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how to make alternative currencies mainstream

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  • epochonaut
    I ve begun discussions on various forums and blogs about a way to make alternative currencies more noticeable in popular culture. I know that the idea is
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 1, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      I've begun discussions on various forums and blogs about a way to make
      alternative currencies more noticeable in popular culture. I know that
      the idea is floating around in the collective unconscious and I've seen
      mention of it here and there, but still no major discussions. My belief
      is that the market for buying virtual money from online games like
      EverQuest or Ultima holds a clue as to how the alternative currency
      movement can capture the public imagination. If game currency is
      exchangeable for real money then it is just one step away from being
      real money in its own right. In at least one case a virtual currency has
      crossed that line and passed into direct monetary use. I'm considering
      how to translate these virtual currencies into a form that makes them
      usable within other types of online communities besides virtual game
      worlds. If such a currency is woven into the social fabric of a major
      community such as Youtube, in a way that compliments its purpose, it
      will attain social value and promote itself virally. This will
      eventually create a real-world demand for the currency just like it has
      for online games and it will start showing up on the same websites that
      facilitate the buying and selling of game money. As it becomes
      increasingly popular it will begin to be used directly as a form of
      currency. But the challenge is how to do this in a way that compliments
      the site's purpose. The purpose is generally to provide a place for
      users to freely create and share content or to enjoy the content created
      by other users. This could include videos, art, music, blogs or an
      evolving list of other kinds of creative works. For a community based
      around user generated content, virtual currency can be awarded to users
      based on the quality of their content as determined by ratings and
      number of viewings by other users. But that's only half the problem.
      They also need to be able to use it for something. What if someone
      uploads a video to Youtube which becomes extremely popular and they earn
      "You Dollars"? They can't trade in their You Dollars for cash unless
      there is a demand. There is no demand unless You Dollars are useful for
      something. Game money is useful because it lets gamers buy virtual game
      items. But how would you create an equivalent demand for the You Dollar
      or the Myspace Dollar or the Wikidollar while keeping the website free
      for everyone to use? I have some of my own ideas but they all strike me
      as ad hoc solutions. I'm trying to come up with something that makes
      people think, "Why didn't anyone do this already? It's obvious!" I've
      been wracking my brains over how this might work and I'm looking for
      some fresh perspectives. Any takers?
    • Thomas L. Wayburn
      Hello Epochnaut, I was somewhat enthusiastic about Deli Dollars and Farm Dollars in the late 80s when I heard about them because I imagined that they would cut
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 1, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello Epochnaut,

        I was somewhat enthusiastic about Deli Dollars and Farm Dollars in the
        late 80s when I heard about them because I imagined that they would cut
        banks and governments out of the loop both of which levy a sort of tax
        on currency but in different ways - governments by taxes and banks by
        fractional reserves that create inflation. However, I do not at all see
        what your suggestions do to promote sustainability and facilitate
        economic shrinkage; moreover, you have suggested the worst imaginable
        system of value, namely, popularity, which has no physical basis and is
        not a measure of cost to the environment. If you must receive
        remuneration for what you do and give, may I suggest the scheme of
        establishing values elucidated in http://www.dematerialism.net/cc1.htm
        <http://www.dematerialism.net/cc1.htm> .

        Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
        http://dematerialism.net/

        P.S. One advantage of a give-away economy is that, if your product is
        not useful to anyone, you can stop producing it, if it is useful to one
        person, you may produce one unit, which, in many cases, reduces the
        impact on the environment even if it is only bandwidth. I do not see,
        though, that it is ethical to charge a fee to use something that does
        not go away when you use it. That is why I embraced the copyleft idea
        and the Ethical Use of the Public Domain
        <http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org/index.php>.




        --- In cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com, "epochonaut" <epochonaut@...> wrote:
        >
        > I've begun discussions on various forums and blogs about a way to make
        > alternative currencies more noticeable in popular culture. I know that
        > the idea is floating around in the collective unconscious and I've
        seen
        > mention of it here and there, but still no major discussions. My
        belief
        > is that the market for buying virtual money from online games like
        > EverQuest or Ultima holds a clue as to how the alternative currency
        > movement can capture the public imagination. If game currency is
        > exchangeable for real money then it is just one step away from being
        > real money in its own right. In at least one case a virtual currency
        has
        > crossed that line and passed into direct monetary use. I'm
        considering
        > how to translate these virtual currencies into a form that makes them
        > usable within other types of online communities besides virtual game
        > worlds. If such a currency is woven into the social fabric of a major
        > community such as Youtube, in a way that compliments its purpose, it
        > will attain social value and promote itself virally. This will
        > eventually create a real-world demand for the currency just like it
        has
        > for online games and it will start showing up on the same websites
        that
        > facilitate the buying and selling of game money. As it becomes
        > increasingly popular it will begin to be used directly as a form of
        > currency. But the challenge is how to do this in a way that
        compliments
        > the site's purpose. The purpose is generally to provide a place for
        > users to freely create and share content or to enjoy the content
        created
        > by other users. This could include videos, art, music, blogs or an
        > evolving list of other kinds of creative works. For a community based
        > around user generated content, virtual currency can be awarded to
        users
        > based on the quality of their content as determined by ratings and
        > number of viewings by other users. But that's only half the problem.
        > They also need to be able to use it for something. What if someone
        > uploads a video to Youtube which becomes extremely popular and they
        earn
        > "You Dollars"? They can't trade in their You Dollars for cash unless
        > there is a demand. There is no demand unless You Dollars are useful
        for
        > something. Game money is useful because it lets gamers buy virtual
        game
        > items. But how would you create an equivalent demand for the You
        Dollar
        > or the Myspace Dollar or the Wikidollar while keeping the website free
        > for everyone to use? I have some of my own ideas but they all strike
        me
        > as ad hoc solutions. I'm trying to come up with something that makes
        > people think, "Why didn't anyone do this already? It's obvious!" I've
        > been wracking my brains over how this might work and I'm looking for
        > some fresh perspectives. Any takers?
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • John Rogers
        First, let s call them complementary rather than alternative currencies. You may think this is only a PR ruse to create credibility but it worked for
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 2, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          First, let's call them 'complementary' rather than 'alternative' currencies. You may think this is only a PR ruse to create credibility but it worked for 'complementary' therapies, which were then seen as less of a threat to mainstream healthcare than 'alternative' (which doesn't have all the answers to health and wellbeing anyway) and were able to become established and accepted by millions of people.

          Second, I agree with Tom that popularity in itself is not the goal. If we could demonstrate conclusively, for instance, how CCs could give people realistic strategies to offset the effects of global climate change or peak oil, then CCs would begin to achieve widespread credibility. Maybe I am getting old but I think the people who spend their days inhabiting virtual game worlds better wake up to what's happening on planet earth and do something about it with real rather than virtual currency.

          Here are the results of some research I just came across about attitudes towards climate change globally. It is striking how those in the 'developing' countries, who are bearing the brunt of climate change, are more awake to both the dangers and the opportunities.

          Check out Chris Goodall's e-newsletter at www.carboncommentary.com.

          He has distilled some international market research by HSBC at
          www.carboncommentary.com/2007/09/15/5#more-5

          "HSBC’s July 2007 survey entitled the Climate Confidence Index
          contained many surprising results. Carried out in nine major countries around
          the world, it showed that concern about climate change is far higher
          in developing countries than in the UK or the USA. As importantly, the
          inhabitants in these countries also think that the world is more likely
          to find ways to avert climate change problems.

          Almost 60% of people in Brazil, Mexico and India see global warming as
          one of the most pressing problems the world faces, compared to little
          more than 20% in the UK. Broadly speaking, the richer countries tend to
          see terrorism as a bigger threat to the world than climate change. In
          all nine nations bar the US, the level of concern tends to rise quite
          sharply with age. (This result is also seen in most other surveys of UK
          opinion.)

          Confidence that climate change will be successfully addressed by
          existing institutions is low in most places around the world. It falls to its
          lowest level (5%) in the UK. The UK also has the lowest level of
          people saying that they personally are making a significant effort to reduce
          climate change at 19%, compared to levels above 40% in developing
          countries. Fatalistic Britons are also almost the most pessimistic about
          whether global warming will be stopped, with only 6% of people saying
          ‘I believe we will stop climate change,’ compared to 45% in India and
          39% in China. ..."



          The problem at the moment is that CCs are weak in governance and management and there is too much ideology and not enough methodology. That is why I am writing a currency design manual that attempts to distill and apply the lessons of 20 years of experiments with CCs and tell some of the stories about CCs to show the potential of what they can do for communities and the environment.


          John Rogers

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Thomas L. Wayburn <twayburn@...>
          To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, 1 November, 2007 10:30:47 PM
          Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: how to make alternative currencies mainstream















          Hello Epochnaut,



          I was somewhat enthusiastic about Deli Dollars and Farm Dollars in the

          late 80s when I heard about them because I imagined that they would cut

          banks and governments out of the loop both of which levy a sort of tax

          on currency but in different ways - governments by taxes and banks by

          fractional reserves that create inflation. However, I do not at all see

          what your suggestions do to promote sustainability and facilitate

          economic shrinkage; moreover, you have suggested the worst imaginable

          system of value, namely, popularity, which has no physical basis and is

          not a measure of cost to the environment. If you must receive

          remuneration for what you do and give, may I suggest the scheme of

          establishing values elucidated in http://www.demateri alism.net/ cc1.htm

          <http://www.demateri alism.net/ cc1.htm> .



          Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas

          http://dematerialis m.net/



          P.S. One advantage of a give-away economy is that, if your product is

          not useful to anyone, you can stop producing it, if it is useful to one

          person, you may produce one unit, which, in many cases, reduces the

          impact on the environment even if it is only bandwidth. I do not see,

          though, that it is ethical to charge a fee to use something that does

          not go away when you use it. That is why I embraced the copyleft idea

          and the Ethical Use of the Public Domain

          <http://www.ethicalp ublicdomain. org/index. php>.



          --- In cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com, "epochonaut" <epochonaut@ ...> wrote:

          >

          > I've begun discussions on various forums and blogs about a way to make

          > alternative currencies more noticeable in popular culture. I know that

          > the idea is floating around in the collective unconscious and I've

          seen

          > mention of it here and there, but still no major discussions. My

          belief

          > is that the market for buying virtual money from online games like

          > EverQuest or Ultima holds a clue as to how the alternative currency

          > movement can capture the public imagination. If game currency is

          > exchangeable for real money then it is just one step away from being

          > real money in its own right. In at least one case a virtual currency

          has

          > crossed that line and passed into direct monetary use. I'm

          considering

          > how to translate these virtual currencies into a form that makes them

          > usable within other types of online communities besides virtual game

          > worlds. If such a currency is woven into the social fabric of a major

          > community such as Youtube, in a way that compliments its purpose, it

          > will attain social value and promote itself virally. This will

          > eventually create a real-world demand for the currency just like it

          has

          > for online games and it will start showing up on the same websites

          that

          > facilitate the buying and selling of game money. As it becomes

          > increasingly popular it will begin to be used directly as a form of

          > currency. But the challenge is how to do this in a way that

          compliments

          > the site's purpose. The purpose is generally to provide a place for

          > users to freely create and share content or to enjoy the content

          created

          > by other users. This could include videos, art, music, blogs or an

          > evolving list of other kinds of creative works. For a community based

          > around user generated content, virtual currency can be awarded to

          users

          > based on the quality of their content as determined by ratings and

          > number of viewings by other users. But that's only half the problem.

