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Re: [cyfranogi] bird in hand currency

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  • John Rogers
    According to David Boyle s Little Book Of Money the lust for gold bankrupted the European economy and prices went up eightfold after the Spanish conquest of
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 3, 2008
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      According to David Boyle's Little Book Of Money the lust for gold bankrupted the European economy and prices went up eightfold after the Spanish conquest of South America. He also claims that there is only enough gold in the world to fill a few semi-detached houses. What use is that to inspire confidence for the vast portion of humanity who will never have access to gold?

      Not sure how you can recommend books as a currency that everyone would accept having said that 'paper currency' is inconsistent in value. Aren't books made of paper?

      A 'unit' of labour can be whatever we agree, from a second (I am exaggerating to make a point) to a day, a week, a month, whatever we agree upon as a universal standard. For the sake of argument let us agree it is one hour. Once we have a universal labour 'hour standard' then people can negotiate on that basis. If someone claims they spent five years getting a professional education and want to bill for 10 hours for one real hour of work and someone else is willing to accept it, then they can trade. In another system everyone may agree to stick to an equality of time standard so that one hour equals one hour. In another system, people may wish to break the standard down into 'ten minute' units for 'small change'.

      Some people will give a lot better 'value' in their hour of work than someone else. Word soon gets around and reputation for good or bad work is established. On the other hand, the 'bad' worker may be very good company, tell great stories and the person employing them may be happy to employ them again. This is the real world of reputation and negotiation which all economic systems have to deal with. The advantage of a time standard is that time is a universal commodity not limited in supply like 'things' are.

      Energy is a different case. Before establishing energy as a standard, detailed analysis of local energy supply would have to be undertaken to assess its viability. I see it working at two levels: first, local currency issued to people who demonstrably *decrease* their energy use measured against a common standard such as a Co2 'footprint' for instance; second, local currency issued to those who generate energy from sustainable sources such as solar panels on their roofs or community energy projects such as windfarms, biomass etc. The 'standard of value' could be the kilowatt hour. All currency issued against this can go into circulation to facilitate local trade, community building etc.

      John Rogers





      ----- Original Message ----
      From: william wendt <wholelephant@...>
      To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, 28 March, 2008 4:01:10 PM
      Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] bird in hand currency

      Try to redeem a warehouse certificate for 1000 units of labor.

      What is a "unit" of labor? What will you get for it? What kind of labor will you get?

      Or sustinable energy, for that matter?

      You would be better off with a warehouse certificate for 1000 books.

      At least they could hand you that over the counter.

      Books would make a fine currency, except they just are not consistent in quality. How do you compare Ayn Rand and Shakespeare?

      It is not precious metals that are not consistent in value, but paper currency. Unfortunately most people on think of value in terms of paper, depreciation notwithstanding.

      There are characteristics of a commodity suitable for use in indirect exchange, or as a currency;

      !. Easily recognized.

      2. Consistent in quality.

      3. Easily divisible.

      4. Non-perishable

      5. Easily portable, and, most important,

      6. Universally recognized as valuable.

      The precious metals beat out the utilitarian metals as media of exchange because they are status symbols and therefore in constant demand.

      Labor and energy, sustainable or not, fail miserably by these criteria. You might check the Wall Street journal of some 30 years ago for ads for a Cambodian gold coin. Whatever happened to the government that issued them, they will still be valuable for the gold content.

      You might also check Andrew Dickson White, Fiat Money Inflation in France, for what happens to a currency that does not meet these criteria. There are other examples as well.

      John Rogers <atholl2003@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
      I believe that gold prices went *down* this week.

      Precious metals as a standard or store of value are an illusion from a past age.

      Indeed, *confidence* is the 'trick'. What we believe in stores value and becomes a useful standard of value and medium of exchange.

      Sustainable currencies of the future will be *backed* by human labour and sustainable energy sources denominated in hours or kilowatt hours.

      This is a whole flock of birds coming home to roost sustainably and we can pretend that *the bush* never happened!

      John Rogers

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: william wendt <wholelephant@ yahoo.com>
      To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
      Sent: Tuesday, 25 March, 2008 11:01:59 PM
      Subject: [cyfranogi] bird in hand currency

      The March 2008 Liberty has an article on the
      government shutting down the Liberty Dollar operation.

      The article did not mention the warehouse receipts
      issued by Liberty Dollar, only the silver and gold
      coins.

      Whatever the government thinks of such a thing, a
      piece of gold or silver will keep its value whatever
      the government does.

      It is a bird in the hand, so to speak, not in the,
      excuse the expression, bush.

      ABC Nightline Monday last week had a segment on the
      financial travails, saying the only distiction between
      dollar bills and pieces of paper is confidence.

      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
      Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
      http://www.yahoo com/r/hs

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    • Tom Wayburn
      John, I think you might profitably look at Howard T. Odum s great paper on emergy analysis. (See http://www.dieoff.org/page232.pdf .) As you may know, on my
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 3, 2008
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        John,



        I think you might profitably look at Howard T. Odum's great paper on emergy
        analysis. (See http://www.dieoff.org/page232.pdf .) As you may know, on my
        website, I provide links to a number of papers that explain energy-based
        economics - differently and, in my opinion, better than Odum does. Also, I
        suggested a way out of the problem created by people undergoing varying
        degrees of preparation (education) to do their work in my paper at
        http://dematerialism.net/cc1.htm .



        Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
        http://dematerialism.net/



        P.S. Whether the energy invested is sustainable or not does not affect the
        value of a good or service. This important difference must be handled by
        consumer choice or force of law or, perhaps, in some other way.





        _____

        From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of John Rogers
        Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:11 AM
        To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] bird in hand currency



        According to David Boyle's Little Book Of Money the lust for gold bankrupted
        the European economy and prices went up eightfold after the Spanish conquest
        of South America. He also claims that there is only enough gold in the world
        to fill a few semi-detached houses. What use is that to inspire confidence
        for the vast portion of humanity who will never have access to gold?

        Not sure how you can recommend books as a currency that everyone would
        accept having said that 'paper currency' is inconsistent in value. Aren't
        books made of paper?

        A 'unit' of labour can be whatever we agree, from a second (I am
        exaggerating to make a point) to a day, a week, a month, whatever we agree
        upon as a universal standard. For the sake of argument let us agree it is
        one hour. Once we have a universal labour 'hour standard' then people can
        negotiate on that basis. If someone claims they spent five years getting a
        professional education and want to bill for 10 hours for one real hour of
        work and someone else is willing to accept it, then they can trade. In
        another system everyone may agree to stick to an equality of time standard
        so that one hour equals one hour. In another system, people may wish to
        break the standard down into 'ten minute' units for 'small change'.

