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Re: [cyfranogi] Steve Bosserman, good to hear from you!

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  • Tom Wayburn
    Andrius, I have gone to a lot of trouble to show arithmetically that business, markets, buying and selling, the profit motive are inconsistent with
    Message 1 of 27 , Aug 19, 2006
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      Andrius,

      I have gone to a lot of trouble to show arithmetically that business, markets, buying and selling, the profit motive are inconsistent with sustainability. I understand that not everyone on this list can afford to forego earning money; however, all of us should be aware that most things we do to earn money set back the cause of sustainability in one way or another and eventually must be rejected by a society that hopes to avoid a massive die-off. I get tired of pointing out the papers and computational studies I have already finished that prove these points. I continue work on the Mark II Economy to produce an educational tool that might be used or improved upon to create a wider understanding of the types of political changes that sustainability requires.

      Tom

      Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@...> wrote:
      This week I heard back from Steve Bosserman. Yesterday we spoke. I
      share my notes. Steve is a consultant in agriculture, knowledge and
      management, see his blog "Diary of a Knowledge Broker"
      http://www.communicationagents.com/steve_bosserman/ His expertise was
      essential to the success of our chocolate project for Greg Wolff of
      Chocolate Dividends.

      Steve and I spoke how he might participate as a mentor at our lab. He's
      very impressed by the examples of open growth that Jeff Buderer and
      Markus Petz are showing us all. Steve is also exploring business
      avenues that our lab might pursue. And he will help us bring our
      activity to our wikis, especially http://www.findbetterways.info

      Steve's key concept is "Social justice". He's interested in
      "integration" of all inputs and outputs at a locality, particularly in
      four areas:
      * Food safety
      * Fuel
      * Community
      * Air-Water-Soil quality
      Perhaps there is overlap with Jeff's work and with Graham Douglas's
      "integrity"?

      Steve notes three stages in solutions for sustainability:
      1) Convincing people, having them understand that we can have a
      sustainable lifestyle that is attractive and comfortable.
      2) Help people access the information resources that they need in order
      to make various decisions.
      3) Make it easy for people to find the practitioners who can provide the
      relevant services.

      These clearly suggest different kinds of knowledge systems. Perhaps
      "pattern languages" can show us the recurring activities that would make
      up our lives in step 1. And a "social ping" system for helping us find
      work or get workers, as we'll design with Thomas Kalka, may help us with
      step 3, as might a community currency. Note that we have a working
      group on "New Craft" in German led by Christine Ax.

      Together these would make sustainablity convenient, and thus
      successful. The current world that we live in is in many ways driven by
      convenience.

      Steve also showed how to bridge Jeff's interests in a proposal writing
      system with my interests in understanding what we truly want to do.
      Indeed, the two are related by a series of stages:
      * First, it's vital that each of us know and state what we truly would
      like to do, and how we might use resources if they existed.
      * Then, it's good to analyze and support what we want to do by making it
      concrete with relevant facts, measures, figures, budgets, impacts.
      * Next, we can identify what is most immediate and start work on that
      with the few resources that we do have.
      * Also, we can be alert to funding possibilities and combine our
      proposals accordingly.
      * Finally, we can cater our proposals to the opportunities and write
      them so that we have the greatest chance of winning while staying true
      to our goals.

      In a sense, we have already been doing this, and we can keep improving
      this process. Would this fit with your vision, Jeff?

      Steve, it was great talking! I'm excited what you'll help us
      accomplish! I also look forward to your letters on your plan of
      investigation, what and how. And I invite us all to consider working
      with Steve as your mentor. I am interested to learn from such
      experiences so that we might write an Investigator's Handbook for our
      participants. That would help us spread our activity in other languages.

      I share Steve's letters below. We also practiced using the wiki. These
      coming months I hope to work with more of us to learn how to use it, to
      understand how to organize it for our needs, and to work with Helmut to
      pinpoint bugs (we're using a special beta version) and perfect the
      functionality.

      Andrius

      Andrius Kulikauskas
      Minciu Sodas
      http://www.ms.lt
      ms@...
      +370 (699) 30003
      Vilnius, Lithuania

      ----------------------------------------------------------
      Staying in Touch, Getting Reconnected, Being Useful...
      ----------------------------------------------------------

      Dear Andrius,

      Thank you so much for checking in with me across the summer. I apologize
      for being so out of pocket this year. It has been one filled with many
      "opportunities" that drain my time and energy although they have more than
      satisfied my intellectual curiosity and sense of purposefulness.

      Unfortunately, while rewarding on several levels, it has taken me away from
      my interests in what is going on in your world. Reading the postings
      indicates that there is quite a bit going on and VERY worthwhile, indeed.
      Your recent notes indicate you are in the process of planning next steps for
      the lab. If a Skype conversation or chat would be of use to you, I would be
      delighted to make myself available. The balance of this week is fairly
      flexible, next week I am on the road again, and the week after that is also
      open. Just let me know what works for you.

      Looking forward to getting reconnected...

      Warm regards,

      Steve B.

      ----------------------------------------------------------

      Hi Andrius,

      I would like to post content on this site you have set up,
      http://www.ourculture.info/wiki.cgi?SteveBosserman, but I don't know how to
      proceed once I am there. Do I need to get a username and password and login
      before I can work with the page? Also, if I follow the page creation
      guidance in "starting points" will that be sufficient to make postings or do
      I need other references? Sorry to be such a bother and I thank you in
      advance for your help.

      Best regards,

      Steve B.





      Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
      Blog: http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/
      Website: http://dematerialism.net/
      Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post: twayburn@...
      If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to twayburn@... .





      ---------------------------------
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      Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Steve Bosserman
      Hi Tom, In reading your treatise about dematerialism, your deep analysis shows a profound level of commitment to giving the issues surrounding our choices
      Message 2 of 27 , Aug 26, 2006
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        Hi Tom,



        In reading your treatise about "dematerialism," your deep analysis shows a
        profound level of commitment to giving the issues surrounding our choices
        about what, how much, and in what way we consume a very thorough
        investigation. However, this prompts a question. It is my impression that
        you are associating the use of fossil fuel (heading toward inevitable
        depletion and polluting the environment more and more along the way), with
        consumption (unchecked materialism), and commerce (in this case, the
        confluence of capitalism, finance, and industry spurring unnecessary
        competition, wastefulness of natural and human resources, and greediness to
        accumulate excessive wealth at the expense of countless others). If my
        understanding is correct, under what conditions would we be living now if,
        through some miracle of development 300 years ago, our energy needs had been
        and continue to be met by solar power (as an example) in lieu of fossil
        fuel? To ask the question another way, is it your opinion that the
        phenomena of consumption and commerce as experienced today are the
        inevitable outcomes of flawed systems that doom us to destruction
        irrespective of the energy source used to drive technological advancement OR
        did the use of fossil fuel distort the functionality of plausible systems to
        behave in undesirable ways? This may be covered in your paper, but if so, I
        missed it. Thanks in advance for your consideration.



        Best regards,



        Steve B.



        _____

        From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of Tom Wayburn
        Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 10:39 PM
        To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Steve Bosserman, good to hear from you!



        Andrius,

        I have gone to a lot of trouble to show arithmetically that business,
        markets, buying and selling, the profit motive are inconsistent with
        sustainability. I understand that not everyone on this list can afford to
        forego earning money; however, all of us should be aware that most things we
        do to earn money set back the cause of sustainability in one way or another
        and eventually must be rejected by a society that hopes to avoid a massive
        die-off. I get tired of pointing out the papers and computational studies I
        have already finished that prove these points. I continue work on the Mark
        II Economy to produce an educational tool that might be used or improved
        upon to create a wider understanding of the types of political changes that
        sustainability requires.

        Tom






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tom Wayburn
        Thanks, Steve, for looking at my work. Clearly, a model of acquisitiveness, consumption, and economic growth cannot be sustained in a finite world. Many
        Message 3 of 27 , Aug 26, 2006
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          Thanks, Steve, for looking at my work. Clearly, a model of acquisitiveness, consumption, and economic growth cannot be sustained in a finite world. Many writers have discussed the immorality of a system that is based upon greed and fear. It is not just that many will do anything for profit; but, for most others, if they do not do whatever they can, they will perish. Therefore, if capitalism had been based upon an unlimited sustainable energy source - or virtually unlimited if, for example, we could harvest all of the 185,000 terrawatts radiating the earth from the sun - we would still be in enormous difficulties of a moral nature even supposing we could escape the earth whose large distances from other habitable planets constitutes a sort of quarantine of man's corrupted nature from contact with other sentient beings who might suffer immeasurably from contact with human beings.


          In Chapter 2 of my book I made an outline of some of the likely effects of a plentiful energy scenario:

          from http://dematerialism.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170713

          Drawbacks and Advantages of a Large Energy Budget
          It is not necessary to prove that every technology capable of supplying plentiful high-grade energy must fail. It is clear that plentiful energy would not be a blessing in a materialistic world. When I was first told of cold fusion, I hoped it would turn out to be a failure. The first thing that popped into my head was traffic on the interstates multiplied a hundred-fold all over the globe. Do we really want to turn the world into Loop 610?


          On the other hand, in a cooperative world, (I have claimed) energy would be used wisely as there would be no incentive to use it selfishly and stupidly. (You see; I, too, make use of incentive arguments that presume some knowledge of human nature. I claim that the knowledge I profess has a better basis in fact than theories that deny intrinsic motivation. After all, I am claiming only what everyone believes. We have never given intrinsic motivation a chance, but we can see for ourselves – even feel for ourselves – the power of intrinsic motivation when it is allowed to function.)


          For a change, I shall present only an outline of the drawbacks and advantages of a plentiful (high-grade) energy budget – even though I believe that, unless the population be reduced considerably, energy shall continue to be scarce. Thus, I haven’t much hope for a large population; however, a small population might encounter serious obstacles too. Perhaps a small population would have difficulty harvesting even a large supply of biomass and scarcity would persist. As far as those large readily available fossil-fuel reserves are concerned, soon they shall be gone forever.


          Outline of Likely Effects of a Plentiful Energy Budget under Contrasting Social Conditions


          I. Wrongful Use ( competition for wealth and power)
          A. Health risk and discomfort
          1. chemical and radiative pollution
          2. space pollution (junk in outer space)
          3. noise
          4. light pollution (we can’t see the stars, which is all we wanted of them)
          5. information pollution (lies, propaganda, drivel)
          6. excessive motion leading to stress
          7. crowding
          8. disappearance of wilderness
          9. extinctions of species
          10. population growth
          11. ugliness
          12. urbanization
          a. garbage
          b. sewage
          13. crime
          14. insanity
          15. etc.
          B. Useless consumer products and deceptive marketing
          C. More junkpiles and less space
          D. Wasted effort
          E. Unpleasant jobs
          F. CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH AND POWER
          G. TOTALITARIANISM
          H. WAR
          II. Proper Uses (cooperation)
          A. Population control
          B. Pollution control
          1. Purification of all waste streams
          2. Separation and recycle of all junk
          C. Decentralization (deurbanization)
          D. Mass communication
          E. Equality of wealth, power, and fame
          F. Abundant living without excessive work, perhaps none for people who hate work. Of course, many people will work on personal projects interesting to themselves only, one of which might save the world in some easily imagined scenario.
          G. Etc.


          [Note in proof (1-26-97). Even supposing that we have abandoned materialism, an excessively lavish emergy supply will only make it harder to abide by the spirit and the letter of the social contract derived from our minimal proper religion. Overconsumption and population growth might be hard to resist. Nevertheless, in keeping with the view of humanity that, in Chapter 4 of this essay, is assumed to be a good enough approximation to the correct view, I shall continue to trust humanity to do the right thing. Undoubtedly, this point is moot as emergy will always be scarce. In case it turns out that I am wrong, I hope future generations forgive my lack of prescience, as I forgive past and present generations who can’t read the future or who can’t see the world as it actually is. Remember, many of you have acted (or continue to act) unwisely; however, I will have acted prudently. It is better to have planned for a calamity that doesn’t occur than not to have prepared
          for one that does!]

          [end of selection from Chapter 2]

          I hope this helps to clarify my position.

          Best regards,
          Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas


          Steve Bosserman <stevebosserman@...> wrote:
          Hi Tom,

          In reading your treatise about "dematerialism," your deep analysis shows a
          profound level of commitment to giving the issues surrounding our choices
          about what, how much, and in what way we consume a very thorough
          investigation. However, this prompts a question. It is my impression that
          you are associating the use of fossil fuel (heading toward inevitable
          depletion and polluting the environment more and more along the way), with
          consumption (unchecked materialism), and commerce (in this case, the
          confluence of capitalism, finance, and industry spurring unnecessary
          competition, wastefulness of natural and human resources, and greediness to
          accumulate excessive wealth at the expense of countless others). If my
          understanding is correct, under what conditions would we be living now if,
          through some miracle of development 300 years ago, our energy needs had been
          and continue to be met by solar power (as an example) in lieu of fossil
          fuel? To ask the question another way, is it your opinion that the
          phenomena of consumption and commerce as experienced today are the
          inevitable outcomes of flawed systems that doom us to destruction
          irrespective of the energy source used to drive technological advancement OR
          did the use of fossil fuel distort the functionality of plausible systems to
          behave in undesirable ways? This may be covered in your paper, but if so, I
          missed it. Thanks in advance for your consideration.

          Best regards,

          Steve B.

          _____

          From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of Tom Wayburn
          Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 10:39 PM
          To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Steve Bosserman, good to hear from you!

          Andrius,

          I have gone to a lot of trouble to show arithmetically that business,
          markets, buying and selling, the profit motive are inconsistent with
          sustainability. I understand that not everyone on this list can afford to
          forego earning money; however, all of us should be aware that most things we
          do to earn money set back the cause of sustainability in one way or another
          and eventually must be rejected by a society that hopes to avoid a massive
          die-off. I get tired of pointing out the papers and computational studies I
          have already finished that prove these points. I continue work on the Mark
          II Economy to produce an educational tool that might be used or improved
          upon to create a wider understanding of the types of political changes that
          sustainability requires.

          Tom

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






          Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
          Blog: http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/
          Website: http://dematerialism.net/
          Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post: twayburn@...
          If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to twayburn@... .





          ---------------------------------
          Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Steve Bosserman
          Hi Tom, Thanks for your quick response. If I am following your logic, it appears that humanity has a treacherous path ahead regardless of how plentiful and
          Message 4 of 27 , Aug 27, 2006
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            Hi Tom,



            Thanks for your quick response. If I am following your logic, it appears
            that humanity has a treacherous path ahead regardless of how plentiful and
            benign the energy. This difficulty is due to the “immorality” of various
            systems we humans have put in place to “manage” behavior. Scarcity spawns
            fear and greed. This creates an enormous opportunity for those who are
            unabashed at using fear to their advantage. Indeed, they are loath to
            change the rules.



            Some suggest that cooperation engenders a sense of abundance, but as you
            mention there may very well not be enough to go around whether motivation is
            cooperative or competitive. Nonetheless, the more scarcity the more people
            are driven by their instincts to perpetuate the species and the more the
            human population grows. In addition, people whose survival is at risk leave
            where they are and migrate elsewhere to seek relief. More often than not,
            their destination is an urban area that is already over-burdened and
            maladaptive. In many instances their circumstances are made worse—and the
            world loses.



            This suggests that to reduce the perception that unchecked scarcity reigns
            supreme lessens the pressure to propagate, which slows population growth and
            migration—and the world benefits. Inculcating people in the ways of
            cooperation is a very powerful approach in creating that impression. How to
            do that, though, is quite a challenge.



            Each of us engages in the battle against the threat of scarcity on multiple
            fronts: personally, locally, and globally. The arena of meaningful action
            is quite extensive. It is clear you have considerable experience fighting
            the good fight for a more cooperative existence beyond exhorting others to
            do so. What works for you? How do you carry your thinking into purposeful
            action in your life at home, in the Houston area (number two in urban sprawl
            in the USA), and in the larger domains of national and international
            politics? What vulnerabilities do you see in the current system that can be
            readily exploited?



            Thanks in advance for your response. There are several ways I have in mind
            to apply your work in turning the dial of cooperation, but I would rather
            hear what you are doing so that what I might propose is aligned rather than
            oblique. Looking forward to it!



            Best regards,



            Steve B.



            _____

            From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of Tom Wayburn
            Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 5:27 PM
            To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Fossil Fuel, Consumption, and Commerce



            Thanks, Steve, for looking at my work. Clearly, a model of acquisitiveness,
            consumption, and economic growth cannot be sustained in a finite world. Many
            writers have discussed the immorality of a system that is based upon greed
            and fear. It is not just that many will do anything for profit; but, for
            most others, if they do not do whatever they can, they will perish.
            Therefore, if capitalism had been based upon an unlimited sustainable energy
            source - or virtually unlimited if, for example, we could harvest all of the
            185,000 terrawatts radiating the earth from the sun - we would still be in
            enormous difficulties of a moral nature even supposing we could escape the
            earth whose large distances from other habitable planets constitutes a sort
            of quarantine of man's corrupted nature from contact with other sentient
            beings who might suffer immeasurably from contact with human beings.


            In Chapter 2 of my book I made an outline of some of the likely effects of a
            plentiful energy scenario:

            from http://dematerialis
            <http://dematerialism.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170713>
            m.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170713

            Drawbacks and Advantages of a Large Energy Budget
            It is not necessary to prove that every technology capable of supplying
            plentiful high-grade energy must fail. It is clear that plentiful energy
            would not be a blessing in a materialistic world. When I was first told of
            cold fusion, I hoped it would turn out to be a failure. The first thing that
            popped into my head was traffic on the interstates multiplied a hundred-fold
            all over the globe. Do we really want to turn the world into Loop 610?


            On the other hand, in a cooperative world, (I have claimed) energy would be
            used wisely as there would be no incentive to use it selfishly and stupidly.
            (You see; I, too, make use of incentive arguments that presume some
            knowledge of human nature. I claim that the knowledge I profess has a better
            basis in fact than theories that deny intrinsic motivation. After all, I am
            claiming only what everyone believes. We have never given intrinsic
            motivation a chance, but we can see for ourselves – even feel for ourselves
            – the power of intrinsic motivation when it is allowed to function.)


            For a change, I shall present only an outline of the drawbacks and
            advantages of a plentiful (high-grade) energy budget – even though I believe
            that, unless the population be reduced considerably, energy shall continue
            to be scarce. Thus, I haven’t much hope for a large population; however, a
            small population might encounter serious obstacles too. Perhaps a small
            population would have difficulty harvesting even a large supply of biomass
            and scarcity would persist. As far as those large readily available
            fossil-fuel reserves are concerned, soon they shall be gone forever.


            Outline of Likely Effects of a Plentiful Energy Budget under Contrasting
            Social Conditions


            I. Wrongful Use ( competition for wealth and power)
            A. Health risk and discomfort
            1. chemical and radiative pollution
            2. space pollution (junk in outer space)
            3. noise
            4. light pollution (we can’t see the stars, which is all we wanted of them)
            5. information pollution (lies, propaganda, drivel)
            6. excessive motion leading to stress
            7. crowding
            8. disappearance of wilderness
            9. extinctions of species
            10. population growth
            11. ugliness
            12. urbanization
            a. garbage
            b. sewage
            13. crime
            14. insanity
            15. etc.
            B. Useless consumer products and deceptive marketing
            C. More junkpiles and less space
            D. Wasted effort
            E. Unpleasant jobs
            F. CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH AND POWER
            G. TOTALITARIANISM
            H. WAR
            II. Proper Uses (cooperation)
            A. Population control
            B. Pollution control
            1. Purification of all waste streams
            2. Separation and recycle of all junk
            C. Decentralization (deurbanization)
            D. Mass communication
            E. Equality of wealth, power, and fame
            F. Abundant living without excessive work, perhaps none for people who hate
            work. Of course, many people will work on personal projects interesting to
            themselves only, one of which might save the world in some easily imagined
            scenario.
            G. Etc.


            [Note in proof (1-26-97). Even supposing that we have abandoned materialism,
            an excessively lavish emergy supply will only make it harder to abide by the
            spirit and the letter of the social contract derived from our minimal proper
            religion. Overconsumption and population growth might be hard to resist.
            Nevertheless, in keeping with the view of humanity that, in Chapter 4 of
            this essay, is assumed to be a good enough approximation to the correct
            view, I shall continue to trust humanity to do the right thing. Undoubtedly,
            this point is moot as emergy will always be scarce. In case it turns out
            that I am wrong, I hope future generations forgive my lack of prescience, as
            I forgive past and present generations who can’t read the future or who
            can’t see the world as it actually is. Remember, many of you have acted (or
            continue to act) unwisely; however, I will have acted prudently. It is
            better to have planned for a calamity that doesn’t occur than not to have
            prepared
            for one that does!]

            [end of selection from Chapter 2]

            I hope this helps to clarify my position.

            Best regards,
            Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas


            Steve Bosserman <stevebosserman@ <mailto:stevebosserman%40yahoo.com>
            yahoo.com> wrote:
            Hi Tom,

            In reading your treatise about "dematerialism," your deep analysis shows a
            profound level of commitment to giving the issues surrounding our choices
            about what, how much, and in what way we consume a very thorough
            investigation. However, this prompts a question. It is my impression that
            you are associating the use of fossil fuel (heading toward inevitable
            depletion and polluting the environment more and more along the way), with
            consumption (unchecked materialism), and commerce (in this case, the
            confluence of capitalism, finance, and industry spurring unnecessary
            competition, wastefulness of natural and human resources, and greediness to
            accumulate excessive wealth at the expense of countless others). If my
            understanding is correct, under what conditions would we be living now if,
            through some miracle of development 300 years ago, our energy needs had been
            and continue to be met by solar power (as an example) in lieu of fossil
            fuel? To ask the question another way, is it your opinion that the
            phenomena of consumption and commerce as experienced today are the
            inevitable outcomes of flawed systems that doom us to destruction
            irrespective of the energy source used to drive technological advancement OR
            did the use of fossil fuel distort the functionality of plausible systems to
            behave in undesirable ways? This may be covered in your paper, but if so, I
            missed it. Thanks in advance for your consideration.

            Best regards,

            Steve B.

            _____

            From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
            [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] On
            Behalf
            Of Tom Wayburn
            Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 10:39 PM
            To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
            Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Steve Bosserman, good to hear from you!

            Andrius,

            I have gone to a lot of trouble to show arithmetically that business,
            markets, buying and selling, the profit motive are inconsistent with
            sustainability. I understand that not everyone on this list can afford to
            forego earning money; however, all of us should be aware that most things we
            do to earn money set back the cause of sustainability in one way or another
            and eventually must be rejected by a society that hopes to avoid a massive
            die-off. I get tired of pointing out the papers and computational studies I
            have already finished that prove these points. I continue work on the Mark
            II Economy to produce an educational tool that might be used or improved
            upon to create a wider understanding of the types of political changes that
            sustainability requires.

            Tom

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
            Blog: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/>
            m.blogspot.com/
            Website: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/
            Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post:
            twayburn@wt. <mailto:twayburn%40wt.net> net
            If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to twayburn@yahoo.
            <mailto:twayburn%40yahoo.com> com .



            ---------------------------------
            Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
            starting at 1¢/min.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Tom Wayburn
            Steve, I ll need a little time to consider your remarks and just now I have to do something for my family. I just wanted to say that, despite the obvious
            Message 5 of 27 , Aug 27, 2006
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              Steve,

              I'll need a little time to consider your remarks and just now I have to do something for my family. I just wanted to say that, despite the obvious pressure on population due to scarcity, people may not curtail procreation intentionally; however, the population truly grows when there is abundance, which is always experienced as infinitude at the gut level. For example, the green revolution saddled the world with the large human population that it must now endure and which may be culled in the wake of Peak Oil.

              I didn't say that well, but I'll try again later.

              Tom


              Steve Bosserman <stevebosserman@...> wrote:
              Hi Tom,

              Thanks for your quick response. If I am following your logic, it appears
              that humanity has a treacherous path ahead regardless of how plentiful and
              benign the energy. This difficulty is due to the “immorality” of various
              systems we humans have put in place to “manage” behavior. Scarcity spawns
              fear and greed. This creates an enormous opportunity for those who are
              unabashed at using fear to their advantage. Indeed, they are loath to
              change the rules.

              Some suggest that cooperation engenders a sense of abundance, but as you
              mention there may very well not be enough to go around whether motivation is
              cooperative or competitive. Nonetheless, the more scarcity the more people
              are driven by their instincts to perpetuate the species and the more the
              human population grows. In addition, people whose survival is at risk leave
              where they are and migrate elsewhere to seek relief. More often than not,
              their destination is an urban area that is already over-burdened and
              maladaptive. In many instances their circumstances are made worse—and the
              world loses.

              This suggests that to reduce the perception that unchecked scarcity reigns
              supreme lessens the pressure to propagate, which slows population growth and
              migration—and the world benefits. Inculcating people in the ways of
              cooperation is a very powerful approach in creating that impression. How to
              do that, though, is quite a challenge.

              Each of us engages in the battle against the threat of scarcity on multiple
              fronts: personally, locally, and globally. The arena of meaningful action
              is quite extensive. It is clear you have considerable experience fighting
              the good fight for a more cooperative existence beyond exhorting others to
              do so. What works for you? How do you carry your thinking into purposeful
              action in your life at home, in the Houston area (number two in urban sprawl
              in the USA), and in the larger domains of national and international
              politics? What vulnerabilities do you see in the current system that can be
              readily exploited?

              Thanks in advance for your response. There are several ways I have in mind
              to apply your work in turning the dial of cooperation, but I would rather
              hear what you are doing so that what I might propose is aligned rather than
              oblique. Looking forward to it!

              Best regards,

              Steve B.

              _____

              From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of Tom Wayburn
              Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 5:27 PM
              To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Fossil Fuel, Consumption, and Commerce

              Thanks, Steve, for looking at my work. Clearly, a model of acquisitiveness,
              consumption, and economic growth cannot be sustained in a finite world. Many
              writers have discussed the immorality of a system that is based upon greed
              and fear. It is not just that many will do anything for profit; but, for
              most others, if they do not do whatever they can, they will perish.
              Therefore, if capitalism had been based upon an unlimited sustainable energy
              source - or virtually unlimited if, for example, we could harvest all of the
              185,000 terrawatts radiating the earth from the sun - we would still be in
              enormous difficulties of a moral nature even supposing we could escape the
              earth whose large distances from other habitable planets constitutes a sort
              of quarantine of man's corrupted nature from contact with other sentient
              beings who might suffer immeasurably from contact with human beings.

              In Chapter 2 of my book I made an outline of some of the likely effects of a
              plentiful energy scenario:

              from http://dematerialis
              <http://dematerialism.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170713>
              m.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170713

              Drawbacks and Advantages of a Large Energy Budget
              It is not necessary to prove that every technology capable of supplying
              plentiful high-grade energy must fail. It is clear that plentiful energy
              would not be a blessing in a materialistic world. When I was first told of
              cold fusion, I hoped it would turn out to be a failure. The first thing that
              popped into my head was traffic on the interstates multiplied a hundred-fold
              all over the globe. Do we really want to turn the world into Loop 610?

              On the other hand, in a cooperative world, (I have claimed) energy would be
              used wisely as there would be no incentive to use it selfishly and stupidly.
              (You see; I, too, make use of incentive arguments that presume some
              knowledge of human nature. I claim that the knowledge I profess has a better
              basis in fact than theories that deny intrinsic motivation. After all, I am
              claiming only what everyone believes. We have never given intrinsic
              motivation a chance, but we can see for ourselves – even feel for ourselves
              – the power of intrinsic motivation when it is allowed to function.)

              For a change, I shall present only an outline of the drawbacks and
              advantages of a plentiful (high-grade) energy budget – even though I believe
              that, unless the population be reduced considerably, energy shall continue
              to be scarce. Thus, I haven’t much hope for a large population; however, a
              small population might encounter serious obstacles too. Perhaps a small
              population would have difficulty harvesting even a large supply of biomass
              and scarcity would persist. As far as those large readily available
              fossil-fuel reserves are concerned, soon they shall be gone forever.