          > They also need to be able to use it for something. What if someone

          > uploads a video to Youtube which becomes extremely popular and they

          earn

          > "You Dollars"? They can't trade in their You Dollars for cash unless

          > there is a demand. There is no demand unless You Dollars are useful

          for

          > something. Game money is useful because it lets gamers buy virtual

          game

          > items. But how would you create an equivalent demand for the You

          Dollar

          > or the Myspace Dollar or the Wikidollar while keeping the website free

          > for everyone to use? I have some of my own ideas but they all strike

          me

          > as ad hoc solutions. I'm trying to come up with something that makes

          > people think, "Why didn't anyone do this already? It's obvious!" I've

          > been wracking my brains over how this might work and I'm looking for

          > some fresh perspectives. Any takers?

          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]














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          ___________________________________________________________
          Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it
          now.
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tom Wayburn
          Thanks for replying, John. I wonder if you have looked into the possibility of a currency based upon eMergy analysis as in http://dematerialism.net/cc1.htm .
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 2, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks for replying, John. I wonder if you have looked into the possibility
            of a currency based upon eMergy analysis as in
            http://dematerialism.net/cc1.htm . Unlike money, it provides a
            time-invariant, physical measure of economic value. Elsewhere I suggested
            that the concept of negative emergy or nemergy could be used to account for
            the actual thermodynamic cost of pollution of every type:
            http://www.dematerialism.net/emergyunit.htm





            Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
            http://demaaterialism.net/

            _____

            From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of John Rogers
            Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 6:11 AM
            To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Re: how to make alternative currencies mainstream



            First, let's call them 'complementary' rather than 'alternative' currencies.
            You may think this is only a PR ruse to create credibility but it worked for
            'complementary' therapies, which were then seen as less of a threat to
            mainstream healthcare than 'alternative' (which doesn't have all the answers
            to health and wellbeing anyway) and were able to become established and
            accepted by millions of people.

            Second, I agree with Tom that popularity in itself is not the goal. If we
            could demonstrate conclusively, for instance, how CCs could give people
            realistic strategies to offset the effects of global climate change or peak
            oil, then CCs would begin to achieve widespread credibility. Maybe I am
            getting old but I think the people who spend their days inhabiting virtual
            game worlds better wake up to what's happening on planet earth and do
            something about it with real rather than virtual currency.

            Here are the results of some research I just came across about attitudes
            towards climate change globally. It is striking how those in the
            'developing' countries, who are bearing the brunt of climate change, are
            more awake to both the dangers and the opportunities.

            Check out Chris Goodall's e-newsletter at www.carboncommentary.com.

            He has distilled some international market research by HSBC at
            www.carboncommentary.com/2007/09/15/5#more-5

            "HSBC's July 2007 survey entitled the Climate Confidence Index
            contained many surprising results. Carried out in nine major countries
            around
            the world, it showed that concern about climate change is far higher
            in developing countries than in the UK or the USA. As importantly, the
            inhabitants in these countries also think that the world is more likely
            to find ways to avert climate change problems.

            Almost 60% of people in Brazil, Mexico and India see global warming as
            one of the most pressing problems the world faces, compared to little
            more than 20% in the UK. Broadly speaking, the richer countries tend to
            see terrorism as a bigger threat to the world than climate change. In
            all nine nations bar the US, the level of concern tends to rise quite
            sharply with age. (This result is also seen in most other surveys of UK
            opinion.)

            Confidence that climate change will be successfully addressed by
            existing institutions is low in most places around the world. It falls to
            its
            lowest level (5%) in the UK. The UK also has the lowest level of
            people saying that they personally are making a significant effort to reduce
            climate change at 19%, compared to levels above 40% in developing
            countries. Fatalistic Britons are also almost the most pessimistic about
            whether global warming will be stopped, with only 6% of people saying
            'I believe we will stop climate change,' compared to 45% in India and
            39% in China. ..."

            The problem at the moment is that CCs are weak in governance and management
            and there is too much ideology and not enough methodology. That is why I am
            writing a currency design manual that attempts to distill and apply the
            lessons of 20 years of experiments with CCs and tell some of the stories
            about CCs to show the potential of what they can do for communities and the
            environment.

            John Rogers

            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Thomas L. Wayburn <twayburn@wt. <mailto:twayburn%40wt.net> net>
            To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
            Sent: Thursday, 1 November, 2007 10:30:47 PM
            Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: how to make alternative currencies mainstream

            Hello Epochnaut,

            I was somewhat enthusiastic about Deli Dollars and Farm Dollars in the

            late 80s when I heard about them because I imagined that they would cut

            banks and governments out of the loop both of which levy a sort of tax

            on currency but in different ways - governments by taxes and banks by

            fractional reserves that create inflation. However, I do not at all see

            what your suggestions do to promote sustainability and facilitate

            economic shrinkage; moreover, you have suggested the worst imaginable

            system of value, namely, popularity, which has no physical basis and is

            not a measure of cost to the environment. If you must receive

            remuneration for what you do and give, may I suggest the scheme of

            establishing values elucidated in http://www.demateri alism.net/ cc1.htm

            <http://www.demateri alism.net/ cc1.htm> .

            Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas

            http://dematerialis m.net/

            P.S. One advantage of a give-away economy is that, if your product is

            not useful to anyone, you can stop producing it, if it is useful to one

            person, you may produce one unit, which, in many cases, reduces the

            impact on the environment even if it is only bandwidth. I do not see,

            though, that it is ethical to charge a fee to use something that does

            not go away when you use it. That is why I embraced the copyleft idea

            and the Ethical Use of the Public Domain

            <http://www.ethicalp ublicdomain. org/index. php>.

            --- In cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com, "epochonaut" <epochonaut@ ...> wrote:

            >

            > I've begun discussions on various forums and blogs about a way to make

            > alternative currencies more noticeable in popular culture. I know that

            > the idea is floating around in the collective unconscious and I've

            seen

            > mention of it here and there, but still no major discussions. My

            belief

            > is that the market for buying virtual money from online games like

            > EverQuest or Ultima holds a clue as to how the alternative currency

            > movement can capture the public imagination. If game currency is

            > exchangeable for real money then it is just one step away from being

            > real money in its own right. In at least one case a virtual currency

            has

            > crossed that line and passed into direct monetary use. I'm

            considering

            > how to translate these virtual currencies into a form that makes them

            > usable within other types of online communities besides virtual game

            > worlds. If such a currency is woven into the social fabric of a major

            > community such as Youtube, in a way that compliments its purpose, it

            > will attain social value and promote itself virally. This will

            > eventually create a real-world demand for the currency just like it

            has

            > for online games and it will start showing up on the same websites

            that

            > facilitate the buying and selling of game money. As it becomes

            > increasingly popular it will begin to be used directly as a form of

            > currency. But the challenge is how to do this in a way that

            compliments

            > the site's purpose. The purpose is generally to provide a place for

            > users to freely create and share content or to enjoy the content

            created

            > by other users. This could include videos, art, music, blogs or an

            > evolving list of other kinds of creative works. For a community based

            > around user generated content, virtual currency can be awarded to

            users

            > based on the quality of their content as determined by ratings and

            > number of viewings by other users. But that's only half the problem.

            > They also need to be able to use it for something. What if someone

            > uploads a video to Youtube which becomes extremely popular and they

            earn

            > "You Dollars"? They can't trade in their You Dollars for cash unless

            > there is a demand. There is no demand unless You Dollars are useful

            for

            > something. Game money is useful because it lets gamers buy virtual

            game

            > items. But how would you create an equivalent demand for the You

            Dollar

            > or the Myspace Dollar or the Wikidollar while keeping the website free

            > for everyone to use? I have some of my own ideas but they all strike

            me

            > as ad hoc solutions. I'm trying to come up with something that makes

            > people think, "Why didn't anyone do this already? It's obvious!" I've

            > been wracking my brains over how this might work and I'm looking for

            > some fresh perspectives. Any takers?

            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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          • John Rogers
            I know two Germans, Margrit Kennedy and Ludwig Schuster, engaged in separate attempts to create regional energy-backed currencies, based on kilowatt-hours
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 2, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              I know two Germans, Margrit Kennedy and Ludwig Schuster, engaged in separate attempts to create regional energy-backed currencies, based on kilowatt-hours saved or generated from renewables.

              As soon as I have more information on these efforts I will post it here and at my blog.

              John Rogers

              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Tom Wayburn <twayburn@...>
              To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, 2 November, 2007 12:26:56 PM
              Subject: RE: [cyfranogi] Re: how to make alternative currencies mainstream













              Thanks for replying, John. I wonder if you have looked into the possibility

              of a currency based upon eMergy analysis as in

              http://dematerialis m.net/cc1. htm . Unlike money, it provides a

              time-invariant, physical measure of economic value. Elsewhere I suggested

              that the concept of negative emergy or nemergy could be used to account for

              the actual thermodynamic cost of pollution of every type:

              http://www.demateri alism.net/ emergyunit. htm



              Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas

              http://demaateriali sm.net/



              _____



              From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf

              Of John Rogers

              Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 6:11 AM

              To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com

              Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Re: how to make alternative currencies mainstream



              First, let's call them 'complementary' rather than 'alternative' currencies.

              You may think this is only a PR ruse to create credibility but it worked for

              'complementary' therapies, which were then seen as less of a threat to

              mainstream healthcare than 'alternative' (which doesn't have all the answers

              to health and wellbeing anyway) and were able to become established and

              accepted by millions of people.



              Second, I agree with Tom that popularity in itself is not the goal. If we

              could demonstrate conclusively, for instance, how CCs could give people

              realistic strategies to offset the effects of global climate change or peak

              oil, then CCs would begin to achieve widespread credibility. Maybe I am

              getting old but I think the people who spend their days inhabiting virtual

              game worlds better wake up to what's happening on planet earth and do

              something about it with real rather than virtual currency.



              Here are the results of some research I just came across about attitudes

              towards climate change globally. It is striking how those in the

              'developing' countries, who are bearing the brunt of climate change, are

              more awake to both the dangers and the opportunities.



              Check out Chris Goodall's e-newsletter at www.carboncommentar y.com.



              He has distilled some international market research by HSBC at

              www.carboncommentar y.com/2007/ 09/15/5#more- 5



              "HSBC's July 2007 survey entitled the Climate Confidence Index

              contained many surprising results. Carried out in nine major countries

              around

              the world, it showed that concern about climate change is far higher

              in developing countries than in the UK or the USA. As importantly, the

              inhabitants in these countries also think that the world is more likely

              to find ways to avert climate change problems.



              Almost 60% of people in Brazil, Mexico and India see global warming as

              one of the most pressing problems the world faces, compared to little

              more than 20% in the UK. Broadly speaking, the richer countries tend to

              see terrorism as a bigger threat to the world than climate change. In

              all nine nations bar the US, the level of concern tends to rise quite

              sharply with age. (This result is also seen in most other surveys of UK

              opinion.)



