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Salut John and everyone,
                               
                              As a family, our lives has been taken to the front line of "rethinking economics" of our local context.  Here's a note I just sent along with a petition that asks for the Canadian gov to include disabilities in all of their foreign efforts and contributions for aid:
                              http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/123/047/860/?z00m=19910612
                               
                               
                              "Our daughter was born wheelchair bound for ever, from a genetic spinal condition.
                              That was in 1985 in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, one year after the provincial government of Alberta adopted a "family first" policy, in regards to individuals born with chronic disabilities. 
                              In practise, such policy means releasing people born with disability, from enforced institutionalization by the State.
                              The idea was to support these people at home, in their respective families, instead of keeping them in a building with paid staff to care for them, throughout of their lives.
                               
                              Apart from keeping the families of those individuals as patients while pretending to be in partnership with them, all is well, from the political point of view of showing improvements over the past system.
                              While Canada goes on exporting help and support abroad, I wonder, why don't we first reach the completion of Alberta's social experiment, and THEN export our expertise.

                              In short, what we need to see for disabled people is what we need to see for the whole society when it comes to social policy, namely, we need to a vision and the knowledge of becoming part of the universal social policy that genuinely serves Health-Education-Correction in the sanctity of ongoing reconciliation of each with all and of all with each.

                              After 25 years of this " growing partnership",  my prayer and hope are for the governments and agencies who serve such worthy movement as extended health care and education, to realize how significant is the waste of such vital essence as the family, so that we all may get to be and to become a whole lot more invested into one another's well being...Amen to God's Yes in us all..."
                               
                              Benoit
                               
                              Ps:  In order to serve such a universal social policy as a co-ordinated Health-Education-Correction that I propose, we need to begin its implemetation by training yhe coming together of professionals and families, from early on at school and in community centres, in the apprenticeship of accessing services in a gradual sequence of "patient-client-partner", so as to progressively develop the personal and communal sense of responsibility in all knowledge and maturity.
                               

                              --- On Sat, 11/13/10, John Rogers <atholl2003@...> wrote:


                              From: John Rogers <atholl2003@...>
                              Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Re: Rethinking economics
                              To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                              Received: Saturday, November 13, 2010, 4:20 AM


                               



                              Andrius, Meredith, Ralf, John

                              Great to see some activity in this group again after so long silence!

                              If we want to rethink economics then we need to go back to basics.

                              The first thing that strikes me about Andrius's list of global economic figures
                              - the 'world's wealth' - is that the planet itself and all its 'free'
                              'eco-system services' is missing.

                              I prefer to listen to the voices of Native peoples to get some insights here:

                              "Only when the last tree has died, the last river has been poisoned and the
                              last fish has been caught will we realize that we cannot eat money." Cree
                              Indian Proverb

                              Or more enlightened Western thinkers such as Herman Daly, founder of ecological
                              economics:
                              "The economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment, not the reverse."

                              The word 'economy' is ancient Greek meaning 'rules of the household' ie
                              balancing what comes in with what goes out. The word 'ecology' is the study of
                              our planetary 'house'. So both economics and ecology are about balance within
                              finite systems.

                              But what we think of as economics only emerged in the 18th century with people
                              like Adam Smith and 'The Wealth of Nations' and the tradition of neo-classical
                              and neo-liberal economics that grew out of it. This tradition has effectively
                              staged a coup of university economics teaching which is now dominated by fancy
                              mathematics masking vested interests and is really what Hazel Henderson called
                              'politics in disguise'.

                              It is why the economics students of Paris staged a mini-revolution in the world
                              of academic economics in the year 2000 to start the Post Autistic Economics
                              movement and argue for an economics in touch with the real world of planetary
                              limits and human communities. In other words, paying attention to the true
                              effects of externalities and asking what we are going to do about them to bring
                              about resilience, survival and sustainability. Economics Professors like Edward
                              Fullbrook and his Toxic Textbooks movement are playing a part in this
                              revolution.

                              The other essential point that Hazel Henderson, Marilyn Waring and Edgar Cahn
                              have made is the importance of what we measure. For instance, if we only measure
                              things as wealth, growth and progress that have dollar signs against them, then
                              we are doomed to damage all the things that make us truly happy such as a
                              healthy physical, emotional and intellectual environment. It is truly absurd
                              that locking people up in prisons or old peoples' homes registers as 'growth'
                              because it creates jobs and building contracts when what it actually reflects is
                              the sickness of societies that cannot create healthy environments.