        Some people will give a lot better 'value' in their hour of work than
        someone else. Word soon gets around and reputation for good or bad work is
        established. On the other hand, the 'bad' worker may be very good company,
        tell great stories and the person employing them may be happy to employ them
        again. This is the real world of reputation and negotiation which all
        economic systems have to deal with. The advantage of a time standard is that
        time is a universal commodity not limited in supply like 'things' are.

        Energy is a different case. Before establishing energy as a standard,
        detailed analysis of local energy supply would have to be undertaken to
        assess its viability. I see it working at two levels: first, local currency
        issued to people who demonstrably *decrease* their energy use measured
        against a common standard such as a Co2 'footprint' for instance; second,
        local currency issued to those who generate energy from sustainable sources
        such as solar panels on their roofs or community energy projects such as
        windfarms, biomass etc. The 'standard of value' could be the kilowatt hour.
        All currency issued against this can go into circulation to facilitate local
        trade, community building etc.

        John Rogers

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: william wendt <wholelephant@ <mailto:wholelephant%40yahoo.com>
        yahoo.com>
        To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
        Sent: Friday, 28 March, 2008 4:01:10 PM
        Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] bird in hand currency

        Try to redeem a warehouse certificate for 1000 units of labor.

        What is a "unit" of labor? What will you get for it? What kind of labor will
        you get?

        Or sustinable energy, for that matter?

        You would be better off with a warehouse certificate for 1000 books.

        At least they could hand you that over the counter.

        Books would make a fine currency, except they just are not consistent in
        quality. How do you compare Ayn Rand and Shakespeare?

        It is not precious metals that are not consistent in value, but paper
        currency. Unfortunately most people on think of value in terms of paper,
        depreciation notwithstanding.

        There are characteristics of a commodity suitable for use in indirect
        exchange, or as a currency;

        !. Easily recognized.

        2. Consistent in quality.

        3. Easily divisible.

        4. Non-perishable

        5. Easily portable, and, most important,

        6. Universally recognized as valuable.

        The precious metals beat out the utilitarian metals as media of exchange
        because they are status symbols and therefore in constant demand.

        Labor and energy, sustainable or not, fail miserably by these criteria. You
        might check the Wall Street journal of some 30 years ago for ads for a
        Cambodian gold coin. Whatever happened to the government that issued them,
        they will still be valuable for the gold content.

        You might also check Andrew Dickson White, Fiat Money Inflation in France,
        for what happens to a currency that does not meet these criteria. There are
        other examples as well.

        John Rogers <atholl2003@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
        I believe that gold prices went *down* this week.

        Precious metals as a standard or store of value are an illusion from a past
        age.

        Indeed, *confidence* is the 'trick'. What we believe in stores value and
        becomes a useful standard of value and medium of exchange.

        Sustainable currencies of the future will be *backed* by human labour and
        sustainable energy sources denominated in hours or kilowatt hours.

        This is a whole flock of birds coming home to roost sustainably and we can
        pretend that *the bush* never happened!

        John Rogers

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: william wendt <wholelephant@ yahoo.com>
        To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
        Sent: Tuesday, 25 March, 2008 11:01:59 PM
        Subject: [cyfranogi] bird in hand currency

        The March 2008 Liberty has an article on the
        government shutting down the Liberty Dollar operation.

        The article did not mention the warehouse receipts
        issued by Liberty Dollar, only the silver and gold
        coins.

        Whatever the government thinks of such a thing, a
        piece of gold or silver will keep its value whatever
        the government does.

        It is a bird in the hand, so to speak, not in the,
        excuse the expression, bush.

        ABC Nightline Monday last week had a segment on the
        financial travails, saying the only distiction between
        dollar bills and pieces of paper is confidence.

        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
        Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
        http://www.yahoo com/r/hs

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      • John Waters
        ... Gold is very useful as a protective coating for stronger but more reactive metals and as a conductor. Diamonds are useful for cutting and abrasion. It
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 3, 2008
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          John Rogers wrote:

          > According to David Boyle's Little Book Of Money the lust for gold
          > bankrupted the European economy and prices went up eightfold
          > after the Spanish conquest of South America. He also claims that
          > there is only enough gold in the world to fill a few semi-detached
          > houses. What use is that to inspire confidence for the vast portion
          > of humanity who will never have access to gold?

          Gold is very useful as a protective coating for stronger but more
          reactive metals and as a conductor. Diamonds are useful for cutting and
          abrasion. It seems a shame to waste such useful resources just to
          create an illusion.

          > Not sure how you can recommend books as a currency that
          > everyone would accept having said that 'paper currency' is
          > inconsistent in value. Aren't books made of paper?

          Most books are also a waste of increasingly depleted trees.

          > A 'unit' of labour can be whatever we agree, from a second (I am
          > exaggerating to make a point) to a day, a week, a month,
          > whatever we agree upon as a universal standard. For the sake of
          > argument let us agree it is one hour. Once we have a universal
          > labour 'hour standard' then people can negotiate on that basis. If
          > someone claims they spent five years getting a professional
          > education and want to bill for 10 hours for one real hour of work
          > and someone else is willing to accept it, then they can trade. In
          > another system everyone may agree to stick to an equality of
          > time standard so that one hour equals one hour. In another
          > system, people may wish to break the standard down into 'ten
          > minute' units for 'small change'.
          >
          > Some people will give a lot better 'value' in their hour of work than
          > someone else. Word soon gets around and reputation for good or
          > bad work is established. On the other hand, the 'bad' worker may
          > be very good company, tell great stories and the person employing
          > them may be happy to employ them again. This is the real world of
          > reputation and negotiation which all economic systems have to deal
          > with.

          Furthermore, the "bad" worker may be doing something useful (or at worst
          harmless) not particularly well, while the "good" worker may be doing
          something environmentally or socially damaging (or at best pointless)
          very well.

          Conventional national currencies don't take any account of external
          costs. Neither do time currencies, of course, so in this sense they are
          no better or worse. It may be that the only objective comparison that
          can be made between theses two currency types is in their social
          benefits, in which case time currencies win resoundingly.

          > The advantage of a time standard is that time is a universal
          > commodity not limited in supply like 'things' are.