              Outline of Likely Effects of a Plentiful Energy Budget under Contrasting
              Social Conditions

              I. Wrongful Use ( competition for wealth and power)
              A. Health risk and discomfort
              1. chemical and radiative pollution
              2. space pollution (junk in outer space)
              3. noise
              4. light pollution (we can’t see the stars, which is all we wanted of them)
              5. information pollution (lies, propaganda, drivel)
              6. excessive motion leading to stress
              7. crowding
              8. disappearance of wilderness
              9. extinctions of species
              10. population growth
              11. ugliness
              12. urbanization
              a. garbage
              b. sewage
              13. crime
              14. insanity
              15. etc.
              B. Useless consumer products and deceptive marketing
              C. More junkpiles and less space
              D. Wasted effort
              E. Unpleasant jobs
              F. CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH AND POWER
              G. TOTALITARIANISM
              H. WAR
              II. Proper Uses (cooperation)
              A. Population control
              B. Pollution control
              1. Purification of all waste streams
              2. Separation and recycle of all junk
              C. Decentralization (deurbanization)
              D. Mass communication
              E. Equality of wealth, power, and fame
              F. Abundant living without excessive work, perhaps none for people who hate
              work. Of course, many people will work on personal projects interesting to
              themselves only, one of which might save the world in some easily imagined
              scenario.
              G. Etc.

              [Note in proof (1-26-97). Even supposing that we have abandoned materialism,
              an excessively lavish emergy supply will only make it harder to abide by the
              spirit and the letter of the social contract derived from our minimal proper
              religion. Overconsumption and population growth might be hard to resist.
              Nevertheless, in keeping with the view of humanity that, in Chapter 4 of
              this essay, is assumed to be a good enough approximation to the correct
              view, I shall continue to trust humanity to do the right thing. Undoubtedly,
              this point is moot as emergy will always be scarce. In case it turns out
              that I am wrong, I hope future generations forgive my lack of prescience, as
              I forgive past and present generations who can’t read the future or who
              can’t see the world as it actually is. Remember, many of you have acted (or
              continue to act) unwisely; however, I will have acted prudently. It is
              better to have planned for a calamity that doesn’t occur than not to have
              prepared
              for one that does!]

              [end of selection from Chapter 2]

              I hope this helps to clarify my position.

              Best regards,
              Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas

              Steve Bosserman <stevebosserman@ <mailto:stevebosserman%40yahoo.com>
              yahoo.com> wrote:
              Hi Tom,

              In reading your treatise about "dematerialism," your deep analysis shows a
              profound level of commitment to giving the issues surrounding our choices
              about what, how much, and in what way we consume a very thorough
              investigation. However, this prompts a question. It is my impression that
              you are associating the use of fossil fuel (heading toward inevitable
              depletion and polluting the environment more and more along the way), with
              consumption (unchecked materialism), and commerce (in this case, the
              confluence of capitalism, finance, and industry spurring unnecessary
              competition, wastefulness of natural and human resources, and greediness to
              accumulate excessive wealth at the expense of countless others). If my
              understanding is correct, under what conditions would we be living now if,
              through some miracle of development 300 years ago, our energy needs had been
              and continue to be met by solar power (as an example) in lieu of fossil
              fuel? To ask the question another way, is it your opinion that the
              phenomena of consumption and commerce as experienced today are the
              inevitable outcomes of flawed systems that doom us to destruction
              irrespective of the energy source used to drive technological advancement OR
              did the use of fossil fuel distort the functionality of plausible systems to
              behave in undesirable ways? This may be covered in your paper, but if so, I
              missed it. Thanks in advance for your consideration.

              Best regards,

              Steve B.

              _____

              From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
              [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] On
              Behalf
              Of Tom Wayburn
              Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 10:39 PM
              To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
              Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Steve Bosserman, good to hear from you!

              Andrius,

              I have gone to a lot of trouble to show arithmetically that business,
              markets, buying and selling, the profit motive are inconsistent with
              sustainability. I understand that not everyone on this list can afford to
              forego earning money; however, all of us should be aware that most things we
              do to earn money set back the cause of sustainability in one way or another
              and eventually must be rejected by a society that hopes to avoid a massive
              die-off. I get tired of pointing out the papers and computational studies I
              have already finished that prove these points. I continue work on the Mark
              II Economy to produce an educational tool that might be used or improved
              upon to create a wider understanding of the types of political changes that
              sustainability requires.

              Tom

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
              Blog: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/>
              m.blogspot.com/
              Website: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/
              Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post:
              twayburn@wt. <mailto:twayburn%40wt.net> net
              If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to twayburn@yahoo.
              <mailto:twayburn%40yahoo.com> com .

              ---------------------------------
              Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
              starting at 1¢/min.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






              Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
              Blog: http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/
              Website: http://dematerialism.net/
              Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post: twayburn@...
              If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to twayburn@... .





              ---------------------------------
              Do you Yahoo!?
              Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tom Wayburn
              Steve, I think you are a person who might have some ideas about ultimately getting people to change and as a prelude to that getting them to discover certain
              Message 6 of 27 , Aug 27, 2006
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                Steve,

                I think you are a person who might have some ideas about ultimately getting people to change and as a prelude to that getting them to discover certain facts of life that we both feel they should understand even though their ability to earn a living may depend upon them not understanding them. In particular, we need people to understand that economic growth is undesirable except in the least developed countries that need to grow as we shrink until we meet somewhere in between.

                I have been singularly unsuccessful in raising the level of understanding among the people who contribute to this forum even. Someone needs to teach me how to reach people.

                Tom




                Steve Bosserman <stevebosserman@...> wrote:
                Hi Tom,

                Thanks for your quick response. If I am following your logic, it appears
                that humanity has a treacherous path ahead regardless of how plentiful and
                benign the energy. This difficulty is due to the “immorality” of various
                systems we humans have put in place to “manage” behavior. Scarcity spawns
                fear and greed. This creates an enormous opportunity for those who are
                unabashed at using fear to their advantage. Indeed, they are loath to
                change the rules.

                Some suggest that cooperation engenders a sense of abundance, but as you
                mention there may very well not be enough to go around whether motivation is
                cooperative or competitive. Nonetheless, the more scarcity the more people
                are driven by their instincts to perpetuate the species and the more the
                human population grows. In addition, people whose survival is at risk leave
                where they are and migrate elsewhere to seek relief. More often than not,
                their destination is an urban area that is already over-burdened and
                maladaptive. In many instances their circumstances are made worse—and the
                world loses.

                This suggests that to reduce the perception that unchecked scarcity reigns
                supreme lessens the pressure to propagate, which slows population growth and
                migration—and the world benefits. Inculcating people in the ways of
                cooperation is a very powerful approach in creating that impression. How to
                do that, though, is quite a challenge.

                Each of us engages in the battle against the threat of scarcity on multiple
                fronts: personally, locally, and globally. The arena of meaningful action
                is quite extensive. It is clear you have considerable experience fighting
                the good fight for a more cooperative existence beyond exhorting others to
                do so. What works for you? How do you carry your thinking into purposeful
                action in your life at home, in the Houston area (number two in urban sprawl
                in the USA), and in the larger domains of national and international
                politics? What vulnerabilities do you see in the current system that can be
                readily exploited?

                Thanks in advance for your response. There are several ways I have in mind
                to apply your work in turning the dial of cooperation, but I would rather
                hear what you are doing so that what I might propose is aligned rather than
                oblique. Looking forward to it!

                Best regards,

                Steve B.

                _____

                From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of Tom Wayburn
                Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 5:27 PM
                To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Fossil Fuel, Consumption, and Commerce

                Thanks, Steve, for looking at my work. Clearly, a model of acquisitiveness,
                consumption, and economic growth cannot be sustained in a finite world. Many
                writers have discussed the immorality of a system that is based upon greed
                and fear. It is not just that many will do anything for profit; but, for
                most others, if they do not do whatever they can, they will perish.
                Therefore, if capitalism had been based upon an unlimited sustainable energy
                source - or virtually unlimited if, for example, we could harvest all of the
                185,000 terrawatts radiating the earth from the sun - we would still be in
                enormous difficulties of a moral nature even supposing we could escape the
                earth whose large distances from other habitable planets constitutes a sort
                of quarantine of man's corrupted nature from contact with other sentient
                beings who might suffer immeasurably from contact with human beings.

                In Chapter 2 of my book I made an outline of some of the likely effects of a
                plentiful energy scenario:

                from http://dematerialis
                <http://dematerialism.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170713>
                m.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170713

                Drawbacks and Advantages of a Large Energy Budget
                It is not necessary to prove that every technology capable of supplying
                plentiful high-grade energy must fail. It is clear that plentiful energy
                would not be a blessing in a materialistic world. When I was first told of
                cold fusion, I hoped it would turn out to be a failure. The first thing that
                popped into my head was traffic on the interstates multiplied a hundred-fold
                all over the globe. Do we really want to turn the world into Loop 610?

                On the other hand, in a cooperative world, (I have claimed) energy would be
                used wisely as there would be no incentive to use it selfishly and stupidly.
                (You see; I, too, make use of incentive arguments that presume some
                knowledge of human nature. I claim that the knowledge I profess has a better
                basis in fact than theories that deny intrinsic motivation. After all, I am
                claiming only what everyone believes. We have never given intrinsic
                motivation a chance, but we can see for ourselves – even feel for ourselves
                – the power of intrinsic motivation when it is allowed to function.)

                For a change, I shall present only an outline of the drawbacks and
                advantages of a plentiful (high-grade) energy budget – even though I believe
                that, unless the population be reduced considerably, energy shall continue
                to be scarce. Thus, I haven’t much hope for a large population; however, a
                small population might encounter serious obstacles too. Perhaps a small
                population would have difficulty harvesting even a large supply of biomass
                and scarcity would persist. As far as those large readily available
                fossil-fuel reserves are concerned, soon they shall be gone forever.

                Outline of Likely Effects of a Plentiful Energy Budget under Contrasting
                Social Conditions

                I. Wrongful Use ( competition for wealth and power)
                A. Health risk and discomfort
                1. chemical and radiative pollution
                2. space pollution (junk in outer space)
                3. noise
                4. light pollution (we can’t see the stars, which is all we wanted of them)
                5. information pollution (lies, propaganda, drivel)
                6. excessive motion leading to stress
                7. crowding
                8. disappearance of wilderness
                9. extinctions of species
                10. population growth
                11. ugliness
                12. urbanization
                a. garbage
                b. sewage
                13. crime
                14. insanity
                15. etc.
                B. Useless consumer products and deceptive marketing
                C. More junkpiles and less space
                D. Wasted effort
                E. Unpleasant jobs
                F. CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH AND POWER
                G. TOTALITARIANISM
                H. WAR
                II. Proper Uses (cooperation)
                A. Population control
                B. Pollution control
                1. Purification of all waste streams
                2. Separation and recycle of all junk
                C. Decentralization (deurbanization)
                D. Mass communication
                E. Equality of wealth, power, and fame
                F. Abundant living without excessive work, perhaps none for people who hate
                work. Of course, many people will work on personal projects interesting to
                themselves only, one of which might save the world in some easily imagined
                scenario.
                G. Etc.

                [Note in proof (1-26-97). Even supposing that we have abandoned materialism,
                an excessively lavish emergy supply will only make it harder to abide by the
                spirit and the letter of the social contract derived from our minimal proper
                religion. Overconsumption and population growth might be hard to resist.
                Nevertheless, in keeping with the view of humanity that, in Chapter 4 of
                this essay, is assumed to be a good enough approximation to the correct
                view, I shall continue to trust humanity to do the right thing. Undoubtedly,
                this point is moot as emergy will always be scarce. In case it turns out
                that I am wrong, I hope future generations forgive my lack of prescience, as
                I forgive past and present generations who can’t read the future or who
                can’t see the world as it actually is. Remember, many of you have acted (or
                continue to act) unwisely; however, I will have acted prudently. It is
                better to have planned for a calamity that doesn’t occur than not to have
                prepared
                for one that does!]

                [end of selection from Chapter 2]

                I hope this helps to clarify my position.

                Best regards,
                Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas

                Steve Bosserman <stevebosserman@ <mailto:stevebosserman%40yahoo.com>
                yahoo.com> wrote:
                Hi Tom,

                In reading your treatise about "dematerialism," your deep analysis shows a
                profound level of commitment to giving the issues surrounding our choices
                about what, how much, and in what way we consume a very thorough
                investigation. However, this prompts a question. It is my impression that
                you are associating the use of fossil fuel (heading toward inevitable
                depletion and polluting the environment more and more along the way), with
                consumption (unchecked materialism), and commerce (in this case, the
                confluence of capitalism, finance, and industry spurring unnecessary
                competition, wastefulness of natural and human resources, and greediness to
                accumulate excessive wealth at the expense of countless others). If my
                understanding is correct, under what conditions would we be living now if,
                through some miracle of development 300 years ago, our energy needs had been
                and continue to be met by solar power (as an example) in lieu of fossil
                fuel? To ask the question another way, is it your opinion that the
                phenomena of consumption and commerce as experienced today are the
                inevitable outcomes of flawed systems that doom us to destruction
                irrespective of the energy source used to drive technological advancement OR
                did the use of fossil fuel distort the functionality of plausible systems to
                behave in undesirable ways? This may be covered in your paper, but if so, I
                missed it. Thanks in advance for your consideration.

                Best regards,

                Steve B.

                _____

                From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] On
                Behalf
                Of Tom Wayburn
                Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 10:39 PM
                To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Steve Bosserman, good to hear from you!

                Andrius,

                I have gone to a lot of trouble to show arithmetically that business,
                markets, buying and selling, the profit motive are inconsistent with
                sustainability. I understand that not everyone on this list can afford to
                forego earning money; however, all of us should be aware that most things we
                do to earn money set back the cause of sustainability in one way or another
                and eventually must be rejected by a society that hopes to avoid a massive
                die-off. I get tired of pointing out the papers and computational studies I
                have already finished that prove these points. I continue work on the Mark
                II Economy to produce an educational tool that might be used or improved
                upon to create a wider understanding of the types of political changes that
                sustainability requires.

                Tom

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                Blog: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/>
                m.blogspot.com/
                Website: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/
                Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post:
                twayburn@wt. <mailto:twayburn%40wt.net> net
                If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to twayburn@yahoo.
                <mailto:twayburn%40yahoo.com> com .

                ---------------------------------
                Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
                starting at 1¢/min.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                Blog: http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/
                Website: http://dematerialism.net/
                Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post: twayburn@...
                If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to twayburn@... .





                ---------------------------------
                Do you Yahoo!?
                Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jon Love
                Tom and Steve, As a reader of the posts on this list I have learned a lot and been provoked to critical thinking on many occasions. In the interest of brevity
                Message 7 of 27 , Aug 27, 2006
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  Tom and Steve,

                  As a reader of the posts on this list I have learned a lot and been
                  provoked to critical thinking on many occasions. In the interest of
                  brevity at the moment, I would like to call your attention to a
                  program developed by an organization called "the Pachamama Alliance,"
                  which is a one-day symposium designed to "wake people up" to the
                  "dream" of the modern world, and the web of unexamined assumptions
                  that drive our behavior in ways that produce an unjust, unfulfilling
                  and unsustainable human presence on earth. Check it out here: http://
                  www.pachamama.org/atd/

                  This piece of work does actually reach people, and moves them from
                  denial to action.

                  On another note, there is one aspect of development that actually has
                  been shown to reduce population growth rather than increase it.
                  Notice that the "native replacement rate" (the rate of increase that
                  a country would experience without immigration or emigration) is
                  negative in many industrialized countries. It seems that as infant
                  mortality falls and women's level of eduction rises there is a huge
                  drop in birth rates - the statistical correlation is convincing - It
                  seems women who have alternatives to motherhood to make life
                  meaningful, and who have confidence that their first and second
                  children are more likely to live than to die, make different choices
                  and family size falls rapidly.

                  I would say that it is the green revolution in concert with lack of
                  health care and women's education that has led to the egregious
                  expansion of populations in countries that cannot now provide for
                  them adequately.

                  Thanks,

                  Jon Love

                  On Aug 27, 2006, at 10:54 PM, Tom Wayburn wrote:

                  > Steve,
                  >
                  > I think you are a person who might have some ideas about
                  > ultimately getting people to change and as a prelude to that
                  > getting them to discover certain facts of life that we both feel
                  > they should understand even though their ability to earn a living
                  > may depend upon them not understanding them. In particular, we
                  > need people to understand that economic growth is undesirable
                  > except in the least developed countries that need to grow as we
                  > shrink until we meet somewhere in between.
                  >
                  > I have been singularly unsuccessful in raising the level of
                  > understanding among the people who contribute to this forum even.
                  > Someone needs to teach me how to reach people.
                  >
                  > Tom
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Steve Bosserman <stevebosserman@...> wrote:
                  > Hi Tom,
                  >
                  > Thanks for your quick response. If I am following your logic, it
                  > appears
                  > that humanity has a treacherous path ahead regardless of how
                  > plentiful and
                  > benign the energy. This difficulty is due to the �immorality� of
                  > various
                  > systems we humans have put in place to �manage� behavior. Scarcity
                  > spawns
                  > fear and greed. This creates an enormous opportunity for those who are
                  > unabashed at using fear to their advantage. Indeed, they are loath to
                  > change the rules.
                  >
                  > Some suggest that cooperation engenders a sense of abundance, but
                  > as you
                  > mention there may very well not be enough to go around whether
                  > motivation is
                  > cooperative or competitive. Nonetheless, the more scarcity the more
                  > people
                  > are driven by their instincts to perpetuate the species and the
                  > more the
                  > human population grows. In addition, people whose survival is at
                  > risk leave
                  > where they are and migrate elsewhere to seek relief. More often
                  > than not,
                  > their destination is an urban area that is already over-burdened and
                  > maladaptive. In many instances their circumstances are made worse�
                  > and the
                  > world loses.
                  >
                  > This suggests that to reduce the perception that unchecked scarcity
                  > reigns
                  > supreme lessens the pressure to propagate, which slows population
                  > growth and
                  > migration�and the world benefits. Inculcating people in the ways of
                  > cooperation is a very powerful approach in creating that
                  > impression. How to
                  > do that, though, is quite a challenge.
                  >
                  > Each of us engages in the battle against the threat of scarcity on
                  > multiple
                  > fronts: personally, locally, and globally. The arena of meaningful
                  > action
                  > is quite extensive. It is clear you have considerable experience
                  > fighting
                  > the good fight for a more cooperative existence beyond exhorting
                  > others to
                  > do so. What works for you? How do you carry your thinking into
                  > purposeful
                  > action in your life at home, in the Houston area (number two in
                  > urban sprawl
                  > in the USA), and in the larger domains of national and international
                  > politics? What vulnerabilities do you see in the current system
                  > that can be
                  > readily exploited?
                  >
                  > Thanks in advance for your response. There are several ways I have
                  > in mind
                  > to apply your work in turning the dial of cooperation, but I would
                  > rather
                  > hear what you are doing so that what I might propose is aligned
                  > rather than
                  > oblique. Looking forward to it!
                  >
                  > Best regards,
                  >
                  > Steve B.
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  > From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com]
                  > On Behalf
                  > Of Tom Wayburn
                  > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 5:27 PM
                  > To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Fossil Fuel, Consumption, and Commerce
                  >
                  > Thanks, Steve, for looking at my work. Clearly, a model of
                  > acquisitiveness,
                  > consumption, and economic growth cannot be sustained in a finite
                  > world. Many
                  > writers have discussed the immorality of a system that is based
                  > upon greed
                  > and fear. It is not just that many will do anything for profit;
                  > but, for
                  > most others, if they do not do whatever they can, they will perish.
                  > Therefore, if capitalism had been based upon an unlimited
                  > sustainable energy
                  > source - or virtually unlimited if, for example, we could harvest
                  > all of the
                  > 185,000 terrawatts radiating the earth from the sun - we would
                  > still be in
                  > enormous difficulties of a moral nature even supposing we could
                  > escape the
                  > earth whose large distances from other habitable planets
                  > constitutes a sort
                  > of quarantine of man's corrupted nature from contact with other
                  > sentient
                  > beings who might suffer immeasurably from contact with human beings.
                  >
                  > In Chapter 2 of my book I made an outline of some of the likely
                  > effects of a
                  > plentiful energy scenario:
                  >
                  > from http://dematerialis
                  > <http://dematerialism.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170713>
                  > m.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170713
                  >
                  > Drawbacks and Advantages of a Large Energy Budget
                  > It is not necessary to prove that every technology capable of
                  > supplying
                  > plentiful high-grade energy must fail. It is clear that plentiful
                  > energy
                  > would not be a blessing in a materialistic world. When I was first
                  > told of
                  > cold fusion, I hoped it would turn out to be a failure. The first
                  > thing that
                  > popped into my head was traffic on the interstates multiplied a
                  > hundred-fold
                  > all over the globe. Do we really want to turn the world into Loop 610?
                  >
                  > On the other hand, in a cooperative world, (I have claimed) energy
                  > would be
                  > used wisely as there would be no incentive to use it selfishly and
                  > stupidly.
                  > (You see; I, too, make use of incentive arguments that presume some
                  > knowledge of human nature. I claim that the knowledge I profess has
                  > a better
                  > basis in fact than theories that deny intrinsic motivation. After
                  > all, I am
                  > claiming only what everyone believes. We have never given intrinsic
                  > motivation a chance, but we can see for ourselves � even feel for
                  > ourselves
                  > � the power of intrinsic motivation when it is allowed to function.)
                  >
                  > For a change, I shall present only an outline of the drawbacks and
                  > advantages of a plentiful (high-grade) energy budget � even though
                  > I believe
                  > that, unless the population be reduced considerably, energy shall
                  > continue
                  > to be scarce. Thus, I haven�t much hope for a large population;
                  > however, a
                  > small population might encounter serious obstacles too. Perhaps a
                  > small
                  > population would have difficulty harvesting even a large supply of
                  > biomass
                  > and scarcity would persist. As far as those large readily available
                  > fossil-fuel reserves are concerned, soon they shall be gone forever.
                  >
                  > Outline of Likely Effects of a Plentiful Energy Budget under
                  > Contrasting
                  > Social Conditions
                  >
                  > I. Wrongful Use ( competition for wealth and power)
                  > A. Health risk and discomfort
                  > 1. chemical and radiative pollution
                  > 2. space pollution (junk in outer space)
                  > 3. noise
                  > 4. light pollution (we can�t see the stars, which is all we wanted
                  > of them)
                  > 5. information pollution (lies, propaganda, drivel)
                  > 6. excessive motion leading to stress
                  > 7. crowding
                  > 8. disappearance of wilderness
                  > 9. extinctions of species
                  > 10. population growth
                  > 11. ugliness
                  > 12. urbanization
                  > a. garbage
                  > b. sewage
                  > 13. crime
                  > 14. insanity
                  > 15. etc.
                  > B. Useless consumer products and deceptive marketing
                  > C. More junkpiles and less space
                  > D. Wasted effort
                  > E. Unpleasant jobs
                  > F. CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH AND POWER
                  > G. TOTALITARIANISM
                  > H. WAR
                  > II. Proper Uses (cooperation)
                  > A. Population control
                  > B. Pollution control
                  > 1. Purification of all waste streams
                  > 2. Separation and recycle of all junk
                  > C. Decentralization (deurbanization)
                  > D. Mass communication
                  > E. Equality of wealth, power, and fame
                  > F. Abundant living without excessive work, perhaps none for people
                  > who hate
                  > work. Of course, many people will work on personal projects
                  > interesting to
                  > themselves only, one of which might save the world in some easily
                  > imagined
                  > scenario.
                  > G. Etc.
                  >
                  > [Note in proof (1-26-97). Even supposing that we have abandoned
                  > materialism,
                  > an excessively lavish emergy supply will only make it harder to
                  > abide by the
                  > spirit and the letter of the social contract derived from our
                  > minimal proper
                  > religion. Overconsumption and population growth might be hard to
                  > resist.
                  > Nevertheless, in keeping with the view of humanity that, in Chapter
                  > 4 of
                  > this essay, is assumed to be a good enough approximation to the
                  > correct
                  > view, I shall continue to trust humanity to do the right thing.
                  > Undoubtedly,
                  > this point is moot as emergy will always be scarce. In case it
                  > turns out
                  > that I am wrong, I hope future generations forgive my lack of
                  > prescience, as
                  > I forgive past and present generations who can�t read the future or
                  > who
                  > can�t see the world as it actually is. Remember, many of you have
                  > acted (or
                  > continue to act) unwisely; however, I will have acted prudently. It is
                  > better to have planned for a calamity that doesn�t occur than not
                  > to have
                  > prepared
                  > for one that does!]
                  >
                  > [end of selection from Chapter 2]
                  >
                  > I hope this helps to clarify my position.
                  >
                  > Best regards,
                  > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                  >
                  > Steve Bosserman <stevebosserman@ <mailto:stevebosserman%40yahoo.com>
                  > yahoo.com> wrote:
                  > Hi Tom,
                  >
                  > In reading your treatise about "dematerialism," your deep analysis
                  > shows a
                  > profound level of commitment to giving the issues surrounding our
                  > choices
                  > about what, how much, and in what way we consume a very thorough
                  > investigation. However, this prompts a question. It is my
                  > impression that
                  > you are associating the use of fossil fuel (heading toward inevitable
                  > depletion and polluting the environment more and more along the
                  > way), with
                  > consumption (unchecked materialism), and commerce (in this case, the
                  > confluence of capitalism, finance, and industry spurring unnecessary
                  > competition, wastefulness of natural and human resources, and
                  > greediness to
                  > accumulate excessive wealth at the expense of countless others). If my
                  > understanding is correct, under what conditions would we be living
                  > now if,
                  > through some miracle of development 300 years ago, our energy needs
                  > had been
                  > and continue to be met by solar power (as an example) in lieu of
                  > fossil
                  > fuel? To ask the question another way, is it your opinion that the
                  > phenomena of consumption and commerce as experienced today are the
                  > inevitable outcomes of flawed systems that doom us to destruction
                  > irrespective of the energy source used to drive technological
                  > advancement OR
                  > did the use of fossil fuel distort the functionality of plausible
                  > systems to
                  > behave in undesirable ways? This may be covered in your paper, but
                  > if so, I
                  > missed it. Thanks in advance for your consideration.
                  >
                  > Best regards,
                  >
                  > Steve B.
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  > From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                  > [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > ps.com] On
                  > Behalf
                  > Of Tom Wayburn
                  > Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 10:39 PM
                  > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                  > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Steve Bosserman, good to hear from you!
                  >
                  > Andrius,
                  >
                  > I have gone to a lot of trouble to show arithmetically that business,
                  > markets, buying and selling, the profit motive are inconsistent with
                  > sustainability. I understand that not everyone on this list can
                  > afford to
                  > forego earning money; however, all of us should be aware that most
                  > things we
                  > do to earn money set back the cause of sustainability in one way or
                  > another
                  > and eventually must be rejected by a society that hopes to avoid a
                  > massive
                  > die-off. I get tired of pointing out the papers and computational
                  > studies I
                  > have already finished that prove these points. I continue work on
                  > the Mark
                  > II Economy to produce an educational tool that might be used or
                  > improved
                  > upon to create a wider understanding of the types of political
                  > changes that
                  > sustainability requires.
                  >
                  > Tom
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                  > Blog: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/>
                  > m.blogspot.com/
                  > Website: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/
                  > Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post:
                  > twayburn@wt. <mailto:twayburn%40wt.net> net
                  > If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to
                  > twayburn@yahoo.
                  > <mailto:twayburn%40yahoo.com> com .
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.
                  > Great rates
                  > starting at 1�/min.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                  > Blog: http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/
                  > Website: http://dematerialism.net/
                  > Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this
                  > post: twayburn@...
                  > If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to
                  > twayburn@... .
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Each letter sent to cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                  > enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN whenever it does not state otherwise.
                  > http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org
                  > Please be kind to our authors!
                  >
                  > Have a look at our wiki where we are creating an online learning
                  > environment for community currency: http://www.findbetterways.info/
                  > wiki.cgi?FindBetterWays/CommunityCurrency
                  >
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: cyfranogi@...
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: cyfranogi-
                  > unsubscribe@...
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Tom Wayburn
                  Thanks, Jon Love, I shall be looking into the Pachamama Alliance this very hour. I wondered if anyone else were listening to our conversation. Now I know.
                  Message 8 of 27 , Aug 28, 2006
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                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thanks, Jon Love, I shall be looking into the Pachamama Alliance this very hour. I wondered if anyone else were listening to our conversation. Now I know.

                    Best regards,
                    Tom

                    Jon Love <jonlove@...> wrote:
                    Tom and Steve,

                    As a reader of the posts on this list I have learned a lot and been
                    provoked to critical thinking on many occasions. In the interest of
                    brevity at the moment, I would like to call your attention to a
                    program developed by an organization called "the Pachamama Alliance,"
                    which is a one-day symposium designed to "wake people up" to the
                    "dream" of the modern world, and the web of unexamined assumptions
                    that drive our behavior in ways that produce an unjust, unfulfilling
                    and unsustainable human presence on earth. Check it out here: http://
                    www.pachamama.org/atd/

                    This piece of work does actually reach people, and moves them from
                    denial to action.