                              Check out:
                              Hazel Henderson's Quality of Life indicators:
                              http://www.ethicalmarkets.com/about/calvert-henderson-quality-of-life-indicators/

                              Marilyn Waring's work: http://marilynwaring.com/index.html

                              Edgar Cahn on co-production and time banking: http://www.timebanks.org/
                              Watch the 15 minute video of him on the home page talking about the Core
                              Economy.

                              John Rogers

                              ________________________________
                              From: Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@...>
                              To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com; livingbytruth@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Fri, 12 November, 2010 17:01:41
                              Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: Rethinking economics

                              Meredith, Ralf, Thank you! I share your letters and links.

                              Meredith, http://www.gapminder.org is truly impressive.

                              I saw a nice chart of life expectancy vs. wealth for all the nations
                              which you could then view over 200 years as a video.

                              Then I saw that there are 438 different statistics. There's a few for
                              "Economy"=>"Economic Situation" such as Tax revenues as percentage of GDP.

                              What's great is that you can compare any two statistics and make a
                              chart. For example, you can study alcohol consumption or murder rates etc.

                              It's also possible to compare US states, EU countries, China's provinces
                              and India's states with countries of the world:
                              http://www.gapminder.org/labs/

                              What this makes clear to me for my book is that I should really focus on
                              the ideas in math, for example, how to use such a resource, rather than
                              trying to take its place.

                              Still, I'm wondering if there's a resource that illustrates the global
                              or national macroeconomy, the forms of wealth and how they flow from one
                              to another. I found this site:
                              http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/macroeconomics.html
                              Here's an example applet:
                              http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/tutor/circularflow_applet.html

                              Thank you!

                              Andrius Kulikauskas, Minciu Sodas, http://www.helproom.org, (773) 306-3807

                              On 11/12/2010 05:16 AM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
                              > Andrius,
                              >
                              > Check out http://www.gapminder.org/ and Hans Rosling's amazing TED talk
                              > about it,
                              >http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html.
                              >.
                              > It's a tool for tracking statistical and economic data over time. Much of
                              > the data they have (http://www.gapminder.org/data/) has to do with health
                              > and wellness, but you'll also find things like the consumer price index,
                              > energy usage per person, external debt per person, GDP per capita, working
                              > hours per week and so on.
                              >
                              > Cheers,
                              > --mlp

                              On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 01:28:06AM -0600, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
                              > > This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                              > > system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                              > > useful information?
                              You might want to directly look at the reports from the International
                              Monetary Fund for things like global Gross Domestic Product (GDP) data
                              (also for different countries) although we all know here that GDP isn't
                              really a very good indicator.
                              http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/weodata/index.aspx

                              Or for other economic data (like derivatives) you might want to look at
                              the reports from the Bank for International Settlements
                              http://www.bis.org, they produce quarterly reports in PDF format where
                              you get a lot of interesting numbers. You should get the "Statistical
                              annex" to the "BIS Quarterly Review"
                              http://www.bis.org/publ/quarterly.htm

                              Some time ago I used these sources to plot GDP vs money held in
                              derivatives (graphics attached). This clearly shows how fragile the
                              whole interest system has become... the text in the graphics is in
                              german, "Milliarden" = "Billion", "Derivate" = "Derivatives",
                              "Weltsozialprodukt" = "World Gross Domestic Product", and yes: the
                              highest point in the red curve is really almost 700000 Billion = 700
                              Trillion US$...

                              Ralf
                              -- Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck Tel: +43/2243/26465-16 Open Source Consulting
                              www: http://www.runtux.com Reichergasse 131 email: office@...
                              A-3411 Weidling osAlliance member email: rsc@...