          It's also more egalitarian in that we (mostly) start off with a similar
          allocation.

          > Energy is a different case. Before establishing energy as a standard,
          > detailed analysis of local energy supply would have to be undertaken
          > to assess its viability. I see it working at two levels: first, local
          currency
          > issued to people who demonstrably *decrease* their energy use
          > measured against a common standard such as a Co2 'footprint' for
          > instance;

          See Richard Douthwaite's "Ecology of Money" (Schumacher, 1999)

          > second, local currency issued to those who generate energy from
          > sustainable sources such as solar panels on their roofs or community
          > energy projects such as windfarms, biomass etc. The 'standard of value'
          > could be the kilowatt hour. All currency issued against this can go into
          > circulation to facilitate local trade, community building etc.

          See Shann Turbull's "Creating a Community Currency" (Chapter 21 of Ward
          Morehouse (ed) "Building Sustainable Communities" (TOES, 1989 & 1997)

          John :)


          >
          > John Rogers
          >
          > ----- Original Message ----
          > From: william wendt <wholelephant@...>
          > To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, 28 March, 2008 4:01:10 PM
          > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] bird in hand currency
          >
          > Try to redeem a warehouse certificate for 1000 units of labor.
          >
          > What is a "unit" of labor? What will you get for it? What kind of
          labor will you get?
          >
          > Or sustinable energy, for that matter?
          >
          > You would be better off with a warehouse certificate for 1000 books.
          >
          > At least they could hand you that over the counter.
          >
          > Books would make a fine currency, except they just are not consistent
          in quality. How do you compare Ayn Rand and Shakespeare?
          >
          > It is not precious metals that are not consistent in value, but paper
          currency. Unfortunately most people on think of value in terms of paper,
          depreciation notwithstanding.
          >
          > There are characteristics of a commodity suitable for use in indirect
          exchange, or as a currency;
          >
          > !. Easily recognized.
          >
          > 2. Consistent in quality.
          >
          > 3. Easily divisible.
          >
          > 4. Non-perishable
          >
          > 5. Easily portable, and, most important,
          >
          > 6. Universally recognized as valuable.
          >
          > The precious metals beat out the utilitarian metals as media of
          exchange because they are status symbols and therefore in constant demand.
          >
          > Labor and energy, sustainable or not, fail miserably by these
          criteria. You might check the Wall Street journal of some 30 years ago
          for ads for a Cambodian gold coin. Whatever happened to the government
          that issued them, they will still be valuable for the gold content.
          >
          > You might also check Andrew Dickson White, Fiat Money Inflation in
          France, for what happens to a currency that does not meet these
          criteria. There are other examples as well.
          >
          > John Rogers <atholl2003@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
          > I believe that gold prices went *down* this week.
          >
          > Precious metals as a standard or store of value are an illusion from a
          past age.
          >
          > Indeed, *confidence* is the 'trick'. What we believe in stores value
          and becomes a useful standard of value and medium of exchange.
          >
          > Sustainable currencies of the future will be *backed* by human labour
          and sustainable energy sources denominated in hours or kilowatt hours.
          >
          > This is a whole flock of birds coming home to roost sustainably and we
          can pretend that *the bush* never happened!
          >
          > John Rogers
          >
          > ----- Original Message ----
          > From: william wendt <wholelephant@ yahoo.com>
          > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, 25 March, 2008 11:01:59 PM
          > Subject: [cyfranogi] bird in hand currency
          >
          > The March 2008 Liberty has an article on the
          > government shutting down the Liberty Dollar operation.
          >
          > The article did not mention the warehouse receipts
          > issued by Liberty Dollar, only the silver and gold
          > coins.
          >
          > Whatever the government thinks of such a thing, a
          > piece of gold or silver will keep its value whatever
          > the government does.
          >
          > It is a bird in the hand, so to speak, not in the,
          > excuse the expression, bush.
          >
          > ABC Nightline Monday last week had a segment on the
          > financial travails, saying the only distiction between
          > dollar bills and pieces of paper is confidence.
          >
          > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
          > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
          > http://www.yahoo com/r/hs
          >
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          > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
          > Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
          > More Ways to Keep in Touch. http://uk.docs yahoo.com/ nowyoucan. html
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > ------------ --------- --------- ---
          > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > __________________________________________________________
          > Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
          > A Smarter Inbox http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >



          --

          ============================================================
          Any original content in this message is Copyright (c) [year
          sent] by John Waters (john at esrad.org.uk | +44 686 413639)
          and may only be redistributed under the terms of the GFDL
          (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html). NOT Public Domain.
          ============================================================
        • twayburn@wt.net
          John, Interestingly, it was at TOES, 1990, that I first heard H. T. Odum speak and learned about eMergy. When I heard that, I said to myself, That s a good
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 4, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            John,

            Interestingly, it was at TOES, 1990, that I first heard H. T. Odum speak
            and learned about eMergy. When I heard that, I said to myself, "That's a
            good idea - a VERY good idea".

            Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
            http://dematerialism.net/