                    On another note, there is one aspect of development that actually has
                    been shown to reduce population growth rather than increase it.
                    Notice that the "native replacement rate" (the rate of increase that
                    a country would experience without immigration or emigration) is
                    negative in many industrialized countries. It seems that as infant
                    mortality falls and women's level of eduction rises there is a huge
                    drop in birth rates - the statistical correlation is convincing - It
                    seems women who have alternatives to motherhood to make life
                    meaningful, and who have confidence that their first and second
                    children are more likely to live than to die, make different choices
                    and family size falls rapidly.

                    I would say that it is the green revolution in concert with lack of
                    health care and women's education that has led to the egregious
                    expansion of populations in countries that cannot now provide for
                    them adequately.

                    Thanks,

                    Jon Love

                    On Aug 27, 2006, at 10:54 PM, Tom Wayburn wrote:

                    > Steve,
                    >
                    > I think you are a person who might have some ideas about
                    > ultimately getting people to change and as a prelude to that
                    > getting them to discover certain facts of life that we both feel
                    > they should understand even though their ability to earn a living
                    > may depend upon them not understanding them. In particular, we
                    > need people to understand that economic growth is undesirable
                    > except in the least developed countries that need to grow as we
                    > shrink until we meet somewhere in between.
                    >
                    > I have been singularly unsuccessful in raising the level of
                    > understanding among the people who contribute to this forum even.
                    > Someone needs to teach me how to reach people.
                    >
                    > Tom
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Steve Bosserman wrote:
                    > Hi Tom,
                    >
                    > Thanks for your quick response. If I am following your logic, it
                    > appears
                    > that humanity has a treacherous path ahead regardless of how
                    > plentiful and
                    > benign the energy. This difficulty is due to the “immorality” of
                    > various
                    > systems we humans have put in place to “manage” behavior. Scarcity
                    > spawns
                    > fear and greed. This creates an enormous opportunity for those who are
                    > unabashed at using fear to their advantage. Indeed, they are loath to
                    > change the rules.
                    >
                    > Some suggest that cooperation engenders a sense of abundance, but
                    > as you
                    > mention there may very well not be enough to go around whether
                    > motivation is
                    > cooperative or competitive. Nonetheless, the more scarcity the more
                    > people
                    > are driven by their instincts to perpetuate the species and the
                    > more the
                    > human population grows. In addition, people whose survival is at
                    > risk leave
                    > where they are and migrate elsewhere to seek relief. More often
                    > than not,
                    > their destination is an urban area that is already over-burdened and
                    > maladaptive. In many instances their circumstances are made worse—
                    > and the
                    > world loses.
                    >
                    > This suggests that to reduce the perception that unchecked scarcity
                    > reigns
                    > supreme lessens the pressure to propagate, which slows population
                    > growth and
                    > migration—and the world benefits. Inculcating people in the ways of
                    > cooperation is a very powerful approach in creating that
                    > impression. How to
                    > do that, though, is quite a challenge.
                    >
                    > Each of us engages in the battle against the threat of scarcity on
                    > multiple
                    > fronts: personally, locally, and globally. The arena of meaningful
                    > action
                    > is quite extensive. It is clear you have considerable experience
                    > fighting
                    > the good fight for a more cooperative existence beyond exhorting
                    > others to
                    > do so. What works for you? How do you carry your thinking into
                    > purposeful
                    > action in your life at home, in the Houston area (number two in
                    > urban sprawl
                    > in the USA), and in the larger domains of national and international
                    > politics? What vulnerabilities do you see in the current system
                    > that can be
                    > readily exploited?
                    >
                    > Thanks in advance for your response. There are several ways I have
                    > in mind
                    > to apply your work in turning the dial of cooperation, but I would
                    > rather
                    > hear what you are doing so that what I might propose is aligned
                    > rather than
                    > oblique. Looking forward to it!
                    >
                    > Best regards,
                    >
                    > Steve B.
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com]
                    > On Behalf
                    > Of Tom Wayburn
                    > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 5:27 PM
                    > To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Fossil Fuel, Consumption, and Commerce
                    >
                    > Thanks, Steve, for looking at my work. Clearly, a model of
                    > acquisitiveness,
                    > consumption, and economic growth cannot be sustained in a finite
                    > world. Many
                    > writers have discussed the immorality of a system that is based
                    > upon greed
                    > and fear. It is not just that many will do anything for profit;
                    > but, for
                    > most others, if they do not do whatever they can, they will perish.
                    > Therefore, if capitalism had been based upon an unlimited
                    > sustainable energy
                    > source - or virtually unlimited if, for example, we could harvest
                    > all of the
                    > 185,000 terrawatts radiating the earth from the sun - we would
                    > still be in
                    > enormous difficulties of a moral nature even supposing we could
                    > escape the
                    > earth whose large distances from other habitable planets
                    > constitutes a sort
                    > of quarantine of man's corrupted nature from contact with other
                    > sentient
                    > beings who might suffer immeasurably from contact with human beings.
                    >
                    > In Chapter 2 of my book I made an outline of some of the likely
                    > effects of a
                    > plentiful energy scenario:
                    >
                    > from http://dematerialis
                    >
                    > m.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170713
                    >
                    > Drawbacks and Advantages of a Large Energy Budget
                    > It is not necessary to prove that every technology capable of
                    > supplying
                    > plentiful high-grade energy must fail. It is clear that plentiful
                    > energy
                    > would not be a blessing in a materialistic world. When I was first
                    > told of
                    > cold fusion, I hoped it would turn out to be a failure. The first
                    > thing that
                    > popped into my head was traffic on the interstates multiplied a
                    > hundred-fold
                    > all over the globe. Do we really want to turn the world into Loop 610?
                    >
                    > On the other hand, in a cooperative world, (I have claimed) energy
                    > would be
                    > used wisely as there would be no incentive to use it selfishly and
                    > stupidly.
                    > (You see; I, too, make use of incentive arguments that presume some
                    > knowledge of human nature. I claim that the knowledge I profess has
                    > a better
                    > basis in fact than theories that deny intrinsic motivation. After
                    > all, I am
                    > claiming only what everyone believes. We have never given intrinsic
                    > motivation a chance, but we can see for ourselves – even feel for
                    > ourselves
                    > – the power of intrinsic motivation when it is allowed to function.)
                    >
                    > For a change, I shall present only an outline of the drawbacks and
                    > advantages of a plentiful (high-grade) energy budget – even though
                    > I believe
                    > that, unless the population be reduced considerably, energy shall
                    > continue
                    > to be scarce. Thus, I haven’t much hope for a large population;
                    > however, a
                    > small population might encounter serious obstacles too. Perhaps a
                    > small
                    > population would have difficulty harvesting even a large supply of
                    > biomass
                    > and scarcity would persist. As far as those large readily available
                    > fossil-fuel reserves are concerned, soon they shall be gone forever.
                    >
                    > Outline of Likely Effects of a Plentiful Energy Budget under
                    > Contrasting
                    > Social Conditions
                    >
                    > I. Wrongful Use ( competition for wealth and power)
                    > A. Health risk and discomfort
                    > 1. chemical and radiative pollution
                    > 2. space pollution (junk in outer space)
                    > 3. noise
                    > 4. light pollution (we can’t see the stars, which is all we wanted
                    > of them)
                    > 5. information pollution (lies, propaganda, drivel)
                    > 6. excessive motion leading to stress
                    > 7. crowding
                    > 8. disappearance of wilderness
                    > 9. extinctions of species
                    > 10. population growth
                    > 11. ugliness
                    > 12. urbanization
                    > a. garbage
                    > b. sewage
                    > 13. crime
                    > 14. insanity
                    > 15. etc.
                    > B. Useless consumer products and deceptive marketing
                    > C. More junkpiles and less space
                    > D. Wasted effort
                    > E. Unpleasant jobs
                    > F. CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH AND POWER
                    > G. TOTALITARIANISM
                    > H. WAR
                    > II. Proper Uses (cooperation)
                    > A. Population control
                    > B. Pollution control
                    > 1. Purification of all waste streams
                    > 2. Separation and recycle of all junk
                    > C. Decentralization (deurbanization)
                    > D. Mass communication
                    > E. Equality of wealth, power, and fame
                    > F. Abundant living without excessive work, perhaps none for people
                    > who hate
                    > work. Of course, many people will work on personal projects
                    > interesting to
                    > themselves only, one of which might save the world in some easily
                    > imagined
                    > scenario.
                    > G. Etc.
                    >
                    > [Note in proof (1-26-97). Even supposing that we have abandoned
                    > materialism,
                    > an excessively lavish emergy supply will only make it harder to
                    > abide by the
                    > spirit and the letter of the social contract derived from our
                    > minimal proper
                    > religion. Overconsumption and population growth might be hard to
                    > resist.
                    > Nevertheless, in keeping with the view of humanity that, in Chapter
                    > 4 of
                    > this essay, is assumed to be a good enough approximation to the
                    > correct
                    > view, I shall continue to trust humanity to do the right thing.
                    > Undoubtedly,
                    > this point is moot as emergy will always be scarce. In case it
                    > turns out
                    > that I am wrong, I hope future generations forgive my lack of
                    > prescience, as
                    > I forgive past and present generations who can’t read the future or
                    > who
                    > can’t see the world as it actually is. Remember, many of you have
                    > acted (or
                    > continue to act) unwisely; however, I will have acted prudently. It is
                    > better to have planned for a calamity that doesn’t occur than not
                    > to have
                    > prepared
                    > for one that does!]
                    >
                    > [end of selection from Chapter 2]
                    >
                    > I hope this helps to clarify my position.
                    >
                    > Best regards,
                    > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                    >
                    > Steve Bosserman
                    > yahoo.com> wrote:
                    > Hi Tom,
                    >
                    > In reading your treatise about "dematerialism," your deep analysis
                    > shows a
                    > profound level of commitment to giving the issues surrounding our
                    > choices
                    > about what, how much, and in what way we consume a very thorough
                    > investigation. However, this prompts a question. It is my
                    > impression that
                    > you are associating the use of fossil fuel (heading toward inevitable
                    > depletion and polluting the environment more and more along the
                    > way), with
                    > consumption (unchecked materialism), and commerce (in this case, the
                    > confluence of capitalism, finance, and industry spurring unnecessary
                    > competition, wastefulness of natural and human resources, and
                    > greediness to
                    > accumulate excessive wealth at the expense of countless others). If my
                    > understanding is correct, under what conditions would we be living
                    > now if,
                    > through some miracle of development 300 years ago, our energy needs
                    > had been
                    > and continue to be met by solar power (as an example) in lieu of
                    > fossil
                    > fuel? To ask the question another way, is it your opinion that the
                    > phenomena of consumption and commerce as experienced today are the
                    > inevitable outcomes of flawed systems that doom us to destruction
                    > irrespective of the energy source used to drive technological
                    > advancement OR
                    > did the use of fossil fuel distort the functionality of plausible
                    > systems to
                    > behave in undesirable ways? This may be covered in your paper, but
                    > if so, I
                    > missed it. Thanks in advance for your consideration.
                    >
                    > Best regards,
                    >
                    > Steve B.
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                    > [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou
                    > ps.com] On
                    > Behalf
                    > Of Tom Wayburn
                    > Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 10:39 PM
                    > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                    > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Steve Bosserman, good to hear from you!
                    >
                    > Andrius,
                    >
                    > I have gone to a lot of trouble to show arithmetically that business,
                    > markets, buying and selling, the profit motive are inconsistent with
                    > sustainability. I understand that not everyone on this list can
                    > afford to
                    > forego earning money; however, all of us should be aware that most
                    > things we
                    > do to earn money set back the cause of sustainability in one way or
                    > another
                    > and eventually must be rejected by a society that hopes to avoid a
                    > massive
                    > die-off. I get tired of pointing out the papers and computational
                    > studies I
                    > have already finished that prove these points. I continue work on
                    > the Mark
                    > II Economy to produce an educational tool that might be used or
                    > improved
                    > upon to create a wider understanding of the types of political
                    > changes that
                    > sustainability requires.
                    >
                    > Tom
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                    > Blog: http://dematerialis
                    > m.blogspot.com/
                    > Website: http://dematerialis m.net/
                    > Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post:
                    > twayburn@wt. net
                    > If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to
                    > twayburn@yahoo.
                    > com .
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.
                    > Great rates
                    > starting at 1¢/min.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                    > Blog: http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/
                    > Website: http://dematerialism.net/
                    > Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this
                    > post: twayburn@...
                    > If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to
                    > twayburn@... .
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Do you Yahoo!?
                    > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Each letter sent to cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                    > enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN whenever it does not state otherwise.
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                    Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
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                  • Tom Wayburn
                    Steve and Jon, Just this minute I sent the following letter to the Pachamama Alliance: Dear Friends, I am an independent scholar devoting his declining years
                    Message 9 of 27 , Aug 28, 2006
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                      Steve and Jon,

                      Just this minute I sent the following letter to the Pachamama Alliance:

                      Dear Friends,

                      I am an independent scholar devoting his declining years to the best research he has ever done. I have no income and no sponsorship of any kind. Therefore, my results cannot be influenced by ideology. (My own ideas are enough for me.) What I need is help in reaching other people with the powerful messages my computational studies and my investigation into morality contain. Please take a look at my website http://dematerialism.net/ and my latest paper http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html (in which I illustrate the importance of abandoning market conomics*) to determine if I can be of any use to you. I am unable to assist you financially as no one other than my wife is assisting me.

                      *I hope that you agree with me that market economies are intrinsically unsustainable and must be abandoned in favor of planned economies or, better yet, give-away economies. My dilemma is how to convince people that this is true in the face of 116 years of anti-communist propaganda even though it is proved mathematically. To begin with, I can't get them to read http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html. If my spreadsheet simulator could be made into a fascinating computer game, perhaps young people would "accidentally" convince themselves that it is true.

                      Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                      http://dematerialism.net/
                      http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/


                      Tom Wayburn <twayburn@...> wrote:
                      Thanks, Jon Love, I shall be looking into the Pachamama Alliance this very hour. I wondered if anyone else were listening to our conversation. Now I know.

                      Best regards,
                      Tom

                      Jon Love <jonlove@...> wrote:
                      Tom and Steve,

                      As a reader of the posts on this list I have learned a lot and been
                      provoked to critical thinking on many occasions. In the interest of
                      brevity at the moment, I would like to call your attention to a
                      program developed by an organization called "the Pachamama Alliance,"
                      which is a one-day symposium designed to "wake people up" to the
                      "dream" of the modern world, and the web of unexamined assumptions
                      that drive our behavior in ways that produce an unjust, unfulfilling
                      and unsustainable human presence on earth. Check it out here: http://
                      www.pachamama.org/atd/

                      This piece of work does actually reach people, and moves them from
                      denial to action.

                      On another note, there is one aspect of development that actually has
                      been shown to reduce population growth rather than increase it.
                      Notice that the "native replacement rate" (the rate of increase that
                      a country would experience without immigration or emigration) is
                      negative in many industrialized countries. It seems that as infant
                      mortality falls and women's level of eduction rises there is a huge
                      drop in birth rates - the statistical correlation is convincing - It
                      seems women who have alternatives to motherhood to make life
                      meaningful, and who have confidence that their first and second
                      children are more likely to live than to die, make different choices
                      and family size falls rapidly.

                      I would say that it is the green revolution in concert with lack of
                      health care and women's education that has led to the egregious
                      expansion of populations in countries that cannot now provide for
                      them adequately.

                      Thanks,

                      Jon Love

                      On Aug 27, 2006, at 10:54 PM, Tom Wayburn wrote:

                      > Steve,
                      >
                      > I think you are a person who might have some ideas about
                      > ultimately getting people to change and as a prelude to that
                      > getting them to discover certain facts of life that we both feel
                      > they should understand even though their ability to earn a living
                      > may depend upon them not understanding them. In particular, we
                      > need people to understand that economic growth is undesirable
                      > except in the least developed countries that need to grow as we
                      > shrink until we meet somewhere in between.
                      >
                      > I have been singularly unsuccessful in raising the level of
                      > understanding among the people who contribute to this forum even.
                      > Someone needs to teach me how to reach people.
                      >
                      > Tom
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Steve Bosserman wrote:
                      > Hi Tom,
                      >
                      > Thanks for your quick response. If I am following your logic, it
                      > appears
                      > that humanity has a treacherous path ahead regardless of how
                      > plentiful and
                      > benign the energy. This difficulty is due to the “immorality” of
                      > various
                      > systems we humans have put in place to “manage” behavior. Scarcity
                      > spawns
                      > fear and greed. This creates an enormous opportunity for those who are
                      > unabashed at using fear to their advantage. Indeed, they are loath to
                      > change the rules.
                      >
                      > Some suggest that cooperation engenders a sense of abundance, but
                      > as you
                      > mention there may very well not be enough to go around whether
                      > motivation is
                      > cooperative or competitive. Nonetheless, the more scarcity the more
                      > people
                      > are driven by their instincts to perpetuate the species and the
                      > more the
                      > human population grows. In addition, people whose survival is at
                      > risk leave
                      > where they are and migrate elsewhere to seek relief. More often
                      > than not,
                      > their destination is an urban area that is already over-burdened and
                      > maladaptive. In many instances their circumstances are made worse—
                      > and the
                      > world loses.
                      >
                      > This suggests that to reduce the perception that unchecked scarcity
                      > reigns
                      > supreme lessens the pressure to propagate, which slows population
                      > growth and
                      > migration—and the world benefits. Inculcating people in the ways of
                      > cooperation is a very powerful approach in creating that
                      > impression. How to
                      > do that, though, is quite a challenge.
                      >
                      > Each of us engages in the battle against the threat of scarcity on
                      > multiple
                      > fronts: personally, locally, and globally. The arena of meaningful
                      > action
                      > is quite extensive. It is clear you have considerable experience
                      > fighting
                      > the good fight for a more cooperative existence beyond exhorting
                      > others to
                      > do so. What works for you? How do you carry your thinking into
                      > purposeful
                      > action in your life at home, in the Houston area (number two in
                      > urban sprawl
                      > in the USA), and in the larger domains of national and international
                      > politics? What vulnerabilities do you see in the current system
                      > that can be
                      > readily exploited?
                      >
                      > Thanks in advance for your response. There are several ways I have
                      > in mind
                      > to apply your work in turning the dial of cooperation, but I would
                      > rather
                      > hear what you are doing so that what I might propose is aligned
                      > rather than
                      > oblique. Looking forward to it!
                      >
                      > Best regards,
                      >
                      > Steve B.
                      >
                      > _____
                      >
                      > From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com]
                      > On Behalf
                      > Of Tom Wayburn
                      > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 5:27 PM
                      > To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Fossil Fuel, Consumption, and Commerce
                      >
                      > Thanks, Steve, for looking at my work. Clearly, a model of
                      > acquisitiveness,
                      > consumption, and economic growth cannot be sustained in a finite
                      > world. Many
                      > writers have discussed the immorality of a system that is based
                      > upon greed
                      > and fear. It is not just that many will do anything for profit;
                      > but, for
                      > most others, if they do not do whatever they can, they will perish.
                      > Therefore, if capitalism had been based upon an unlimited
                      > sustainable energy
                      > source - or virtually unlimited if, for example, we could harvest
                      > all of the
                      > 185,000 terrawatts radiating the earth from the sun - we would
                      > still be in
                      > enormous difficulties of a moral nature even supposing we could
                      > escape the
                      > earth whose large distances from other habitable planets
                      > constitutes a sort
                      > of quarantine of man's corrupted nature from contact with other
                      > sentient
                      > beings who might suffer immeasurably from contact with human beings.
                      >
                      > In Chapter 2 of my book I made an outline of some of the likely
                      > effects of a
                      > plentiful energy scenario:
                      >
                      > from http://dematerialis
                      >
                      > m.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170713
                      >
                      > Drawbacks and Advantages of a Large Energy Budget
                      > It is not necessary to prove that every technology capable of
                      > supplying
                      > plentiful high-grade energy must fail. It is clear that plentiful
                      > energy
                      > would not be a blessing in a materialistic world. When I was first
                      > told of
                      > cold fusion, I hoped it would turn out to be a failure. The first
                      > thing that
                      > popped into my head was traffic on the interstates multiplied a
                      > hundred-fold
                      > all over the globe. Do we really want to turn the world into Loop 610?
                      >
                      > On the other hand, in a cooperative world, (I have claimed) energy
                      > would be
                      > used wisely as there would be no incentive to use it selfishly and
                      > stupidly.
                      > (You see; I, too, make use of incentive arguments that presume some
                      > knowledge of human nature. I claim that the knowledge I profess has
                      > a better
                      > basis in fact than theories that deny intrinsic motivation. After
                      > all, I am
                      > claiming only what everyone believes. We have never given intrinsic
                      > motivation a chance, but we can see for ourselves – even feel for
                      > ourselves
                      > – the power of intrinsic motivation when it is allowed to function.)
                      >
                      > For a change, I shall present only an outline of the drawbacks and
                      > advantages of a plentiful (high-grade) energy budget – even though
                      > I believe
                      > that, unless the population be reduced considerably, energy shall
                      > continue
                      > to be scarce. Thus, I haven’t much hope for a large population;
                      > however, a
                      > small population might encounter serious obstacles too. Perhaps a
                      > small
                      > population would have difficulty harvesting even a large supply of
                      > biomass
                      > and scarcity would persist. As far as those large readily available
                      > fossil-fuel reserves are concerned, soon they shall be gone forever.
                      >
                      > Outline of Likely Effects of a Plentiful Energy Budget under
                      > Contrasting
                      > Social Conditions
                      >
                      > I. Wrongful Use ( competition for wealth and power)
                      > A. Health risk and discomfort
                      > 1. chemical and radiative pollution
                      > 2. space pollution (junk in outer space)
                      > 3. noise
                      > 4. light pollution (we can’t see the stars, which is all we wanted
                      > of them)
                      > 5. information pollution (lies, propaganda, drivel)
                      > 6. excessive motion leading to stress
                      > 7. crowding
                      > 8. disappearance of wilderness
                      > 9. extinctions of species
                      > 10. population growth
                      > 11. ugliness
                      > 12. urbanization
                      > a. garbage
                      > b. sewage
                      > 13. crime
                      > 14. insanity
                      > 15. etc.
                      > B. Useless consumer products and deceptive marketing
                      > C. More junkpiles and less space
                      > D. Wasted effort
                      > E. Unpleasant jobs
                      > F. CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH AND POWER
                      > G. TOTALITARIANISM
                      > H. WAR
                      > II. Proper Uses (cooperation)
                      > A. Population control
                      > B. Pollution control
                      > 1. Purification of all waste streams
                      > 2. Separation and recycle of all junk
                      > C. Decentralization (deurbanization)
                      > D. Mass communication
                      > E. Equality of wealth, power, and fame
                      > F. Abundant living without excessive work, perhaps none for people
                      > who hate
                      > work. Of course, many people will work on personal projects
                      > interesting to
                      > themselves only, one of which might save the world in some easily
                      > imagined
                      > scenario.
                      > G. Etc.
                      >
                      > [Note in proof (1-26-97). Even supposing that we have abandoned
                      > materialism,
                      > an excessively lavish emergy supply will only make it harder to
                      > abide by the
                      > spirit and the letter of the social contract derived from our
                      > minimal proper
                      > religion. Overconsumption and population growth might be hard to
                      > resist.
                      > Nevertheless, in keeping with the view of humanity that, in Chapter
                      > 4 of
                      > this essay, is assumed to be a good enough approximation to the
                      > correct
                      > view, I shall continue to trust humanity to do the right thing.
                      > Undoubtedly,
                      > this point is moot as emergy will always be scarce. In case it
                      > turns out
                      > that I am wrong, I hope future generations forgive my lack of
                      > prescience, as
                      > I forgive past and present generations who can’t read the future or
                      > who
                      > can’t see the world as it actually is. Remember, many of you have
                      > acted (or
                      > continue to act) unwisely; however, I will have acted prudently. It is
                      > better to have planned for a calamity that doesn’t occur than not
                      > to have
                      > prepared
                      > for one that does!]
                      >
                      > [end of selection from Chapter 2]
                      >
                      > I hope this helps to clarify my position.
                      >
                      > Best regards,
                      > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                      >
                      > Steve Bosserman
                      > yahoo.com> wrote:
                      > Hi Tom,
                      >
                      > In reading your treatise about "dematerialism," your deep analysis
                      > shows a
                      > profound level of commitment to giving the issues surrounding our
                      > choices
                      > about what, how much, and in what way we consume a very thorough
                      > investigation. However, this prompts a question. It is my
                      > impression that
                      > you are associating the use of fossil fuel (heading toward inevitable
                      > depletion and polluting the environment more and more along the
                      > way), with
                      > consumption (unchecked materialism), and commerce (in this case, the
                      > confluence of capitalism, finance, and industry spurring unnecessary
                      > competition, wastefulness of natural and human resources, and
                      > greediness to
                      > accumulate excessive wealth at the expense of countless others). If my
                      > understanding is correct, under what conditions would we be living
                      > now if,
                      > through some miracle of development 300 years ago, our energy needs
                      > had been
                      > and continue to be met by solar power (as an example) in lieu of
                      > fossil
                      > fuel? To ask the question another way, is it your opinion that the
                      > phenomena of consumption and commerce as experienced today are the
                      > inevitable outcomes of flawed systems that doom us to destruction
                      > irrespective of the energy source used to drive technological
                      > advancement OR
                      > did the use of fossil fuel distort the functionality of plausible
                      > systems to
                      > behave in undesirable ways? This may be covered in your paper, but
                      > if so, I
                      > missed it. Thanks in advance for your consideration.
                      >
                      > Best regards,
                      >
                      > Steve B.
                      >
                      > _____
                      >
                      > From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                      > [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou
                      > ps.com] On
                      > Behalf
                      > Of Tom Wayburn
                      > Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 10:39 PM
                      > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                      > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Steve Bosserman, good to hear from you!
                      >
                      > Andrius,
                      >
                      > I have gone to a lot of trouble to show arithmetically that business,
                      > markets, buying and selling, the profit motive are inconsistent with
                      > sustainability. I understand that not everyone on this list can
                      > afford to
                      > forego earning money; however, all of us should be aware that most
                      > things we
                      > do to earn money set back the cause of sustainability in one way or
                      > another
                      > and eventually must be rejected by a society that hopes to avoid a
                      > massive
                      > die-off. I get tired of pointing out the papers and computational
                      > studies I
                      > have already finished that prove these points. I continue work on
                      > the Mark
                      > II Economy to produce an educational tool that might be used or
                      > improved
                      > upon to create a wider understanding of the types of political
                      > changes that
                      > sustainability requires.
                      >
                      > Tom
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                      > Blog: http://dematerialis
                      > m.blogspot.com/
                      > Website: http://dematerialis m.net/
                      > Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post:
                      > twayburn@wt. net
                      > If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to
                      > twayburn@yahoo.
                      > com .
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
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                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                      > Blog: http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/
                      > Website: http://dematerialism.net/
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                      Blog: http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/
                      Website: http://dematerialism.net/
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                    • avalonfairshares
                      Hi Steve and Tom and Jon, (and everyone else), Firstly, I feel in no way qualified to make any comments about these things, and - having said that - here they
                      Message 10 of 27 , Aug 29, 2006
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                        Hi Steve and Tom and Jon, (and everyone else),

                        Firstly, I feel in no way qualified to make any comments about these things,
                        and - having said that - here they are:

                        I have had a very short look at Tom's documents, and there seems to be a
                        huge gap between the 'science' and the message.

                        > I have been singularly unsuccessful in raising the level of
                        > understanding among the people who contribute to this forum even.
                        > Someone needs to teach me how to reach people.

                        Well, it is - unfortunately - hard to read Tom's documents.

                        I am genuinely interested in sustainable human beings interacting with an
                        abundant planet, in an abundant solar system. But "I don't have the Latin".

                        A very similar thing happens when I'm trying to read "No More Throw Away
                        People" by Edgar Cahn - its a book all about Time Banking and Co-production.
                        I work in Time Banking and Co-production, I am a big fan of Edgar, but ...
                        reading his book is like wading through treacle.

                        I would like things stated simply. When I'm talking with the people who
                        take part in the Avalon Fair Shares Time Bank, I say: "money is a way of
                        showing the movement of energy between people." They say "yes." I think it
                        is quite simple really.

                        The sun is shining. Energy comes from the sun, through plants, to us. We
                        exchange this energy when we do things for ourselves and others. Money is
                        just a formalised promise from our community that you'll get some energy
                        back.

                        All this other stuff - consumerism, capitalism, mass production, scarcity,
                        etc., etc. - its all a beautiful waste of time. We are the people who give
                        Money and the Market its power. Change what you invest 'your' energy in.