                              > On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >> John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,
                              >>
                              >> Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also share
                              >> at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
                              >> look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.
                              >>
                              >> Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester. Perry
                              >> gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking. I learned that
                              >> there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers. Here
                              >> are some of the books:
                              >> * "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
                              >> * "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
                              >> Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
                              >> * "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
                              >> by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
                              >> * "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
                              >> with others.
                              >> And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and postmodern
                              >> age.
                              >>
                              >> Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me? It's
                              >> great! Thank you.
                              >>
                              >> I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
                              >> http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
                              >> I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
                              >> such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
                              >> Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
                              >> * Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
                              >> * Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
                              >> * Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
                              >> * Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
                              >> * World bond market: 82 trillion USD
                              >> Per Year:
                              >> * Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
                              >> * Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
                              >> * US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
                              >> * Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
                              >> * Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
                              >> * World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)
                              >>
                              >> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                              >> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                              >> useful information?
                              >>
                              >> Andrius
                              >>
                              >> Andrius Kulikauskas
                              >> Minciu Sodas
                              >> http://www.helproom.org
                              >> (773) 306-3807
                              >>

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]










                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Andrius Kulikauskas
                              John, thank you for the links. Nevertheless, it would be useful for me to understand and communicate the current theory of macroeconomics and the existing
                              Message 14 of 17 , Dec 1, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                John, thank you for the links.

                                Nevertheless, it would be useful for me to understand and communicate
                                the current theory of macroeconomics and the existing models for the
                                flow of wealth. Then I would be in a position to show with great care
                                where the theory breaks down. Math, I suppose, is a care for the
                                absolute details, where and why they hold and where and why they break
                                down. A friend asked me to watch the Zeitgeist movie and I was
                                disappointed to see in that movie a real lack of care for the truth,
                                denouncing myths with even greater myths.

                                My feeling is that a lot of "alternate economy" thinking is
                                reintroducing the current economic paradigms. I look forward to better
                                appreciating the strengths and weaknesses of the current economy and
                                practically pursuing my own goals for a different way of making a living.

                                Andrius

                                Andrius Kulikauskas
                                Gospel Math
                                http://www.gospelmath.com
                                (773) 306-3807