            > John Rogers wrote:
            >
            >> According to David Boyle's Little Book Of Money the lust for gold
            >> bankrupted the European economy and prices went up eightfold
            >> after the Spanish conquest of South America. He also claims that
            >> there is only enough gold in the world to fill a few semi-detached
            >> houses. What use is that to inspire confidence for the vast portion
            >> of humanity who will never have access to gold?
            >
            > Gold is very useful as a protective coating for stronger but more
            > reactive metals and as a conductor. Diamonds are useful for cutting and
            > abrasion. It seems a shame to waste such useful resources just to
            > create an illusion.
            >
            >> Not sure how you can recommend books as a currency that
            >> everyone would accept having said that 'paper currency' is
            >> inconsistent in value. Aren't books made of paper?
            >
            > Most books are also a waste of increasingly depleted trees.
            >
            >> A 'unit' of labour can be whatever we agree, from a second (I am
            >> exaggerating to make a point) to a day, a week, a month,
            >> whatever we agree upon as a universal standard. For the sake of
            >> argument let us agree it is one hour. Once we have a universal
            >> labour 'hour standard' then people can negotiate on that basis. If
            >> someone claims they spent five years getting a professional
            >> education and want to bill for 10 hours for one real hour of work
            >> and someone else is willing to accept it, then they can trade. In
            >> another system everyone may agree to stick to an equality of
            >> time standard so that one hour equals one hour. In another
            >> system, people may wish to break the standard down into 'ten
            >> minute' units for 'small change'.
            >>
            >> Some people will give a lot better 'value' in their hour of work than
            >> someone else. Word soon gets around and reputation for good or
            >> bad work is established. On the other hand, the 'bad' worker may
            >> be very good company, tell great stories and the person employing
            >> them may be happy to employ them again. This is the real world of
            >> reputation and negotiation which all economic systems have to deal
            >> with.
            >
            > Furthermore, the "bad" worker may be doing something useful (or at worst
            > harmless) not particularly well, while the "good" worker may be doing
            > something environmentally or socially damaging (or at best pointless)
            > very well.
            >
            > Conventional national currencies don't take any account of external
            > costs. Neither do time currencies, of course, so in this sense they are
            > no better or worse. It may be that the only objective comparison that
            > can be made between theses two currency types is in their social
            > benefits, in which case time currencies win resoundingly.
            >
            >> The advantage of a time standard is that time is a universal
            >> commodity not limited in supply like 'things' are.
            >
            > It's also more egalitarian in that we (mostly) start off with a similar
            > allocation.
            >
            >> Energy is a different case. Before establishing energy as a standard,
            >> detailed analysis of local energy supply would have to be undertaken
            >> to assess its viability. I see it working at two levels: first, local
            > currency
            >> issued to people who demonstrably *decrease* their energy use
            >> measured against a common standard such as a Co2 'footprint' for
            >> instance;
            >
            > See Richard Douthwaite's "Ecology of Money" (Schumacher, 1999)
            >
            >> second, local currency issued to those who generate energy from
            >> sustainable sources such as solar panels on their roofs or community
            >> energy projects such as windfarms, biomass etc. The 'standard of value'
            >> could be the kilowatt hour. All currency issued against this can go into
            >> circulation to facilitate local trade, community building etc.
            >
            > See Shann Turbull's "Creating a Community Currency" (Chapter 21 of Ward
            > Morehouse (ed) "Building Sustainable Communities" (TOES, 1989 & 1997)
            >
            > John :)
            >
            >
            >>
            >> John Rogers
            >>
            >> ----- Original Message ----
            >> From: william wendt <wholelephant@...>
            >> To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
            >> Sent: Friday, 28 March, 2008 4:01:10 PM
            >> Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] bird in hand currency
            >>
            >> Try to redeem a warehouse certificate for 1000 units of labor.
            >>
            >> What is a "unit" of labor? What will you get for it? What kind of
            > labor will you get?
            >>
            >> Or sustinable energy, for that matter?
            >>
            >> You would be better off with a warehouse certificate for 1000 books.
            >>
            >> At least they could hand you that over the counter.
            >>
            >> Books would make a fine currency, except they just are not consistent
            > in quality. How do you compare Ayn Rand and Shakespeare?
            >>
            >> It is not precious metals that are not consistent in value, but paper
            > currency. Unfortunately most people on think of value in terms of paper,
            > depreciation notwithstanding.
            >>
            >> There are characteristics of a commodity suitable for use in indirect
            > exchange, or as a currency;
            >>
            >> !. Easily recognized.
            >>
            >> 2. Consistent in quality.
            >>
            >> 3. Easily divisible.
            >>
            >> 4. Non-perishable
            >>
            >> 5. Easily portable, and, most important,
            >>
            >> 6. Universally recognized as valuable.
            >>
            >> The precious metals beat out the utilitarian metals as media of
            > exchange because they are status symbols and therefore in constant demand.
            >>
            >> Labor and energy, sustainable or not, fail miserably by these
            > criteria. You might check the Wall Street journal of some 30 years ago
            > for ads for a Cambodian gold coin. Whatever happened to the government
            > that issued them, they will still be valuable for the gold content.
            >>
            >> You might also check Andrew Dickson White, Fiat Money Inflation in
            > France, for what happens to a currency that does not meet these
            > criteria. There are other examples as well.
            >>
            >> John Rogers <atholl2003@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
            >> I believe that gold prices went *down* this week.
            >>
            >> Precious metals as a standard or store of value are an illusion from a
            > past age.
            >>
            >> Indeed, *confidence* is the 'trick'. What we believe in stores value
            > and becomes a useful standard of value and medium of exchange.
            >>
            >> Sustainable currencies of the future will be *backed* by human labour
            > and sustainable energy sources denominated in hours or kilowatt hours.
            >>
            >> This is a whole flock of birds coming home to roost sustainably and we
            > can pretend that *the bush* never happened!
            >>
            >> John Rogers
            >>
            >> ----- Original Message ----
            >> From: william wendt <wholelephant@ yahoo.com>
            >> To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
            >> Sent: Tuesday, 25 March, 2008 11:01:59 PM
            >> Subject: [cyfranogi] bird in hand currency
            >>
            >> The March 2008 Liberty has an article on the
            >> government shutting down the Liberty Dollar operation.
            >>
            >> The article did not mention the warehouse receipts
            >> issued by Liberty Dollar, only the silver and gold
            >> coins.
            >>
            >> Whatever the government thinks of such a thing, a
            >> piece of gold or silver will keep its value whatever
            >> the government does.
            >>
            >> It is a bird in the hand, so to speak, not in the,
            >> excuse the expression, bush.
            >>
            >> ABC Nightline Monday last week had a segment on the
            >> financial travails, saying the only distiction between
            >> dollar bills and pieces of paper is confidence.
            >>
            >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
            >> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
            >> http://www.yahoo com/r/hs
            >>
            >> <!--
            >>
            >> #ygrp-mkp{
            >> border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font- family:Arial; margin:14px 0px;padding:
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            >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
            >> More Ways to Keep in Touch. http://uk.docs yahoo.com/ nowyoucan. html
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            >> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
            >>
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            >> __________________________________________________________
            >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
            >> A Smarter Inbox http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
            >>
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            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            >
            > ============================================================
            > Any original content in this message is Copyright (c) [year
            > sent] by John Waters (john at esrad.org.uk | +44 686 413639)
            > and may only be redistributed under the terms of the GFDL
            > (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html). NOT Public Domain.
            > ============================================================
            >
            >
            >
          • william wendt
            Unlearning is more difficult than learning, they say. There is quite a bit to be unlearned in this string. There is also a business adage about falling in love
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 7, 2008
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              Unlearning is more difficult than learning, they say. There is quite a bit to be unlearned in this string.

              There is also a business adage about falling in love with the inventory. In other words, the entrepreneur is more absorbed with his own tastes than the customers'.