                        'The Medium is the Message', so "Be the change you want to see". Join a
                        Time Bank! Give energy directly by doing things for people, and allow them
                        to do things for you. The movement of energy is life. Give life directly,
                        try leaving out the middle 'Money' bit.

                        The universe is abundant, and what goes around comes around. The Sun is
                        still shining.

                        :-)

                        Jon Cousins
                        not - particularly - representing the views of Avalon Fair Shares
                        Glastonbury. UK
                      • Terry Mace
                        Dear Tom, Steve and Jon... ...and all others following this link/thread, I ve read with interest all of the comments over the last several days and have
                        Message 11 of 27 , Aug 29, 2006
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                          Dear Tom, Steve and Jon... ...and all others following this link/thread,

                          I've read with interest all of the comments over the last several days and have decided to offer my assistance once again into our online community and arena.

                          Your comments have not gone unnoticed!

                          Today, I have something to say!

                          For those of you who know me and have taken the time to engage me you will know that often I am 'radical' even 'raw' with my thoughts, comments or actions.

                          As a metaphor, I liken myself humbly to the two grains of sand which agitate the oyster within, thus, birthing that most precious of peals, wisdom.

                          Whatever you views on the following comments, concepts and ideas please be assured of this...

                          ...I am a Brother...

                          I've picked up scientifically, philosophically and sociologically most of what has been said and humbly, I'd say I understand most of what has been positioned, hypothesised and spoken off, however, for me one 'core' thing remains unsaid, unspoken of...

                          ...Spirit!'

                          'What of our Spiritual Worth, Our Spiritual Economy, Our Spiritual Abundance, Our Spiritual Resources?'

                          Some posts ago, I brought up this subject and threw it like a pebble into our waters...

                          ...Did, the ripples reach anyone?

                          No one answered, responded or commented...

                          And so, I begin again...

                          Some posts ago we were also asked by our core facilitators to consider what our work in life was or could be...

                          ...In essence, we were I feel, being asked, 'what are we here to do, say, give and exchange?'

                          ...In principle, what was our, 'true' work on earth?

                          While I've yet to post my full answer, I'm of the opinion that today would be a great day to share with the three of you initially what I'm here on earth to do!

                          Anyone else listening is invited to celebrate my stand alongside me if they so choose...

                          I, Terry Mace - AKA - 'Standing-Feather-Talking-Bear'

                          Am here to share, teach, explore and show the people of the world that we operate not in, 'duality' or within a, 'dualistic' universe as apparently we seem to do, but rather, that we have a source and home in the universe which is, 'singular' and without divide.

                          In essence, and restrained linguistically by language and words either written of spoken, simply put I am saying, 'There is only one...'

                          One point of energy, light or focus so unmeasurable, so, indefinable that to even try to conceive such a thing is outside of language or most human being sentient experience...

                          ...And yet, it exists!

                          You see, all three of you are asking, 'how' do we get people to, 'listen?' How do we reach people? Ho do we get them to change', 'metamorphosis' and 'transform' their thinking so that we all, 'get-it'!

                          My answer is simple!

                          You can't!

                          My belief at present...

                          You never will!

                          The only thing achievable, the only hope we have is to work as brothers and sister to experience, singularity...

                          You see, the problem is compounded by yourselves as 'free-thinkers' because you see those around you as 'separate', divided in a vacum. Alone...

                          Thus, alien and not a part of what you say, do or think...

                          Existentially, you're saying, Yes, BUT!

                          In a way, that says, I'm prepared to have a go at, 'saving' the world, however, 'I'm not prepared to be the salvation of the world!'

                          However, what if as a possibility, that very thinking created division?

                          Not intellectually, cognitively or academically but rather at a, 'sub-atomic', and 'quantum' level?

                          A level, so profound that you, me and all others apparently sharing this planet were engaged in a form of, 'energy-diffusion' so large, so big that splitting the atom would be child's play to us.

                          My answer...

                          Teach, show and extend to our, brothers and sister the, 'experience' of a singular, undivided moment outside of time and space!

                          Possible?

                          Absolutely!

                          Once that has been simultaneously achieved, all illusions end, all pain is gone all need is eradicated and seen for what it is...

                          Fear!

                          Or, the absence of, 'Love' so divine that it might initially blind those seekers willing to raise their, 'ego's' sunglasses for just the briefest of moments.

                          Then, discovering blindness to be as much a part of the illusion as, the next shadow and the next shadow after that, we release ourselves from the prison that has and will continue to enslave the world.

                          I'd put it to the three of you and all others listening that my own work and personal hypothesis has merit in as much that all of us at some time or another have experienced this, 'paradigm shift'.

                          That we, as apparent dualistic and separate human-beings have felt at least once in our life, 'ONE'!

                          Question is, who wants to go to heaven?

                          OK!

                          Who wants to go NOW!

                          And there, lies the problem...

                          Our investment in this world is so profound that unless we have the ears to hear, we will forever, be bankrupt.

                          Not financially, not materially.

                          No!

                          Spiritually!

                          So, our real problem with Wealth, Worth and Scarcity is this...

                          ...We don't recognise it as a dream, or more authentically put, a 'bad' dream.

                          Put more dramatically, 'A Nightmare'!

                          However, what is it that's made, waking from the dream so hard, so distant so difficult?

                          My answer, Fear!

                          Fear, that all our investment in this world is little more than a child's illusion, little more than, a shadow on the wall, little more than a dream from which if we so desire we could wake from in an instant.

                          My solution...

                          ...Teach that which we most need to learn'

                          That everyone and everything is little more than the energy we constantly discuss and cogitate here within this forum in one form or another.

                          Question is, are we all prepared to make fluid this energy and release ourselves from the illusion of duality. Because my brothers, that's what you're discussing here today...

                          ...Duality'!

                          And that's my, 'singular' contribution today and for the next several hours...

                          ...comments, questions and enquires as always on a universal postcard

                          Yours in light.

                          Standing-Feather-Talking-Bear - AKA - Terry Mace

                          Tom Wayburn <twayburn@...> wrote:
                          Steve and Jon,

                          Just this minute I sent the following letter to the Pachamama Alliance:

                          Dear Friends,

                          I am an independent scholar devoting his declining years to the best research he has ever done. I have no income and no sponsorship of any kind. Therefore, my results cannot be influenced by ideology. (My own ideas are enough for me.) What I need is help in reaching other people with the powerful messages my computational studies and my investigation into morality contain. Please take a look at my website http://dematerialism.net/ and my latest paper http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html (in which I illustrate the importance of abandoning market conomics*) to determine if I can be of any use to you. I am unable to assist you financially as no one other than my wife is assisting me.

                          *I hope that you agree with me that market economies are intrinsically unsustainable and must be abandoned in favor of planned economies or, better yet, give-away economies. My dilemma is how to convince people that this is true in the face of 116 years of anti-communist propaganda even though it is proved mathematically. To begin with, I can't get them to read http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html. If my spreadsheet simulator could be made into a fascinating computer game, perhaps young people would "accidentally" convince themselves that it is true.

                          Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                          http://dematerialism.net/
                          http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/


                          Tom Wayburn <twayburn@...> wrote:
                          Thanks, Jon Love, I shall be looking into the Pachamama Alliance this very hour. I wondered if anyone else were listening to our conversation. Now I know.

                          Best regards,
                          Tom

                          Jon Love <jonlove@...> wrote:
                          Tom and Steve,

                          As a reader of the posts on this list I have learned a lot and been
                          provoked to critical thinking on many occasions. In the interest of
                          brevity at the moment, I would like to call your attention to a
                          program developed by an organization called "the Pachamama Alliance,"
                          which is a one-day symposium designed to "wake people up" to the
                          "dream" of the modern world, and the web of unexamined assumptions
                          that drive our behavior in ways that produce an unjust, unfulfilling
                          and unsustainable human presence on earth. Check it out here: http://
                          www.pachamama.org/atd/

                          This piece of work does actually reach people, and moves them from
                          denial to action.

                          On another note, there is one aspect of development that actually has
                          been shown to reduce population growth rather than increase it.
                          Notice that the "native replacement rate" (the rate of increase that
                          a country would experience without immigration or emigration) is
                          negative in many industrialized countries. It seems that as infant
                          mortality falls and women's level of eduction rises there is a huge
                          drop in birth rates - the statistical correlation is convincing - It
                          seems women who have alternatives to motherhood to make life
                          meaningful, and who have confidence that their first and second
                          children are more likely to live than to die, make different choices
                          and family size falls rapidly.

                          I would say that it is the green revolution in concert with lack of
                          health care and women's education that has led to the egregious
                          expansion of populations in countries that cannot now provide for
                          them adequately.

                          Thanks,

                          Jon Love

                          On Aug 27, 2006, at 10:54 PM, Tom Wayburn wrote:

                          > Steve,
                          >
                          > I think you are a person who might have some ideas about
                          > ultimately getting people to change and as a prelude to that
                          > getting them to discover certain facts of life that we both feel
                          > they should understand even though their ability to earn a living
                          > may depend upon them not understanding them. In particular, we
                          > need people to understand that economic growth is undesirable
                          > except in the least developed countries that need to grow as we
                          > shrink until we meet somewhere in between.
                          >
                          > I have been singularly unsuccessful in raising the level of
                          > understanding among the people who contribute to this forum even.
                          > Someone needs to teach me how to reach people.
                          >
                          > Tom
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Steve Bosserman wrote:
                          > Hi Tom,
                          >
                          > Thanks for your quick response. If I am following your logic, it
                          > appears
                          > that humanity has a treacherous path ahead regardless of how
                          > plentiful and
                          > benign the energy. This difficulty is due to the “immorality” of
                          > various
                          > systems we humans have put in place to “manage” behavior. Scarcity
                          > spawns
                          > fear and greed. This creates an enormous opportunity for those who are
                          > unabashed at using fear to their advantage. Indeed, they are loath to
                          > change the rules.
                          >
                          > Some suggest that cooperation engenders a sense of abundance, but
                          > as you
                          > mention there may very well not be enough to go around whether
                          > motivation is
                          > cooperative or competitive. Nonetheless, the more scarcity the more
                          > people
                          > are driven by their instincts to perpetuate the species and the
                          > more the
                          > human population grows. In addition, people whose survival is at
                          > risk leave
                          > where they are and migrate elsewhere to seek relief. More often
                          > than not,
                          > their destination is an urban area that is already over-burdened and
                          > maladaptive. In many instances their circumstances are made worse—
                          > and the
                          > world loses.
                          >
                          > This suggests that to reduce the perception that unchecked scarcity
                          > reigns
                          > supreme lessens the pressure to propagate, which slows population
                          > growth and
                          > migration—and the world benefits. Inculcating people in the ways of
                          > cooperation is a very powerful approach in creating that
                          > impression. How to
                          > do that, though, is quite a challenge.
                          >
                          > Each of us engages in the battle against the threat of scarcity on
                          > multiple
                          > fronts: personally, locally, and globally. The arena of meaningful
                          > action
                          > is quite extensive. It is clear you have considerable experience
                          > fighting
                          > the good fight for a more cooperative existence beyond exhorting
                          > others to
                          > do so. What works for you? How do you carry your thinking into
                          > purposeful
                          > action in your life at home, in the Houston area (number two in
                          > urban sprawl
                          > in the USA), and in the larger domains of national and international
                          > politics? What vulnerabilities do you see in the current system
                          > that can be
                          > readily exploited?
                          >
                          > Thanks in advance for your response. There are several ways I have
                          > in mind
                          > to apply your work in turning the dial of cooperation, but I would
                          > rather
                          > hear what you are doing so that what I might propose is aligned
                          > rather than
                          > oblique. Looking forward to it!
                          >
                          > Best regards,
                          >
                          > Steve B.
                          >
                          > _____
                          >
                          > From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com]
                          > On Behalf
                          > Of Tom Wayburn
                          > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 5:27 PM
                          > To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Fossil Fuel, Consumption, and Commerce
                          >
                          > Thanks, Steve, for looking at my work. Clearly, a model of
                          > acquisitiveness,
                          > consumption, and economic growth cannot be sustained in a finite
                          > world. Many
                          > writers have discussed the immorality of a system that is based
                          > upon greed
                          > and fear. It is not just that many will do anything for profit;
                          > but, for
                          > most others, if they do not do whatever they can, they will perish.
                          > Therefore, if capitalism had been based upon an unlimited
                          > sustainable energy
                          > source - or virtually unlimited if, for example, we could harvest
                          > all of the
                          > 185,000 terrawatts radiating the earth from the sun - we would
                          > still be in
                          > enormous difficulties of a moral nature even supposing we could
                          > escape the
                          > earth whose large distances from other habitable planets
                          > constitutes a sort
                          > of quarantine of man's corrupted nature from contact with other
                          > sentient
                          > beings who might suffer immeasurably from contact with human beings.
                          >
                          > In Chapter 2 of my book I made an outline of some of the likely
                          > effects of a
                          > plentiful energy scenario:
                          >
                          > from http://dematerialis
                          >
                          > m.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170713
                          >
                          > Drawbacks and Advantages of a Large Energy Budget
                          > It is not necessary to prove that every technology capable of
                          > supplying
                          > plentiful high-grade energy must fail. It is clear that plentiful
                          > energy
                          > would not be a blessing in a materialistic world. When I was first
                          > told of
                          > cold fusion, I hoped it would turn out to be a failure. The first
                          > thing that
                          > popped into my head was traffic on the interstates multiplied a
                          > hundred-fold
                          > all over the globe. Do we really want to turn the world into Loop 610?
                          >
                          > On the other hand, in a cooperative world, (I have claimed) energy
                          > would be
                          > used wisely as there would be no incentive to use it selfishly and
                          > stupidly.
                          > (You see; I, too, make use of incentive arguments that presume some
                          > knowledge of human nature. I claim that the knowledge I profess has
                          > a better
                          > basis in fact than theories that deny intrinsic motivation. After
                          > all, I am
                          > claiming only what everyone believes. We have never given intrinsic
                          > motivation a chance, but we can see for ourselves – even feel for
                          > ourselves
                          > – the power of intrinsic motivation when it is allowed to function.)
                          >
                          > For a change, I shall present only an outline of the drawbacks and
                          > advantages of a plentiful (high-grade) energy budget – even though
                          > I believe
                          > that, unless the population be reduced considerably, energy shall
                          > continue
                          > to be scarce. Thus, I haven’t much hope for a large population;
                          > however, a
                          > small population might encounter serious obstacles too. Perhaps a
                          > small
                          > population would have difficulty harvesting even a large supply of
                          > biomass
                          > and scarcity would persist. As far as those large readily available
                          > fossil-fuel reserves are concerned, soon they shall be gone forever.
                          >
                          > Outline of Likely Effects of a Plentiful Energy Budget under
                          > Contrasting
                          > Social Conditions
                          >
                          > I. Wrongful Use ( competition for wealth and power)
                          > A. Health risk and discomfort
                          > 1. chemical and radiative pollution
                          > 2. space pollution (junk in outer space)
                          > 3. noise
                          > 4. light pollution (we can’t see the stars, which is all we wanted
                          > of them)
                          > 5. information pollution (lies, propaganda, drivel)
                          > 6. excessive motion leading to stress
                          > 7. crowding
                          > 8. disappearance of wilderness
                          > 9. extinctions of species
                          > 10. population growth
                          > 11. ugliness
                          > 12. urbanization
                          > a. garbage
                          > b. sewage
                          > 13. crime
                          > 14. insanity
                          > 15. etc.
                          > B. Useless consumer products and deceptive marketing
                          > C. More junkpiles and less space
                          > D. Wasted effort
                          > E. Unpleasant jobs
                          > F. CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH AND POWER
                          > G. TOTALITARIANISM
                          > H. WAR
                          > II. Proper Uses (cooperation)
                          > A. Population control
                          > B. Pollution control
                          > 1. Purification of all waste streams
                          > 2. Separation and recycle of all junk
                          > C. Decentralization (deurbanization)
                          > D. Mass communication
                          > E. Equality of wealth, power, and fame
                          > F. Abundant living without excessive work, perhaps none for people
                          > who hate
                          > work. Of course, many people will work on personal projects
                          > interesting to
                          > themselves only, one of which might save the world in some easily
                          > imagined
                          > scenario.
                          > G. Etc.
                          >
                          > [Note in proof (1-26-97). Even supposing that we have abandoned
                          > materialism,
                          > an excessively lavish emergy supply will only make it harder to
                          > abide by the
                          > spirit and the letter of the social contract derived from our
                          > minimal proper
                          > religion. Overconsumption and population growth might be hard to
                          > resist.
                          > Nevertheless, in keeping with the view of humanity that, in Chapter
                          > 4 of
                          > this essay, is assumed to be a good enough approximation to the
                          > correct
                          > view, I shall continue to trust humanity to do the right thing.
                          > Undoubtedly,
                          > this point is moot as emergy will always be scarce. In case it
                          > turns out
                          > that I am wrong, I hope future generations forgive my lack of
                          > prescience, as
                          > I forgive past and present generations who can’t read the future or
                          > who
                          > can’t see the world as it actually is. Remember, many of you have
                          > acted (or
                          > continue to act) unwisely; however, I will have acted prudently. It is
                          > better to have planned for a calamity that doesn’t occur than not
                          > to have
                          > prepared
                          > for one that does!]
                          >
                          > [end of selection from Chapter 2]
                          >
                          > I hope this helps to clarify my position.
                          >
                          > Best regards,
                          > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                          >
                          > Steve Bosserman
                          > yahoo.com> wrote:
                          > Hi Tom,
                          >
                          > In reading your treatise about "dematerialism," your deep analysis
                          > shows a
                          > profound level of commitment to giving the issues surrounding our
                          > choices
                          > about what, how much, and in what way we consume a very thorough
                          > investigation. However, this prompts a question. It is my
                          > impression that
                          > you are associating the use of fossil fuel (heading toward inevitable
                          > depletion and polluting the environment more and more along the
                          > way), with
                          > consumption (unchecked materialism), and commerce (in this case, the
                          > confluence of capitalism, finance, and industry spurring unnecessary
                          > competition, wastefulness of natural and human resources, and
                          > greediness to
                          > accumulate excessive wealth at the expense of countless others). If my
                          > understanding is correct, under what conditions would we be living
                          > now if,
                          > through some miracle of development 300 years ago, our energy needs
                          > had been
                          > and continue to be met by solar power (as an example) in lieu of
                          > fossil
                          > fuel? To ask the question another way, is it your opinion that the
                          > phenomena of consumption and commerce as experienced today are the
                          > inevitable outcomes of flawed systems that doom us to destruction
                          > irrespective of the energy source used to drive technological
                          > advancement OR
                          > did the use of fossil fuel distort the functionality of plausible
                          > systems to
                          > behave in undesirable ways? This may be covered in your paper, but
                          > if so, I
                          > missed it. Thanks in advance for your consideration.
                          >
                          > Best regards,
                          >
                          > Steve B.
                          >
                          > _____
                          >
                          > From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                          > [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou
                          > ps.com] On
                          > Behalf
                          > Of Tom Wayburn
                          > Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 10:39 PM
                          > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                          > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Steve Bosserman, good to hear from you!
                          >
                          > Andrius,
                          >
                          > I have gone to a lot of trouble to show arithmetically that business,
                          > markets, buying and selling, the profit motive are inconsistent with
                          > sustainability. I understand that not everyone on this list can
                          > afford to
                          > forego earning money; however, all of us should be aware that most
                          > things we
                          > do to earn money set back the cause of sustainability in one way or
                          > another
                          > and eventually must be rejected by a society that hopes to avoid a
                          > massive
                          > die-off. I get tired of pointing out the papers and computational
                          > studies I
                          > have already finished that prove these points. I continue work on
                          > the Mark
                          > II Economy to produce an educational tool that might be used or
                          > improved
                          > upon to create a wider understanding of the types of political
                          > changes that
                          > sustainability requires.
                          >
                          > Tom
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                          > Blog: http://dematerialis
                          > m.blogspot.com/
                          > Website: http://dematerialis m.net/
                          > Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post:
                          > twayburn@wt. net
                          > If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to
                          > twayburn@yahoo.
                          > com .
                          >
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                          > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
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                        • Tom Wayburn
                          Terry, Thank you for the beautiful letter. The unified view of the World corresponds somewhat to the Universe as a hologram, an idea that is gaining currency
                          Message 12 of 27 , Aug 29, 2006
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                            Terry,

                            Thank you for the beautiful letter. The unified view of the World corresponds somewhat to the Universe as a hologram, an idea that is gaining currency these days. Is this unified world the only world? Is the World wherein you or I experience Heaven the only World or is there an infinitude of other Worlds, in some of which people experience Heaven and in some of which children starve to death? Or is the World what it is regardless of who is in it and what they think?

                            Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                            http://dematerialism.net/


                            P.S. You may be right about not ever being able to reach people, which means that all of us world betterers are no better than the single-issue activist who earns a living and a reputation pursuing a goal that he will never reach and who has more to lose than other people if he did. We may not be in it for the money, but we are in it for something.



                            Terry Mace <terrytimebroker@...> wrote:
                            Dear Tom, Steve and Jon... ...and all others following this link/thread,

                            I've read with interest all of the comments over the last several days and have decided to offer my assistance once again into our online community and arena.

                            Your comments have not gone unnoticed!

                            Today, I have something to say!

                            For those of you who know me and have taken the time to engage me you will know that often I am 'radical' even 'raw' with my thoughts, comments or actions.

                            As a metaphor, I liken myself humbly to the two grains of sand which agitate the oyster within, thus, birthing that most precious of peals, wisdom.

                            Whatever you views on the following comments, concepts and ideas please be assured of this...

                            ...I am a Brother...

                            I've picked up scientifically, philosophically and sociologically most of what has been said and humbly, I'd say I understand most of what has been positioned, hypothesised and spoken off, however, for me one 'core' thing remains unsaid, unspoken of...

                            ...Spirit!'

                            'What of our Spiritual Worth, Our Spiritual Economy, Our Spiritual Abundance, Our Spiritual Resources?'

                            Some posts ago, I brought up this subject and threw it like a pebble into our waters...

                            ...Did, the ripples reach anyone?

                            No one answered, responded or commented...

                            And so, I begin again...

                            Some posts ago we were also asked by our core facilitators to consider what our work in life was or could be...

                            ...In essence, we were I feel, being asked, 'what are we here to do, say, give and exchange?'

                            ...In principle, what was our, 'true' work on earth?

                            While I've yet to post my full answer, I'm of the opinion that today would be a great day to share with the three of you initially what I'm here on earth to do!

                            Anyone else listening is invited to celebrate my stand alongside me if they so choose...

                            I, Terry Mace - AKA - 'Standing-Feather-Talking-Bear'

                            Am here to share, teach, explore and show the people of the world that we operate not in, 'duality' or within a, 'dualistic' universe as apparently we seem to do, but rather, that we have a source and home in the universe which is, 'singular' and without divide.

                            In essence, and restrained linguistically by language and words either written of spoken, simply put I am saying, 'There is only one...'

                            One point of energy, light or focus so unmeasurable, so, indefinable that to even try to conceive such a thing is outside of language or most human being sentient experience...

                            ...And yet, it exists!

                            You see, all three of you are asking, 'how' do we get people to, 'listen?' How do we reach people? Ho do we get them to change', 'metamorphosis' and 'transform' their thinking so that we all, 'get-it'!

                            My answer is simple!

                            You can't!

                            My belief at present...

                            You never will!

                            The only thing achievable, the only hope we have is to work as brothers and sister to experience, singularity...

                            You see, the problem is compounded by yourselves as 'free-thinkers' because you see those around you as 'separate', divided in a vacum. Alone...

                            Thus, alien and not a part of what you say, do or think...

                            Existentially, you're saying, Yes, BUT!

                            In a way, that says, I'm prepared to have a go at, 'saving' the world, however, 'I'm not prepared to be the salvation of the world!'

                            However, what if as a possibility, that very thinking created division?

                            Not intellectually, cognitively or academically but rather at a, 'sub-atomic', and 'quantum' level?

                            A level, so profound that you, me and all others apparently sharing this planet were engaged in a form of, 'energy-diffusion' so large, so big that splitting the atom would be child's play to us.

                            My answer...

                            Teach, show and extend to our, brothers and sister the, 'experience' of a singular, undivided moment outside of time and space!

                            Possible?

                            Absolutely!

                            Once that has been simultaneously achieved, all illusions end, all pain is gone all need is eradicated and seen for what it is...

                            Fear!

                            Or, the absence of, 'Love' so divine that it might initially blind those seekers willing to raise their, 'ego's' sunglasses for just the briefest of moments.

                            Then, discovering blindness to be as much a part of the illusion as, the next shadow and the next shadow after that, we release ourselves from the prison that has and will continue to enslave the world.

                            I'd put it to the three of you and all others listening that my own work and personal hypothesis has merit in as much that all of us at some time or another have experienced this, 'paradigm shift'.

                            That we, as apparent dualistic and separate human-beings have felt at least once in our life, 'ONE'!

                            Question is, who wants to go to heaven?

                            OK!

                            Who wants to go NOW!

                            And there, lies the problem...

                            Our investment in this world is so profound that unless we have the ears to hear, we will forever, be bankrupt.

                            Not financially, not materially.

                            No!

                            Spiritually!

                            So, our real problem with Wealth, Worth and Scarcity is this...

                            ...We don't recognise it as a dream, or more authentically put, a 'bad' dream.

                            Put more dramatically, 'A Nightmare'!

                            However, what is it that's made, waking from the dream so hard, so distant so difficult?

                            My answer, Fear!

                            Fear, that all our investment in this world is little more than a child's illusion, little more than, a shadow on the wall, little more than a dream from which if we so desire we could wake from in an instant.

                            My solution...

                            ...Teach that which we most need to learn'

                            That everyone and everything is little more than the energy we constantly discuss and cogitate here within this forum in one form or another.

                            Question is, are we all prepared to make fluid this energy and release ourselves from the illusion of duality. Because my brothers, that's what you're discussing here today...

                            ...Duality'!

                            And that's my, 'singular' contribution today and for the next several hours...

                            ...comments, questions and enquires as always on a universal postcard

                            Yours in light.

                            Standing-Feather-Talking-Bear - AKA - Terry Mace

                            Tom Wayburn <twayburn@...> wrote:
                            Steve and Jon,

                            Just this minute I sent the following letter to the Pachamama Alliance:

                            Dear Friends,

                            I am an independent scholar devoting his declining years to the best research he has ever done. I have no income and no sponsorship of any kind. Therefore, my results cannot be influenced by ideology. (My own ideas are enough for me.) What I need is help in reaching other people with the powerful messages my computational studies and my investigation into morality contain. Please take a look at my website http://dematerialism.net/ and my latest paper http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html (in which I illustrate the importance of abandoning market conomics*) to determine if I can be of any use to you. I am unable to assist you financially as no one other than my wife is assisting me.

                            *I hope that you agree with me that market economies are intrinsically unsustainable and must be abandoned in favor of planned economies or, better yet, give-away economies. My dilemma is how to convince people that this is true in the face of 116 years of anti-communist propaganda even though it is proved mathematically. To begin with, I can't get them to read http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html. If my spreadsheet simulator could be made into a fascinating computer game, perhaps young people would "accidentally" convince themselves that it is true.

                            Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                            http://dematerialism.net/
                            http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/

                            Tom Wayburn <twayburn@...> wrote:
                            Thanks, Jon Love, I shall be looking into the Pachamama Alliance this very hour. I wondered if anyone else were listening to our conversation. Now I know.

                            Best regards,
                            Tom

                            Jon Love <jonlove@...> wrote:
                            Tom and Steve,

                            As a reader of the posts on this list I have learned a lot and been
                            provoked to critical thinking on many occasions. In the interest of
                            brevity at the moment, I would like to call your attention to a
                            program developed by an organization called "the Pachamama Alliance,"
                            which is a one-day symposium designed to "wake people up" to the
                            "dream" of the modern world, and the web of unexamined assumptions
                            that drive our behavior in ways that produce an unjust, unfulfilling
                            and unsustainable human presence on earth. Check it out here: http://
                            www.pachamama.org/atd/

                            This piece of work does actually reach people, and moves them from
                            denial to action.

                            On another note, there is one aspect of development that actually has
                            been shown to reduce population growth rather than increase it.
                            Notice that the "native replacement rate" (the rate of increase that
                            a country would experience without immigration or emigration) is
                            negative in many industrialized countries. It seems that as infant
                            mortality falls and women's level of eduction rises there is a huge
                            drop in birth rates - the statistical correlation is convincing - It
                            seems women who have alternatives to motherhood to make life
                            meaningful, and who have confidence that their first and second
                            children are more likely to live than to die, make different choices
                            and family size falls rapidly.