                                On 11/13/2010 06:20 AM, John Rogers wrote:
                                > Andrius, Meredith, Ralf, John
                                >
                                > Great to see some activity in this group again after so long silence!
                                >
                                > If we want to rethink economics then we need to go back to basics.
                                >
                                > The first thing that strikes me about Andrius's list of global economic figures
                                > - the 'world's wealth' - is that the planet itself and all its 'free'
                                > 'eco-system services' is missing.
                                >
                                >
                                > I prefer to listen to the voices of Native peoples to get some insights here:
                                >
                                > "Only when the last tree has died, the last river has been poisoned and the
                                > last fish has been caught will we realize that we cannot eat money." Cree
                                > Indian Proverb
                                >
                                > Or more enlightened Western thinkers such as Herman Daly, founder of ecological
                                > economics:
                                > "The economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment, not the reverse."
                                >
                                > The word 'economy' is ancient Greek meaning 'rules of the household' ie
                                > balancing what comes in with what goes out. The word 'ecology' is the study of
                                > our planetary 'house'. So both economics and ecology are about balance within
                                > finite systems.
                                >
                                > But what we think of as economics only emerged in the 18th century with people
                                > like Adam Smith and 'The Wealth of Nations' and the tradition of neo-classical
                                > and neo-liberal economics that grew out of it. This tradition has effectively
                                > staged a coup of university economics teaching which is now dominated by fancy
                                > mathematics masking vested interests and is really what Hazel Henderson called
                                > 'politics in disguise'.
                                >
                                >
                                > It is why the economics students of Paris staged a mini-revolution in the world
                                > of academic economics in the year 2000 to start the Post Autistic Economics
                                > movement and argue for an economics in touch with the real world of planetary
                                > limits and human communities. In other words, paying attention to the true
                                > effects of externalities and asking what we are going to do about them to bring
                                > about resilience, survival and sustainability. Economics Professors like Edward
                                > Fullbrook and his Toxic Textbooks movement are playing a part in this
                                > revolution.
                                >
                                > The other essential point that Hazel Henderson, Marilyn Waring and Edgar Cahn
                                > have made is the importance of what we measure. For instance, if we only measure
                                > things as wealth, growth and progress that have dollar signs against them, then
                                > we are doomed to damage all the things that make us truly happy such as a
                                > healthy physical, emotional and intellectual environment. It is truly absurd
                                > that locking people up in prisons or old peoples' homes registers as 'growth'
                                > because it creates jobs and building contracts when what it actually reflects is
                                > the sickness of societies that cannot create healthy environments.
                                >
                                > Check out:
                                > Hazel Henderson's Quality of Life indicators:
                                > http://www.ethicalmarkets.com/about/calvert-henderson-quality-of-life-indicators/
                                >
                                >
                                > Marilyn Waring's work: http://marilynwaring.com/index.html
                                >
                                > Edgar Cahn on co-production and time banking: http://www.timebanks.org/
                                > Watch the 15 minute video of him on the home page talking about the Core
                                > Economy.
                                >
                                >
                                > John Rogers
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@...>
                                > To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com; livingbytruth@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Fri, 12 November, 2010 17:01:41
                                > Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: Rethinking economics
                                >
                                >
                                > Meredith, Ralf, Thank you! I share your letters and links.
                                >
                                > Meredith, http://www.gapminder.org is truly impressive.
                                >
                                > I saw a nice chart of life expectancy vs. wealth for all the nations
                                > which you could then view over 200 years as a video.
                                >
                                > Then I saw that there are 438 different statistics. There's a few for
                                > "Economy"=>"Economic Situation" such as Tax revenues as percentage of GDP.
                                >
                                > What's great is that you can compare any two statistics and make a
                                > chart. For example, you can study alcohol consumption or murder rates etc.
                                >
                                > It's also possible to compare US states, EU countries, China's provinces
                                > and India's states with countries of the world:
                                > http://www.gapminder.org/labs/
                                >
                                > What this makes clear to me for my book is that I should really focus on
                                > the ideas in math, for example, how to use such a resource, rather than
                                > trying to take its place.
                                >
                                > Still, I'm wondering if there's a resource that illustrates the global
                                > or national macroeconomy, the forms of wealth and how they flow from one
                                > to another. I found this site:
                                > http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/macroeconomics.html
                                > Here's an example applet:
                                > http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/tutor/circularflow_applet.html
                                >
                                > Thank you!
                                >
                                > Andrius Kulikauskas, Minciu Sodas, http://www.helproom.org, (773) 306-3807
                                >
                                > On 11/12/2010 05:16 AM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
                                >> Andrius,
                                >>
                                >> Check out http://www.gapminder.org/ and Hans Rosling's amazing TED talk
                                >> about it,
                                >> http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html.