              Confidence that climate change will be successfully addressed by

              existing institutions is low in most places around the world. It falls to

              its

              lowest level (5%) in the UK. The UK also has the lowest level of

              people saying that they personally are making a significant effort to reduce

              climate change at 19%, compared to levels above 40% in developing

              countries. Fatalistic Britons are also almost the most pessimistic about

              whether global warming will be stopped, with only 6% of people saying

              'I believe we will stop climate change,' compared to 45% in India and

              39% in China. ..."



              The problem at the moment is that CCs are weak in governance and management

              and there is too much ideology and not enough methodology. That is why I am

              writing a currency design manual that attempts to distill and apply the

              lessons of 20 years of experiments with CCs and tell some of the stories

              about CCs to show the potential of what they can do for communities and the

              environment.



              John Rogers



              ----- Original Message ----

              From: Thomas L. Wayburn <twayburn@wt. <mailto:twayburn% 40wt.net> net>

              To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com

              Sent: Thursday, 1 November, 2007 10:30:47 PM

              Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: how to make alternative currencies mainstream



              Hello Epochnaut,



              I was somewhat enthusiastic about Deli Dollars and Farm Dollars in the



              late 80s when I heard about them because I imagined that they would cut



              banks and governments out of the loop both of which levy a sort of tax



              on currency but in different ways - governments by taxes and banks by



              fractional reserves that create inflation. However, I do not at all see



              what your suggestions do to promote sustainability and facilitate



              economic shrinkage; moreover, you have suggested the worst imaginable



              system of value, namely, popularity, which has no physical basis and is



              not a measure of cost to the environment. If you must receive



              remuneration for what you do and give, may I suggest the scheme of



              establishing values elucidated in http://www.demateri alism.net/ cc1.htm



              <http://www.demateri alism.net/ cc1.htm> .



              Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas



              http://dematerialis m.net/



              P.S. One advantage of a give-away economy is that, if your product is



              not useful to anyone, you can stop producing it, if it is useful to one



              person, you may produce one unit, which, in many cases, reduces the



              impact on the environment even if it is only bandwidth. I do not see,



              though, that it is ethical to charge a fee to use something that does



              not go away when you use it. That is why I embraced the copyleft idea



              and the Ethical Use of the Public Domain



              <http://www.ethicalp ublicdomain. org/index. php>.



              --- In cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com, "epochonaut" <epochonaut@ ...> wrote:



              >



              > I've begun discussions on various forums and blogs about a way to make



              > alternative currencies more noticeable in popular culture. I know that



              > the idea is floating around in the collective unconscious and I've



              seen



              > mention of it here and there, but still no major discussions. My



              belief



              > is that the market for buying virtual money from online games like



              > EverQuest or Ultima holds a clue as to how the alternative currency



              > movement can capture the public imagination. If game currency is



              > exchangeable for real money then it is just one step away from being



              > real money in its own right. In at least one case a virtual currency



              has



              > crossed that line and passed into direct monetary use. I'm



              considering



              > how to translate these virtual currencies into a form that makes them



              > usable within other types of online communities besides virtual game



              > worlds. If such a currency is woven into the social fabric of a major



              > community such as Youtube, in a way that compliments its purpose, it



              > will attain social value and promote itself virally. This will



              > eventually create a real-world demand for the currency just like it



              has



              > for online games and it will start showing up on the same websites



              that



              > facilitate the buying and selling of game money. As it becomes



              > increasingly popular it will begin to be used directly as a form of



              > currency. But the challenge is how to do this in a way that



              compliments



              > the site's purpose. The purpose is generally to provide a place for



              > users to freely create and share content or to enjoy the content



              created



              > by other users. This could include videos, art, music, blogs or an



              > evolving list of other kinds of creative works. For a community based



              > around user generated content, virtual currency can be awarded to



              users



              > based on the quality of their content as determined by ratings and



              > number of viewings by other users. But that's only half the problem.



              > They also need to be able to use it for something. What if someone



              > uploads a video to Youtube which becomes extremely popular and they



              earn



              > "You Dollars"? They can't trade in their You Dollars for cash unless



              > there is a demand. There is no demand unless You Dollars are useful



              for



              > something. Game money is useful because it lets gamers buy virtual



              game



              > items. But how would you create an equivalent demand for the You



              Dollar



              > or the Myspace Dollar or the Wikidollar while keeping the website free



              > for everyone to use? I have some of my own ideas but they all strike



              me



              > as ad hoc solutions. I'm trying to come up with something that makes



              > people think, "Why didn't anyone do this already? It's obvious!" I've



              > been wracking my brains over how this might work and I'm looking for



              > some fresh perspectives. Any takers?



              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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              ___________________________________________________________
              Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Miguel Yasuyuki Hirota
              Dear all, Actually Strohalm has recently launched such a system in Honduras, Central America called Gota Verde ( Green Drop in Spanish). Visit the
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 2, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear all,

                Actually Strohalm has recently launched such a system in Honduras,
                Central America called "Gota Verde" ("Green Drop" in Spanish). Visit
                the following websites to learn more.

                http://www.strohalm.net/
                http://www.stro-ca.org/ (in Spanish)
                http://www.gotaverde.org/ (in Spanish)

                Cordially,

                Miguel from Japan

                John Rogers wrote:
                > I know two Germans, Margrit Kennedy and Ludwig Schuster, engaged in separate attempts to create regional energy-backed currencies, based on kilowatt-hours saved or generated from renewables.
                >
                > As soon as I have more information on these efforts I will post it here and at my blog.
                >
                > John Rogers
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: Tom Wayburn <twayburn@...>
                > To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, 2 November, 2007 12:26:56 PM
                > Subject: RE: [cyfranogi] Re: how to make alternative currencies mainstream
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Thanks for replying, John. I wonder if you have looked into the possibility
                >
                > of a currency based upon eMergy analysis as in
                >
                > http://dematerialis m.net/cc1. htm . Unlike money, it provides a
                >
                > time-invariant, physical measure of economic value. Elsewhere I suggested
                >
                > that the concept of negative emergy or nemergy could be used to account for
                >
                > the actual thermodynamic cost of pollution of every type:
                >
                > http://www.demateri alism.net/ emergyunit. htm
                >
                >
                >
                > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                >
                > http://demaateriali sm.net/
                >
                >
                >
                > _____
                >
                >
                >
                > From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf
                >
                > Of John Rogers
                >
                > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 6:11 AM
                >
                > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                >
                > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Re: how to make alternative currencies mainstream
                >
                >
                >
                > First, let's call them 'complementary' rather than 'alternative' currencies.
                >
                > You may think this is only a PR ruse to create credibility but it worked for
                >
                > 'complementary' therapies, which were then seen as less of a threat to
                >
                > mainstream healthcare than 'alternative' (which doesn't have all the answers
                >
                > to health and wellbeing anyway) and were able to become established and
                >
                > accepted by millions of people.
                >
                >
                >
                > Second, I agree with Tom that popularity in itself is not the goal. If we
                >
                > could demonstrate conclusively, for instance, how CCs could give people
                >
                > realistic strategies to offset the effects of global climate change or peak
                >
                > oil, then CCs would begin to achieve widespread credibility. Maybe I am
                >
                > getting old but I think the people who spend their days inhabiting virtual
                >
                > game worlds better wake up to what's happening on planet earth and do
                >
                > something about it with real rather than virtual currency.
                >
                >
                >
                > Here are the results of some research I just came across about attitudes
                >
                > towards climate change globally. It is striking how those in the
                >
                > 'developing' countries, who are bearing the brunt of climate change, are
                >
                > more awake to both the dangers and the opportunities.
                >
                >
                >
                > Check out Chris Goodall's e-newsletter at www.carboncommentar y.com.
                >
                >
                >
                > He has distilled some international market research by HSBC at
                >
                > www.carboncommentar y.com/2007/ 09/15/5#more- 5
                >
                >
                >
                > "HSBC's July 2007 survey entitled the Climate Confidence Index
                >
                > contained many surprising results. Carried out in nine major countries
                >
                > around
                >
                > the world, it showed that concern about climate change is far higher
                >
                > in developing countries than in the UK or the USA. As importantly, the
                >
                > inhabitants in these countries also think that the world is more likely
                >
                > to find ways to avert climate change problems.
                >
                >
                >
                > Almost 60% of people in Brazil, Mexico and India see global warming as
                >
                > one of the most pressing problems the world faces, compared to little
                >
                > more than 20% in the UK. Broadly speaking, the richer countries tend to
                >
                > see terrorism as a bigger threat to the world than climate change. In
                >
                > all nine nations bar the US, the level of concern tends to rise quite
                >
                > sharply with age. (This result is also seen in most other surveys of UK
                >
                > opinion.)
                >
                >
                >
                > Confidence that climate change will be successfully addressed by
                >
                > existing institutions is low in most places around the world. It falls to
                >
                > its
                >
                > lowest level (5%) in the UK. The UK also has the lowest level of
                >
                > people saying that they personally are making a significant effort to reduce
                >
                > climate change at 19%, compared to levels above 40% in developing
                >
                > countries. Fatalistic Britons are also almost the most pessimistic about
                >
                > whether global warming will be stopped, with only 6% of people saying
                >
                > 'I believe we will stop climate change,' compared to 45% in India and
                >
                > 39% in China. ..."
                >
                >
                >
                > The problem at the moment is that CCs are weak in governance and management
                >
                > and there is too much ideology and not enough methodology. That is why I am
                >
                > writing a currency design manual that attempts to distill and apply the
                >
                > lessons of 20 years of experiments with CCs and tell some of the stories
                >
                > about CCs to show the potential of what they can do for communities and the
                >
                > environment.
                >
                >
                >
                > John Rogers
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                >
                > From: Thomas L. Wayburn <twayburn@wt. <mailto:twayburn% 40wt.net> net>
                >
                > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com
                >
                > Sent: Thursday, 1 November, 2007 10:30:47 PM
                >
                > Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: how to make alternative currencies mainstream
                >
                >
                >
                > Hello Epochnaut,
                >
                >
                >
                > I was somewhat enthusiastic about Deli Dollars and Farm Dollars in the
                >
                >
                >
                > late 80s when I heard about them because I imagined that they would cut
                >
                >
                >
                > banks and governments out of the loop both of which levy a sort of tax
                >
                >
                >
                > on currency but in different ways - governments by taxes and banks by
                >
                >
                >
                > fractional reserves that create inflation. However, I do not at all see
                >
                >
                >
                > what your suggestions do to promote sustainability and facilitate
                >
                >
                >
                > economic shrinkage; moreover, you have suggested the worst imaginable
                >
                >
                >
                > system of value, namely, popularity, which has no physical basis and is
                >
                >
                >
                > not a measure of cost to the environment. If you must receive
                >
                >
                >
                > remuneration for what you do and give, may I suggest the scheme of
                >
                >
                >
                > establishing values elucidated in http://www.demateri alism.net/ cc1.htm
                >
                >
                >
                > <http://www.demateri alism.net/ cc1.htm> .
                >
                >
                >
                > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                >
                >
                >
                > http://dematerialis m.net/
                >
                >
                >
                > P.S. One advantage of a give-away economy is that, if your product is
                >
                >
                >
                > not useful to anyone, you can stop producing it, if it is useful to one
                >
                >
                >
                > person, you may produce one unit, which, in many cases, reduces the
                >
                >
                >
                > impact on the environment even if it is only bandwidth. I do not see,
                >
                >
                >
                > though, that it is ethical to charge a fee to use something that does
                >
                >
                >
                > not go away when you use it. That is why I embraced the copyleft idea
                >
                >
                >
                > and the Ethical Use of the Public Domain
                >
                >
                >
                > <http://www.ethicalp ublicdomain. org/index. php>.
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com, "epochonaut" <epochonaut@ ...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>I've begun discussions on various forums and blogs about a way to make
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>alternative currencies more noticeable in popular culture. I know that
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>the idea is floating around in the collective unconscious and I've
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > seen
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>mention of it here and there, but still no major discussions. My
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > belief
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>is that the market for buying virtual money from online games like
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>EverQuest or Ultima holds a clue as to how the alternative currency
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>movement can capture the public imagination. If game currency is
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>exchangeable for real money then it is just one step away from being
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>real money in its own right. In at least one case a virtual currency
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > has
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>crossed that line and passed into direct monetary use. I'm
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > considering
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>how to translate these virtual currencies into a form that makes them
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>usable within other types of online communities besides virtual game
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>worlds. If such a currency is woven into the social fabric of a major
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>community such as Youtube, in a way that compliments its purpose, it
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>will attain social value and promote itself virally. This will
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>eventually create a real-world demand for the currency just like it
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > has
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>for online games and it will start showing up on the same websites
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > that
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>facilitate the buying and selling of game money. As it becomes
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>increasingly popular it will begin to be used directly as a form of
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>currency. But the challenge is how to do this in a way that
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > compliments
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>the site's purpose. The purpose is generally to provide a place for
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>users to freely create and share content or to enjoy the content
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > created
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>by other users. This could include videos, art, music, blogs or an
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>evolving list of other kinds of creative works. For a community based
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>around user generated content, virtual currency can be awarded to
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > users
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>based on the quality of their content as determined by ratings and
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>number of viewings by other users. But that's only half the problem.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>They also need to be able to use it for something. What if someone
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>uploads a video to Youtube which becomes extremely popular and they
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > earn
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>"You Dollars"? They can't trade in their You Dollars for cash unless
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>there is a demand. There is no demand unless You Dollars are useful
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > for
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>something. Game money is useful because it lets gamers buy virtual
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > game
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>items. But how would you create an equivalent demand for the You
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Dollar
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>or the Myspace Dollar or the Wikidollar while keeping the website free
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>for everyone to use? I have some of my own ideas but they all strike
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > me
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>as ad hoc solutions. I'm trying to come up with something that makes
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>people think, "Why didn't anyone do this already? It's obvious!" I've
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>been wracking my brains over how this might work and I'm looking for
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>some fresh perspectives. Any takers?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
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                --
                ****************************
                Miguel Yasuyuki Hirota
                mig@...
                OLCCJP: http://www.olccjp.net
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                (with link to other languages)
                Skype name: migjp2003
              • epochonaut
                Any given currency would need some minimum amount of popularity and trust before it could pass into popular use, but that s not what I m talking about. I m
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 2, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Any given currency would need some minimum amount of popularity and
                  trust before it could pass into popular use, but that's not what I'm
                  talking about. I'm talking about popularizing the general concept of
                  complementary currencies. I want it to become a Web 2.0 killer ap that
                  ignites the enthusiasm of software developers and brings their
                  considerable skills and innovation to bear on the creation of new forms
                  of money.