                            I would say that it is the green revolution in concert with lack of
                            health care and women's education that has led to the egregious
                            expansion of populations in countries that cannot now provide for
                            them adequately.

                            Thanks,

                            Jon Love

                            On Aug 27, 2006, at 10:54 PM, Tom Wayburn wrote:

                            > Steve,
                            >
                            > I think you are a person who might have some ideas about
                            > ultimately getting people to change and as a prelude to that
                            > getting them to discover certain facts of life that we both feel
                            > they should understand even though their ability to earn a living
                            > may depend upon them not understanding them. In particular, we
                            > need people to understand that economic growth is undesirable
                            > except in the least developed countries that need to grow as we
                            > shrink until we meet somewhere in between.
                            >
                            > I have been singularly unsuccessful in raising the level of
                            > understanding among the people who contribute to this forum even.
                            > Someone needs to teach me how to reach people.
                            >
                            > Tom
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Steve Bosserman wrote:
                            > Hi Tom,
                            >
                            > Thanks for your quick response. If I am following your logic, it
                            > appears
                            > that humanity has a treacherous path ahead regardless of how
                            > plentiful and
                            > benign the energy. This difficulty is due to the “immorality” of
                            > various
                            > systems we humans have put in place to “manage” behavior. Scarcity
                            > spawns
                            > fear and greed. This creates an enormous opportunity for those who are
                            > unabashed at using fear to their advantage. Indeed, they are loath to
                            > change the rules.
                            >
                            > Some suggest that cooperation engenders a sense of abundance, but
                            > as you
                            > mention there may very well not be enough to go around whether
                            > motivation is
                            > cooperative or competitive. Nonetheless, the more scarcity the more
                            > people
                            > are driven by their instincts to perpetuate the species and the
                            > more the
                            > human population grows. In addition, people whose survival is at
                            > risk leave
                            > where they are and migrate elsewhere to seek relief. More often
                            > than not,
                            > their destination is an urban area that is already over-burdened and
                            > maladaptive. In many instances their circumstances are made worse—
                            > and the
                            > world loses.
                            >
                            > This suggests that to reduce the perception that unchecked scarcity
                            > reigns
                            > supreme lessens the pressure to propagate, which slows population
                            > growth and
                            > migration—and the world benefits. Inculcating people in the ways of
                            > cooperation is a very powerful approach in creating that
                            > impression. How to
                            > do that, though, is quite a challenge.
                            >
                            > Each of us engages in the battle against the threat of scarcity on
                            > multiple
                            > fronts: personally, locally, and globally. The arena of meaningful
                            > action
                            > is quite extensive. It is clear you have considerable experience
                            > fighting
                            > the good fight for a more cooperative existence beyond exhorting
                            > others to
                            > do so. What works for you? How do you carry your thinking into
                            > purposeful
                            > action in your life at home, in the Houston area (number two in
                            > urban sprawl
                            > in the USA), and in the larger domains of national and international
                            > politics? What vulnerabilities do you see in the current system
                            > that can be
                            > readily exploited?
                            >
                            > Thanks in advance for your response. There are several ways I have
                            > in mind
                            > to apply your work in turning the dial of cooperation, but I would
                            > rather
                            > hear what you are doing so that what I might propose is aligned
                            > rather than
                            > oblique. Looking forward to it!
                            >
                            > Best regards,
                            >
                            > Steve B.
                            >
                            > _____
                            >
                            > From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com]
                            > On Behalf
                            > Of Tom Wayburn
                            > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 5:27 PM
                            > To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Fossil Fuel, Consumption, and Commerce
                            >
                            > Thanks, Steve, for looking at my work. Clearly, a model of
                            > acquisitiveness,
                            > consumption, and economic growth cannot be sustained in a finite
                            > world. Many
                            > writers have discussed the immorality of a system that is based
                            > upon greed
                            > and fear. It is not just that many will do anything for profit;
                            > but, for
                            > most others, if they do not do whatever they can, they will perish.
                            > Therefore, if capitalism had been based upon an unlimited
                            > sustainable energy
                            > source - or virtually unlimited if, for example, we could harvest
                            > all of the
                            > 185,000 terrawatts radiating the earth from the sun - we would
                            > still be in
                            > enormous difficulties of a moral nature even supposing we could
                            > escape the
                            > earth whose large distances from other habitable planets
                            > constitutes a sort
                            > of quarantine of man's corrupted nature from contact with other
                            > sentient
                            > beings who might suffer immeasurably from contact with human beings.
                            >
                            > In Chapter 2 of my book I made an outline of some of the likely
                            > effects of a
                            > plentiful energy scenario:
                            >
                            > from http://dematerialis
                            >
                            > m.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170713
                            >
                            > Drawbacks and Advantages of a Large Energy Budget
                            > It is not necessary to prove that every technology capable of
                            > supplying
                            > plentiful high-grade energy must fail. It is clear that plentiful
                            > energy
                            > would not be a blessing in a materialistic world. When I was first
                            > told of
                            > cold fusion, I hoped it would turn out to be a failure. The first
                            > thing that
                            > popped into my head was traffic on the interstates multiplied a
                            > hundred-fold
                            > all over the globe. Do we really want to turn the world into Loop 610?
                            >
                            > On the other hand, in a cooperative world, (I have claimed) energy
                            > would be
                            > used wisely as there would be no incentive to use it selfishly and
                            > stupidly.
                            > (You see; I, too, make use of incentive arguments that presume some
                            > knowledge of human nature. I claim that the knowledge I profess has
                            > a better
                            > basis in fact than theories that deny intrinsic motivation. After
                            > all, I am
                            > claiming only what everyone believes. We have never given intrinsic
                            > motivation a chance, but we can see for ourselves – even feel for
                            > ourselves
                            > – the power of intrinsic motivation when it is allowed to function.)
                            >
                            > For a change, I shall present only an outline of the drawbacks and
                            > advantages of a plentiful (high-grade) energy budget – even though
                            > I believe
                            > that, unless the population be reduced considerably, energy shall
                            > continue
                            > to be scarce. Thus, I haven’t much hope for a large population;
                            > however, a
                            > small population might encounter serious obstacles too. Perhaps a
                            > small
                            > population would have difficulty harvesting even a large supply of
                            > biomass
                            > and scarcity would persist. As far as those large readily available
                            > fossil-fuel reserves are concerned, soon they shall be gone forever.
                            >
                            > Outline of Likely Effects of a Plentiful Energy Budget under
                            > Contrasting
                            > Social Conditions
                            >
                            > I. Wrongful Use ( competition for wealth and power)
                            > A. Health risk and discomfort
                            > 1. chemical and radiative pollution
                            > 2. space pollution (junk in outer space)
                            > 3. noise
                            > 4. light pollution (we can’t see the stars, which is all we wanted
                            > of them)
                            > 5. information pollution (lies, propaganda, drivel)
                            > 6. excessive motion leading to stress
                            > 7. crowding
                            > 8. disappearance of wilderness
                            > 9. extinctions of species
                            > 10. population growth
                            > 11. ugliness
                            > 12. urbanization
                            > a. garbage
                            > b. sewage
                            > 13. crime
                            > 14. insanity
                            > 15. etc.
                            > B. Useless consumer products and deceptive marketing
                            > C. More junkpiles and less space
                            > D. Wasted effort
                            > E. Unpleasant jobs
                            > F. CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH AND POWER
                            > G. TOTALITARIANISM
                            > H. WAR
                            > II. Proper Uses (cooperation)
                            > A. Population control
                            > B. Pollution control
                            > 1. Purification of all waste streams
                            > 2. Separation and recycle of all junk
                            > C. Decentralization (deurbanization)
                            > D. Mass communication
                            > E. Equality of wealth, power, and fame
                            > F. Abundant living without excessive work, perhaps none for people
                            > who hate
                            > work. Of course, many people will work on personal projects
                            > interesting to
                            > themselves only, one of which might save the world in some easily
                            > imagined
                            > scenario.
                            > G. Etc.
                            >
                            > [Note in proof (1-26-97). Even supposing that we have abandoned
                            > materialism,
                            > an excessively lavish emergy supply will only make it harder to
                            > abide by the
                            > spirit and the letter of the social contract derived from our
                            > minimal proper
                            > religion. Overconsumption and population growth might be hard to
                            > resist.
                            > Nevertheless, in keeping with the view of humanity that, in Chapter
                            > 4 of
                            > this essay, is assumed to be a good enough approximation to the
                            > correct
                            > view, I shall continue to trust humanity to do the right thing.
                            > Undoubtedly,
                            > this point is moot as emergy will always be scarce. In case it
                            > turns out
                            > that I am wrong, I hope future generations forgive my lack of
                            > prescience, as
                            > I forgive past and present generations who can’t read the future or
                            > who
                            > can’t see the world as it actually is. Remember, many of you have
                            > acted (or
                            > continue to act) unwisely; however, I will have acted prudently. It is
                            > better to have planned for a calamity that doesn’t occur than not
                            > to have
                            > prepared
                            > for one that does!]
                            >
                            > [end of selection from Chapter 2]
                            >
                            > I hope this helps to clarify my position.
                            >
                            > Best regards,
                            > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                            >
                            > Steve Bosserman
                            > yahoo.com> wrote:
                            > Hi Tom,
                            >
                            > In reading your treatise about "dematerialism," your deep analysis
                            > shows a
                            > profound level of commitment to giving the issues surrounding our
                            > choices
                            > about what, how much, and in what way we consume a very thorough
                            > investigation. However, this prompts a question. It is my
                            > impression that
                            > you are associating the use of fossil fuel (heading toward inevitable
                            > depletion and polluting the environment more and more along the
                            > way), with
                            > consumption (unchecked materialism), and commerce (in this case, the
                            > confluence of capitalism, finance, and industry spurring unnecessary
                            > competition, wastefulness of natural and human resources, and
                            > greediness to
                            > accumulate excessive wealth at the expense of countless others). If my
                            > understanding is correct, under what conditions would we be living
                            > now if,
                            > through some miracle of development 300 years ago, our energy needs
                            > had been
                            > and continue to be met by solar power (as an example) in lieu of
                            > fossil
                            > fuel? To ask the question another way, is it your opinion that the
                            > phenomena of consumption and commerce as experienced today are the
                            > inevitable outcomes of flawed systems that doom us to destruction
                            > irrespective of the energy source used to drive technological
                            > advancement OR
                            > did the use of fossil fuel distort the functionality of plausible
                            > systems to
                            > behave in undesirable ways? This may be covered in your paper, but
                            > if so, I
                            > missed it. Thanks in advance for your consideration.
                            >
                            > Best regards,
                            >
                            > Steve B.
                            >
                            > _____
                            >
                            > From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                            > [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou
                            > ps.com] On
                            > Behalf
                            > Of Tom Wayburn
                            > Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 10:39 PM
                            > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                            > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Steve Bosserman, good to hear from you!
                            >
                            > Andrius,
                            >
                            > I have gone to a lot of trouble to show arithmetically that business,
                            > markets, buying and selling, the profit motive are inconsistent with
                            > sustainability. I understand that not everyone on this list can
                            > afford to
                            > forego earning money; however, all of us should be aware that most
                            > things we
                            > do to earn money set back the cause of sustainability in one way or
                            > another
                            > and eventually must be rejected by a society that hopes to avoid a
                            > massive
                            > die-off. I get tired of pointing out the papers and computational
                            > studies I
                            > have already finished that prove these points. I continue work on
                            > the Mark
                            > II Economy to produce an educational tool that might be used or
                            > improved
                            > upon to create a wider understanding of the types of political
                            > changes that
                            > sustainability requires.
                            >
                            > Tom
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                            > Blog: http://dematerialis
                            > m.blogspot.com/
                            > Website: http://dematerialis m.net/
                            > Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post:
                            > twayburn@wt. net
                            > If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to
                            > twayburn@yahoo.
                            > com .
                            >
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                          • Terry Mace
                            And thank you Tom for all you are and all you do. We will undoubtedly talk and share again... ...It s late now and I have to work tomorrow, however, I d say
                            Message 13 of 27 , Aug 29, 2006
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                              And thank you Tom for all you are and all you do. We will undoubtedly talk and share again... ...It's late now and I have to work tomorrow, however, I'd say that my own thoughts and experience to date with stepping outside of time and space is that it's not about one world or another, but rather, that all our thoughts which create dualistic substance are illusory in nature, primarily driven by the ego's need for survival. In essence, the question I often ask others and myself to explore is, 'If we were not ego, what would we be?' If it is, 'ego' which is the driver and dualistic creator, what would occur if we removed our focus from the ego for the briefest of moments, outside time and space. John's post just about says it all. I'm reminded of a story by, Dr Gerald Jampolsky, the founder of, Attitudinal Healing. I've included the link below. He found himself under siege from a clinically insane inmate when he entered the ward were he was consulting. However, instead
                              of reacting as most of us would do with fear, he came from unconditional love. He told the patient calmly, 'look I'm as scared as you are, perhaps we can look at this differently together?' In that moment, the patient calmed, and apologised for his behaviour. Having kept several others hostage for many hours he released every one without harm. He later went on to be released. Because, Jampolsky could see the illusion of separateness for the briefest of moments, the divide healed itself and unified. Thus, a miracle occurred. Tom, I unashamedly believe in miracles. Thanks for being the light of the world!

                              Your Brother, Terry

                              Tom Wayburn <twayburn@...> wrote:
                              Terry,

                              Thank you for the beautiful letter. The unified view of the World corresponds somewhat to the Universe as a hologram, an idea that is gaining currency these days. Is this unified world the only world? Is the World wherein you or I experience Heaven the only World or is there an infinitude of other Worlds, in some of which people experience Heaven and in some of which children starve to death? Or is the World what it is regardless of who is in it and what they think?

                              Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                              http://dematerialism.net/


                              P.S. You may be right about not ever being able to reach people, which means that all of us world betterers are no better than the single-issue activist who earns a living and a reputation pursuing a goal that he will never reach and who has more to lose than other people if he did. We may not be in it for the money, but we are in it for something.



                              Terry Mace <terrytimebroker@...> wrote:
                              Dear Tom, Steve and Jon... ...and all others following this link/thread,

                              I've read with interest all of the comments over the last several days and have decided to offer my assistance once again into our online community and arena.

                              Your comments have not gone unnoticed!

                              Today, I have something to say!

                              For those of you who know me and have taken the time to engage me you will know that often I am 'radical' even 'raw' with my thoughts, comments or actions.

                              As a metaphor, I liken myself humbly to the two grains of sand which agitate the oyster within, thus, birthing that most precious of peals, wisdom.

                              Whatever you views on the following comments, concepts and ideas please be assured of this...

                              ...I am a Brother...

                              I've picked up scientifically, philosophically and sociologically most of what has been said and humbly, I'd say I understand most of what has been positioned, hypothesised and spoken off, however, for me one 'core' thing remains unsaid, unspoken of...

                              ...Spirit!'

                              'What of our Spiritual Worth, Our Spiritual Economy, Our Spiritual Abundance, Our Spiritual Resources?'

                              Some posts ago, I brought up this subject and threw it like a pebble into our waters...

                              ...Did, the ripples reach anyone?

                              No one answered, responded or commented...

                              And so, I begin again...

                              Some posts ago we were also asked by our core facilitators to consider what our work in life was or could be...

                              ...In essence, we were I feel, being asked, 'what are we here to do, say, give and exchange?'

                              ...In principle, what was our, 'true' work on earth?

                              While I've yet to post my full answer, I'm of the opinion that today would be a great day to share with the three of you initially what I'm here on earth to do!

                              Anyone else listening is invited to celebrate my stand alongside me if they so choose...

                              I, Terry Mace - AKA - 'Standing-Feather-Talking-Bear'

                              Am here to share, teach, explore and show the people of the world that we operate not in, 'duality' or within a, 'dualistic' universe as apparently we seem to do, but rather, that we have a source and home in the universe which is, 'singular' and without divide.

                              In essence, and restrained linguistically by language and words either written of spoken, simply put I am saying, 'There is only one...'

                              One point of energy, light or focus so unmeasurable, so, indefinable that to even try to conceive such a thing is outside of language or most human being sentient experience...

                              ...And yet, it exists!

                              You see, all three of you are asking, 'how' do we get people to, 'listen?' How do we reach people? Ho do we get them to change', 'metamorphosis' and 'transform' their thinking so that we all, 'get-it'!

                              My answer is simple!

                              You can't!

                              My belief at present...

                              You never will!

                              The only thing achievable, the only hope we have is to work as brothers and sister to experience, singularity...

                              You see, the problem is compounded by yourselves as 'free-thinkers' because you see those around you as 'separate', divided in a vacum. Alone...

                              Thus, alien and not a part of what you say, do or think...

                              Existentially, you're saying, Yes, BUT!

                              In a way, that says, I'm prepared to have a go at, 'saving' the world, however, 'I'm not prepared to be the salvation of the world!'

                              However, what if as a possibility, that very thinking created division?

                              Not intellectually, cognitively or academically but rather at a, 'sub-atomic', and 'quantum' level?

                              A level, so profound that you, me and all others apparently sharing this planet were engaged in a form of, 'energy-diffusion' so large, so big that splitting the atom would be child's play to us.

                              My answer...

                              Teach, show and extend to our, brothers and sister the, 'experience' of a singular, undivided moment outside of time and space!

                              Possible?

                              Absolutely!

                              Once that has been simultaneously achieved, all illusions end, all pain is gone all need is eradicated and seen for what it is...

                              Fear!

                              Or, the absence of, 'Love' so divine that it might initially blind those seekers willing to raise their, 'ego's' sunglasses for just the briefest of moments.

                              Then, discovering blindness to be as much a part of the illusion as, the next shadow and the next shadow after that, we release ourselves from the prison that has and will continue to enslave the world.

                              I'd put it to the three of you and all others listening that my own work and personal hypothesis has merit in as much that all of us at some time or another have experienced this, 'paradigm shift'.

                              That we, as apparent dualistic and separate human-beings have felt at least once in our life, 'ONE'!

                              Question is, who wants to go to heaven?

                              OK!

                              Who wants to go NOW!

                              And there, lies the problem...

                              Our investment in this world is so profound that unless we have the ears to hear, we will forever, be bankrupt.

                              Not financially, not materially.

                              No!

                              Spiritually!

                              So, our real problem with Wealth, Worth and Scarcity is this...

                              ...We don't recognise it as a dream, or more authentically put, a 'bad' dream.

                              Put more dramatically, 'A Nightmare'!

                              However, what is it that's made, waking from the dream so hard, so distant so difficult?

                              My answer, Fear!

                              Fear, that all our investment in this world is little more than a child's illusion, little more than, a shadow on the wall, little more than a dream from which if we so desire we could wake from in an instant.

                              My solution...

                              ...Teach that which we most need to learn'

                              That everyone and everything is little more than the energy we constantly discuss and cogitate here within this forum in one form or another.

                              Question is, are we all prepared to make fluid this energy and release ourselves from the illusion of duality. Because my brothers, that's what you're discussing here today...

                              ...Duality'!

                              And that's my, 'singular' contribution today and for the next several hours...

                              ...comments, questions and enquires as always on a universal postcard

                              Yours in light.

                              Standing-Feather-Talking-Bear - AKA - Terry Mace

                              Tom Wayburn <twayburn@...> wrote:
                              Steve and Jon,

                              Just this minute I sent the following letter to the Pachamama Alliance:

                              Dear Friends,

                              I am an independent scholar devoting his declining years to the best research he has ever done. I have no income and no sponsorship of any kind. Therefore, my results cannot be influenced by ideology. (My own ideas are enough for me.) What I need is help in reaching other people with the powerful messages my computational studies and my investigation into morality contain. Please take a look at my website http://dematerialism.net/ and my latest paper http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html (in which I illustrate the importance of abandoning market conomics*) to determine if I can be of any use to you. I am unable to assist you financially as no one other than my wife is assisting me.

                              *I hope that you agree with me that market economies are intrinsically unsustainable and must be abandoned in favor of planned economies or, better yet, give-away economies. My dilemma is how to convince people that this is true in the face of 116 years of anti-communist propaganda even though it is proved mathematically. To begin with, I can't get them to read http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html. If my spreadsheet simulator could be made into a fascinating computer game, perhaps young people would "accidentally" convince themselves that it is true.

                              Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                              http://dematerialism.net/
                              http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/

                              Tom Wayburn <twayburn@...> wrote:
                              Thanks, Jon Love, I shall be looking into the Pachamama Alliance this very hour. I wondered if anyone else were listening to our conversation. Now I know.

                              Best regards,
                              Tom

                              Jon Love <jonlove@...> wrote:
                              Tom and Steve,

                              As a reader of the posts on this list I have learned a lot and been
                              provoked to critical thinking on many occasions. In the interest of
                              brevity at the moment, I would like to call your attention to a
                              program developed by an organization called "the Pachamama Alliance,"
                              which is a one-day symposium designed to "wake people up" to the
                              "dream" of the modern world, and the web of unexamined assumptions
                              that drive our behavior in ways that produce an unjust, unfulfilling
                              and unsustainable human presence on earth. Check it out here: http://
                              www.pachamama.org/atd/

                              This piece of work does actually reach people, and moves them from
                              denial to action.

                              On another note, there is one aspect of development that actually has
                              been shown to reduce population growth rather than increase it.
                              Notice that the "native replacement rate" (the rate of increase that
                              a country would experience without immigration or emigration) is
                              negative in many industrialized countries. It seems that as infant
                              mortality falls and women's level of eduction rises there is a huge
                              drop in birth rates - the statistical correlation is convincing - It
                              seems women who have alternatives to motherhood to make life
                              meaningful, and who have confidence that their first and second
                              children are more likely to live than to die, make different choices
                              and family size falls rapidly.

                              I would say that it is the green revolution in concert with lack of
                              health care and women's education that has led to the egregious
                              expansion of populations in countries that cannot now provide for
                              them adequately.

                              Thanks,

                              Jon Love

                              On Aug 27, 2006, at 10:54 PM, Tom Wayburn wrote:

                              > Steve,
                              >
                              > I think you are a person who might have some ideas about
                              > ultimately getting people to change and as a prelude to that
                              > getting them to discover certain facts of life that we both feel
                              > they should understand even though their ability to earn a living
                              > may depend upon them not understanding them. In particular, we
                              > need people to understand that economic growth is undesirable
                              > except in the least developed countries that need to grow as we
                              > shrink until we meet somewhere in between.
                              >
                              > I have been singularly unsuccessful in raising the level of
                              > understanding among the people who contribute to this forum even.
                              > Someone needs to teach me how to reach people.
                              >
                              > Tom
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Steve Bosserman wrote:
                              > Hi Tom,
                              >
                              > Thanks for your quick response. If I am following your logic, it
                              > appears
                              > that humanity has a treacherous path ahead regardless of how
                              > plentiful and
                              > benign the energy. This difficulty is due to the “immorality” of
                              > various
                              > systems we humans have put in place to “manage” behavior. Scarcity
                              > spawns
                              > fear and greed. This creates an enormous opportunity for those who are
                              > unabashed at using fear to their advantage. Indeed, they are loath to
                              > change the rules.
                              >
                              > Some suggest that cooperation engenders a sense of abundance, but
                              > as you
                              > mention there may very well not be enough to go around whether
                              > motivation is
                              > cooperative or competitive. Nonetheless, the more scarcity the more
                              > people
                              > are driven by their instincts to perpetuate the species and the
                              > more the
                              > human population grows. In addition, people whose survival is at
                              > risk leave
                              > where they are and migrate elsewhere to seek relief. More often
                              > than not,
                              > their destination is an urban area that is already over-burdened and
                              > maladaptive. In many instances their circumstances are made worse—
                              > and the
                              > world loses.
                              >
                              > This suggests that to reduce the perception that unchecked scarcity
                              > reigns
                              > supreme lessens the pressure to propagate, which slows population
                              > growth and
                              > migration—and the world benefits. Inculcating people in the ways of
                              > cooperation is a very powerful approach in creating that
                              > impression. How to
                              > do that, though, is quite a challenge.
                              >
                              > Each of us engages in the battle against the threat of scarcity on
                              > multiple
                              > fronts: personally, locally, and globally. The arena of meaningful
                              > action
                              > is quite extensive. It is clear you have considerable experience
                              > fighting
                              > the good fight for a more cooperative existence beyond exhorting
                              > others to
                              > do so. What works for you? How do you carry your thinking into
                              > purposeful
                              > action in your life at home, in the Houston area (number two in
                              > urban sprawl
                              > in the USA), and in the larger domains of national and international
                              > politics? What vulnerabilities do you see in the current system
                              > that can be
                              > readily exploited?
                              >
                              > Thanks in advance for your response. There are several ways I have
                              > in mind
                              > to apply your work in turning the dial of cooperation, but I would
                              > rather
                              > hear what you are doing so that what I might propose is aligned
                              > rather than
                              > oblique. Looking forward to it!
                              >
                              > Best regards,
                              >
                              > Steve B.
                              >
                              > _____
                              >
                              > From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com]
                              > On Behalf
                              > Of Tom Wayburn
                              > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 5:27 PM
                              > To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Fossil Fuel, Consumption, and Commerce
                              >
                              > Thanks, Steve, for looking at my work. Clearly, a model of
                              > acquisitiveness,
                              > consumption, and economic growth cannot be sustained in a finite
                              > world. Many
                              > writers have discussed the immorality of a system that is based
                              > upon greed
                              > and fear. It is not just that many will do anything for profit;
                              > but, for
                              > most others, if they do not do whatever they can, they will perish.
                              > Therefore, if capitalism had been based upon an unlimited
                              > sustainable energy
                              > source - or virtually unlimited if, for example, we could harvest
                              > all of the
                              > 185,000 terrawatts radiating the earth from the sun - we would
                              > still be in
                              > enormous difficulties of a moral nature even supposing we could
                              > escape the
                              > earth whose large distances from other habitable planets
                              > constitutes a sort
                              > of quarantine of man's corrupted nature from contact with other
                              > sentient
                              > beings who might suffer immeasurably from contact with human beings.
                              >
                              > In Chapter 2 of my book I made an outline of some of the likely
                              > effects of a
                              > plentiful energy scenario:
                              >
                              > from http://dematerialis
                              >
                              > m.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170713
                              >
                              > Drawbacks and Advantages of a Large Energy Budget
                              > It is not necessary to prove that every technology capable of
                              > supplying
                              > plentiful high-grade energy must fail. It is clear that plentiful
                              > energy
                              > would not be a blessing in a materialistic world. When I was first
                              > told of
                              > cold fusion, I hoped it would turn out to be a failure. The first
                              > thing that
                              > popped into my head was traffic on the interstates multiplied a
                              > hundred-fold
                              > all over the globe. Do we really want to turn the world into Loop 610?
                              >
                              > On the other hand, in a cooperative world, (I have claimed) energy
                              > would be
                              > used wisely as there would be no incentive to use it selfishly and
                              > stupidly.
                              > (You see; I, too, make use of incentive arguments that presume some
                              > knowledge of human nature. I claim that the knowledge I profess has
                              > a better
                              > basis in fact than theories that deny intrinsic motivation. After
                              > all, I am
                              > claiming only what everyone believes. We have never given intrinsic
                              > motivation a chance, but we can see for ourselves – even feel for
                              > ourselves
                              > – the power of intrinsic motivation when it is allowed to function.)
                              >
                              > For a change, I shall present only an outline of the drawbacks and
                              > advantages of a plentiful (high-grade) energy budget – even though
                              > I believe
                              > that, unless the population be reduced considerably, energy shall
                              > continue
                              > to be scarce. Thus, I haven’t much hope for a large population;
                              > however, a
                              > small population might encounter serious obstacles too. Perhaps a
                              > small
                              > population would have difficulty harvesting even a large supply of
                              > biomass
                              > and scarcity would persist. As far as those large readily available
                              > fossil-fuel reserves are concerned, soon they shall be gone forever.
                              >
                              > Outline of Likely Effects of a Plentiful Energy Budget under
                              > Contrasting
                              > Social Conditions
                              >
                              > I. Wrongful Use ( competition for wealth and power)
                              > A. Health risk and discomfort
                              > 1. chemical and radiative pollution
                              > 2. space pollution (junk in outer space)
                              > 3. noise
                              > 4. light pollution (we can’t see the stars, which is all we wanted
                              > of them)
                              > 5. information pollution (lies, propaganda, drivel)
                              > 6. excessive motion leading to stress
                              > 7. crowding
                              > 8. disappearance of wilderness
                              > 9. extinctions of species
                              > 10. population growth
                              > 11. ugliness
                              > 12. urbanization
                              > a. garbage
                              > b. sewage
                              > 13. crime
                              > 14. insanity
                              > 15. etc.
                              > B. Useless consumer products and deceptive marketing
                              > C. More junkpiles and less space
                              > D. Wasted effort
                              > E. Unpleasant jobs
                              > F. CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH AND POWER
                              > G. TOTALITARIANISM
                              > H. WAR
                              > II. Proper Uses (cooperation)
                              > A. Population control
                              > B. Pollution control
                              > 1. Purification of all waste streams
                              > 2. Separation and recycle of all junk
                              > C. Decentralization (deurbanization)
                              > D. Mass communication
                              > E. Equality of wealth, power, and fame
                              > F. Abundant living without excessive work, perhaps none for people
                              > who hate
                              > work. Of course, many people will work on personal projects
                              > interesting to
                              > themselves only, one of which might save the world in some easily
                              > imagined
                              > scenario.
                              > G. Etc.
                              >
                              > [Note in proof (1-26-97). Even supposing that we have abandoned
                              > materialism,
                              > an excessively lavish emergy supply will only make it harder to
                              > abide by the
                              > spirit and the letter of the social contract derived from our
                              > minimal proper
                              > religion. Overconsumption and population growth might be hard to
                              > resist.
                              > Nevertheless, in keeping with the view of humanity that, in Chapter
                              > 4 of
                              > this essay, is assumed to be a good enough approximation to the
                              > correct
                              > view, I shall continue to trust humanity to do the right thing.
                              > Undoubtedly,
                              > this point is moot as emergy will always be scarce. In case it
                              > turns out
                              > that I am wrong, I hope future generations forgive my lack of
                              > prescience, as
                              > I forgive past and present generations who can’t read the future or
                              > who
                              > can’t see the world as it actually is. Remember, many of you have
                              > acted (or
                              > continue to act) unwisely; however, I will have acted prudently. It is
                              > better to have planned for a calamity that doesn’t occur than not
                              > to have
                              > prepared
                              > for one that does!]
                              >
                              > [end of selection from Chapter 2]
                              >
                              > I hope this helps to clarify my position.
                              >
                              > Best regards,
                              > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                              >
                              > Steve Bosserman
                              > yahoo.com> wrote:
                              > Hi Tom,
                              >
                              > In reading your treatise about "dematerialism," your deep analysis
                              > shows a
                              > profound level of commitment to giving the issues surrounding our
                              > choices
                              > about what, how much, and in what way we consume a very thorough
                              > investigation. However, this prompts a question. It is my
                              > impression that
                              > you are associating the use of fossil fuel (heading toward inevitable
                              > depletion and polluting the environment more and more along the
                              > way), with
                              > consumption (unchecked materialism), and commerce (in this case, the
                              > confluence of capitalism, finance, and industry spurring unnecessary
                              > competition, wastefulness of natural and human resources, and
                              > greediness to
                              > accumulate excessive wealth at the expense of countless others). If my
                              > understanding is correct, under what conditions would we be living
                              > now if,
                              > through some miracle of development 300 years ago, our energy needs
                              > had been
                              > and continue to be met by solar power (as an example) in lieu of
                              > fossil
                              > fuel? To ask the question another way, is it your opinion that the
                              > phenomena of consumption and commerce as experienced today are the
                              > inevitable outcomes of flawed systems that doom us to destruction
                              > irrespective of the energy source used to drive technological
                              > advancement OR
                              > did the use of fossil fuel distort the functionality of plausible
                              > systems to
                              > behave in undesirable ways? This may be covered in your paper, but
                              > if so, I
                              > missed it. Thanks in advance for your consideration.
                              >
                              > Best regards,
                              >
                              > Steve B.
                              >
                              > _____
                              >
                              > From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                              > [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou
                              > ps.com] On
                              > Behalf
                              > Of Tom Wayburn
                              > Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 10:39 PM
                              > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                              > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Steve Bosserman, good to hear from you!
                              >
                              > Andrius,
                              >
                              > I have gone to a lot of trouble to show arithmetically that business,
                              > markets, buying and selling, the profit motive are inconsistent with
                              > sustainability. I understand that not everyone on this list can
                              > afford to
                              > forego earning money; however, all of us should be aware that most
                              > things we
                              > do to earn money set back the cause of sustainability in one way or
                              > another
                              > and eventually must be rejected by a society that hopes to avoid a
                              > massive
                              > die-off. I get tired of pointing out the papers and computational
                              > studies I
                              > have already finished that prove these points. I continue work on
                              > the Mark
                              > II Economy to produce an educational tool that might be used or
                              > improved
                              > upon to create a wider understanding of the types of political
                              > changes that
                              > sustainability requires.
                              >
                              > Tom
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                              > Blog: http://dematerialis
                              > m.blogspot.com/
                              > Website: http://dematerialis m.net/
                              > Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post:
                              > twayburn@wt. net
                              > If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to
                              > twayburn@yahoo.
                              > com .
                              >
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                              > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
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                            • Terry Mace
                              Sorry Tom, I forgot the link I promised... http://www.attitudinalhealing.org/ Tom Wayburn wrote: Terry, Thank you for the beautiful
                              Message 14 of 27 , Aug 29, 2006
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                                Sorry Tom, I forgot the link I promised...