                                >> .
                                >> It's a tool for tracking statistical and economic data over time. Much of
                                >> the data they have (http://www.gapminder.org/data/) has to do with health
                                >> and wellness, but you'll also find things like the consumer price index,
                                >> energy usage per person, external debt per person, GDP per capita, working
                                >> hours per week and so on.
                                >>
                                >> Cheers,
                                >> --mlp
                                > On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 01:28:06AM -0600, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
                                >>> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                                >>> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                                >>> useful information?
                                > You might want to directly look at the reports from the International
                                > Monetary Fund for things like global Gross Domestic Product (GDP) data
                                > (also for different countries) although we all know here that GDP isn't
                                > really a very good indicator.
                                > http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/weodata/index.aspx
                                >
                                > Or for other economic data (like derivatives) you might want to look at
                                > the reports from the Bank for International Settlements
                                > http://www.bis.org, they produce quarterly reports in PDF format where
                                > you get a lot of interesting numbers. You should get the "Statistical
                                > annex" to the "BIS Quarterly Review"
                                > http://www.bis.org/publ/quarterly.htm
                                >
                                > Some time ago I used these sources to plot GDP vs money held in
                                > derivatives (graphics attached). This clearly shows how fragile the
                                > whole interest system has become... the text in the graphics is in
                                > german, "Milliarden" = "Billion", "Derivate" = "Derivatives",
                                > "Weltsozialprodukt" = "World Gross Domestic Product", and yes: the
                                > highest point in the red curve is really almost 700000 Billion = 700
                                > Trillion US$...
                                >
                                > Ralf
                                > -- Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck Tel: +43/2243/26465-16 Open Source Consulting
                                > www: http://www.runtux.com Reichergasse 131 email: office@...
                                > A-3411 Weidling osAlliance member email: rsc@...
                                >
                                >> On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@...> wrote:
                                >>
                                >>> John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,
                                >>>
                                >>> Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also share
                                >>> at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
                                >>> look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.
                                >>>
                                >>> Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester. Perry
                                >>> gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking. I learned that
                                >>> there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers. Here
                                >>> are some of the books:
                                >>> * "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
                                >>> * "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
                                >>> Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
                                >>> * "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
                                >>> by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
                                >>> * "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
                                >>> with others.
                                >>> And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and postmodern
                                >>> age.
                                >>>
                                >>> Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me? It's
                                >>> great! Thank you.
                                >>>
                                >>> I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
                                >>> http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
                                >>> I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
                                >>> such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
                                >>> Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
                                >>> * Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
                                >>> * Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
                                >>> * Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
                                >>> * Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
                                >>> * World bond market: 82 trillion USD
                                >>> Per Year:
                                >>> * Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
                                >>> * Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
                                >>> * US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
                                >>> * Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
                                >>> * Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
                                >>> * World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)
                                >>>
                                >>> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                                >>> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                                >>> useful information?
                                >>>
                                >>> Andrius
                                >>>
                                >>> Andrius Kulikauskas
                                >>> Minciu Sodas
                                >>> http://www.helproom.org
                                >>> (773) 306-3807
                                >>>
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Each letter sent to cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                                > enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN whenever it does not state otherwise. http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org
                                > Please be kind to our authors!
                                >
                                > Have a look at our wiki where we are creating an online learning environment for community currency: http://www.findbetterways.info/wiki.cgi?FindBetterWays/CommunityCurrency
                                >
                                >
                                > To Post a message, send it to: cyfranogi@...
                                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: cyfranogi-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • jw
                                Andrius: Just for some background, you might look at this discussion (link below) so you know what you are stepping into. This goes on forever. I can only
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jan 18, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Andrius:

                                  Just for some background, you might look at this discussion (link below)
                                  so you know what you are stepping into. This goes on forever. I can
                                  only note that all of the discussions about money systems and power
                                  center around the thesis that there is a way to organize large groups of
                                  people, even world wide. I suspect that assumption needs a hard look.

                                  JW

                                  http://www.thedailybell.com/1684/Anthony-Wile-with-Ellen-Brown-on-the-Efficiencies-of-the-State-and-the-Progress-of-Her-Public-Banking-Vision---.html

                                  On 12/1/2010 10:53 PM, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
                                  >
                                  > John, thank you for the links.
                                  >
                                  > Nevertheless, it would be useful for me to understand and communicate
                                  > the current theory of macroeconomics and the existing models for the
                                  > flow of wealth. Then I would be in a position to show with great care
                                  > where the theory breaks down. Math, I suppose, is a care for the
                                  > absolute details, where and why they hold and where and why they break
                                  > down. A friend asked me to watch the Zeitgeist movie and I was
                                  > disappointed to see in that movie a real lack of care for the truth,
                                  > denouncing myths with even greater myths.
                                  >
                                  > My feeling is that a lot of "alternate economy" thinking is
                                  > reintroducing the current economic paradigms. I look forward to better
                                  > appreciating the strengths and weaknesses of the current economy and
                                  > practically pursuing my own goals for a different way of making a living.
                                  >
                                  > Andrius
                                  >
                                  > Andrius Kulikauskas
                                  > Gospel Math
                                  > http://www.gospelmath.com
                                  > (773) 306-3807
                                  >
                                  > On 11/13/2010 06:20 AM, John Rogers wrote:
                                  > > Andrius, Meredith, Ralf, John
                                  > >
                                  > > Great to see some activity in this group again after so long silence!
                                  > >
                                  > > If we want to rethink economics then we need to go back to basics.
                                  > >
                                  > > The first thing that strikes me about Andrius's list of global
                                  > economic figures
                                  > > - the 'world's wealth' - is that the planet itself and all its 'free'
                                  > > 'eco-system services' is missing.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > I prefer to listen to the voices of Native peoples to get some
                                  > insights here:
                                  > >
                                  > > "Only when the last tree has died, the last river has been poisoned
                                  > and the
                                  > > last fish has been caught will we realize that we cannot eat money."
                                  > Cree
                                  > > Indian Proverb
                                  > >
                                  > > Or more enlightened Western thinkers such as Herman Daly, founder of
                                  > ecological
                                  > > economics:
                                  > > "The economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment, not
                                  > the reverse."
                                  > >
                                  > > The word 'economy' is ancient Greek meaning 'rules of the household' ie
                                  > > balancing what comes in with what goes out. The word 'ecology' is
                                  > the study of
                                  > > our planetary 'house'. So both economics and ecology are about
                                  > balance within
                                  > > finite systems.
                                  > >
                                  > > But what we think of as economics only emerged in the 18th century
                                  > with people
                                  > > like Adam Smith and 'The Wealth of Nations' and the tradition of
                                  > neo-classical
                                  > > and neo-liberal economics that grew out of it. This tradition has
                                  > effectively
                                  > > staged a coup of university economics teaching which is now
                                  > dominated by fancy
                                  > > mathematics masking vested interests and is really what Hazel
                                  > Henderson called
                                  > > 'politics in disguise'.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > It is why the economics students of Paris staged a mini-revolution
                                  > in the world
                                  > > of academic economics in the year 2000 to start the Post Autistic
                                  > Economics
                                  > > movement and argue for an economics in touch with the real world of
                                  > planetary
                                  > > limits and human communities. In other words, paying attention to
                                  > the true
                                  > > effects of externalities and asking what we are going to do about
                                  > them to bring
                                  > > about resilience, survival and sustainability. Economics Professors
                                  > like Edward
                                  > > Fullbrook and his Toxic Textbooks movement are playing a part in this
                                  > > revolution.
                                  > >
                                  > > The other essential point that Hazel Henderson, Marilyn Waring and
                                  > Edgar Cahn
                                  > > have made is the importance of what we measure. For instance, if we
                                  > only measure
                                  > > things as wealth, growth and progress that have dollar signs against
                                  > them, then
                                  > > we are doomed to damage all the things that make us truly happy such
                                  > as a
                                  > > healthy physical, emotional and intellectual environment. It is
                                  > truly absurd
                                  > > that locking people up in prisons or old peoples' homes registers as
                                  > 'growth'
                                  > > because it creates jobs and building contracts when what it actually
                                  > reflects is
                                  > > the sickness of societies that cannot create healthy environments.
                                  > >
                                  > > Check out:
                                  > > Hazel Henderson's Quality of Life indicators:
                                  > >
                                  > http://www.ethicalmarkets.com/about/calvert-henderson-quality-of-life-indicators/
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Marilyn Waring's work: http://marilynwaring.com/index.html
                                  > >
                                  > > Edgar Cahn on co-production and time banking: http://www.timebanks.org/
                                  > > Watch the 15 minute video of him on the home page talking about the Core
                                  > > Economy.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > John Rogers
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ________________________________
                                  > > From: Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@... <mailto:ms%40ms.lt>>
                                  > > To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com>;
                                  > livingbytruth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:livingbytruth%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > Sent: Fri, 12 November, 2010 17:01:41
                                  > > Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: Rethinking economics
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Meredith, Ralf, Thank you! I share your letters and links.
                                  > >
                                  > > Meredith, http://www.gapminder.org is truly impressive.
                                  > >
                                  > > I saw a nice chart of life expectancy vs. wealth for all the nations
                                  > > which you could then view over 200 years as a video.
                                  > >
                                  > > Then I saw that there are 438 different statistics. There's a few for
                                  > > "Economy"=>"Economic Situation" such as Tax revenues as percentage
                                  > of GDP.
                                  > >
                                  > > What's great is that you can compare any two statistics and make a
                                  > > chart. For example, you can study alcohol consumption or murder
                                  > rates etc.
                                  > >
                                  > > It's also possible to compare US states, EU countries, China's provinces
                                  > > and India's states with countries of the world:
                                  > > http://www.gapminder.org/labs/
                                  > >
                                  > > What this makes clear to me for my book is that I should really focus on