              The problem here is not necessarily the utility or virtue of some commodity for purposes other than indirect exchange. Other things may well be more useful than the precious metals for purposes other than indirect exchange. Indeed they are. The actual usefulness of the precious metals is rather limited, actually, compared to all the other commodities in the world.

              And the precious metals can be sought, and, indeed, excessively sought, as in the Spanish empire, as wealth in themselves. Of course you cannot eat gold. It is a status symbol, which leads to a never statiated demand for it, but it can be sought and accumulated for the wrong reasons, indeed, to the enervation of a genuinely productive economy. All the excesses of the Spanish empire, however, did not satiate the demand for gold elsewhere.

              Indirect exchange is not well suited to the human emotional and psychological make-up. This evolved in hunter-gatherer bands of about two dozen, which could be ruled by group fiat and which could take individual motivation for granted.

              Einstein said the bomb changed everything but the way we think. indeed. We suppopsed moderns are still trying to run far-flung societies by group fiat, generally known as "political will," and we still take individual motivation for grnted. Witness the standard soap opera refrain, "You didn't really intend to...." on TV or in real life.

              The problem of indirect exchange is at bottom one of human motivation. How do you motivate people quite beyond the scope of personal contact? The most marketable commodity is the way to do that.

              We supposed moderns, however, still in the grip of primordial psychology, have become accustomed to media of indirect exchange that do not fully meet the requirements for such a thing. And a few of us "fall in love with the inventory" in proposing alternatives.

              Still, for all the short-term fluctuations in the perceived value of precious metals, still, they do hold their value over the long run. Short term losses in the commodity markets notwithstanding, the precious metals have never become completely worthless, as a lot of paper ones have

              The media of exchange perform a function in the economic organism roughly comparable to the circulatory, nervous, and hormonal systems in a biological organism. They generally do it so well they are no more noticeable than air pressure. It is not imppossible they can be so taken for granted, however, that their fundamental nature is obscured and unworty ones fail altogether.



              twayburn@... wrote:
              John,

              Interestingly, it was at TOES, 1990, that I first heard H. T. Odum speak
              and learned about eMergy. When I heard that, I said to myself, "That's a
              good idea - a VERY good idea".

              Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
              http://dematerialism.net/

              > John Rogers wrote:
              >
              >> According to David Boyle's Little Book Of Money the lust for gold
              >> bankrupted the European economy and prices went up eightfold
              >> after the Spanish conquest of South America. He also claims that
              >> there is only enough gold in the world to fill a few semi-detached
              >> houses. What use is that to inspire confidence for the vast portion
              >> of humanity who will never have access to gold?
              >
              > Gold is very useful as a protective coating for stronger but more
              > reactive metals and as a conductor. Diamonds are useful for cutting and
              > abrasion. It seems a shame to waste such useful resources just to
              > create an illusion.
              >
              >> Not sure how you can recommend books as a currency that
              >> everyone would accept having said that 'paper currency' is
              >> inconsistent in value. Aren't books made of paper?
              >
              > Most books are also a waste of increasingly depleted trees.
              >
              >> A 'unit' of labour can be whatever we agree, from a second (I am
              >> exaggerating to make a point) to a day, a week, a month,
              >> whatever we agree upon as a universal standard. For the sake of
              >> argument let us agree it is one hour. Once we have a universal
              >> labour 'hour standard' then people can negotiate on that basis. If
              >> someone claims they spent five years getting a professional
              >> education and want to bill for 10 hours for one real hour of work
              >> and someone else is willing to accept it, then they can trade. In
              >> another system everyone may agree to stick to an equality of
              >> time standard so that one hour equals one hour. In another
              >> system, people may wish to break the standard down into 'ten
              >> minute' units for 'small change'.
              >>
              >> Some people will give a lot better 'value' in their hour of work than
              >> someone else. Word soon gets around and reputation for good or
              >> bad work is established. On the other hand, the 'bad' worker may
              >> be very good company, tell great stories and the person employing
              >> them may be happy to employ them again. This is the real world of
              >> reputation and negotiation which all economic systems have to deal
              >> with.
              >
              > Furthermore, the "bad" worker may be doing something useful (or at worst
              > harmless) not particularly well, while the "good" worker may be doing
              > something environmentally or socially damaging (or at best pointless)
              > very well.
              >
              > Conventional national currencies don't take any account of external
              > costs. Neither do time currencies, of course, so in this sense they are
              > no better or worse. It may be that the only objective comparison that
              > can be made between theses two currency types is in their social
              > benefits, in which case time currencies win resoundingly.
              >
              >> The advantage of a time standard is that time is a universal
              >> commodity not limited in supply like 'things' are.
              >
              > It's also more egalitarian in that we (mostly) start off with a similar
              > allocation.
              >
              >> Energy is a different case. Before establishing energy as a standard,
              >> detailed analysis of local energy supply would have to be undertaken
              >> to assess its viability. I see it working at two levels: first, local
              > currency
              >> issued to people who demonstrably *decrease* their energy use
              >> measured against a common standard such as a Co2 'footprint' for
              >> instance;
              >
              > See Richard Douthwaite's "Ecology of Money" (Schumacher, 1999)
              >
              >> second, local currency issued to those who generate energy from
              >> sustainable sources such as solar panels on their roofs or community
              >> energy projects such as windfarms, biomass etc. The 'standard of value'
              >> could be the kilowatt hour. All currency issued against this can go into
              >> circulation to facilitate local trade, community building etc.
              >
              > See Shann Turbull's "Creating a Community Currency" (Chapter 21 of Ward
              > Morehouse (ed) "Building Sustainable Communities" (TOES, 1989 & 1997)
              >
              > John :)
              >
              >
              >>
              >> John Rogers
              >>
              >> ----- Original Message ----
              >> From: william wendt <wholelephant@...>
              >> To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
              >> Sent: Friday, 28 March, 2008 4:01:10 PM
              >> Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] bird in hand currency
              >>
              >> Try to redeem a warehouse certificate for 1000 units of labor.
              >>
              >> What is a "unit" of labor? What will you get for it? What kind of
              > labor will you get?
              >>
              >> Or sustinable energy, for that matter?
              >>
              >> You would be better off with a warehouse certificate for 1000 books.
              >>
              >> At least they could hand you that over the counter.
              >>
              >> Books would make a fine currency, except they just are not consistent
              > in quality. How do you compare Ayn Rand and Shakespeare?
              >>
              >> It is not precious metals that are not consistent in value, but paper
              > currency. Unfortunately most people on think of value in terms of paper,
              > depreciation notwithstanding.
              >>
              >> There are characteristics of a commodity suitable for use in indirect
              > exchange, or as a currency;
              >>
              >> !. Easily recognized.
              >>
              >> 2. Consistent in quality.
              >>
              >> 3. Easily divisible.
              >>
              >> 4. Non-perishable
              >>
              >> 5. Easily portable, and, most important,
              >>
              >> 6. Universally recognized as valuable.
              >>
              >> The precious metals beat out the utilitarian metals as media of
              > exchange because they are status symbols and therefore in constant demand.
              >>
              >> Labor and energy, sustainable or not, fail miserably by these
              > criteria. You might check the Wall Street journal of some 30 years ago
              > for ads for a Cambodian gold coin. Whatever happened to the government
              > that issued them, they will still be valuable for the gold content.
              >>
              >> You might also check Andrew Dickson White, Fiat Money Inflation in
              > France, for what happens to a currency that does not meet these
              > criteria. There are other examples as well.
              >>
              >> John Rogers <atholl2003@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
              >> I believe that gold prices went *down* this week.
              >>
              >> Precious metals as a standard or store of value are an illusion from a
              > past age.
              >>
              >> Indeed, *confidence* is the 'trick'. What we believe in stores value
              > and becomes a useful standard of value and medium of exchange.
              >>
              >> Sustainable currencies of the future will be *backed* by human labour
              > and sustainable energy sources denominated in hours or kilowatt hours.
              >>
              >> This is a whole flock of birds coming home to roost sustainably and we
              > can pretend that *the bush* never happened!
              >>
              >> John Rogers
              >>
              >> ----- Original Message ----
              >> From: william wendt <wholelephant@ yahoo.com>
              >> To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
              >> Sent: Tuesday, 25 March, 2008 11:01:59 PM
              >> Subject: [cyfranogi] bird in hand currency
              >>
              >> The March 2008 Liberty has an article on the
              >> government shutting down the Liberty Dollar operation.
              >>
              >> The article did not mention the warehouse receipts
              >> issued by Liberty Dollar, only the silver and gold
              >> coins.
              >>
              >> Whatever the government thinks of such a thing, a
              >> piece of gold or silver will keep its value whatever
              >> the government does.
              >>
              >> It is a bird in the hand, so to speak, not in the,
              >> excuse the expression, bush.
              >>
              >> ABC Nightline Monday last week had a segment on the
              >> financial travails, saying the only distiction between
              >> dollar bills and pieces of paper is confidence.
              >>
              >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
              >> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
              >> http://www.yahoo com/r/hs
              >>
              >> <!--
              >>
              >> #ygrp-mkp{
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              >> -->
              >>
              >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
              >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
              >> More Ways to Keep in Touch. http://uk.docs yahoo.com/ nowyoucan. html
              >>
              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>
              >> ------------ --------- --------- ---
              >> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
              >>
              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>
              >> __________________________________________________________
              >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
              >> A Smarter Inbox http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
              >>
              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              > --
              >
              > ============================================================
              > Any original content in this message is Copyright (c) [year
              > sent] by John Waters (john at esrad.org.uk | +44 686 413639)
              > and may only be redistributed under the terms of the GFDL
              > (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html). NOT Public Domain.
              > ============================================================
              >
              >
              >