                                http://www.attitudinalhealing.org/

                                Tom Wayburn <twayburn@...> wrote:
                                Terry,

                                Thank you for the beautiful letter. The unified view of the World corresponds somewhat to the Universe as a hologram, an idea that is gaining currency these days. Is this unified world the only world? Is the World wherein you or I experience Heaven the only World or is there an infinitude of other Worlds, in some of which people experience Heaven and in some of which children starve to death? Or is the World what it is regardless of who is in it and what they think?

                                Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                http://dematerialism.net/


                                P.S. You may be right about not ever being able to reach people, which means that all of us world betterers are no better than the single-issue activist who earns a living and a reputation pursuing a goal that he will never reach and who has more to lose than other people if he did. We may not be in it for the money, but we are in it for something.



                                Terry Mace <terrytimebroker@...> wrote:
                                Dear Tom, Steve and Jon... ...and all others following this link/thread,

                                I've read with interest all of the comments over the last several days and have decided to offer my assistance once again into our online community and arena.

                                Your comments have not gone unnoticed!

                                Today, I have something to say!

                                For those of you who know me and have taken the time to engage me you will know that often I am 'radical' even 'raw' with my thoughts, comments or actions.

                                As a metaphor, I liken myself humbly to the two grains of sand which agitate the oyster within, thus, birthing that most precious of peals, wisdom.

                                Whatever you views on the following comments, concepts and ideas please be assured of this...

                                ...I am a Brother...

                                I've picked up scientifically, philosophically and sociologically most of what has been said and humbly, I'd say I understand most of what has been positioned, hypothesised and spoken off, however, for me one 'core' thing remains unsaid, unspoken of...

                                ...Spirit!'

                                'What of our Spiritual Worth, Our Spiritual Economy, Our Spiritual Abundance, Our Spiritual Resources?'

                                Some posts ago, I brought up this subject and threw it like a pebble into our waters...

                                ...Did, the ripples reach anyone?

                                No one answered, responded or commented...

                                And so, I begin again...

                                Some posts ago we were also asked by our core facilitators to consider what our work in life was or could be...

                                ...In essence, we were I feel, being asked, 'what are we here to do, say, give and exchange?'

                                ...In principle, what was our, 'true' work on earth?

                                While I've yet to post my full answer, I'm of the opinion that today would be a great day to share with the three of you initially what I'm here on earth to do!

                                Anyone else listening is invited to celebrate my stand alongside me if they so choose...

                                I, Terry Mace - AKA - 'Standing-Feather-Talking-Bear'

                                Am here to share, teach, explore and show the people of the world that we operate not in, 'duality' or within a, 'dualistic' universe as apparently we seem to do, but rather, that we have a source and home in the universe which is, 'singular' and without divide.

                                In essence, and restrained linguistically by language and words either written of spoken, simply put I am saying, 'There is only one...'

                                One point of energy, light or focus so unmeasurable, so, indefinable that to even try to conceive such a thing is outside of language or most human being sentient experience...

                                ...And yet, it exists!

                                You see, all three of you are asking, 'how' do we get people to, 'listen?' How do we reach people? Ho do we get them to change', 'metamorphosis' and 'transform' their thinking so that we all, 'get-it'!

                                My answer is simple!

                                You can't!

                                My belief at present...

                                You never will!

                                The only thing achievable, the only hope we have is to work as brothers and sister to experience, singularity...

                                You see, the problem is compounded by yourselves as 'free-thinkers' because you see those around you as 'separate', divided in a vacum. Alone...

                                Thus, alien and not a part of what you say, do or think...

                                Existentially, you're saying, Yes, BUT!

                                In a way, that says, I'm prepared to have a go at, 'saving' the world, however, 'I'm not prepared to be the salvation of the world!'

                                However, what if as a possibility, that very thinking created division?

                                Not intellectually, cognitively or academically but rather at a, 'sub-atomic', and 'quantum' level?

                                A level, so profound that you, me and all others apparently sharing this planet were engaged in a form of, 'energy-diffusion' so large, so big that splitting the atom would be child's play to us.

                                My answer...

                                Teach, show and extend to our, brothers and sister the, 'experience' of a singular, undivided moment outside of time and space!

                                Possible?

                                Absolutely!

                                Once that has been simultaneously achieved, all illusions end, all pain is gone all need is eradicated and seen for what it is...

                                Fear!

                                Or, the absence of, 'Love' so divine that it might initially blind those seekers willing to raise their, 'ego's' sunglasses for just the briefest of moments.

                                Then, discovering blindness to be as much a part of the illusion as, the next shadow and the next shadow after that, we release ourselves from the prison that has and will continue to enslave the world.

                                I'd put it to the three of you and all others listening that my own work and personal hypothesis has merit in as much that all of us at some time or another have experienced this, 'paradigm shift'.

                                That we, as apparent dualistic and separate human-beings have felt at least once in our life, 'ONE'!

                                Question is, who wants to go to heaven?

                                OK!

                                Who wants to go NOW!

                                And there, lies the problem...

                                Our investment in this world is so profound that unless we have the ears to hear, we will forever, be bankrupt.

                                Not financially, not materially.

                                No!

                                Spiritually!

                                So, our real problem with Wealth, Worth and Scarcity is this...

                                ...We don't recognise it as a dream, or more authentically put, a 'bad' dream.

                                Put more dramatically, 'A Nightmare'!

                                However, what is it that's made, waking from the dream so hard, so distant so difficult?

                                My answer, Fear!

                                Fear, that all our investment in this world is little more than a child's illusion, little more than, a shadow on the wall, little more than a dream from which if we so desire we could wake from in an instant.

                                My solution...

                                ...Teach that which we most need to learn'

                                That everyone and everything is little more than the energy we constantly discuss and cogitate here within this forum in one form or another.

                                Question is, are we all prepared to make fluid this energy and release ourselves from the illusion of duality. Because my brothers, that's what you're discussing here today...

                                ...Duality'!

                                And that's my, 'singular' contribution today and for the next several hours...

                                ...comments, questions and enquires as always on a universal postcard

                                Yours in light.

                                Standing-Feather-Talking-Bear - AKA - Terry Mace

                                Tom Wayburn <twayburn@...> wrote:
                                Steve and Jon,

                                Just this minute I sent the following letter to the Pachamama Alliance:

                                Dear Friends,

                                I am an independent scholar devoting his declining years to the best research he has ever done. I have no income and no sponsorship of any kind. Therefore, my results cannot be influenced by ideology. (My own ideas are enough for me.) What I need is help in reaching other people with the powerful messages my computational studies and my investigation into morality contain. Please take a look at my website http://dematerialism.net/ and my latest paper http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html (in which I illustrate the importance of abandoning market conomics*) to determine if I can be of any use to you. I am unable to assist you financially as no one other than my wife is assisting me.

                                *I hope that you agree with me that market economies are intrinsically unsustainable and must be abandoned in favor of planned economies or, better yet, give-away economies. My dilemma is how to convince people that this is true in the face of 116 years of anti-communist propaganda even though it is proved mathematically. To begin with, I can't get them to read http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html. If my spreadsheet simulator could be made into a fascinating computer game, perhaps young people would "accidentally" convince themselves that it is true.

                                Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                http://dematerialism.net/
                                http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/

                                Tom Wayburn <twayburn@...> wrote:
                                Thanks, Jon Love, I shall be looking into the Pachamama Alliance this very hour. I wondered if anyone else were listening to our conversation. Now I know.

                                Best regards,
                                Tom

                                Jon Love <jonlove@...> wrote:
                                Tom and Steve,

                                As a reader of the posts on this list I have learned a lot and been
                                provoked to critical thinking on many occasions. In the interest of
                                brevity at the moment, I would like to call your attention to a
                                program developed by an organization called "the Pachamama Alliance,"
                                which is a one-day symposium designed to "wake people up" to the
                                "dream" of the modern world, and the web of unexamined assumptions
                                that drive our behavior in ways that produce an unjust, unfulfilling
                                and unsustainable human presence on earth. Check it out here: http://
                                www.pachamama.org/atd/

                                This piece of work does actually reach people, and moves them from
                                denial to action.

                                On another note, there is one aspect of development that actually has
                                been shown to reduce population growth rather than increase it.
                                Notice that the "native replacement rate" (the rate of increase that
                                a country would experience without immigration or emigration) is
                                negative in many industrialized countries. It seems that as infant
                                mortality falls and women's level of eduction rises there is a huge
                                drop in birth rates - the statistical correlation is convincing - It
                                seems women who have alternatives to motherhood to make life
                                meaningful, and who have confidence that their first and second
                                children are more likely to live than to die, make different choices
                                and family size falls rapidly.

                                I would say that it is the green revolution in concert with lack of
                                health care and women's education that has led to the egregious
                                expansion of populations in countries that cannot now provide for
                                them adequately.

                                Thanks,

                                Jon Love

                                On Aug 27, 2006, at 10:54 PM, Tom Wayburn wrote:

                                > Steve,
                                >
                                > I think you are a person who might have some ideas about
                                > ultimately getting people to change and as a prelude to that
                                > getting them to discover certain facts of life that we both feel
                                > they should understand even though their ability to earn a living
                                > may depend upon them not understanding them. In particular, we
                                > need people to understand that economic growth is undesirable
                                > except in the least developed countries that need to grow as we
                                > shrink until we meet somewhere in between.
                                >
                                > I have been singularly unsuccessful in raising the level of
                                > understanding among the people who contribute to this forum even.
                                > Someone needs to teach me how to reach people.
                                >
                                > Tom
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Steve Bosserman wrote:
                                > Hi Tom,
                                >
                                > Thanks for your quick response. If I am following your logic, it
                                > appears
                                > that humanity has a treacherous path ahead regardless of how
                                > plentiful and
                                > benign the energy. This difficulty is due to the “immorality” of
                                > various
                                > systems we humans have put in place to “manage” behavior. Scarcity
                                > spawns
                                > fear and greed. This creates an enormous opportunity for those who are
                                > unabashed at using fear to their advantage. Indeed, they are loath to
                                > change the rules.
                                >
                                > Some suggest that cooperation engenders a sense of abundance, but
                                > as you
                                > mention there may very well not be enough to go around whether
                                > motivation is
                                > cooperative or competitive. Nonetheless, the more scarcity the more
                                > people
                                > are driven by their instincts to perpetuate the species and the
                                > more the
                                > human population grows. In addition, people whose survival is at
                                > risk leave
                                > where they are and migrate elsewhere to seek relief. More often
                                > than not,
                                > their destination is an urban area that is already over-burdened and
                                > maladaptive. In many instances their circumstances are made worse—
                                > and the
                                > world loses.
                                >
                                > This suggests that to reduce the perception that unchecked scarcity
                                > reigns
                                > supreme lessens the pressure to propagate, which slows population
                                > growth and
                                > migration—and the world benefits. Inculcating people in the ways of
                                > cooperation is a very powerful approach in creating that
                                > impression. How to
                                > do that, though, is quite a challenge.
                                >
                                > Each of us engages in the battle against the threat of scarcity on
                                > multiple
                                > fronts: personally, locally, and globally. The arena of meaningful
                                > action
                                > is quite extensive. It is clear you have considerable experience
                                > fighting
                                > the good fight for a more cooperative existence beyond exhorting
                                > others to
                                > do so. What works for you? How do you carry your thinking into
                                > purposeful
                                > action in your life at home, in the Houston area (number two in
                                > urban sprawl
                                > in the USA), and in the larger domains of national and international
                                > politics? What vulnerabilities do you see in the current system
                                > that can be
                                > readily exploited?
                                >
                                > Thanks in advance for your response. There are several ways I have
                                > in mind
                                > to apply your work in turning the dial of cooperation, but I would
                                > rather
                                > hear what you are doing so that what I might propose is aligned
                                > rather than
                                > oblique. Looking forward to it!
                                >
                                > Best regards,
                                >
                                > Steve B.
                                >
                                > _____
                                >
                                > From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com]
                                > On Behalf
                                > Of Tom Wayburn
                                > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 5:27 PM
                                > To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Fossil Fuel, Consumption, and Commerce
                                >
                                > Thanks, Steve, for looking at my work. Clearly, a model of
                                > acquisitiveness,
                                > consumption, and economic growth cannot be sustained in a finite
                                > world. Many
                                > writers have discussed the immorality of a system that is based
                                > upon greed
                                > and fear. It is not just that many will do anything for profit;
                                > but, for
                                > most others, if they do not do whatever they can, they will perish.
                                > Therefore, if capitalism had been based upon an unlimited
                                > sustainable energy
                                > source - or virtually unlimited if, for example, we could harvest
                                > all of the
                                > 185,000 terrawatts radiating the earth from the sun - we would
                                > still be in
                                > enormous difficulties of a moral nature even supposing we could
                                > escape the
                                > earth whose large distances from other habitable planets
                                > constitutes a sort
                                > of quarantine of man's corrupted nature from contact with other
                                > sentient
                                > beings who might suffer immeasurably from contact with human beings.
                                >
                                > In Chapter 2 of my book I made an outline of some of the likely
                                > effects of a
                                > plentiful energy scenario:
                                >
                                > from http://dematerialis
                                >
                                > m.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170713
                                >
                                > Drawbacks and Advantages of a Large Energy Budget
                                > It is not necessary to prove that every technology capable of
                                > supplying
                                > plentiful high-grade energy must fail. It is clear that plentiful
                                > energy
                                > would not be a blessing in a materialistic world. When I was first
                                > told of
                                > cold fusion, I hoped it would turn out to be a failure. The first
                                > thing that
                                > popped into my head was traffic on the interstates multiplied a
                                > hundred-fold
                                > all over the globe. Do we really want to turn the world into Loop 610?
                                >
                                > On the other hand, in a cooperative world, (I have claimed) energy
                                > would be
                                > used wisely as there would be no incentive to use it selfishly and
                                > stupidly.
                                > (You see; I, too, make use of incentive arguments that presume some
                                > knowledge of human nature. I claim that the knowledge I profess has
                                > a better
                                > basis in fact than theories that deny intrinsic motivation. After
                                > all, I am
                                > claiming only what everyone believes. We have never given intrinsic
                                > motivation a chance, but we can see for ourselves – even feel for
                                > ourselves
                                > – the power of intrinsic motivation when it is allowed to function.)
                                >
                                > For a change, I shall present only an outline of the drawbacks and
                                > advantages of a plentiful (high-grade) energy budget – even though
                                > I believe
                                > that, unless the population be reduced considerably, energy shall
                                > continue
                                > to be scarce. Thus, I haven’t much hope for a large population;
                                > however, a
                                > small population might encounter serious obstacles too. Perhaps a
                                > small
                                > population would have difficulty harvesting even a large supply of
                                > biomass
                                > and scarcity would persist. As far as those large readily available
                                > fossil-fuel reserves are concerned, soon they shall be gone forever.
                                >
                                > Outline of Likely Effects of a Plentiful Energy Budget under
                                > Contrasting
                                > Social Conditions
                                >
                                > I. Wrongful Use ( competition for wealth and power)
                                > A. Health risk and discomfort
                                > 1. chemical and radiative pollution
                                > 2. space pollution (junk in outer space)
                                > 3. noise
                                > 4. light pollution (we can’t see the stars, which is all we wanted
                                > of them)
                                > 5. information pollution (lies, propaganda, drivel)
                                > 6. excessive motion leading to stress
                                > 7. crowding
                                > 8. disappearance of wilderness
                                > 9. extinctions of species
                                > 10. population growth
                                > 11. ugliness
                                > 12. urbanization
                                > a. garbage
                                > b. sewage
                                > 13. crime
                                > 14. insanity
                                > 15. etc.
                                > B. Useless consumer products and deceptive marketing
                                > C. More junkpiles and less space
                                > D. Wasted effort
                                > E. Unpleasant jobs
                                > F. CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH AND POWER
                                > G. TOTALITARIANISM
                                > H. WAR
                                > II. Proper Uses (cooperation)
                                > A. Population control
                                > B. Pollution control
                                > 1. Purification of all waste streams
                                > 2. Separation and recycle of all junk
                                > C. Decentralization (deurbanization)
                                > D. Mass communication
                                > E. Equality of wealth, power, and fame
                                > F. Abundant living without excessive work, perhaps none for people
                                > who hate
                                > work. Of course, many people will work on personal projects
                                > interesting to
                                > themselves only, one of which might save the world in some easily
                                > imagined
                                > scenario.
                                > G. Etc.
                                >
                                > [Note in proof (1-26-97). Even supposing that we have abandoned
                                > materialism,
                                > an excessively lavish emergy supply will only make it harder to
                                > abide by the
                                > spirit and the letter of the social contract derived from our
                                > minimal proper
                                > religion. Overconsumption and population growth might be hard to
                                > resist.
                                > Nevertheless, in keeping with the view of humanity that, in Chapter
                                > 4 of
                                > this essay, is assumed to be a good enough approximation to the
                                > correct
                                > view, I shall continue to trust humanity to do the right thing.
                                > Undoubtedly,
                                > this point is moot as emergy will always be scarce. In case it
                                > turns out
                                > that I am wrong, I hope future generations forgive my lack of
                                > prescience, as
                                > I forgive past and present generations who can’t read the future or
                                > who
                                > can’t see the world as it actually is. Remember, many of you have
                                > acted (or
                                > continue to act) unwisely; however, I will have acted prudently. It is
                                > better to have planned for a calamity that doesn’t occur than not
                                > to have
                                > prepared
                                > for one that does!]
                                >
                                > [end of selection from Chapter 2]
                                >
                                > I hope this helps to clarify my position.
                                >
                                > Best regards,
                                > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                >
                                > Steve Bosserman
                                > yahoo.com> wrote:
                                > Hi Tom,
                                >
                                > In reading your treatise about "dematerialism," your deep analysis
                                > shows a
                                > profound level of commitment to giving the issues surrounding our
                                > choices
                                > about what, how much, and in what way we consume a very thorough
                                > investigation. However, this prompts a question. It is my
                                > impression that
                                > you are associating the use of fossil fuel (heading toward inevitable
                                > depletion and polluting the environment more and more along the
                                > way), with
                                > consumption (unchecked materialism), and commerce (in this case, the
                                > confluence of capitalism, finance, and industry spurring unnecessary
                                > competition, wastefulness of natural and human resources, and
                                > greediness to
                                > accumulate excessive wealth at the expense of countless others). If my
                                > understanding is correct, under what conditions would we be living
                                > now if,
                                > through some miracle of development 300 years ago, our energy needs
                                > had been
                                > and continue to be met by solar power (as an example) in lieu of
                                > fossil
                                > fuel? To ask the question another way, is it your opinion that the
                                > phenomena of consumption and commerce as experienced today are the
                                > inevitable outcomes of flawed systems that doom us to destruction
                                > irrespective of the energy source used to drive technological
                                > advancement OR
                                > did the use of fossil fuel distort the functionality of plausible
                                > systems to
                                > behave in undesirable ways? This may be covered in your paper, but
                                > if so, I
                                > missed it. Thanks in advance for your consideration.
                                >
                                > Best regards,
                                >
                                > Steve B.
                                >
                                > _____
                                >
                                > From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                                > [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou
                                > ps.com] On
                                > Behalf
                                > Of Tom Wayburn
                                > Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 10:39 PM
                                > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                                > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Steve Bosserman, good to hear from you!
                                >
                                > Andrius,
                                >
                                > I have gone to a lot of trouble to show arithmetically that business,
                                > markets, buying and selling, the profit motive are inconsistent with
                                > sustainability. I understand that not everyone on this list can
                                > afford to
                                > forego earning money; however, all of us should be aware that most
                                > things we
                                > do to earn money set back the cause of sustainability in one way or
                                > another
                                > and eventually must be rejected by a society that hopes to avoid a
                                > massive
                                > die-off. I get tired of pointing out the papers and computational
                                > studies I
                                > have already finished that prove these points. I continue work on
                                > the Mark
                                > II Economy to produce an educational tool that might be used or
                                > improved
                                > upon to create a wider understanding of the types of political
                                > changes that
                                > sustainability requires.
                                >
                                > Tom
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                > Blog: http://dematerialis
                                > m.blogspot.com/
                                > Website: http://dematerialis m.net/
                                > Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post:
                                > twayburn@wt. net
                                > If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to
                                > twayburn@yahoo.
                                > com .
                                >
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                              • Tom Wayburn
                                Thanks, Terry. I ll look into it. I could use a new attitude:-) Tom Terry Mace wrote: Sorry Tom, I forgot the link I
                                Message 15 of 27 , Aug 29, 2006
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                                  Thanks, Terry. I'll look into it. I could use a new attitude:-)

                                  Tom

                                  Terry Mace <terrytimebroker@...> wrote:
                                  Sorry Tom, I forgot the link I promised...

                                  http://www.attitudinalhealing.org/

                                  Tom Wayburn <twayburn@...> wrote:
                                  Terry,

                                  Thank you for the beautiful letter. The unified view of the World corresponds somewhat to the Universe as a hologram, an idea that is gaining currency these days. Is this unified world the only world? Is the World wherein you or I experience Heaven the only World or is there an infinitude of other Worlds, in some of which people experience Heaven and in some of which children starve to death? Or is the World what it is regardless of who is in it and what they think?

                                  Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                  http://dematerialism.net/

                                  P.S. You may be right about not ever being able to reach people, which means that all of us world betterers are no better than the single-issue activist who earns a living and a reputation pursuing a goal that he will never reach and who has more to lose than other people if he did. We may not be in it for the money, but we are in it for something.

                                  Terry Mace <terrytimebroker@...> wrote:
                                  Dear Tom, Steve and Jon... ...and all others following this link/thread,

                                  I've read with interest all of the comments over the last several days and have decided to offer my assistance once again into our online community and arena.

                                  Your comments have not gone unnoticed!

                                  Today, I have something to say!

                                  For those of you who know me and have taken the time to engage me you will know that often I am 'radical' even 'raw' with my thoughts, comments or actions.

                                  As a metaphor, I liken myself humbly to the two grains of sand which agitate the oyster within, thus, birthing that most precious of peals, wisdom.

                                  Whatever you views on the following comments, concepts and ideas please be assured of this...

                                  ...I am a Brother...

                                  I've picked up scientifically, philosophically and sociologically most of what has been said and humbly, I'd say I understand most of what has been positioned, hypothesised and spoken off, however, for me one 'core' thing remains unsaid, unspoken of...

                                  ...Spirit!'

                                  'What of our Spiritual Worth, Our Spiritual Economy, Our Spiritual Abundance, Our Spiritual Resources?'

                                  Some posts ago, I brought up this subject and threw it like a pebble into our waters...

                                  ...Did, the ripples reach anyone?

                                  No one answered, responded or commented...

                                  And so, I begin again...

                                  Some posts ago we were also asked by our core facilitators to consider what our work in life was or could be...

                                  ...In essence, we were I feel, being asked, 'what are we here to do, say, give and exchange?'

                                  ...In principle, what was our, 'true' work on earth?

                                  While I've yet to post my full answer, I'm of the opinion that today would be a great day to share with the three of you initially what I'm here on earth to do!

                                  Anyone else listening is invited to celebrate my stand alongside me if they so choose...

                                  I, Terry Mace - AKA - 'Standing-Feather-Talking-Bear'

                                  Am here to share, teach, explore and show the people of the world that we operate not in, 'duality' or within a, 'dualistic' universe as apparently we seem to do, but rather, that we have a source and home in the universe which is, 'singular' and without divide.

                                  In essence, and restrained linguistically by language and words either written of spoken, simply put I am saying, 'There is only one...'

                                  One point of energy, light or focus so unmeasurable, so, indefinable that to even try to conceive such a thing is outside of language or most human being sentient experience...

                                  ...And yet, it exists!