                                  > > the ideas in math, for example, how to use such a resource, rather than
                                  > > trying to take its place.
                                  > >
                                  > > Still, I'm wondering if there's a resource that illustrates the global
                                  > > or national macroeconomy, the forms of wealth and how they flow from one
                                  > > to another. I found this site:
                                  > > http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/macroeconomics.html
                                  > > Here's an example applet:
                                  > > http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/tutor/circularflow_applet.html
                                  > >
                                  > > Thank you!
                                  > >
                                  > > Andrius Kulikauskas, Minciu Sodas, http://www.helproom.org, (773)
                                  > 306-3807
                                  > >
                                  > > On 11/12/2010 05:16 AM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
                                  > >> Andrius,
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Check out http://www.gapminder.org/ and Hans Rosling's amazing TED talk
                                  > >> about it,
                                  > >>
                                  > http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html.
                                  > >> .
                                  > >> It's a tool for tracking statistical and economic data over time.
                                  > Much of
                                  > >> the data they have (http://www.gapminder.org/data/) has to do with
                                  > health
                                  > >> and wellness, but you'll also find things like the consumer price
                                  > index,
                                  > >> energy usage per person, external debt per person, GDP per capita,
                                  > working
                                  > >> hours per week and so on.
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Cheers,
                                  > >> --mlp
                                  > > On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 01:28:06AM -0600, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
                                  > >>> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                                  > >>> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                                  > >>> useful information?
                                  > > You might want to directly look at the reports from the International
                                  > > Monetary Fund for things like global Gross Domestic Product (GDP) data
                                  > > (also for different countries) although we all know here that GDP isn't
                                  > > really a very good indicator.
                                  > > http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/weodata/index.aspx
                                  > >
                                  > > Or for other economic data (like derivatives) you might want to look at
                                  > > the reports from the Bank for International Settlements
                                  > > http://www.bis.org, they produce quarterly reports in PDF format where
                                  > > you get a lot of interesting numbers. You should get the "Statistical
                                  > > annex" to the "BIS Quarterly Review"
                                  > > http://www.bis.org/publ/quarterly.htm
                                  > >
                                  > > Some time ago I used these sources to plot GDP vs money held in
                                  > > derivatives (graphics attached). This clearly shows how fragile the
                                  > > whole interest system has become... the text in the graphics is in
                                  > > german, "Milliarden" = "Billion", "Derivate" = "Derivatives",
                                  > > "Weltsozialprodukt" = "World Gross Domestic Product", and yes: the
                                  > > highest point in the red curve is really almost 700000 Billion = 700
                                  > > Trillion US$...
                                  > >
                                  > > Ralf
                                  > > -- Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck Tel: +43/2243/26465-16 Open Source Consulting
                                  > > www: http://www.runtux.com Reichergasse 131 email: office@...
                                  > <mailto:office%40runtux.com>
                                  > > A-3411 Weidling osAlliance member email: rsc@...
                                  > <mailto:rsc%40osalliance.com>
                                  > >
                                  > >> On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@...
                                  > <mailto:ms%40ms.lt>> wrote:
                                  > >>
                                  > >>> John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>> Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also
                                  > share
                                  > >>> at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
                                  > >>> look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>> Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester. Perry
                                  > >>> gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking. I learned
                                  > that
                                  > >>> there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers.
                                  > Here
                                  > >>> are some of the books:
                                  > >>> * "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
                                  > >>> * "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
                                  > >>> Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
                                  > >>> * "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
                                  > >>> by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
                                  > >>> * "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
                                  > >>> with others.
                                  > >>> And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and
                                  > postmodern
                                  > >>> age.
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>> Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me? It's
                                  > >>> great! Thank you.
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>> I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
                                  > >>> http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
                                  > >>> I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
                                  > >>> such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
                                  > >>> Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
                                  > >>> * Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
                                  > >>> * Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
                                  > >>> * Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
                                  > >>> * Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
                                  > >>> * World bond market: 82 trillion USD
                                  > >>> Per Year:
                                  > >>> * Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
                                  > >>> * Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
                                  > >>> * US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
                                  > >>> * Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
                                  > >>> * Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
                                  > >>> * World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
                                  > >>> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
                                  > >>> useful information?
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>> Andrius
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>> Andrius Kulikauskas
                                  > >>> Minciu Sodas
                                  > >>> http://www.helproom.org
                                  > >>> (773) 306-3807
                                  > >>>
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ------------------------------------
                                  > >
                                  > > Each letter sent to cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                                  > <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN whenever it does not state otherwise.
                                  > http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org
                                  > > Please be kind to our authors!
                                  > >
                                  > > Have a look at our wiki where we are creating an online learning
                                  > environment for community currency:
                                  > http://www.findbetterways.info/wiki.cgi?FindBetterWays/CommunityCurrency
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > To Post a message, send it to: cyfranogi@...
                                  > <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahooGroups.com>
                                  > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                  > cyfranogi-unsubscribe@...
                                  > <mailto:cyfranogi-unsubscribe%40yahooGroups.comYahoo>! Groups Links
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Tom Wayburn
                                  JW, Are you implying that the people of the US - or any other nation state not undergoing active rebellion - are not organized around the current monetary
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jan 19, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    JW,