                  I also think that social software holds the key. Online games are just
                  one example of social software, and I don't necessarily agree that the
                  people who play them are people who need to wake up to the real world.
                  Young people are actually learning things
                  <http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/25/AR20051\
                  22500655.html> about economics and about leadership from playing these
                  games that most adults don't even understand. Online games can be useful
                  and informative if game developers build on that potential. At the end
                  of the day it's just another way that people socialize with each other.
                  They are responsible for balancing their social lives with the practical
                  concerns of living.

                  But I see social software as fertile ground for spreading the idea of
                  complementary currencies. They bring together anywhere from tens to
                  hundreds of millions of people. In some cases it's just to randomly
                  socialize. In other cases like Wikipedia or Youtube or Digg it's to
                  collaborate on building something through sharing. The human need to
                  connect to other people is a force in its own right. It can be used to
                  accomplish something like the popularization of a new idea.

                  I briefly alluded to a virtual currency that has already crossed the
                  line into direct monetary use. I was referring to an instant messenger
                  program in China called the QQ Messenger which has its own virtual
                  currency called the QQcoin. More than 200,000,000 Chinese use this
                  messenger program and are able to swap QQcoins with each other over the
                  net. Individuals and companies have begun to accept it as direct payment
                  for products and services. The most descriptive articles I've been able
                  to find on it are here
                  <http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB117519670114653518-FR_svDHxRtxkv\
                  NmGwwpouq_hl2g_20080329.html> and here
                  <http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Business/HL05Cb01.html> .

                  But whether or not the 'economies' that spring up from these virtual
                  currencies are based on sound economic theory is a separate issue that
                  needs to be dealt with in its own right. I virtual currency for some
                  type of online community could function in the same way as the LETS
                  system <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LETS> . Or it could follow the
                  theories of Silvio Gesell <http://www.systemfehler.de/en/neo/> . Or it
                  could function in some other way. But I believe that by fusing
                  complementary currencies with web 2.0 innovation they can begin to
                  receive mainstream attention and consideration.

                  --- In cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com, John Rogers <atholl2003@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > First, let's call them 'complementary' rather than 'alternative'
                  currencies. You may think this is only a PR ruse to create credibility
                  but it worked for 'complementary' therapies, which were then seen as
                  less of a threat to mainstream healthcare than 'alternative' (which
                  doesn't have all the answers to health and wellbeing anyway) and were
                  able to become established and accepted by millions of people.
                  >
                  > Second, I agree with Tom that popularity in itself is not the goal.
                  If we could demonstrate conclusively, for instance, how CCs could give
                  people realistic strategies to offset the effects of global climate
                  change or peak oil, then CCs would begin to achieve widespread
                  credibility. Maybe I am getting old but I think the people who spend
                  their days inhabiting virtual game worlds better wake up to what's
                  happening on planet earth and do something about it with real rather
                  than virtual currency.
                  >
                  > Here are the results of some research I just came across about
                  attitudes towards climate change globally. It is striking how those in
                  the 'developing' countries, who are bearing the brunt of climate change,
                  are more awake to both the dangers and the opportunities.
                  >
                  > Check out Chris Goodall's e-newsletter at www.carboncommentary.com.
                  >
                  > He has distilled some international market research by HSBC at
                  > www.carboncommentary.com/2007/09/15/5#more-5
                  >
                  > "HSBC's July 2007 survey entitled the Climate Confidence Index
                  > contained many surprising results. Carried out in nine major
                  countries around
                  > the world, it showed that concern about climate change is far higher
                  > in developing countries than in the UK or the USA. As importantly,
                  the
                  > inhabitants in these countries also think that the world is more
                  likely
                  > to find ways to avert climate change problems.
                  >
                  > Almost 60% of people in Brazil, Mexico and India see global warming as
                  > one of the most pressing problems the world faces, compared to little
                  > more than 20% in the UK. Broadly speaking, the richer countries tend
                  to
                  > see terrorism as a bigger threat to the world than climate change. In
                  > all nine nations bar the US, the level of concern tends to rise quite
                  > sharply with age. (This result is also seen in most other surveys of
                  UK
                  > opinion.)
                  >
                  > Confidence that climate change will be successfully addressed by
                  > existing institutions is low in most places around the world. It
                  falls to its
                  > lowest level (5%) in the UK. The UK also has the lowest level of
                  > people saying that they personally are making a significant effort to
                  reduce
                  > climate change at 19%, compared to levels above 40% in developing
                  > countries. Fatalistic Britons are also almost the most pessimistic
                  about
                  > whether global warming will be stopped, with only 6% of people saying
                  > `I believe we will stop climate change,' compared to 45% in
                  India and
                  > 39% in China. ..."
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The problem at the moment is that CCs are weak in governance and
                  management and there is too much ideology and not enough methodology.
                  That is why I am writing a currency design manual that attempts to
                  distill and apply the lessons of 20 years of experiments with CCs and
                  tell some of the stories about CCs to show the potential of what they
                  can do for communities and the environment.
                  >
                  >
                  > John Rogers
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message ----
                  > From: Thomas L. Wayburn <twayburn@...>
                  > To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Thursday, 1 November, 2007 10:30:47 PM
                  > Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: how to make alternative currencies mainstream
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello Epochnaut,
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I was somewhat enthusiastic about Deli Dollars and Farm Dollars in the
                  >
                  > late 80s when I heard about them because I imagined that they would
                  cut
                  >
                  > banks and governments out of the loop both of which levy a sort of tax
                  >
                  > on currency but in different ways - governments by taxes and banks by
                  >
                  > fractional reserves that create inflation. However, I do not at all
                  see
                  >
                  > what your suggestions do to promote sustainability and facilitate
                  >
                  > economic shrinkage; moreover, you have suggested the worst imaginable
                  >
                  > system of value, namely, popularity, which has no physical basis and
                  is
                  >
                  > not a measure of cost to the environment. If you must receive
                  >
                  > remuneration for what you do and give, may I suggest the scheme of
                  >
                  > establishing values elucidated in http://www.demateri alism.net/
                  cc1.htm
                  >
                  > <http://www.demateri alism.net/ cc1.htm> .
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                  >
                  > http://dematerialis m.net/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > P.S. One advantage of a give-away economy is that, if your product is
                  >
                  > not useful to anyone, you can stop producing it, if it is useful to
                  one
                  >
                  > person, you may produce one unit, which, in many cases, reduces the
                  >
                  > impact on the environment even if it is only bandwidth. I do not see,
                  >
                  > though, that it is ethical to charge a fee to use something that does
                  >
                  > not go away when you use it. That is why I embraced the copyleft idea
                  >
                  > and the Ethical Use of the Public Domain
                  >
                  > <http://www.ethicalp ublicdomain. org/index. php>.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com, "epochonaut" <epochonaut@ ...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > I've begun discussions on various forums and blogs about a way to
                  make
                  >
                  > > alternative currencies more noticeable in popular culture. I know
                  that
                  >
                  > > the idea is floating around in the collective unconscious and I've
                  >
                  > seen
                  >
                  > > mention of it here and there, but still no major discussions. My
                  >
                  > belief
                  >
                  > > is that the market for buying virtual money from online games like
                  >
                  > > EverQuest or Ultima holds a clue as to how the alternative currency
                  >
                  > > movement can capture the public imagination. If game currency is
                  >
                  > > exchangeable for real money then it is just one step away from being
                  >
                  > > real money in its own right. In at least one case a virtual currency
                  >
                  > has
                  >
                  > > crossed that line and passed into direct monetary use. I'm
                  >
                  > considering
                  >
                  > > how to translate these virtual currencies into a form that makes
                  them
                  >
                  > > usable within other types of online communities besides virtual game
                  >
                  > > worlds. If such a currency is woven into the social fabric of a
                  major
                  >
                  > > community such as Youtube, in a way that compliments its purpose, it
                  >
                  > > will attain social value and promote itself virally. This will
                  >
                  > > eventually create a real-world demand for the currency just like it
                  >
                  > has
                  >
                  > > for online games and it will start showing up on the same websites
                  >
                  > that
                  >
                  > > facilitate the buying and selling of game money. As it becomes
                  >
                  > > increasingly popular it will begin to be used directly as a form of
                  >
                  > > currency. But the challenge is how to do this in a way that
                  >
                  > compliments
                  >
                  > > the site's purpose. The purpose is generally to provide a place for
                  >
                  > > users to freely create and share content or to enjoy the content
                  >
                  > created
                  >
                  > > by other users. This could include videos, art, music, blogs or an
                  >
                  > > evolving list of other kinds of creative works. For a community
                  based
                  >
                  > > around user generated content, virtual currency can be awarded to
                  >
                  > users
                  >
                  > > based on the quality of their content as determined by ratings and
                  >
                  > > number of viewings by other users. But that's only half the
                  problem.
                  >
                  > > They also need to be able to use it for something. What if someone
                  >
                  > > uploads a video to Youtube which becomes extremely popular and they
                  >
                  > earn
                  >
                  > > "You Dollars"? They can't trade in their You Dollars for cash unless
                  >
                  > > there is a demand. There is no demand unless You Dollars are useful
                  >
                  > for
                  >
                  > > something. Game money is useful because it lets gamers buy virtual
                  >
                  > game
                  >
                  > > items. But how would you create an equivalent demand for the You
                  >
                  > Dollar
                  >
                  > > or the Myspace Dollar or the Wikidollar while keeping the website
                  free
                  >
                  > > for everyone to use? I have some of my own ideas but they all
                  strike
                  >
                  > me
                  >
                  > > as ad hoc solutions. I'm trying to come up with something that makes
                  >
                  > > people think, "Why didn't anyone do this already? It's obvious!"
                  I've
                  >
                  > > been wracking my brains over how this might work and I'm looking for
                  >
                  > > some fresh perspectives. Any takers?
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ___________________________________________________________
                  > Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer.
                  Try it
                  > now.
                  > http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John Waters
                  ... I couldn t agree more strongly. Energy can be used as a measure of many outwardly diverse essentials, and it may be the only absolute backing for a
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 2, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Tom Wayburn wrote:

                    > Thanks for replying, John. I wonder if you have looked into the
                    > possibility of a currency based upon eMergy analysis as in
                    > http://dematerialism.net/cc1.htm . Unlike money, it provides a
                    > time-invariant, physical measure of economic value.

                    I couldn't agree more strongly. Energy can be used as a measure of many
                    outwardly diverse essentials, and it may be the only absolute backing
                    for a store-of-value currency (no matter how valuable human time may be
                    as a moral store-of-value measure).

                    Unfortunately (as far as I can see) there's no possibility of an
                    all-purpose currency design, so energy and human-time can only provide
                    components in a more information-preserving collection of appropriately
                    applied currencies (both "scalar currencies" and "vector
                    currencies"/"compound currencies").

                    It's encouraging to see individuals who focus or specialize in one area
                    or another of currency design communicating progressoively more openly
                    with others. I'm optimistic that this will make it easier to draw
                    together the various components of a sustainable, information-preserving
                    economy.

                    So ...

                    > Elsewhere
                    > I suggested that the concept of negative emergy or nemergy
                    > could be used to account for the actual thermodynamic cost of
                    > pollution of every type:

                    ... yes. :-)

                    John :)



                    > http://www.dematerialism.net/emergyunit.htm
                    >
                    > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                    > http://demaaterialism.net/
                    >



                    ============================================================
                    Any original content in this message is Copyright (c) [year
                    sent] by John Waters (john at esrad.org.uk | +44 686 413639)
                    and may only be redistributed under the terms of the GFDL
                    (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html). NOT Public Domain.
                    ============================================================
                  • John Waters
                    ... separate ... kilowatt-hours ... We have plans to develop something similar in Mid Wales and would certainly value any opportunity to learn from others
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 2, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      John Rogers wrote:

                      > I know two Germans, Margrit Kennedy and Ludwig Schuster, engaged in
                      separate
                      > attempts to create regional energy-backed currencies, based on
                      kilowatt-hours
                      > saved or generated from renewables.

                      We have plans to develop something similar in Mid Wales and would
                      certainly value any opportunity to learn from others' experience, so ...

                      > As soon as I have more information on these efforts I will post it
                      here and at my blog.

                      ... thanks: I look forward to this.

                      John :)
                    • John Rogers
                      It goes back to purpose. What do you wish to achieve? Attention to CCs for what? Because they are a good idea? Because they make people feel good for 5
                      Message 10 of 12 , Nov 2, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        It goes back to purpose. What do you wish to achieve?

                        Attention to CCs for what? Because they are a good idea? Because they make people feel good for 5 minutes?

                        The bottom line is whether CCs are soundly designed to achieve real social and economic goals, not whether the whole world is talking about them on social networking sites as the next big fashionable thing this month.

                        I agree with you that CCs need to get out of their ghetto and into the mainstream but at the moment people are still setting them up with great enthusiasm to fail because they are badly designed and then give the whole idea a bad name.

                        If fusing CCs with Web 2.0 innovation produces mainstream attention, as you say, then I agree that, in principle, it could be a good thing. What the innovators need to develop is good methodology with attention to goals, governance and management issues. In other words, who decides what the currency is for, where is the power, and how do people change anything in the management of the currency itself? If it becomes another trick for fleecing people then it could damage the cause of CCs for another generation, when the world is crying out for sound strategies for localisation and combatting the effects of climate change and peak oil.

                        John Rogers



                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: epochonaut <epochonaut@...>
                        To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, 2 November, 2007 4:49:14 PM
                        Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: how to make alternative currencies mainstream













                        Any given currency would need some minimum amount of popularity and

                        trust before it could pass into popular use, but that's not what I'm

                        talking about. I'm talking about popularizing the general concept of

                        complementary currencies. I want it to become a Web 2.0 killer ap that

                        ignites the enthusiasm of software developers and brings their

                        considerable skills and innovation to bear on the creation of new forms

                        of money.



                        I also think that social software holds the key. Online games are just

                        one example of social software, and I don't necessarily agree that the

                        people who play them are people who need to wake up to the real world.

                        Young people are actually learning things

                        <http://www.washingt onpost.com/ wp-dyn/content/ article/2005/ 12/25/AR20051\

                        22500655.html> about economics and about leadership from playing these

                        games that most adults don't even understand. Online games can be useful

                        and informative if game developers build on that potential. At the end

                        of the day it's just another way that people socialize with each other.

                        They are responsible for balancing their social lives with the practical

                        concerns of living.



                        But I see social software as fertile ground for spreading the idea of

                        complementary currencies. They bring together anywhere from tens to

                        hundreds of millions of people. In some cases it's just to randomly

                        socialize. In other cases like Wikipedia or Youtube or Digg it's to

                        collaborate on building something through sharing. The human need to

                        connect to other people is a force in its own right. It can be used to

                        accomplish something like the popularization of a new idea.



                        I briefly alluded to a virtual currency that has already crossed the

                        line into direct monetary use. I was referring to an instant messenger

                        program in China called the QQ Messenger which has its own virtual

                        currency called the QQcoin. More than 200,000,000 Chinese use this

                        messenger program and are able to swap QQcoins with each other over the

                        net. Individuals and companies have begun to accept it as direct payment

                        for products and services. The most descriptive articles I've been able

                        to find on it are here

                        <http://online. wsj.com/public/ article/SB117519 670114653518- FR_svDHxRtxkv\

                        NmGwwpouq_hl2g_ 20080329. html> and here

                        <http://www.atimes. com/atimes/ China_Business/ HL05Cb01. html> .



                        But whether or not the 'economies' that spring up from these virtual

                        currencies are based on sound economic theory is a separate issue that

                        needs to be dealt with in its own right. I virtual currency for some

                        type of online community could function in the same way as the LETS

                        system <http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ LETS> . Or it could follow the

                        theories of Silvio Gesell <http://www.systemfe hler.de/en/ neo/> . Or it

                        could function in some other way. But I believe that by fusing

                        complementary currencies with web 2.0 innovation they can begin to

                        receive mainstream attention and consideration.



                        --- In cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com, John Rogers <atholl2003@ ...> wrote:

                        >

                        > First, let's call them 'complementary' rather than 'alternative'

                        currencies. You may think this is only a PR ruse to create credibility

                        but it worked for 'complementary' therapies, which were then seen as

                        less of a threat to mainstream healthcare than 'alternative' (which

                        doesn't have all the answers to health and wellbeing anyway) and were

                        able to become established and accepted by millions of people.

                        >

                        > Second, I agree with Tom that popularity in itself is not the goal.

                        If we could demonstrate conclusively, for instance, how CCs could give

                        people realistic strategies to offset the effects of global climate

                        change or peak oil, then CCs would begin to achieve widespread

                        credibility. Maybe I am getting old but I think the people who spend

                        their days inhabiting virtual game worlds better wake up to what's

                        happening on planet earth and do something about it with real rather

                        than virtual currency.

                        >

                        > Here are the results of some research I just came across about

                        attitudes towards climate change globally. It is striking how those in

                        the 'developing' countries, who are bearing the brunt of climate change,

                        are more awake to both the dangers and the opportunities.

                        >

                        > Check out Chris Goodall's e-newsletter at www.carboncommentar y.com.

                        >

                        > He has distilled some international market research by HSBC at

                        > www.carboncommentar y.com/2007/ 09/15/5#more- 5

                        >

                        > "HSBC's July 2007 survey entitled the Climate Confidence Index

                        > contained many surprising results. Carried out in nine major

                        countries around

                        > the world, it showed that concern about climate change is far higher

                        > in developing countries than in the UK or the USA. As importantly,

                        the

                        > inhabitants in these countries also think that the world is more

                        likely

                        > to find ways to avert climate change problems.

                        >

                        > Almost 60% of people in Brazil, Mexico and India see global warming as

                        > one of the most pressing problems the world faces, compared to little

                        > more than 20% in the UK. Broadly speaking, the richer countries tend

                        to

                        > see terrorism as a bigger threat to the world than climate change. In

                        > all nine nations bar the US, the level of concern tends to rise quite

                        > sharply with age. (This result is also seen in most other surveys of

                        UK

                        > opinion.)

                        >

                        > Confidence that climate change will be successfully addressed by

                        > existing institutions is low in most places around the world. It

                        falls to its

                        > lowest level (5%) in the UK. The UK also has the lowest level of

                        > people saying that they personally are making a significant effort to

                        reduce

                        > climate change at 19%, compared to levels above 40% in developing

                        > countries. Fatalistic Britons are also almost the most pessimistic

                        about

                        > whether global warming will be stopped, with only 6% of people saying

                        > `I believe we will stop climate change,' compared to 45% in

                        India and

                        > 39% in China. ..."

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        > The problem at the moment is that CCs are weak in governance and

                        management and there is too much ideology and not enough methodology.

                        That is why I am writing a currency design manual that attempts to

                        distill and apply the lessons of 20 years of experiments with CCs and

                        tell some of the stories about CCs to show the potential of what they

                        can do for communities and the environment.