              ---------------------------------
              You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tom Wayburn
              Hello William, I am not sure what you think needs to be unlearned in this thread; however, every monetary system that is not based upon immutable physical law
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 8, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello William,



                I am not sure what you think needs to be unlearned in this thread; however,
                every monetary system that is not based upon immutable physical law fails -
                eventually. For example, the bizarre currency developments in every
                capitalist market economy must eventually run into the immovable barrier
                known as limits to growth. Certainly Malthus and The Club of Rome were
                correct in all of the essentials. I have written extensively on this theme
                and I have no idea where to begin with you. I am under the impression that
                your education is in law rather than science, which accounts for many of
                your ideas. Law like classical economics is a man-made construct based upon
                invalid assumptions. Not that there should not be a few good laws, but that
                those few should never need to be changed in any number of centuries - as
                opposed to daily changes in the laws when Congress is in session. A
                rational community would not need a legislature. But, I put most of this in
                Chapter 3 of http://dematerialism.net/POS.html .



                Tom



                P.S. Are you aware of the intrinsic motivational school of human behavior?
                See http://www.psych.rochester.edu/SDT/ .



                _____

                From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of william wendt
                Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 11:34 AM
                To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                Cc: twayburn@...
                Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] bird in hand currency



                Unlearning is more difficult than learning, they say. There is quite a bit
                to be unlearned in this string.

                There is also a business adage about falling in love with the inventory. In
                other words, the entrepreneur is more absorbed with his own tastes than the
                customers'.

                The problem here is not necessarily the utility or virtue of some commodity
                for purposes other than indirect exchange. Other things may well be more
                useful than the precious metals for purposes other than indirect exchange.
                Indeed they are. The actual usefulness of the precious metals is rather
                limited, actually, compared to all the other commodities in the world.

                And the precious metals can be sought, and, indeed, excessively sought, as
                in the Spanish empire, as wealth in themselves. Of course you cannot eat
                gold. It is a status symbol, which leads to a never statiated demand for it,
                but it can be sought and accumulated for the wrong reasons, indeed, to the
                enervation of a genuinely productive economy. All the excesses of the
                Spanish empire, however, did not satiate the demand for gold elsewhere.

                Indirect exchange is not well suited to the human emotional and
                psychological make-up. This evolved in hunter-gatherer bands of about two
                dozen, which could be ruled by group fiat and which could take individual
                motivation for granted.

                Einstein said the bomb changed everything but the way we think. indeed. We
                suppopsed moderns are still trying to run far-flung societies by group fiat,
                generally known as "political will," and we still take individual motivation
                for grnted. Witness the standard soap opera refrain, "You didn't really
                intend to...." on TV or in real life.

                The problem of indirect exchange is at bottom one of human motivation. How
                do you motivate people quite beyond the scope of personal contact? The most
                marketable commodity is the way to do that.

                We supposed moderns, however, still in the grip of primordial psychology,
                have become accustomed to media of indirect exchange that do not fully meet
                the requirements for such a thing. And a few of us "fall in love with the
                inventory" in proposing alternatives.