                                    Are you implying that the people of the US - or any other nation state not
                                    undergoing active rebellion - are not organized around the current monetary
                                    (economic) system? I would wish for no more organized group of people than
                                    these except that they should be organized around a different system.



                                    Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas





                                    <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cyfranogi/message/2771;_ylc=X3oDMTJxazgwbzd1B
                                    F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE2NjUzMTUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MzI5NzM0BG1zZ0lkAzI3NzEEc
                                    2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTI5NTQ0OTc1Ng--> Re: Rethinking economics


                                    Posted by: "jw"
                                    <mailto:jdwasse@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Rethinking%20economics>
                                    jdwasse@...


                                    Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:46 am (PST)




                                    Andrius:

                                    Just for some background, you might look at this discussion (link below)
                                    so you know what you are stepping into. This goes on forever. I can
                                    only note that all of the discussions about money systems and power
                                    center around the thesis that there is a way to organize large groups of
                                    people, even world wide. I suspect that assumption needs a hard look.

                                    JW


                                    <http://www.thedailybell.com/1684/Anthony-Wile-with-Ellen-Brown-on-the-Effic
                                    iencies-of-the-State-and-the-Progress-of-Her-Public-Banking-Vision---.html>
                                    http://www.thedailybell.com/1684/Anthony-Wile-with-Ellen-Brown-on-the-Effici
                                    encies-of-the-State-and-the-Progress-of-Her-Public-Banking-Vision---.html





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • jw
                                    I suspect that ethical money systems require fairly similar people, the kind of problem the European Common Market is struggling with right now. The US, for
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jan 19, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I suspect that ethical money systems require fairly similar people, the
                                      kind of problem the European Common Market is struggling with
                                      right now. The US, for example, may have too much diversity wrt
                                      economic development to be under a single currency. There may be
                                      gains for small groups to have their own currency, if the legal system
                                      will permit.

                                      JW

                                      On 1/19/2011 11:55 AM, Tom Wayburn wrote:
                                      >
                                      > JW,
                                      >
                                      > Are you implying that the people of the US - or any other nation state not
                                      > undergoing active rebellion - are not organized around the current
                                      > monetary
                                      > (economic) system? I would wish for no more organized group of people than
                                      > these except that they should be organized around a different system.
                                      >
                                      > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                      >
                                      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cyfranogi/message/2771;_ylc=X3oDMTJxazgwbzd1B
                                      > F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE2NjUzMTUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MzI5NzM0BG1zZ0lkAzI3NzEEc
                                      > 2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTI5NTQ0OTc1Ng--> Re: Rethinking economics
                                      >
                                      > Posted by: "jw"
                                      > <mailto:jdwasse@...
                                      > <mailto:jdwasse%40ripco.com>?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Rethinking%20economics>
                                      > jdwasse@... <mailto:jdwasse%40ripco.com>
                                      >
                                      > Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:46 am (PST)
                                      >
                                      > Andrius:
                                      >
                                      > Just for some background, you might look at this discussion (link below)
                                      > so you know what you are stepping into. This goes on forever. I can
                                      > only note that all of the discussions about money systems and power
                                      > center around the thesis that there is a way to organize large groups of
                                      > people, even world wide. I suspect that assumption needs a hard look.
                                      >
                                      > JW
                                      >
                                      > <http://www.thedailybell.com/1684/Anthony-Wile-with-Ellen-Brown-on-the-Effic
                                      > iencies-of-the-State-and-the-Progress-of-Her-Public-Banking-Vision---.html>
                                      > http://www.thedailybell.com/1684/Anthony-Wile-with-Ellen-Brown-on-the-Effici
                                      > encies-of-the-State-and-the-Progress-of-Her-Public-Banking-Vision---.html
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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