                        >

                        >

                        > John Rogers

                        >

                        > ----- Original Message ----

                        > From: Thomas L. Wayburn <twayburn@.. .>

                        > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com

                        > Sent: Thursday, 1 November, 2007 10:30:47 PM

                        > Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: how to make alternative currencies mainstream

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        > Hello Epochnaut,

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        > I was somewhat enthusiastic about Deli Dollars and Farm Dollars in the

                        >

                        > late 80s when I heard about them because I imagined that they would

                        cut

                        >

                        > banks and governments out of the loop both of which levy a sort of tax

                        >

                        > on currency but in different ways - governments by taxes and banks by

                        >

                        > fractional reserves that create inflation. However, I do not at all

                        see

                        >

                        > what your suggestions do to promote sustainability and facilitate

                        >

                        > economic shrinkage; moreover, you have suggested the worst imaginable

                        >

                        > system of value, namely, popularity, which has no physical basis and

                        is

                        >

                        > not a measure of cost to the environment. If you must receive

                        >

                        > remuneration for what you do and give, may I suggest the scheme of

                        >

                        > establishing values elucidated in http://www.demateri alism.net/

                        cc1.htm

                        >

                        > <http://www.demateri alism.net/ cc1.htm> .

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas

                        >

                        > http://dematerialis m.net/

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        > P.S. One advantage of a give-away economy is that, if your product is

                        >

                        > not useful to anyone, you can stop producing it, if it is useful to

                        one

                        >

                        > person, you may produce one unit, which, in many cases, reduces the

                        >

                        > impact on the environment even if it is only bandwidth. I do not see,

                        >

                        > though, that it is ethical to charge a fee to use something that does

                        >

                        > not go away when you use it. That is why I embraced the copyleft idea

                        >

                        > and the Ethical Use of the Public Domain

                        >

                        > <http://www.ethicalp ublicdomain. org/index. php>.

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        > --- In cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com, "epochonaut" <epochonaut@ ...>

                        wrote:

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > I've begun discussions on various forums and blogs about a way to

                        make

                        >

                        > > alternative currencies more noticeable in popular culture. I know

                        that

                        >

                        > > the idea is floating around in the collective unconscious and I've

                        >

                        > seen

                        >

                        > > mention of it here and there, but still no major discussions. My

                        >

                        > belief

                        >

                        > > is that the market for buying virtual money from online games like

                        >

                        > > EverQuest or Ultima holds a clue as to how the alternative currency

                        >

                        > > movement can capture the public imagination. If game currency is

                        >

                        > > exchangeable for real money then it is just one step away from being

                        >

                        > > real money in its own right. In at least one case a virtual currency

                        >

                        > has

                        >

                        > > crossed that line and passed into direct monetary use. I'm

                        >

                        > considering

                        >

                        > > how to translate these virtual currencies into a form that makes

                        them

                        >

                        > > usable within other types of online communities besides virtual game

                        >

                        > > worlds. If such a currency is woven into the social fabric of a

                        major

                        >

                        > > community such as Youtube, in a way that compliments its purpose, it

                        >

                        > > will attain social value and promote itself virally. This will

                        >

                        > > eventually create a real-world demand for the currency just like it

                        >

                        > has

                        >

                        > > for online games and it will start showing up on the same websites

                        >

                        > that

                        >

                        > > facilitate the buying and selling of game money. As it becomes

                        >

                        > > increasingly popular it will begin to be used directly as a form of

                        >

                        > > currency. But the challenge is how to do this in a way that

                        >

                        > compliments

                        >

                        > > the site's purpose. The purpose is generally to provide a place for

                        >

                        > > users to freely create and share content or to enjoy the content

                        >

                        > created

                        >

                        > > by other users. This could include videos, art, music, blogs or an

                        >

                        > > evolving list of other kinds of creative works. For a community

                        based

                        >

                        > > around user generated content, virtual currency can be awarded to

                        >

                        > users

                        >

                        > > based on the quality of their content as determined by ratings and

                        >

                        > > number of viewings by other users. But that's only half the

                        problem.

                        >

                        > > They also need to be able to use it for something. What if someone

                        >

                        > > uploads a video to Youtube which becomes extremely popular and they

                        >

                        > earn

                        >

                        > > "You Dollars"? They can't trade in their You Dollars for cash unless

                        >

                        > > there is a demand. There is no demand unless You Dollars are useful

                        >

                        > for

                        >

                        > > something. Game money is useful because it lets gamers buy virtual

                        >

                        > game

                        >

                        > > items. But how would you create an equivalent demand for the You

                        >

                        > Dollar

                        >

                        > > or the Myspace Dollar or the Wikidollar while keeping the website

                        free

                        >

                        > > for everyone to use? I have some of my own ideas but they all

                        strike

                        >

                        > me

                        >

                        > > as ad hoc solutions. I'm trying to come up with something that makes

                        >

                        > > people think, "Why didn't anyone do this already? It's obvious!"

                        I've

                        >

                        > > been wracking my brains over how this might work and I'm looking for

                        >

                        > > some fresh perspectives. Any takers?

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        >

                        >

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                      • Gregory Martin
                        I believe people already know what they wish to acheive. If there were a variety of web-based CCs out there then people would naturally migrate to the ones
                        Message 11 of 12 , Nov 3, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I believe people already know what they wish to acheive. If there were a variety of web-based CCs out there then people would naturally migrate to the ones that best fall in line with their own particular goals. Competitors would be quick to pick up on this and would develop currencies that appeal to particular niche groups and social causes. But somebody needs to start somewhere.

                          Any specific CC would have to be based upon a concrete methodology of some sort, that's true. My particular project is based upon the economic theories of Silvio Gesell. Others would be based upon other methodologies. A social networking site can easily provide the tools that allow for direct democratic control of the monetary system itself. Then again, that might not be the best idea. Maybe the best solution is a combination of centralised and collective control. But how are you supposed to know except by trial and error? It's impossible to meticulously plan all of those things. That brings me to another point of yours.

                          How could a failed attempt to implement a CC give the whole idea a bad name? Just create a beta social networking site that has its own virtual currency, invite a few thousand people, and if it flops it flops. People will forget about it and move on to something more interesting. Learn from it and try again. CCs aren't going to start sticking in people's minds untill they are done right and begin to catch on, just like blogs, filesharing, wikis, folksonomies and other staples of Web 2.0. But first people have to be willing to experiment and fail.


                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: John Rogers <atholl2003@...>
                          To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 3:22:32 PM
                          Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Re: how to make alternative currencies mainstream

                          It goes back to purpose. What do you wish to achieve?

                          Attention to CCs for what? Because they are a good idea? Because they make people feel good for 5 minutes?

                          The bottom line is whether CCs are soundly designed to achieve real social and economic goals, not whether the whole world is talking about them on social networking sites as the next big fashionable thing this month.

                          I agree with you that CCs need to get out of their ghetto and into the mainstream but at the moment people are still setting them up with great enthusiasm to fail because they are badly designed and then give the whole idea a bad name.

                          If fusing CCs with Web 2.0 innovation produces mainstream attention, as you say, then I agree that, in principle, it could be a good thing. What the innovators need to develop is good methodology with attention to goals, governance and management issues. In other words, who decides what the currency is for, where is the power, and how do people change anything in the management of the currency itself? If it becomes another trick for fleecing people then it could damage the cause of CCs for another generation, when the world is crying out for sound strategies for localisation and combatting the effects of climate change and peak oil.

                          John Rogers

                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: epochonaut <epochonaut@yahoo. com>
                          To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                          Sent: Friday, 2 November, 2007 4:49:14 PM
                          Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: how to make alternative currencies mainstream

                          Any given currency would need some minimum amount of popularity and

                          trust before it could pass into popular use, but that's not what I'm

                          talking about. I'm talking about popularizing the general concept of

                          complementary currencies. I want it to become a Web 2.0 killer ap that

                          ignites the enthusiasm of software developers and brings their

                          considerable skills and innovation to bear on the creation of new forms

                          of money.

                          I also think that social software holds the key. Online games are just

                          one example of social software, and I don't necessarily agree that the

                          people who play them are people who need to wake up to the real world.

                          Young people are actually learning things

                          <http://www.washingt onpost.com/ wp-dyn/content/ article/2005/ 12/25/AR20051\

                          22500655.html> about economics and about leadership from playing these

                          games that most adults don't even understand. Online games can be useful

                          and informative if game developers build on that potential. At the end

                          of the day it's just another way that people socialize with each other.

                          They are responsible for balancing their social lives with the practical

                          concerns of living.

                          But I see social software as fertile ground for spreading the idea of

                          complementary currencies. They bring together anywhere from tens to

                          hundreds of millions of people. In some cases it's just to randomly

                          socialize. In other cases like Wikipedia or Youtube or Digg it's to

                          collaborate on building something through sharing. The human need to

                          connect to other people is a force in its own right. It can be used to

                          accomplish something like the popularization of a new idea.

                          I briefly alluded to a virtual currency that has already crossed the

                          line into direct monetary use. I was referring to an instant messenger

                          program in China called the QQ Messenger which has its own virtual

                          currency called the QQcoin. More than 200,000,000 Chinese use this

                          messenger program and are able to swap QQcoins with each other over the

                          net. Individuals and companies have begun to accept it as direct payment

                          for products and services. The most descriptive articles I've been able

                          to find on it are here

                          <http://online. wsj.com/public/ article/SB117519 670114653518- FR_svDHxRtxkv\

                          NmGwwpouq_hl2g_ 20080329. html> and here

                          <http://www.atimes.. com/atimes/ China_Business/ HL05Cb01. html> .

                          But whether or not the 'economies' that spring up from these virtual

                          currencies are based on sound economic theory is a separate issue that

                          needs to be dealt with in its own right. I virtual currency for some

                          type of online community could function in the same way as the LETS

                          system <http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ LETS> . Or it could follow the

                          theories of Silvio Gesell <http://www.systemfe hler.de/en/ neo/> . Or it

                          could function in some other way. But I believe that by fusing

                          complementary currencies with web 2.0 innovation they can begin to

                          receive mainstream attention and consideration.

                          --- In cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com, John Rogers <atholl2003@ ...> wrote:

                          >

                          > First, let's call them 'complementary' rather than 'alternative'

                          currencies. You may think this is only a PR ruse to create credibility

                          but it worked for 'complementary' therapies, which were then seen as

                          less of a threat to mainstream healthcare than 'alternative' (which

                          doesn't have all the answers to health and wellbeing anyway) and were

                          able to become established and accepted by millions of people.

                          >

                          > Second, I agree with Tom that popularity in itself is not the goal.

                          If we could demonstrate conclusively, for instance, how CCs could give

                          people realistic strategies to offset the effects of global climate

                          change or peak oil, then CCs would begin to achieve widespread

                          credibility. Maybe I am getting old but I think the people who spend

                          their days inhabiting virtual game worlds better wake up to what's

                          happening on planet earth and do something about it with real rather

                          than virtual currency.

                          >

                          > Here are the results of some research I just came across about

                          attitudes towards climate change globally. It is striking how those in

                          the 'developing' countries, who are bearing the brunt of climate change,

                          are more awake to both the dangers and the opportunities.

                          >

                          > Check out Chris Goodall's e-newsletter at www.carboncommentar y.com.