                Still, for all the short-term fluctuations in the perceived value of
                precious metals, still, they do hold their value over the long run. Short
                term losses in the commodity markets notwithstanding, the precious metals
                have never become completely worthless, as a lot of paper ones have

                The media of exchange perform a function in the economic organism roughly
                comparable to the circulatory, nervous, and hormonal systems in a biological
                organism. They generally do it so well they are no more noticeable than air
                pressure. It is not imppossible they can be so taken for granted, however,
                that their fundamental nature is obscured and unworty ones fail altogether.



                twayburn@wt. <mailto:twayburn%40wt.net> net wrote:
                John,

                Interestingly, it was at TOES, 1990, that I first heard H. T. Odum speak
                and learned about eMergy. When I heard that, I said to myself, "That's a
                good idea - a VERY good idea".

                Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/

                > John Rogers wrote:
                >
                >> According to David Boyle's Little Book Of Money the lust for gold
                >> bankrupted the European economy and prices went up eightfold
                >> after the Spanish conquest of South America. He also claims that
                >> there is only enough gold in the world to fill a few semi-detached
                >> houses. What use is that to inspire confidence for the vast portion
                >> of humanity who will never have access to gold?
                >
                > Gold is very useful as a protective coating for stronger but more
                > reactive metals and as a conductor. Diamonds are useful for cutting and
                > abrasion. It seems a shame to waste such useful resources just to
                > create an illusion.
                >
                >> Not sure how you can recommend books as a currency that
                >> everyone would accept having said that 'paper currency' is
                >> inconsistent in value. Aren't books made of paper?
                >
                > Most books are also a waste of increasingly depleted trees.
                >
                >> A 'unit' of labour can be whatever we agree, from a second (I am
                >> exaggerating to make a point) to a day, a week, a month,
                >> whatever we agree upon as a universal standard. For the sake of
                >> argument let us agree it is one hour. Once we have a universal
                >> labour 'hour standard' then people can negotiate on that basis. If
                >> someone claims they spent five years getting a professional
                >> education and want to bill for 10 hours for one real hour of work
                >> and someone else is willing to accept it, then they can trade. In
                >> another system everyone may agree to stick to an equality of
                >> time standard so that one hour equals one hour. In another
                >> system, people may wish to break the standard down into 'ten
                >> minute' units for 'small change'.
                >>
                >> Some people will give a lot better 'value' in their hour of work than
                >> someone else. Word soon gets around and reputation for good or
                >> bad work is established. On the other hand, the 'bad' worker may
                >> be very good company, tell great stories and the person employing
                >> them may be happy to employ them again. This is the real world of
                >> reputation and negotiation which all economic systems have to deal
                >> with.
                >
                > Furthermore, the "bad" worker may be doing something useful (or at worst
                > harmless) not particularly well, while the "good" worker may be doing
                > something environmentally or socially damaging (or at best pointless)
                > very well.
                >
                > Conventional national currencies don't take any account of external
                > costs. Neither do time currencies, of course, so in this sense they are
                > no better or worse. It may be that the only objective comparison that
                > can be made between theses two currency types is in their social
                > benefits, in which case time currencies win resoundingly.
                >
                >> The advantage of a time standard is that time is a universal
                >> commodity not limited in supply like 'things' are.
                >
                > It's also more egalitarian in that we (mostly) start off with a similar
                > allocation.
                >
                >> Energy is a different case. Before establishing energy as a standard,
                >> detailed analysis of local energy supply would have to be undertaken
                >> to assess its viability. I see it working at two levels: first, local
                > currency
                >> issued to people who demonstrably *decrease* their energy use
                >> measured against a common standard such as a Co2 'footprint' for
                >> instance;
                >
                > See Richard Douthwaite's "Ecology of Money" (Schumacher, 1999)
                >
                >> second, local currency issued to those who generate energy from
                >> sustainable sources such as solar panels on their roofs or community
                >> energy projects such as windfarms, biomass etc. The 'standard of value'
                >> could be the kilowatt hour. All currency issued against this can go into
                >> circulation to facilitate local trade, community building etc.
                >
                > See Shann Turbull's "Creating a Community Currency" (Chapter 21 of Ward
                > Morehouse (ed) "Building Sustainable Communities" (TOES, 1989 & 1997)
                >
                > John :)
                >
                >
                >>
                >> John Rogers
                >>
                >> ----- Original Message ----
                >> From: william wendt <wholelephant@ <mailto:wholelephant%40yahoo.com>
                yahoo.com>
                >> To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                >> Sent: Friday, 28 March, 2008 4:01:10 PM
                >> Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] bird in hand currency
                >>
                >> Try to redeem a warehouse certificate for 1000 units of labor.
                >>
                >> What is a "unit" of labor? What will you get for it? What kind of
                > labor will you get?
                >>
                >> Or sustinable energy, for that matter?
                >>
                >> You would be better off with a warehouse certificate for 1000 books.
                >>
                >> At least they could hand you that over the counter.
                >>
                >> Books would make a fine currency, except they just are not consistent
                > in quality. How do you compare Ayn Rand and Shakespeare?
                >>
                >> It is not precious metals that are not consistent in value, but paper
                > currency. Unfortunately most people on think of value in terms of paper,
                > depreciation notwithstanding.
                >>
                >> There are characteristics of a commodity suitable for use in indirect
                > exchange, or as a currency;
                >>
                >> !. Easily recognized.
                >>
                >> 2. Consistent in quality.
                >>
                >> 3. Easily divisible.
                >>
                >> 4. Non-perishable
                >>
                >> 5. Easily portable, and, most important,
                >>
                >> 6. Universally recognized as valuable.
                >>
                >> The precious metals beat out the utilitarian metals as media of
                > exchange because they are status symbols and therefore in constant demand.
                >>
                >> Labor and energy, sustainable or not, fail miserably by these
                > criteria. You might check the Wall Street journal of some 30 years ago
                > for ads for a Cambodian gold coin. Whatever happened to the government
                > that issued them, they will still be valuable for the gold content.
                >>
                >> You might also check Andrew Dickson White, Fiat Money Inflation in
                > France, for what happens to a currency that does not meet these
                > criteria. There are other examples as well.
                >>
                >> John Rogers <atholl2003@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
                >> I believe that gold prices went *down* this week.
                >>
                >> Precious metals as a standard or store of value are an illusion from a
                > past age.
                >>
                >> Indeed, *confidence* is the 'trick'. What we believe in stores value