                          >

                          > He has distilled some international market research by HSBC at

                          > www.carboncommentar y.com/2007/ 09/15/5#more- 5

                          >

                          > "HSBC's July 2007 survey entitled the Climate Confidence Index

                          > contained many surprising results. Carried out in nine major

                          countries around

                          > the world, it showed that concern about climate change is far higher

                          > in developing countries than in the UK or the USA. As importantly,

                          the

                          > inhabitants in these countries also think that the world is more

                          likely

                          > to find ways to avert climate change problems.

                          >

                          > Almost 60% of people in Brazil, Mexico and India see global warming as

                          > one of the most pressing problems the world faces, compared to little

                          > more than 20% in the UK. Broadly speaking, the richer countries tend

                          to

                          > see terrorism as a bigger threat to the world than climate change. In

                          > all nine nations bar the US, the level of concern tends to rise quite

                          > sharply with age. (This result is also seen in most other surveys of

                          UK

                          > opinion.)

                          >

                          > Confidence that climate change will be successfully addressed by

                          > existing institutions is low in most places around the world. It

                          falls to its

                          > lowest level (5%) in the UK. The UK also has the lowest level of

                          > people saying that they personally are making a significant effort to

                          reduce

                          > climate change at 19%, compared to levels above 40% in developing

                          > countries. Fatalistic Britons are also almost the most pessimistic

                          about

                          > whether global warming will be stopped, with only 6% of people saying

                          > `I believe we will stop climate change,' compared to 45% in

                          India and

                          > 39% in China. ..."

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > The problem at the moment is that CCs are weak in governance and

                          management and there is too much ideology and not enough methodology.

                          That is why I am writing a currency design manual that attempts to

                          distill and apply the lessons of 20 years of experiments with CCs and

                          tell some of the stories about CCs to show the potential of what they

                          can do for communities and the environment.

                          >

                          >

                          > John Rogers

                          >

                          > ----- Original Message ----

                          > From: Thomas L. Wayburn <twayburn@.. .>

                          > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com

                          > Sent: Thursday, 1 November, 2007 10:30:47 PM

                          > Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: how to make alternative currencies mainstream

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > Hello Epochnaut,

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > I was somewhat enthusiastic about Deli Dollars and Farm Dollars in the

                          >

                          > late 80s when I heard about them because I imagined that they would

                          cut

                          >

                          > banks and governments out of the loop both of which levy a sort of tax

                          >

                          > on currency but in different ways - governments by taxes and banks by

                          >

                          > fractional reserves that create inflation. However, I do not at all

                          see

                          >

                          > what your suggestions do to promote sustainability and facilitate

                          >

                          > economic shrinkage; moreover, you have suggested the worst imaginable

                          >

                          > system of value, namely, popularity, which has no physical basis and

                          is

                          >

                          > not a measure of cost to the environment. If you must receive

                          >

                          > remuneration for what you do and give, may I suggest the scheme of

                          >

                          > establishing values elucidated in http://www.demateri alism.net/

                          cc1.htm

                          >

                          > <http://www.demateri alism.net/ cc1.htm> .

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas

                          >

                          > http://dematerialis m.net/

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > P.S. One advantage of a give-away economy is that, if your product is

                          >

                          > not useful to anyone, you can stop producing it, if it is useful to

                          one

                          >

                          > person, you may produce one unit, which, in many cases, reduces the

                          >

                          > impact on the environment even if it is only bandwidth. I do not see,

                          >

                          > though, that it is ethical to charge a fee to use something that does

                          >

                          > not go away when you use it. That is why I embraced the copyleft idea

                          >

                          > and the Ethical Use of the Public Domain

                          >

                          > <http://www.ethicalp ublicdomain. org/index. php>.

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > --- In cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com, "epochonaut" <epochonaut@ ...>

                          wrote:

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > > I've begun discussions on various forums and blogs about a way to

                          make

                          >

                          > > alternative currencies more noticeable in popular culture. I know

                          that

                          >

                          > > the idea is floating around in the collective unconscious and I've

                          >

                          > seen

                          >

                          > > mention of it here and there, but still no major discussions. My

                          >

                          > belief

                          >

                          > > is that the market for buying virtual money from online games like

                          >

                          > > EverQuest or Ultima holds a clue as to how the alternative currency

                          >

                          > > movement can capture the public imagination. If game currency is

                          >

                          > > exchangeable for real money then it is just one step away from being

                          >

                          > > real money in its own right. In at least one case a virtual currency

                          >

                          > has

                          >

                          > > crossed that line and passed into direct monetary use. I'm

                          >

                          > considering

                          >

                          > > how to translate these virtual currencies into a form that makes

                          them

                          >

                          > > usable within other types of online communities besides virtual game

                          >

                          > > worlds. If such a currency is woven into the social fabric of a

                          major

                          >

                          > > community such as Youtube, in a way that compliments its purpose, it

                          >

                          > > will attain social value and promote itself virally. This will

                          >

                          > > eventually create a real-world demand for the currency just like it

                          >

                          > has

                          >

                          > > for online games and it will start showing up on the same websites

                          >

                          > that

                          >

                          > > facilitate the buying and selling of game money. As it becomes

                          >

                          > > increasingly popular it will begin to be used directly as a form of

                          >

                          > > currency. But the challenge is how to do this in a way that

                          >

                          > compliments

                          >

                          > > the site's purpose. The purpose is generally to provide a place for

                          >

                          > > users to freely create and share content or to enjoy the content

                          >

                          > created

                          >

                          > > by other users. This could include videos, art, music, blogs or an

                          >

                          > > evolving list of other kinds of creative works. For a community

                          based

                          >

                          > > around user generated content, virtual currency can be awarded to

                          >

                          > users

                          >

                          > > based on the quality of their content as determined by ratings and

                          >

                          > > number of viewings by other users. But that's only half the

                          problem.

                          >

                          > > They also need to be able to use it for something. What if someone

                          >

                          > > uploads a video to Youtube which becomes extremely popular and they

                          >

                          > earn

                          >

                          > > "You Dollars"? They can't trade in their You Dollars for cash unless

                          >

                          > > there is a demand. There is no demand unless You Dollars are useful

                          >

                          > for

                          >

                          > > something. Game money is useful because it lets gamers buy virtual

                          >

                          > game

                          >

                          > > items. But how would you create an equivalent demand for the You

                          >

                          > Dollar

                          >

                          > > or the Myspace Dollar or the Wikidollar while keeping the website

                          free

                          >

                          > > for everyone to use? I have some of my own ideas but they all

                          strike

                          >

                          > me

                          >

                          > > as ad hoc solutions. I'm trying to come up with something that makes

                          >

                          > > people think, "Why didn't anyone do this already? It's obvious!"

                          I've

                          >

                          > > been wracking my brains over how this might work and I'm looking for

                          >

                          > > some fresh perspectives. Any takers?

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

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                          >

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                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

                          > Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer.

                          Try it

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                        • John Rogers
                          I think I may have written in haste and not expressed myself how I wished to. I agree that trial and error are necessary. I have been experimenting with CCs
                          Message 12 of 12 , Nov 4, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I think I may have written in haste and not expressed myself how I wished to.

                            I agree that trial and error are necessary. I have been experimenting with CCs for 14 years and have learned a lot. What I think is unhelpful is blind experimentation that does not learn from the experiences of others. Scientific knowledge evolves through building on the learning of others, not constantly repeating the same mistakes or unproductive lines of enquiry. Who believes in Phlogiston or Phrenology theories now? They were eliminated as useful theories because they did not stand up to the test of reality.

                            People are still setting up new CCs to fail because they are not learning the lessons about how to make things sustainable. That is why I am attempting to develop a generic written methodology in the form of a CC design manual, so that others can learn from 20 years of experiments worldwide. If we get it right, the methodology should be applicable across many different applications of CC, whatever the starting philosophy or values. My point is that we need to develop a 'design language' for CCs that is independent of favourite monetary theories, positions or mechanisms, but that allows any of those approaches to be built into a design.

                            In particular, I believe that governance and management issues are crucial to success. Who owns the CC?
                            Who makes the key decisions? Who can change it? Who manages it?

                            Think about the 'dot com boom'. Many 'businesses' were established without attention to business basics such as proper financing. People thought that a fancy website was a business model, investors rushed in and lots of people got hurt.

                            So let's experiment, let's fail, learn the lessons and make the next generation of designs more sustainable.

                            John Rogers


                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Gregory Martin <epochonaut@...>
                            To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Saturday, 3 November, 2007 8:44:36 PM
                            Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Re: how to make alternative currencies mainstream













                            I believe people already know what they wish to acheive. If there were a variety of web-based CCs out there then people would naturally migrate to the ones that best fall in line with their own particular goals. Competitors would be quick to pick up on this and would develop currencies that appeal to particular niche groups and social causes. But somebody needs to start somewhere.



                            Any specific CC would have to be based upon a concrete methodology of some sort, that's true. My particular project is based upon the economic theories of Silvio Gesell. Others would be based upon other methodologies. A social networking site can easily provide the tools that allow for direct democratic control of the monetary system itself. Then again, that might not be the best idea. Maybe the best solution is a combination of centralised and collective control. But how are you supposed to know except by trial and error? It's impossible to meticulously plan all of those things. That brings me to another point of yours.



                            How could a failed attempt to implement a CC give the whole idea a bad name? Just create a beta social networking site that has its own virtual currency, invite a few thousand people, and if it flops it flops. People will forget about it and move on to something more interesting. Learn from it and try again. CCs aren't going to start sticking in people's minds untill they are done right and begin to catch on, just like blogs, filesharing, wikis, folksonomies and other staples of Web 2.0. But first people have to be willing to experiment and fail.



                            ----- Original Message ----

                            From: John Rogers <atholl2003@yahoo. co.uk>

                            To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com

                            Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 3:22:32 PM

                            Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Re: how to make alternative currencies mainstream



                            It goes back to purpose. What do you wish to achieve?



                            Attention to CCs for what? Because they are a good idea? Because they make people feel good for 5 minutes?



                            The bottom line is whether CCs are soundly designed to achieve real social and economic goals, not whether the whole world is talking about them on social networking sites as the next big fashionable thing this month.



                            I agree with you that CCs need to get out of their ghetto and into the mainstream but at the moment people are still setting them up with great enthusiasm to fail because they are badly designed and then give the whole idea a bad name.



                            If fusing CCs with Web 2.0 innovation produces mainstream attention, as you say, then I agree that, in principle, it could be a good thing. What the innovators need to develop is good methodology with attention to goals, governance and management issues. In other words, who decides what the currency is for, where is the power, and how do people change anything in the management of the currency itself? If it becomes another trick for fleecing people then it could damage the cause of CCs for another generation, when the world is crying out for sound strategies for localisation and combatting the effects of climate change and peak oil.



                            John Rogers



                            ----- Original Message ----

                            From: epochonaut <epochonaut@ yahoo. com>

                            To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com

                            Sent: Friday, 2 November, 2007 4:49:14 PM

                            Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: how to make alternative currencies mainstream



                            Any given currency would need some minimum amount of popularity and



                            trust before it could pass into popular use, but that's not what I'm



                            talking about. I'm talking about popularizing the general concept of



                            complementary currencies. I want it to become a Web 2.0 killer ap that



                            ignites the enthusiasm of software developers and brings their



                            considerable skills and innovation to bear on the creation of new forms



                            of money.



                            I also think that social software holds the key. Online games are just



                            one example of social software, and I don't necessarily agree that the



                            people who play them are people who need to wake up to the real world.