                > and becomes a useful standard of value and medium of exchange.
                >>
                >> Sustainable currencies of the future will be *backed* by human labour
                > and sustainable energy sources denominated in hours or kilowatt hours.
                >>
                >> This is a whole flock of birds coming home to roost sustainably and we
                > can pretend that *the bush* never happened!
                >>
                >> John Rogers
                >>
                >> ----- Original Message ----
                >> From: william wendt <wholelephant@ yahoo.com>
                >> To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                >> Sent: Tuesday, 25 March, 2008 11:01:59 PM
                >> Subject: [cyfranogi] bird in hand currency
                >>
                >> The March 2008 Liberty has an article on the
                >> government shutting down the Liberty Dollar operation.
                >>
                >> The article did not mention the warehouse receipts
                >> issued by Liberty Dollar, only the silver and gold
                >> coins.
                >>
                >> Whatever the government thinks of such a thing, a
                >> piece of gold or silver will keep its value whatever
                >> the government does.
                >>
                >> It is a bird in the hand, so to speak, not in the,
                >> excuse the expression, bush.
                >>
                >> ABC Nightline Monday last week had a segment on the
                >> financial travails, saying the only distiction between
                >> dollar bills and pieces of paper is confidence.
                >>
                >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                >> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                >> http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs
                >>
                >> <!--
                >>
                >> #ygrp-mkp{
                >> border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font- family:Arial; margin:14px 0px;padding:
                > 0px 14px;}
                >> #ygrp-mkp hr{
                >> border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}
                >> #ygrp-mkp #hd{
                >> color:#628c2a; font-size: 85%;font- weight:bold; line-height:
                > 122%;margin: 10px 0px;}
                >> #ygrp-mkp #ads{
                >> margin-bottom: 10px;}
                >> #ygrp-mkp .ad{
                >> padding:0 0;}
                >> #ygrp-mkp .ad a{
                >> color:#0000ff; text-decoration: none;}
                >> -->
                >>
                >> <!--
                >>
                >> #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{
                >> font-family: Arial;}
                >> #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{
                >> margin:10px 0px;font-weight: bold;font- size:78%; line-height: 122%;}
                >> #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
                >> margin-bottom: 10px;padding: 0 0;}
                >> -->
                >>
                >> <!--
                >>
                >> #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial, helvetica, clean,
                > sans-serif;}
                >> #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit; font:100% ;}
                >> #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean,
                > sans-serif;}
                >> #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}
                >> #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height: 1.22em;}
                >> #ygrp-text{
                >> font-family: Georgia;
                >> }
                >> #ygrp-text p{
                >> margin:0 0 1em 0;}
                >> #ygrp-tpmsgs{
                >> font-family: Arial;
                >> clear:both;}
                >> #ygrp-vitnav{
                >> padding-top: 10px;font- family:Verdana; font-size: 77%;margin: 0;}
                >> #ygrp-vitnav a{
                >> padding:0 1px;}
                >> #ygrp-actbar{
                >> clear:both;margin: 25px 0;white-space: nowrap;color: #666;text-
                > align:right; }
                >> #ygrp-actbar .left{
                >> float:left;white- space:nowrap; }
                >> .bld{font-weight: bold;}
                >> #ygrp-grft{
                >> font-family: Verdana;font- size:77%; padding:15px 0;}
                >> #ygrp-ft{
                >> font-family: verdana;font- size:77%; border-top: 1px solid #666;
                >> padding:5px 0;
                >> }
                >> #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
                >> padding-bottom: 10px;}
                >>
                >> #ygrp-reco {
                >> margin-bottom: 20px;padding: 0px;}
                >> #ygrp-reco #reco-head {
                >> font-weight: bold;color: #ff7900;}
                >>
                >> #reco-grpname{
                >> font-weight: bold;margin- top:10px; }
                >> #reco-category{
                >> font-size:77% ;}
                >> #reco-desc{
                >> font-size:77% ;}
                >>
                >> #ygrp-vital{
                >> background-color: #e0ecee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}
                >> #ygrp-vital #vithd{
                >> font-size:77% ;font-family: Verdana;font- weight:bold; color:#333;
                > text-transform: uppercase; }
                >> #ygrp-vital ul{
                >> padding:0;margin: 2px 0;}
                >> #ygrp-vital ul li{
                >> list-style-type: none;clear: both;border: 1px solid #e0ecee;
                >> }
                >> #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
                >> font-weight: bold;color: #ff7900;float: right;width: 2em;text-
                > align:right; padding-right: .5em;}
                >> #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
                >> font-weight: bold;}
                >> #ygrp-vital a{
                >> text-decoration: none;}
                >>
                >> #ygrp-vital a:hover{
                >> text-decoration: underline; }
                >>
                >> #ygrp-sponsor #hd{
                >> color:#999;font- size:77%; }
                >> #ygrp-sponsor #ov{
                >> padding:6px 13px;background- color:#e0ecee; margin-bottom: 20px;}
                >> #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
                >> padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0; }
                >> #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
                >> list-style-type: square;padding: 6px 0;font-size: 77%;}
                >> #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
                >> text-decoration: none;font- size:130% ;}
                >> #ygrp-sponsor #nc{
                >> background-color: #eee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:0 8px;}
                >> #ygrp-sponsor .ad{
                >> padding:8px 0;}
                >> #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
                >> font-family: Arial;font- weight:bold; color:#628c2a; font-size:
                > 100%;line- height:122% ;}
                >> #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
                >> text-decoration: none;}
                >> #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
                >> text-decoration: underline; }
                >> #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
                >> margin:0;}
                >> o{font-size: 0;}
                >> .MsoNormal{
                >> margin:0 0 0 0;}
                >> #ygrp-text tt{
                >> font-size:120% ;}
                >> blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
                >> .replbq{margin: 4;}
                >> -->
                >>
                >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
                >> More Ways to Keep in Touch. http://uk.docs. yahoo.com/ nowyoucan. html
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >> ------------ --------- --------- ---
                >> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >> __________________________________________________________
                >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
                >> A Smarter Inbox http://uk.docs. <http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html>
                yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                > --
                >
                > ============================================================
                > Any original content in this message is Copyright (c) [year
                > sent] by John Waters (john at esrad.org.uk | +44 686 413639)
                > and may only be redistributed under the terms of the GFDL
                > (http://www.gnu. <http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html>
                org/copyleft/fdl.html). NOT Public Domain.
                > ============================================================
                >
                >
                >

                ---------------------------------
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