                            Young people are actually learning things



                            <http://www.washingt onpost.com/ wp-dyn/content/ article/2005/ 12/25/AR20051\



                            22500655.html> about economics and about leadership from playing these



                            games that most adults don't even understand. Online games can be useful



                            and informative if game developers build on that potential. At the end



                            of the day it's just another way that people socialize with each other.



                            They are responsible for balancing their social lives with the practical



                            concerns of living.



                            But I see social software as fertile ground for spreading the idea of



                            complementary currencies. They bring together anywhere from tens to



                            hundreds of millions of people. In some cases it's just to randomly



                            socialize. In other cases like Wikipedia or Youtube or Digg it's to



                            collaborate on building something through sharing. The human need to



                            connect to other people is a force in its own right. It can be used to



                            accomplish something like the popularization of a new idea.



                            I briefly alluded to a virtual currency that has already crossed the



                            line into direct monetary use. I was referring to an instant messenger



                            program in China called the QQ Messenger which has its own virtual



                            currency called the QQcoin. More than 200,000,000 Chinese use this



                            messenger program and are able to swap QQcoins with each other over the



                            net. Individuals and companies have begun to accept it as direct payment



                            for products and services. The most descriptive articles I've been able



                            to find on it are here



                            <http://online. wsj.com/public/ article/SB117519 670114653518- FR_svDHxRtxkv\



                            NmGwwpouq_hl2g_ 20080329. html> and here



                            <http://www.atimes. . com/atimes/ China_Business/ HL05Cb01. html> .



                            But whether or not the 'economies' that spring up from these virtual



                            currencies are based on sound economic theory is a separate issue that



                            needs to be dealt with in its own right. I virtual currency for some



                            type of online community could function in the same way as the LETS



                            system <http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ LETS> . Or it could follow the



                            theories of Silvio Gesell <http://www.systemfe hler.de/en/ neo/> . Or it



                            could function in some other way. But I believe that by fusing



                            complementary currencies with web 2.0 innovation they can begin to



                            receive mainstream attention and consideration.



                            --- In cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com, John Rogers <atholl2003@ ...> wrote:



                            >



                            > First, let's call them 'complementary' rather than 'alternative'



                            currencies. You may think this is only a PR ruse to create credibility



                            but it worked for 'complementary' therapies, which were then seen as



                            less of a threat to mainstream healthcare than 'alternative' (which



                            doesn't have all the answers to health and wellbeing anyway) and were



                            able to become established and accepted by millions of people.



                            >



                            > Second, I agree with Tom that popularity in itself is not the goal.



                            If we could demonstrate conclusively, for instance, how CCs could give



                            people realistic strategies to offset the effects of global climate



                            change or peak oil, then CCs would begin to achieve widespread



                            credibility. Maybe I am getting old but I think the people who spend



                            their days inhabiting virtual game worlds better wake up to what's



                            happening on planet earth and do something about it with real rather



                            than virtual currency.



                            >



                            > Here are the results of some research I just came across about



                            attitudes towards climate change globally. It is striking how those in



                            the 'developing' countries, who are bearing the brunt of climate change,



                            are more awake to both the dangers and the opportunities.



                            >



                            > Check out Chris Goodall's e-newsletter at www.carboncommentar y.com.



                            >



                            > He has distilled some international market research by HSBC at



                            > www.carboncommentar y.com/2007/ 09/15/5#more- 5



                            >



                            > "HSBC's July 2007 survey entitled the Climate Confidence Index



                            > contained many surprising results. Carried out in nine major



                            countries around



                            > the world, it showed that concern about climate change is far higher



                            > in developing countries than in the UK or the USA. As importantly,



                            the



                            > inhabitants in these countries also think that the world is more



                            likely



                            > to find ways to avert climate change problems.



                            >



                            > Almost 60% of people in Brazil, Mexico and India see global warming as



                            > one of the most pressing problems the world faces, compared to little



                            > more than 20% in the UK. Broadly speaking, the richer countries tend



                            to



                            > see terrorism as a bigger threat to the world than climate change. In



                            > all nine nations bar the US, the level of concern tends to rise quite



                            > sharply with age. (This result is also seen in most other surveys of



                            UK



                            > opinion.)



                            >



                            > Confidence that climate change will be successfully addressed by



                            > existing institutions is low in most places around the world. It



                            falls to its



                            > lowest level (5%) in the UK. The UK also has the lowest level of



                            > people saying that they personally are making a significant effort to



                            reduce



                            > climate change at 19%, compared to levels above 40% in developing



                            > countries. Fatalistic Britons are also almost the most pessimistic



                            about



                            > whether global warming will be stopped, with only 6% of people saying



                            > `I believe we will stop climate change,' compared to 45% in



                            India and



                            > 39% in China. ..."



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            > The problem at the moment is that CCs are weak in governance and



                            management and there is too much ideology and not enough methodology.



                            That is why I am writing a currency design manual that attempts to



                            distill and apply the lessons of 20 years of experiments with CCs and



                            tell some of the stories about CCs to show the potential of what they



                            can do for communities and the environment.



                            >



                            >



                            > John Rogers



                            >



                            > ----- Original Message ----



                            > From: Thomas L. Wayburn <twayburn@.. .>



                            > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com



                            > Sent: Thursday, 1 November, 2007 10:30:47 PM



                            > Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: how to make alternative currencies mainstream



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            > Hello Epochnaut,



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            > I was somewhat enthusiastic about Deli Dollars and Farm Dollars in the



                            >



                            > late 80s when I heard about them because I imagined that they would



                            cut



                            >



                            > banks and governments out of the loop both of which levy a sort of tax



                            >



                            > on currency but in different ways - governments by taxes and banks by



                            >



                            > fractional reserves that create inflation. However, I do not at all



                            see



                            >



                            > what your suggestions do to promote sustainability and facilitate



                            >



                            > economic shrinkage; moreover, you have suggested the worst imaginable



                            >



                            > system of value, namely, popularity, which has no physical basis and



                            is



                            >



                            > not a measure of cost to the environment. If you must receive



                            >



                            > remuneration for what you do and give, may I suggest the scheme of



                            >



                            > establishing values elucidated in http://www.demateri alism.net/



                            cc1.htm



                            >



                            > <http://www.demateri alism.net/ cc1.htm> .



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas



                            >



                            > http://dematerialis m.net/



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            > P.S. One advantage of a give-away economy is that, if your product is



                            >



                            > not useful to anyone, you can stop producing it, if it is useful to



                            one



                            >



                            > person, you may produce one unit, which, in many cases, reduces the



                            >



                            > impact on the environment even if it is only bandwidth. I do not see,



                            >



                            > though, that it is ethical to charge a fee to use something that does



                            >



                            > not go away when you use it. That is why I embraced the copyleft idea



                            >



                            > and the Ethical Use of the Public Domain



                            >



                            > <http://www.ethicalp ublicdomain. org/index. php>.



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            > --- In cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com, "epochonaut" <epochonaut@ ...>



                            wrote:



                            >



                            > >



                            >



                            > > I've begun discussions on various forums and blogs about a way to



                            make



                            >



                            > > alternative currencies more noticeable in popular culture. I know



                            that



                            >



                            > > the idea is floating around in the collective unconscious and I've



                            >



                            > seen



                            >



                            > > mention of it here and there, but still no major discussions. My



                            >



                            > belief



                            >



                            > > is that the market for buying virtual money from online games like



                            >



                            > > EverQuest or Ultima holds a clue as to how the alternative currency



                            >



                            > > movement can capture the public imagination. If game currency is



                            >



                            > > exchangeable for real money then it is just one step away from being



                            >



                            > > real money in its own right. In at least one case a virtual currency



                            >



                            > has



                            >



                            > > crossed that line and passed into direct monetary use. I'm



                            >



                            > considering



                            >



                            > > how to translate these virtual currencies into a form that makes



                            them



                            >



                            > > usable within other types of online communities besides virtual game



                            >



                            > > worlds. If such a currency is woven into the social fabric of a



                            major



                            >



                            > > community such as Youtube, in a way that compliments its purpose, it



                            >



                            > > will attain social value and promote itself virally. This will



                            >



                            > > eventually create a real-world demand for the currency just like it



                            >



                            > has



                            >



                            > > for online games and it will start showing up on the same websites



                            >



                            > that



                            >



                            > > facilitate the buying and selling of game money. As it becomes



                            >



                            > > increasingly popular it will begin to be used directly as a form of



                            >



                            > > currency. But the challenge is how to do this in a way that



                            >



                            > compliments



                            >



                            > > the site's purpose. The purpose is generally to provide a place for



                            >



                            > > users to freely create and share content or to enjoy the content



                            >



                            > created



                            >



                            > > by other users. This could include videos, art, music, blogs or an



                            >



                            > > evolving list of other kinds of creative works. For a community



                            based



                            >



                            > > around user generated content, virtual currency can be awarded to



                            >



                            > users



                            >



                            > > based on the quality of their content as determined by ratings and



                            >



                            > > number of viewings by other users. But that's only half the



                            problem.



                            >



                            > > They also need to be able to use it for something. What if someone



                            >



                            > > uploads a video to Youtube which becomes extremely popular and they



                            >



                            > earn



                            >



                            > > "You Dollars"? They can't trade in their You Dollars for cash unless



                            >



                            > > there is a demand. There is no demand unless You Dollars are useful



                            >



                            > for



                            >



                            > > something. Game money is useful because it lets gamers buy virtual



                            >



                            > game



                            >



                            > > items. But how would you create an equivalent demand for the You



                            >



                            > Dollar



                            >



                            > > or the Myspace Dollar or the Wikidollar while keeping the website



                            free



                            >



                            > > for everyone to use? I have some of my own ideas but they all



                            strike



                            >



                            > me



                            >



                            > > as ad hoc solutions. I'm trying to come up with something that makes



                            >



                            > > people think, "Why didn't anyone do this already? It's obvious!"



                            I've



                            >



                            > > been wracking my brains over how this might work and I'm looking for



                            >



                            > > some fresh perspectives. Any takers?



                            >



                            > >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



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                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            >



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                            font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;}
                            #ygrp-ft{
                            font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666;
                            padding:5px 0;
                            }
                            #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
                            padding-bottom:10px;}

                            #ygrp-vital{
                            background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}
                            #ygrp-vital #vithd{
                            font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:uppercase;}
                            #ygrp-vital ul{
                            padding:0;margin:2px 0;}
                            #ygrp-vital ul li{
                            list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee;
                            }
                            #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
                            font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-right:.5em;}
                            #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
                            font-weight:bold;}
                            #ygrp-vital a{
                            text-decoration:none;}

                            #ygrp-vital a:hover{
                            text-decoration:underline;}

                            #ygrp-sponsor #hd{
                            color:#999;font-size:77%;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor #ov{
                            padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
                            padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
                            list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
                            text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor #nc{
                            background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor .ad{
                            padding:8px 0;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
                            font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
                            text-decoration:none;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
                            text-decoration:underline;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
                            margin:0;}
                            o{font-size:0;}
                            .MsoNormal{
                            margin:0 0 0 0;}
                            #ygrp-text tt{
                            font-size:120%;}
                            blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;}
                            .replbq{margin:4;}
                            -->








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