                                  You see, all three of you are asking, 'how' do we get people to, 'listen?' How do we reach people? Ho do we get them to change', 'metamorphosis' and 'transform' their thinking so that we all, 'get-it'!

                                  My answer is simple!

                                  You can't!

                                  My belief at present...

                                  You never will!

                                  The only thing achievable, the only hope we have is to work as brothers and sister to experience, singularity...

                                  You see, the problem is compounded by yourselves as 'free-thinkers' because you see those around you as 'separate', divided in a vacum. Alone...

                                  Thus, alien and not a part of what you say, do or think...

                                  Existentially, you're saying, Yes, BUT!

                                  In a way, that says, I'm prepared to have a go at, 'saving' the world, however, 'I'm not prepared to be the salvation of the world!'

                                  However, what if as a possibility, that very thinking created division?

                                  Not intellectually, cognitively or academically but rather at a, 'sub-atomic', and 'quantum' level?

                                  A level, so profound that you, me and all others apparently sharing this planet were engaged in a form of, 'energy-diffusion' so large, so big that splitting the atom would be child's play to us.

                                  My answer...

                                  Teach, show and extend to our, brothers and sister the, 'experience' of a singular, undivided moment outside of time and space!

                                  Possible?

                                  Absolutely!

                                  Once that has been simultaneously achieved, all illusions end, all pain is gone all need is eradicated and seen for what it is...

                                  Fear!

                                  Or, the absence of, 'Love' so divine that it might initially blind those seekers willing to raise their, 'ego's' sunglasses for just the briefest of moments.

                                  Then, discovering blindness to be as much a part of the illusion as, the next shadow and the next shadow after that, we release ourselves from the prison that has and will continue to enslave the world.

                                  I'd put it to the three of you and all others listening that my own work and personal hypothesis has merit in as much that all of us at some time or another have experienced this, 'paradigm shift'.

                                  That we, as apparent dualistic and separate human-beings have felt at least once in our life, 'ONE'!

                                  Question is, who wants to go to heaven?

                                  OK!

                                  Who wants to go NOW!

                                  And there, lies the problem...

                                  Our investment in this world is so profound that unless we have the ears to hear, we will forever, be bankrupt.

                                  Not financially, not materially.

                                  No!

                                  Spiritually!

                                  So, our real problem with Wealth, Worth and Scarcity is this...

                                  ...We don't recognise it as a dream, or more authentically put, a 'bad' dream.

                                  Put more dramatically, 'A Nightmare'!

                                  However, what is it that's made, waking from the dream so hard, so distant so difficult?

                                  My answer, Fear!

                                  Fear, that all our investment in this world is little more than a child's illusion, little more than, a shadow on the wall, little more than a dream from which if we so desire we could wake from in an instant.

                                  My solution...

                                  ...Teach that which we most need to learn'

                                  That everyone and everything is little more than the energy we constantly discuss and cogitate here within this forum in one form or another.

                                  Question is, are we all prepared to make fluid this energy and release ourselves from the illusion of duality. Because my brothers, that's what you're discussing here today...

                                  ...Duality'!

                                  And that's my, 'singular' contribution today and for the next several hours...

                                  ...comments, questions and enquires as always on a universal postcard

                                  Yours in light.

                                  Standing-Feather-Talking-Bear - AKA - Terry Mace

                                  Tom Wayburn <twayburn@...> wrote:
                                  Steve and Jon,

                                  Just this minute I sent the following letter to the Pachamama Alliance:

                                  Dear Friends,

                                  I am an independent scholar devoting his declining years to the best research he has ever done. I have no income and no sponsorship of any kind. Therefore, my results cannot be influenced by ideology. (My own ideas are enough for me.) What I need is help in reaching other people with the powerful messages my computational studies and my investigation into morality contain. Please take a look at my website http://dematerialism.net/ and my latest paper http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html (in which I illustrate the importance of abandoning market conomics*) to determine if I can be of any use to you. I am unable to assist you financially as no one other than my wife is assisting me.

                                  *I hope that you agree with me that market economies are intrinsically unsustainable and must be abandoned in favor of planned economies or, better yet, give-away economies. My dilemma is how to convince people that this is true in the face of 116 years of anti-communist propaganda even though it is proved mathematically. To begin with, I can't get them to read http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html. If my spreadsheet simulator could be made into a fascinating computer game, perhaps young people would "accidentally" convince themselves that it is true.

                                  Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                  http://dematerialism.net/
                                  http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/

                                  Tom Wayburn <twayburn@...> wrote:
                                  Thanks, Jon Love, I shall be looking into the Pachamama Alliance this very hour. I wondered if anyone else were listening to our conversation. Now I know.

                                  Best regards,
                                  Tom

                                  Jon Love <jonlove@...> wrote:
                                  Tom and Steve,

                                  As a reader of the posts on this list I have learned a lot and been
                                  provoked to critical thinking on many occasions. In the interest of
                                  brevity at the moment, I would like to call your attention to a
                                  program developed by an organization called "the Pachamama Alliance,"
                                  which is a one-day symposium designed to "wake people up" to the
                                  "dream" of the modern world, and the web of unexamined assumptions
                                  that drive our behavior in ways that produce an unjust, unfulfilling
                                  and unsustainable human presence on earth. Check it out here: http://
                                  www.pachamama.org/atd/

                                  This piece of work does actually reach people, and moves them from
                                  denial to action.

                                  On another note, there is one aspect of development that actually has
                                  been shown to reduce population growth rather than increase it.
                                  Notice that the "native replacement rate" (the rate of increase that
                                  a country would experience without immigration or emigration) is
                                  negative in many industrialized countries. It seems that as infant
                                  mortality falls and women's level of eduction rises there is a huge
                                  drop in birth rates - the statistical correlation is convincing - It
                                  seems women who have alternatives to motherhood to make life
                                  meaningful, and who have confidence that their first and second
                                  children are more likely to live than to die, make different choices
                                  and family size falls rapidly.

                                  I would say that it is the green revolution in concert with lack of
                                  health care and women's education that has led to the egregious
                                  expansion of populations in countries that cannot now provide for
                                  them adequately.

                                  Thanks,

                                  Jon Love

                                  On Aug 27, 2006, at 10:54 PM, Tom Wayburn wrote:

                                  > Steve,
                                  >
                                  > I think you are a person who might have some ideas about
                                  > ultimately getting people to change and as a prelude to that
                                  > getting them to discover certain facts of life that we both feel
                                  > they should understand even though their ability to earn a living
                                  > may depend upon them not understanding them. In particular, we
                                  > need people to understand that economic growth is undesirable
                                  > except in the least developed countries that need to grow as we
                                  > shrink until we meet somewhere in between.
                                  >
                                  > I have been singularly unsuccessful in raising the level of
                                  > understanding among the people who contribute to this forum even.
                                  > Someone needs to teach me how to reach people.
                                  >
                                  > Tom
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Steve Bosserman wrote:
                                  > Hi Tom,
                                  >
                                  > Thanks for your quick response. If I am following your logic, it
                                  > appears
                                  > that humanity has a treacherous path ahead regardless of how
                                  > plentiful and
                                  > benign the energy. This difficulty is due to the “immorality” of
                                  > various
                                  > systems we humans have put in place to “manage” behavior. Scarcity
                                  > spawns
                                  > fear and greed. This creates an enormous opportunity for those who are
                                  > unabashed at using fear to their advantage. Indeed, they are loath to
                                  > change the rules.
                                  >
                                  > Some suggest that cooperation engenders a sense of abundance, but
                                  > as you
                                  > mention there may very well not be enough to go around whether
                                  > motivation is
                                  > cooperative or competitive. Nonetheless, the more scarcity the more
                                  > people
                                  > are driven by their instincts to perpetuate the species and the
                                  > more the
                                  > human population grows. In addition, people whose survival is at
                                  > risk leave
                                  > where they are and migrate elsewhere to seek relief. More often
                                  > than not,
                                  > their destination is an urban area that is already over-burdened and
                                  > maladaptive. In many instances their circumstances are made worse—
                                  > and the
                                  > world loses.
                                  >
                                  > This suggests that to reduce the perception that unchecked scarcity
                                  > reigns
                                  > supreme lessens the pressure to propagate, which slows population
                                  > growth and
                                  > migration—and the world benefits. Inculcating people in the ways of
                                  > cooperation is a very powerful approach in creating that
                                  > impression. How to
                                  > do that, though, is quite a challenge.
                                  >
                                  > Each of us engages in the battle against the threat of scarcity on
                                  > multiple
                                  > fronts: personally, locally, and globally. The arena of meaningful
                                  > action
                                  > is quite extensive. It is clear you have considerable experience
                                  > fighting
                                  > the good fight for a more cooperative existence beyond exhorting
                                  > others to
                                  > do so. What works for you? How do you carry your thinking into
                                  > purposeful
                                  > action in your life at home, in the Houston area (number two in
                                  > urban sprawl
                                  > in the USA), and in the larger domains of national and international
                                  > politics? What vulnerabilities do you see in the current system
                                  > that can be
                                  > readily exploited?
                                  >
                                  > Thanks in advance for your response. There are several ways I have
                                  > in mind
                                  > to apply your work in turning the dial of cooperation, but I would
                                  > rather
                                  > hear what you are doing so that what I might propose is aligned
                                  > rather than
                                  > oblique. Looking forward to it!
                                  >
                                  > Best regards,
                                  >
                                  > Steve B.
                                  >
                                  > _____
                                  >
                                  > From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com]
                                  > On Behalf
                                  > Of Tom Wayburn
                                  > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 5:27 PM
                                  > To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Fossil Fuel, Consumption, and Commerce
                                  >
                                  > Thanks, Steve, for looking at my work. Clearly, a model of
                                  > acquisitiveness,
                                  > consumption, and economic growth cannot be sustained in a finite
                                  > world. Many
                                  > writers have discussed the immorality of a system that is based
                                  > upon greed
                                  > and fear. It is not just that many will do anything for profit;
                                  > but, for
                                  > most others, if they do not do whatever they can, they will perish.
                                  > Therefore, if capitalism had been based upon an unlimited
                                  > sustainable energy
                                  > source - or virtually unlimited if, for example, we could harvest
                                  > all of the
                                  > 185,000 terrawatts radiating the earth from the sun - we would
                                  > still be in
                                  > enormous difficulties of a moral nature even supposing we could
                                  > escape the
                                  > earth whose large distances from other habitable planets
                                  > constitutes a sort
                                  > of quarantine of man's corrupted nature from contact with other
                                  > sentient
                                  > beings who might suffer immeasurably from contact with human beings.
                                  >
                                  > In Chapter 2 of my book I made an outline of some of the likely
                                  > effects of a
                                  > plentiful energy scenario:
                                  >
                                  > from http://dematerialis
                                  >
                                  > m.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170713
                                  >
                                  > Drawbacks and Advantages of a Large Energy Budget
                                  > It is not necessary to prove that every technology capable of
                                  > supplying
                                  > plentiful high-grade energy must fail. It is clear that plentiful
                                  > energy
                                  > would not be a blessing in a materialistic world. When I was first
                                  > told of
                                  > cold fusion, I hoped it would turn out to be a failure. The first
                                  > thing that
                                  > popped into my head was traffic on the interstates multiplied a
                                  > hundred-fold
                                  > all over the globe. Do we really want to turn the world into Loop 610?
                                  >
                                  > On the other hand, in a cooperative world, (I have claimed) energy
                                  > would be
                                  > used wisely as there would be no incentive to use it selfishly and
                                  > stupidly.
                                  > (You see; I, too, make use of incentive arguments that presume some
                                  > knowledge of human nature. I claim that the knowledge I profess has
                                  > a better
                                  > basis in fact than theories that deny intrinsic motivation. After
                                  > all, I am
                                  > claiming only what everyone believes. We have never given intrinsic
                                  > motivation a chance, but we can see for ourselves – even feel for
                                  > ourselves
                                  > – the power of intrinsic motivation when it is allowed to function.)
                                  >
                                  > For a change, I shall present only an outline of the drawbacks and
                                  > advantages of a plentiful (high-grade) energy budget – even though
                                  > I believe
                                  > that, unless the population be reduced considerably, energy shall
                                  > continue
                                  > to be scarce. Thus, I haven’t much hope for a large population;
                                  > however, a
                                  > small population might encounter serious obstacles too. Perhaps a
                                  > small
                                  > population would have difficulty harvesting even a large supply of
                                  > biomass
                                  > and scarcity would persist. As far as those large readily available
                                  > fossil-fuel reserves are concerned, soon they shall be gone forever.
                                  >
                                  > Outline of Likely Effects of a Plentiful Energy Budget under
                                  > Contrasting
                                  > Social Conditions
                                  >
                                  > I. Wrongful Use ( competition for wealth and power)
                                  > A. Health risk and discomfort
                                  > 1. chemical and radiative pollution
                                  > 2. space pollution (junk in outer space)
                                  > 3. noise
                                  > 4. light pollution (we can’t see the stars, which is all we wanted
                                  > of them)
                                  > 5. information pollution (lies, propaganda, drivel)
                                  > 6. excessive motion leading to stress
                                  > 7. crowding
                                  > 8. disappearance of wilderness
                                  > 9. extinctions of species
                                  > 10. population growth
                                  > 11. ugliness
                                  > 12. urbanization
                                  > a. garbage
                                  > b. sewage
                                  > 13. crime
                                  > 14. insanity
                                  > 15. etc.
                                  > B. Useless consumer products and deceptive marketing
                                  > C. More junkpiles and less space
                                  > D. Wasted effort
                                  > E. Unpleasant jobs
                                  > F. CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH AND POWER
                                  > G. TOTALITARIANISM
                                  > H. WAR
                                  > II. Proper Uses (cooperation)
                                  > A. Population control
                                  > B. Pollution control
                                  > 1. Purification of all waste streams
                                  > 2. Separation and recycle of all junk
                                  > C. Decentralization (deurbanization)
                                  > D. Mass communication
                                  > E. Equality of wealth, power, and fame
                                  > F. Abundant living without excessive work, perhaps none for people
                                  > who hate
                                  > work. Of course, many people will work on personal projects
                                  > interesting to
                                  > themselves only, one of which might save the world in some easily
                                  > imagined
                                  > scenario.
                                  > G. Etc.
                                  >
                                  > [Note in proof (1-26-97). Even supposing that we have abandoned
                                  > materialism,
                                  > an excessively lavish emergy supply will only make it harder to
                                  > abide by the
                                  > spirit and the letter of the social contract derived from our
                                  > minimal proper
                                  > religion. Overconsumption and population growth might be hard to
                                  > resist.
                                  > Nevertheless, in keeping with the view of humanity that, in Chapter
                                  > 4 of
                                  > this essay, is assumed to be a good enough approximation to the
                                  > correct
                                  > view, I shall continue to trust humanity to do the right thing.
                                  > Undoubtedly,
                                  > this point is moot as emergy will always be scarce. In case it
                                  > turns out
                                  > that I am wrong, I hope future generations forgive my lack of
                                  > prescience, as
                                  > I forgive past and present generations who can’t read the future or
                                  > who
                                  > can’t see the world as it actually is. Remember, many of you have
                                  > acted (or
                                  > continue to act) unwisely; however, I will have acted prudently. It is
                                  > better to have planned for a calamity that doesn’t occur than not
                                  > to have
                                  > prepared
                                  > for one that does!]
                                  >
                                  > [end of selection from Chapter 2]
                                  >
                                  > I hope this helps to clarify my position.
                                  >
                                  > Best regards,
                                  > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                  >
                                  > Steve Bosserman
                                  > yahoo.com> wrote:
                                  > Hi Tom,
                                  >
                                  > In reading your treatise about "dematerialism," your deep analysis
                                  > shows a
                                  > profound level of commitment to giving the issues surrounding our
                                  > choices
                                  > about what, how much, and in what way we consume a very thorough
                                  > investigation. However, this prompts a question. It is my
                                  > impression that
                                  > you are associating the use of fossil fuel (heading toward inevitable
                                  > depletion and polluting the environment more and more along the
                                  > way), with
                                  > consumption (unchecked materialism), and commerce (in this case, the
                                  > confluence of capitalism, finance, and industry spurring unnecessary
                                  > competition, wastefulness of natural and human resources, and
                                  > greediness to
                                  > accumulate excessive wealth at the expense of countless others). If my
                                  > understanding is correct, under what conditions would we be living
                                  > now if,
                                  > through some miracle of development 300 years ago, our energy needs
                                  > had been
                                  > and continue to be met by solar power (as an example) in lieu of
                                  > fossil
                                  > fuel? To ask the question another way, is it your opinion that the
                                  > phenomena of consumption and commerce as experienced today are the
                                  > inevitable outcomes of flawed systems that doom us to destruction
                                  > irrespective of the energy source used to drive technological
                                  > advancement OR
                                  > did the use of fossil fuel distort the functionality of plausible
                                  > systems to
                                  > behave in undesirable ways? This may be covered in your paper, but
                                  > if so, I
                                  > missed it. Thanks in advance for your consideration.
                                  >
                                  > Best regards,
                                  >
                                  > Steve B.
                                  >
                                  > _____
                                  >
                                  > From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                                  > [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou
                                  > ps.com] On
                                  > Behalf
                                  > Of Tom Wayburn
                                  > Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 10:39 PM
                                  > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                                  > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Steve Bosserman, good to hear from you!
                                  >
                                  > Andrius,
                                  >
                                  > I have gone to a lot of trouble to show arithmetically that business,
                                  > markets, buying and selling, the profit motive are inconsistent with
                                  > sustainability. I understand that not everyone on this list can
                                  > afford to
                                  > forego earning money; however, all of us should be aware that most
                                  > things we
                                  > do to earn money set back the cause of sustainability in one way or
                                  > another
                                  > and eventually must be rejected by a society that hopes to avoid a
                                  > massive
                                  > die-off. I get tired of pointing out the papers and computational
                                  > studies I
                                  > have already finished that prove these points. I continue work on
                                  > the Mark
                                  > II Economy to produce an educational tool that might be used or
                                  > improved
                                  > upon to create a wider understanding of the types of political
                                  > changes that
                                  > sustainability requires.
                                  >
                                  > Tom
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                  > Blog: http://dematerialis
                                  > m.blogspot.com/
                                  > Website: http://dematerialis m.net/
                                  > Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post:
                                  > twayburn@wt. net
                                  > If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to
                                  > twayburn@yahoo.
                                  > com .
                                  >
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                                  > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                  > Blog: http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/
                                  > Website: http://dematerialism.net/
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                                • Steve Bosserman
                                  Hi Tom, A great suggestion from Jon was given a great follow-up by you. This brings up a possibility for you to consider as you move ahead in your
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Aug 30, 2006
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                                    Hi Tom,



                                    A great suggestion from Jon was given a great follow-up by you. This brings
                                    up a possibility for you to consider as you move ahead in your
                                    communications with the Pachamama Alliance (and other groups of similar vein
                                    you may tap). Would you be willing to post the results of your exchanges on
                                    this site? While several in Cyfranogi may have knowledge about and history
                                    with the Alliance, I am not one of them. However, I would like to learn
                                    about this organization through your experiences. Beyond the learning
                                    people like me receive there is the likelihood that those who are more
                                    knowledgeable about the Alliance can help you establish a viable connection
                                    should you need it. In addition, the door is opened for the Alliance to
                                    discover how it can present itself in a more accessible and responsive
                                    manner to a wider public should they need it.



                                    The point is the steps you have embarked upon below are imbued with a deeper
                                    significance than first imagined for you, for us at Cyfranogi, for groups
                                    like the Pachamama Alliance, and for those who travel this way in the
                                    future. This process of shared learning, meaning-making, network-building,
                                    community-supporting is one expression of “community currency” and open
                                    economy which Cyfranogi is all about.



                                    Thanks in advance for your consideration. I’m looking forward to hearing
                                    about your experiences and noting where I can be of help.



                                    Best regards,


                                    Steve B.



                                    _____

                                    From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                    Of Tom Wayburn
                                    Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 4:17 AM
                                    To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Fighting Scarcity with Cooperation



                                    Steve and Jon,

                                    Just this minute I sent the following letter to the Pachamama Alliance:

                                    Dear Friends,

                                    I am an independent scholar devoting his declining years to the best
                                    research he has ever done. I have no income and no sponsorship of any kind.
                                    Therefore, my results cannot be influenced by ideology. (My own ideas are
                                    enough for me.) What I need is help in reaching other people with the
                                    powerful messages my computational studies and my investigation into
                                    morality contain. Please take a look at my website http://dematerialis
                                    <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/ and my latest paper http://dematerialis
                                    <http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html> m.net/Mark-II-Economy.html
                                    (in which I illustrate the importance of abandoning market conomics*) to
                                    determine if I can be of any use to you. I am unable to assist you
                                    financially as no one other than my wife is assisting me.

                                    *I hope that you agree with me that market economies are intrinsically
                                    unsustainable and must be abandoned in favor of planned economies or, better
                                    yet, give-away economies. My dilemma is how to convince people that this is
                                    true in the face of 116 years of anti-communist propaganda even though it is
                                    proved mathematically. To begin with, I can't get them to read
                                    http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html.>
                                    m.net/Mark-II-Economy.html. If my spreadsheet simulator could be made into a
                                    fascinating computer game, perhaps young people would "accidentally"
                                    convince themselves that it is true.

                                    Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                    http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/
                                    http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/> m.blogspot.com/


                                    Tom Wayburn <twayburn@yahoo. <mailto:twayburn%40yahoo.com> com> wrote:
                                    Thanks, Jon Love, I shall be looking into the Pachamama Alliance this very
                                    hour. I wondered if anyone else were listening to our conversation. Now I
                                    know.

                                    Best regards,
                                    Tom

                                    Jon Love <jonlove@mac. <mailto:jonlove%40mac.com> com> wrote:
                                    Tom and Steve,

                                    As a reader of the posts on this list I have learned a lot and been
                                    provoked to critical thinking on many occasions. In the interest of
                                    brevity at the moment, I would like to call your attention to a
                                    program developed by an organization called "the Pachamama Alliance,"
                                    which is a one-day symposium designed to "wake people up" to the
                                    "dream" of the modern world, and the web of unexamined assumptions
                                    that drive our behavior in ways that produce an unjust, unfulfilling
                                    and unsustainable human presence on earth. Check it out here: http://
                                    www.pachamama.org/atd/

                                    This piece of work does actually reach people, and moves them from
                                    denial to action.

                                    On another note, there is one aspect of development that actually has
                                    been shown to reduce population growth rather than increase it.
                                    Notice that the "native replacement rate" (the rate of increase that
                                    a country would experience without immigration or emigration) is
                                    negative in many industrialized countries. It seems that as infant
                                    mortality falls and women's level of eduction rises there is a huge
                                    drop in birth rates - the statistical correlation is convincing - It
                                    seems women who have alternatives to motherhood to make life
                                    meaningful, and who have confidence that their first and second
                                    children are more likely to live than to die, make different choices
                                    and family size falls rapidly.

                                    I would say that it is the green revolution in concert with lack of
                                    health care and women's education that has led to the egregious
                                    expansion of populations in countries that cannot now provide for
                                    them adequately.

                                    Thanks,

                                    Jon Love

                                    On Aug 27, 2006, at 10:54 PM, Tom Wayburn wrote:

                                    > Steve,
                                    >
                                    > I think you are a person who might have some ideas about
                                    > ultimately getting people to change and as a prelude to that
                                    > getting them to discover certain facts of life that we both feel
                                    > they should understand even though their ability to earn a living
                                    > may depend upon them not understanding them. In particular, we
                                    > need people to understand that economic growth is undesirable
                                    > except in the least developed countries that need to grow as we
                                    > shrink until we meet somewhere in between.
                                    >
                                    > I have been singularly unsuccessful in raising the level of
                                    > understanding among the people who contribute to this forum even.
                                    > Someone needs to teach me how to reach people.
                                    >
                                    > Tom
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Steve Bosserman wrote:
                                    > Hi Tom,
                                    >
                                    > Thanks for your quick response. If I am following your logic, it
                                    > appears
                                    > that humanity has a treacherous path ahead regardless of how
                                    > plentiful and
                                    > benign the energy. This difficulty is due to the “immorality” of
                                    > various
                                    > systems we humans have put in place to “manage” behavior. Scarcity
                                    > spawns
                                    > fear and greed. This creates an enormous opportunity for those who are
                                    > unabashed at using fear to their advantage. Indeed, they are loath to
                                    > change the rules.
                                    >
                                    > Some suggest that cooperation engenders a sense of abundance, but
                                    > as you
                                    > mention there may very well not be enough to go around whether
                                    > motivation is
                                    > cooperative or competitive. Nonetheless, the more scarcity the more
                                    > people
                                    > are driven by their instincts to perpetuate the species and the
                                    > more the
                                    > human population grows. In addition, people whose survival is at
                                    > risk leave
                                    > where they are and migrate elsewhere to seek relief. More often
                                    > than not,
                                    > their destination is an urban area that is already over-burdened and
                                    > maladaptive. In many instances their circumstances are made worse—
                                    > and the
                                    > world loses.
                                    >
                                    > This suggests that to reduce the perception that unchecked scarcity
                                    > reigns
                                    > supreme lessens the pressure to propagate, which slows population
                                    > growth and
                                    > migration—and the world benefits. Inculcating people in the ways of
                                    > cooperation is a very powerful approach in creating that
                                    > impression. How to
                                    > do that, though, is quite a challenge.
                                    >
                                    > Each of us engages in the battle against the threat of scarcity on
                                    > multiple
                                    > fronts: personally, locally, and globally. The arena of meaningful
                                    > action
                                    > is quite extensive. It is clear you have considerable experience
                                    > fighting
                                    > the good fight for a more cooperative existence beyond exhorting
                                    > others to
                                    > do so. What works for you? How do you carry your thinking into
                                    > purposeful
                                    > action in your life at home, in the Houston area (number two in
                                    > urban sprawl
                                    > in the USA), and in the larger domains of national and international
                                    > politics? What vulnerabilities do you see in the current system
                                    > that can be
                                    > readily exploited?
                                    >
                                    > Thanks in advance for your response. There are several ways I have
                                    > in mind
                                    > to apply your work in turning the dial of cooperation, but I would
                                    > rather
                                    > hear what you are doing so that what I might propose is aligned
                                    > rather than
                                    > oblique. Looking forward to it!
                                    >
                                    > Best regards,
                                    >
                                    > Steve B.
                                    >
                                    > _____
                                    >
                                    > From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                    [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com]
                                    > On Behalf
                                    > Of Tom Wayburn
                                    > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 5:27 PM
                                    > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Fossil Fuel, Consumption, and Commerce
                                    >
                                    > Thanks, Steve, for looking at my work. Clearly, a model of
                                    > acquisitiveness,
                                    > consumption, and economic growth cannot be sustained in a finite
                                    > world. Many
                                    > writers have discussed the immorality of a system that is based
                                    > upon greed
                                    > and fear. It is not just that many will do anything for profit;
                                    > but, for
                                    > most others, if they do not do whatever they can, they will perish.
                                    > Therefore, if capitalism had been based upon an unlimited
                                    > sustainable energy
                                    > source - or virtually unlimited if, for example, we could harvest
                                    > all of the
                                    > 185,000 terrawatts radiating the earth from the sun - we would
                                    > still be in
                                    > enormous difficulties of a moral nature even supposing we could
                                    > escape the
                                    > earth whose large distances from other habitable planets
                                    > constitutes a sort
                                    > of quarantine of man's corrupted nature from contact with other
                                    > sentient
                                    > beings who might suffer immeasurably from contact with human beings.
                                    >
                                    > In Chapter 2 of my book I made an outline of some of the likely
                                    > effects of a
                                    > plentiful energy scenario:
                                    >
                                    > from http://dematerialis
                                    >
                                    > m.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170713
                                    >
                                    > Drawbacks and Advantages of a Large Energy Budget
                                    > It is not necessary to prove that every technology capable of
                                    > supplying
                                    > plentiful high-grade energy must fail. It is clear that plentiful
                                    > energy
                                    > would not be a blessing in a materialistic world. When I was first
                                    > told of
                                    > cold fusion, I hoped it would turn out to be a failure. The first
                                    > thing that
                                    > popped into my head was traffic on the interstates multiplied a
                                    > hundred-fold
                                    > all over the globe. Do we really want to turn the world into Loop 610?
                                    >
                                    > On the other hand, in a cooperative world, (I have claimed) energy
                                    > would be
                                    > used wisely as there would be no incentive to use it selfishly and
                                    > stupidly.
                                    > (You see; I, too, make use of incentive arguments that presume some
                                    > knowledge of human nature. I claim that the knowledge I profess has
                                    > a better
                                    > basis in fact than theories that deny intrinsic motivation. After
                                    > all, I am
                                    > claiming only what everyone believes. We have never given intrinsic
                                    > motivation a chance, but we can see for ourselves – even feel for
                                    > ourselves
                                    > – the power of intrinsic motivation when it is allowed to function.)
                                    >
                                    > For a change, I shall present only an outline of the drawbacks and
                                    > advantages of a plentiful (high-grade) energy budget – even though
                                    > I believe
                                    > that, unless the population be reduced considerably, energy shall
                                    > continue
                                    > to be scarce. Thus, I haven’t much hope for a large population;
                                    > however, a
                                    > small population might encounter serious obstacles too. Perhaps a
                                    > small
                                    > population would have difficulty harvesting even a large supply of
                                    > biomass
                                    > and scarcity would persist. As far as those large readily available
                                    > fossil-fuel reserves are concerned, soon they shall be gone forever.
                                    >
                                    > Outline of Likely Effects of a Plentiful Energy Budget under
                                    > Contrasting
                                    > Social Conditions
                                    >
                                    > I. Wrongful Use ( competition for wealth and power)
                                    > A. Health risk and discomfort
                                    > 1. chemical and radiative pollution
                                    > 2. space pollution (junk in outer space)
                                    > 3. noise
                                    > 4. light pollution (we can’t see the stars, which is all we wanted
                                    > of them)
                                    > 5. information pollution (lies, propaganda, drivel)
                                    > 6. excessive motion leading to stress
                                    > 7. crowding
                                    > 8. disappearance of wilderness
                                    > 9. extinctions of species
                                    > 10. population growth
                                    > 11. ugliness
                                    > 12. urbanization
                                    > a. garbage
                                    > b. sewage
                                    > 13. crime
                                    > 14. insanity
                                    > 15. etc.
                                    > B. Useless consumer products and deceptive marketing
                                    > C. More junkpiles and less space
                                    > D. Wasted effort
                                    > E. Unpleasant jobs
                                    > F. CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH AND POWER
                                    > G. TOTALITARIANISM
                                    > H. WAR
                                    > II. Proper Uses (cooperation)
                                    > A. Population control
                                    > B. Pollution control
                                    > 1. Purification of all waste streams
                                    > 2. Separation and recycle of all junk
                                    > C. Decentralization (deurbanization)
                                    > D. Mass communication
                                    > E. Equality of wealth, power, and fame
                                    > F. Abundant living without excessive work, perhaps none for people
                                    > who hate
                                    > work. Of course, many people will work on personal projects
                                    > interesting to
                                    > themselves only, one of which might save the world in some easily
                                    > imagined
                                    > scenario.
                                    > G. Etc.
                                    >
                                    > [Note in proof (1-26-97). Even supposing that we have abandoned
                                    > materialism,
                                    > an excessively lavish emergy supply will only make it harder to
                                    > abide by the
                                    > spirit and the letter of the social contract derived from our
                                    > minimal proper
                                    > religion. Overconsumption and population growth might be hard to
                                    > resist.
                                    > Nevertheless, in keeping with the view of humanity that, in Chapter
                                    > 4 of
                                    > this essay, is assumed to be a good enough approximation to the
                                    > correct
                                    > view, I shall continue to trust humanity to do the right thing.
                                    > Undoubtedly,
                                    > this point is moot as emergy will always be scarce. In case it
                                    > turns out
                                    > that I am wrong, I hope future generations forgive my lack of
                                    > prescience, as
                                    > I forgive past and present generations who can’t read the future or
                                    > who
                                    > can’t see the world as it actually is. Remember, many of you have
                                    > acted (or
                                    > continue to act) unwisely; however, I will have acted prudently. It is
                                    > better to have planned for a calamity that doesn’t occur than not
                                    > to have
                                    > prepared
                                    > for one that does!]
                                    >
                                    > [end of selection from Chapter 2]
                                    >
                                    > I hope this helps to clarify my position.
                                    >
                                    > Best regards,
                                    > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                    >
                                    > Steve Bosserman
                                    > yahoo.com> wrote:
                                    > Hi Tom,
                                    >
                                    > In reading your treatise about "dematerialism," your deep analysis
                                    > shows a
                                    > profound level of commitment to giving the issues surrounding our
                                    > choices
                                    > about what, how much, and in what way we consume a very thorough
                                    > investigation. However, this prompts a question. It is my
                                    > impression that
                                    > you are associating the use of fossil fuel (heading toward inevitable
                                    > depletion and polluting the environment more and more along the
                                    > way), with
                                    > consumption (unchecked materialism), and commerce (in this case, the
                                    > confluence of capitalism, finance, and industry spurring unnecessary
                                    > competition, wastefulness of natural and human resources, and
                                    > greediness to
                                    > accumulate excessive wealth at the expense of countless others). If my
                                    > understanding is correct, under what conditions would we be living
                                    > now if,
                                    > through some miracle of development 300 years ago, our energy needs
                                    > had been
                                    > and continue to be met by solar power (as an example) in lieu of
                                    > fossil
                                    > fuel? To ask the question another way, is it your opinion that the
                                    > phenomena of consumption and commerce as experienced today are the
                                    > inevitable outcomes of flawed systems that doom us to destruction
                                    > irrespective of the energy source used to drive technological
                                    > advancement OR
                                    > did the use of fossil fuel distort the functionality of plausible
                                    > systems to
                                    > behave in undesirable ways? This may be covered in your paper, but
                                    > if so, I
                                    > missed it. Thanks in advance for your consideration.
                                    >
                                    > Best regards,
                                    >
                                    > Steve B.
                                    >
                                    > _____
                                    >
                                    > From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                                    > [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou
                                    > ps.com] On
                                    > Behalf
                                    > Of Tom Wayburn
                                    > Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 10:39 PM
                                    > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Steve Bosserman, good to hear from you!
                                    >
                                    > Andrius,
                                    >
                                    > I have gone to a lot of trouble to show arithmetically that business,
                                    > markets, buying and selling, the profit motive are inconsistent with
                                    > sustainability. I understand that not everyone on this list can
                                    > afford to
                                    > forego earning money; however, all of us should be aware that most
                                    > things we
                                    > do to earn money set back the cause of sustainability in one way or
                                    > another
                                    > and eventually must be rejected by a society that hopes to avoid a
                                    > massive
                                    > die-off. I get tired of pointing out the papers and computational
                                    > studies I
                                    > have already finished that prove these points. I continue work on
                                    > the Mark
                                    > II Economy to produce an educational tool that might be used or
                                    > improved
                                    > upon to create a wider understanding of the types of political
                                    > changes that
                                    > sustainability requires.
                                    >
                                    > Tom
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                    > Blog: http://dematerialis
                                    > m.blogspot.com/
                                    > Website: http://dematerialis m.net/
                                    > Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post:
                                    > twayburn@wt. net
                                    > If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to
                                    > twayburn@yahoo.
                                    > com .
                                    >
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                                    >
                                    > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                    > Blog: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/>
                                    m.blogspot.com/
                                    > Website: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/
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                                  • Tom Wayburn
                                    Well, let s see what happens. Tom Steve Bosserman wrote: Hi Tom, A great suggestion from Jon was given a great follow-up by you.
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Aug 30, 2006
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                                      Well, let's see what happens.

                                      Tom

                                      Steve Bosserman <stevebosserman@...> wrote:
                                      Hi Tom,

                                      A great suggestion from Jon was given a great follow-up by you. This brings
                                      up a possibility for you to consider as you move ahead in your
                                      communications with the Pachamama Alliance (and other groups of similar vein
                                      you may tap). Would you be willing to post the results of your exchanges on
                                      this site? While several in Cyfranogi may have knowledge about and history
                                      with the Alliance, I am not one of them. However, I would like to learn
                                      about this organization through your experiences. Beyond the learning
                                      people like me receive there is the likelihood that those who are more
                                      knowledgeable about the Alliance can help you establish a viable connection
                                      should you need it. In addition, the door is opened for the Alliance to
                                      discover how it can present itself in a more accessible and responsive
                                      manner to a wider public should they need it.

                                      The point is the steps you have embarked upon below are imbued with a deeper
                                      significance than first imagined for you, for us at Cyfranogi, for groups
                                      like the Pachamama Alliance, and for those who travel this way in the
                                      future. This process of shared learning, meaning-making, network-building,
                                      community-supporting is one expression of “community currency” and open
                                      economy which Cyfranogi is all about.

                                      Thanks in advance for your consideration. I’m looking forward to hearing
                                      about your experiences and noting where I can be of help.

                                      Best regards,

                                      Steve B.

                                      _____

                                      From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                      Of Tom Wayburn
                                      Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 4:17 AM
                                      To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Fighting Scarcity with Cooperation

                                      Steve and Jon,

                                      Just this minute I sent the following letter to the Pachamama Alliance:

                                      Dear Friends,

                                      I am an independent scholar devoting his declining years to the best
                                      research he has ever done. I have no income and no sponsorship of any kind.
                                      Therefore, my results cannot be influenced by ideology. (My own ideas are
                                      enough for me.) What I need is help in reaching other people with the
                                      powerful messages my computational studies and my investigation into
                                      morality contain. Please take a look at my website http://dematerialis
                                      <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/ and my latest paper http://dematerialis
                                      <http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html> m.net/Mark-II-Economy.html
                                      (in which I illustrate the importance of abandoning market conomics*) to
                                      determine if I can be of any use to you. I am unable to assist you
                                      financially as no one other than my wife is assisting me.

                                      *I hope that you agree with me that market economies are intrinsically
                                      unsustainable and must be abandoned in favor of planned economies or, better
                                      yet, give-away economies. My dilemma is how to convince people that this is
                                      true in the face of 116 years of anti-communist propaganda even though it is
                                      proved mathematically. To begin with, I can't get them to read
                                      http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html.>
                                      m.net/Mark-II-Economy.html. If my spreadsheet simulator could be made into a
                                      fascinating computer game, perhaps young people would "accidentally"
                                      convince themselves that it is true.

                                      Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                      http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/
                                      http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/> m.blogspot.com/

                                      Tom Wayburn <twayburn@yahoo. <mailto:twayburn%40yahoo.com> com> wrote:
                                      Thanks, Jon Love, I shall be looking into the Pachamama Alliance this very
                                      hour. I wondered if anyone else were listening to our conversation. Now I
                                      know.

                                      Best regards,
                                      Tom

                                      Jon Love <jonlove@mac. <mailto:jonlove%40mac.com> com> wrote:
                                      Tom and Steve,

                                      As a reader of the posts on this list I have learned a lot and been
                                      provoked to critical thinking on many occasions. In the interest of
                                      brevity at the moment, I would like to call your attention to a
                                      program developed by an organization called "the Pachamama Alliance,"
                                      which is a one-day symposium designed to "wake people up" to the
                                      "dream" of the modern world, and the web of unexamined assumptions
                                      that drive our behavior in ways that produce an unjust, unfulfilling
                                      and unsustainable human presence on earth. Check it out here: http://
                                      www.pachamama.org/atd/

                                      This piece of work does actually reach people, and moves them from
                                      denial to action.

                                      On another note, there is one aspect of development that actually has
                                      been shown to reduce population growth rather than increase it.
                                      Notice that the "native replacement rate" (the rate of increase that
                                      a country would experience without immigration or emigration) is
                                      negative in many industrialized countries. It seems that as infant
                                      mortality falls and women's level of eduction rises there is a huge
                                      drop in birth rates - the statistical correlation is convincing - It
                                      seems women who have alternatives to motherhood to make life
                                      meaningful, and who have confidence that their first and second
                                      children are more likely to live than to die, make different choices
                                      and family size falls rapidly.

                                      I would say that it is the green revolution in concert with lack of
                                      health care and women's education that has led to the egregious
                                      expansion of populations in countries that cannot now provide for
                                      them adequately.

                                      Thanks,

                                      Jon Love

                                      On Aug 27, 2006, at 10:54 PM, Tom Wayburn wrote:

                                      > Steve,
                                      >
                                      > I think you are a person who might have some ideas about
                                      > ultimately getting people to change and as a prelude to that
                                      > getting them to discover certain facts of life that we both feel
                                      > they should understand even though their ability to earn a living
                                      > may depend upon them not understanding them. In particular, we
                                      > need people to understand that economic growth is undesirable
                                      > except in the least developed countries that need to grow as we
                                      > shrink until we meet somewhere in between.
                                      >
                                      > I have been singularly unsuccessful in raising the level of
                                      > understanding among the people who contribute to this forum even.
                                      > Someone needs to teach me how to reach people.
                                      >
                                      > Tom
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Steve Bosserman wrote:
                                      > Hi Tom,
                                      >
                                      > Thanks for your quick response. If I am following your logic, it
                                      > appears
                                      > that humanity has a treacherous path ahead regardless of how
                                      > plentiful and
                                      > benign the energy. This difficulty is due to the “immorality” of
                                      > various
                                      > systems we humans have put in place to “manage” behavior. Scarcity
                                      > spawns
                                      > fear and greed. This creates an enormous opportunity for those who are
                                      > unabashed at using fear to their advantage. Indeed, they are loath to
                                      > change the rules.
                                      >
                                      > Some suggest that cooperation engenders a sense of abundance, but
                                      > as you
                                      > mention there may very well not be enough to go around whether
                                      > motivation is
                                      > cooperative or competitive. Nonetheless, the more scarcity the more
                                      > people
                                      > are driven by their instincts to perpetuate the species and the
                                      > more the
                                      > human population grows. In addition, people whose survival is at
                                      > risk leave
                                      > where they are and migrate elsewhere to seek relief. More often
                                      > than not,
                                      > their destination is an urban area that is already over-burdened and
                                      > maladaptive. In many instances their circumstances are made worse—
                                      > and the
                                      > world loses.
                                      >
                                      > This suggests that to reduce the perception that unchecked scarcity
                                      > reigns
                                      > supreme lessens the pressure to propagate, which slows population
                                      > growth and
                                      > migration—and the world benefits. Inculcating people in the ways of
                                      > cooperation is a very powerful approach in creating that
                                      > impression. How to
                                      > do that, though, is quite a challenge.
                                      >
                                      > Each of us engages in the battle against the threat of scarcity on
                                      > multiple
                                      > fronts: personally, locally, and globally. The arena of meaningful
                                      > action
                                      > is quite extensive. It is clear you have considerable experience
                                      > fighting
                                      > the good fight for a more cooperative existence beyond exhorting
                                      > others to
                                      > do so. What works for you? How do you carry your thinking into
                                      > purposeful
                                      > action in your life at home, in the Houston area (number two in
                                      > urban sprawl
                                      > in the USA), and in the larger domains of national and international
                                      > politics? What vulnerabilities do you see in the current system
                                      > that can be
                                      > readily exploited?
                                      >
                                      > Thanks in advance for your response. There are several ways I have
                                      > in mind
                                      > to apply your work in turning the dial of cooperation, but I would
                                      > rather
                                      > hear what you are doing so that what I might propose is aligned
                                      > rather than
                                      > oblique. Looking forward to it!
                                      >
                                      > Best regards,
                                      >
                                      > Steve B.
                                      >
                                      > _____
                                      >
                                      > From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                      [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com]
                                      > On Behalf
                                      > Of Tom Wayburn
                                      > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 5:27 PM
                                      > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                      > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Fossil Fuel, Consumption, and Commerce
                                      >
                                      > Thanks, Steve, for looking at my work. Clearly, a model of
                                      > acquisitiveness,
                                      > consumption, and economic growth cannot be sustained in a finite
                                      > world. Many
                                      > writers have discussed the immorality of a system that is based
                                      > upon greed
                                      > and fear. It is not just that many will do anything for profit;
                                      > but, for
                                      > most others, if they do not do whatever they can, they will perish.
                                      > Therefore, if capitalism had been based upon an unlimited
                                      > sustainable energy
                                      > source - or virtually unlimited if, for example, we could harvest
                                      > all of the
                                      > 185,000 terrawatts radiating the earth from the sun - we would
                                      > still be in
                                      > enormous difficulties of a moral nature even supposing we could
                                      > escape the
                                      > earth whose large distances from other habitable planets
                                      > constitutes a sort
                                      > of quarantine of man's corrupted nature from contact with other
                                      > sentient
                                      > beings who might suffer immeasurably from contact with human beings.
                                      >
                                      > In Chapter 2 of my book I made an outline of some of the likely
                                      > effects of a
                                      > plentiful energy scenario:
                                      >
                                      > from http://dematerialis
                                      >
                                      > m.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170713
                                      >
                                      > Drawbacks and Advantages of a Large Energy Budget
                                      > It is not necessary to prove that every technology capable of
                                      > supplying
                                      > plentiful high-grade energy must fail. It is clear that plentiful
                                      > energy
                                      > would not be a blessing in a materialistic world. When I was first
                                      > told of
                                      > cold fusion, I hoped it would turn out to be a failure. The first
                                      > thing that
                                      > popped into my head was traffic on the interstates multiplied a
                                      > hundred-fold
                                      > all over the globe. Do we really want to turn the world into Loop 610?
                                      >
                                      > On the other hand, in a cooperative world, (I have claimed) energy
                                      > would be
                                      > used wisely as there would be no incentive to use it selfishly and
                                      > stupidly.
                                      > (You see; I, too, make use of incentive arguments that presume some
                                      > knowledge of human nature. I claim that the knowledge I profess has
                                      > a better
                                      > basis in fact than theories that deny intrinsic motivation. After
                                      > all, I am
                                      > claiming only what everyone believes. We have never given intrinsic
                                      > motivation a chance, but we can see for ourselves – even feel for
                                      > ourselves
                                      > – the power of intrinsic motivation when it is allowed to function.)
                                      >
                                      > For a change, I shall present only an outline of the drawbacks and
                                      > advantages of a plentiful (high-grade) energy budget – even though
                                      > I believe
                                      > that, unless the population be reduced considerably, energy shall
                                      > continue
                                      > to be scarce. Thus, I haven’t much hope for a large population;
                                      > however, a
                                      > small population might encounter serious obstacles too. Perhaps a
                                      > small
                                      > population would have difficulty harvesting even a large supply of
                                      > biomass
                                      > and scarcity would persist. As far as those large readily available
                                      > fossil-fuel reserves are concerned, soon they shall be gone forever.
                                      >
                                      > Outline of Likely Effects of a Plentiful Energy Budget under
                                      > Contrasting
                                      > Social Conditions
                                      >
                                      > I. Wrongful Use ( competition for wealth and power)
                                      > A. Health risk and discomfort
                                      > 1. chemical and radiative pollution
                                      > 2. space pollution (junk in outer space)
                                      > 3. noise
                                      > 4. light pollution (we can’t see the stars, which is all we wanted
                                      > of them)
                                      > 5. information pollution (lies, propaganda, drivel)
                                      > 6. excessive motion leading to stress
                                      > 7. crowding
                                      > 8. disappearance of wilderness
                                      > 9. extinctions of species
                                      > 10. population growth
                                      > 11. ugliness
                                      > 12. urbanization
                                      > a. garbage
                                      > b. sewage
                                      > 13. crime
                                      > 14. insanity
                                      > 15. etc.
                                      > B. Useless consumer products and deceptive marketing
                                      > C. More junkpiles and less space
                                      > D. Wasted effort
                                      > E. Unpleasant jobs
                                      > F. CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH AND POWER
                                      > G. TOTALITARIANISM
                                      > H. WAR
                                      > II. Proper Uses (cooperation)
                                      > A. Population control
                                      > B. Pollution control
                                      > 1. Purification of all waste streams
                                      > 2. Separation and recycle of all junk
                                      > C. Decentralization (deurbanization)
                                      > D. Mass communication
                                      > E. Equality of wealth, power, and fame
                                      > F. Abundant living without excessive work, perhaps none for people
                                      > who hate
                                      > work. Of course, many people will work on personal projects
                                      > interesting to
                                      > themselves only, one of which might save the world in some easily
                                      > imagined
                                      > scenario.
                                      > G. Etc.
                                      >
                                      > [Note in proof (1-26-97). Even supposing that we have abandoned
                                      > materialism,
                                      > an excessively lavish emergy supply will only make it harder to
                                      > abide by the
                                      > spirit and the letter of the social contract derived from our
                                      > minimal proper
                                      > religion. Overconsumption and population growth might be hard to
                                      > resist.
                                      > Nevertheless, in keeping with the view of humanity that, in Chapter
                                      > 4 of
                                      > this essay, is assumed to be a good enough approximation to the
                                      > correct
                                      > view, I shall continue to trust humanity to do the right thing.
                                      > Undoubtedly,
                                      > this point is moot as emergy will always be scarce. In case it
                                      > turns out
                                      > that I am wrong, I hope future generations forgive my lack of
                                      > prescience, as
                                      > I forgive past and present generations who can’t read the future or
                                      > who
                                      > can’t see the world as it actually is. Remember, many of you have
                                      > acted (or
                                      > continue to act) unwisely; however, I will have acted prudently. It is
                                      > better to have planned for a calamity that doesn’t occur than not
                                      > to have
                                      > prepared
                                      > for one that does!]
                                      >
                                      > [end of selection from Chapter 2]
                                      >
                                      > I hope this helps to clarify my position.
                                      >
                                      > Best regards,
                                      > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                      >
                                      > Steve Bosserman
                                      > yahoo.com> wrote:
                                      > Hi Tom,
                                      >
                                      > In reading your treatise about "dematerialism," your deep analysis
                                      > shows a
                                      > profound level of commitment to giving the issues surrounding our
                                      > choices
                                      > about what, how much, and in what way we consume a very thorough
                                      > investigation. However, this prompts a question. It is my
                                      > impression that
                                      > you are associating the use of fossil fuel (heading toward inevitable
                                      > depletion and polluting the environment more and more along the
                                      > way), with
                                      > consumption (unchecked materialism), and commerce (in this case, the
                                      > confluence of capitalism, finance, and industry spurring unnecessary
                                      > competition, wastefulness of natural and human resources, and
                                      > greediness to
                                      > accumulate excessive wealth at the expense of countless others). If my
                                      > understanding is correct, under what conditions would we be living
                                      > now if,
                                      > through some miracle of development 300 years ago, our energy needs
                                      > had been
                                      > and continue to be met by solar power (as an example) in lieu of
                                      > fossil
                                      > fuel? To ask the question another way, is it your opinion that the
                                      > phenomena of consumption and commerce as experienced today are the
                                      > inevitable outcomes of flawed systems that doom us to destruction
                                      > irrespective of the energy source used to drive technological
                                      > advancement OR
                                      > did the use of fossil fuel distort the functionality of plausible
                                      > systems to
                                      > behave in undesirable ways? This may be covered in your paper, but
                                      > if so, I
                                      > missed it. Thanks in advance for your consideration.
                                      >
                                      > Best regards,
                                      >
                                      > Steve B.
                                      >
                                      > _____
                                      >
                                      > From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                                      > [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou
                                      > ps.com] On
                                      > Behalf
                                      > Of Tom Wayburn
                                      > Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 10:39 PM
                                      > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                                      > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Steve Bosserman, good to hear from you!
                                      >
                                      > Andrius,
                                      >
                                      > I have gone to a lot of trouble to show arithmetically that business,
                                      > markets, buying and selling, the profit motive are inconsistent with
                                      > sustainability. I understand that not everyone on this list can
                                      > afford to
                                      > forego earning money; however, all of us should be aware that most
                                      > things we
                                      > do to earn money set back the cause of sustainability in one way or
                                      > another
                                      > and eventually must be rejected by a society that hopes to avoid a
                                      > massive
                                      > die-off. I get tired of pointing out the papers and computational
                                      > studies I
                                      > have already finished that prove these points. I continue work on
                                      > the Mark
                                      > II Economy to produce an educational tool that might be used or
                                      > improved
                                      > upon to create a wider understanding of the types of political
                                      > changes that
                                      > sustainability requires.
                                      >
                                      > Tom
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                      > Blog: http://dematerialis
                                      > m.blogspot.com/
                                      > Website: http://dematerialis m.net/
                                      > Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post:
                                      > twayburn@wt. net
                                      > If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to
                                      > twayburn@yahoo.
                                      > com .
                                      >
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                                      > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                      > Blog: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/>
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                                      > Website: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/
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                                    • Tom Wayburn
                                      Well, let s see what happens. Tom Steve Bosserman wrote: Hi Tom, A great suggestion from Jon was given a great follow-up by you.
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Aug 30, 2006
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                                        Well, let's see what happens.

                                        Tom

                                        Steve Bosserman <stevebosserman@...> wrote:
                                        Hi Tom,

                                        A great suggestion from Jon was given a great follow-up by you. This brings
                                        up a possibility for you to consider as you move ahead in your
                                        communications with the Pachamama Alliance (and other groups of similar vein
                                        you may tap). Would you be willing to post the results of your exchanges on
                                        this site? While several in Cyfranogi may have knowledge about and history
                                        with the Alliance, I am not one of them. However, I would like to learn
                                        about this organization through your experiences. Beyond the learning
                                        people like me receive there is the likelihood that those who are more
                                        knowledgeable about the Alliance can help you establish a viable connection
                                        should you need it. In addition, the door is opened for the Alliance to
                                        discover how it can present itself in a more accessible and responsive
                                        manner to a wider public should they need it.

                                        The point is the steps you have embarked upon below are imbued with a deeper
                                        significance than first imagined for you, for us at Cyfranogi, for groups
                                        like the Pachamama Alliance, and for those who travel this way in the
                                        future. This process of shared learning, meaning-making, network-building,
                                        community-supporting is one expression of “community currency” and open
                                        economy which Cyfranogi is all about.

                                        Thanks in advance for your consideration. I’m looking forward to hearing
                                        about your experiences and noting where I can be of help.

                                        Best regards,

                                        Steve B.

                                        _____

                                        From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                        Of Tom Wayburn
                                        Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 4:17 AM
                                        To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Fighting Scarcity with Cooperation

                                        Steve and Jon,

                                        Just this minute I sent the following letter to the Pachamama Alliance:

                                        Dear Friends,

                                        I am an independent scholar devoting his declining years to the best
                                        research he has ever done. I have no income and no sponsorship of any kind.
                                        Therefore, my results cannot be influenced by ideology. (My own ideas are
                                        enough for me.) What I need is help in reaching other people with the
                                        powerful messages my computational studies and my investigation into
                                        morality contain. Please take a look at my website http://dematerialis
                                        <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/ and my latest paper http://dematerialis
                                        <http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html> m.net/Mark-II-Economy.html
                                        (in which I illustrate the importance of abandoning market conomics*) to
                                        determine if I can be of any use to you. I am unable to assist you
                                        financially as no one other than my wife is assisting me.

                                        *I hope that you agree with me that market economies are intrinsically
                                        unsustainable and must be abandoned in favor of planned economies or, better
                                        yet, give-away economies. My dilemma is how to convince people that this is
                                        true in the face of 116 years of anti-communist propaganda even though it is
                                        proved mathematically. To begin with, I can't get them to read
                                        http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html.>
                                        m.net/Mark-II-Economy.html. If my spreadsheet simulator could be made into a
                                        fascinating computer game, perhaps young people would "accidentally"
                                        convince themselves that it is true.

                                        Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                        http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/
                                        http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/> m.blogspot.com/

                                        Tom Wayburn <twayburn@yahoo. <mailto:twayburn%40yahoo.com> com> wrote:
                                        Thanks, Jon Love, I shall be looking into the Pachamama Alliance this very
                                        hour. I wondered if anyone else were listening to our conversation. Now I
                                        know.

                                        Best regards,
                                        Tom

                                        Jon Love <jonlove@mac. <mailto:jonlove%40mac.com> com> wrote:
                                        Tom and Steve,

                                        As a reader of the posts on this list I have learned a lot and been
                                        provoked to critical thinking on many occasions. In the interest of
                                        brevity at the moment, I would like to call your attention to a
                                        program developed by an organization called "the Pachamama Alliance,"
                                        which is a one-day symposium designed to "wake people up" to the
                                        "dream" of the modern world, and the web of unexamined assumptions
                                        that drive our behavior in ways that produce an unjust, unfulfilling
                                        and unsustainable human presence on earth. Check it out here: http://
                                        www.pachamama.org/atd/

                                        This piece of work does actually reach people, and moves them from
                                        denial to action.

                                        On another note, there is one aspect of development that actually has
                                        been shown to reduce population growth rather than increase it.
                                        Notice that the "native replacement rate" (the rate of increase that
                                        a country would experience without immigration or emigration) is
                                        negative in many industrialized countries. It seems that as infant
                                        mortality falls and women's level of eduction rises there is a huge
                                        drop in birth rates - the statistical correlation is convincing - It
                                        seems women who have alternatives to motherhood to make life
                                        meaningful, and who have confidence that their first and second
                                        children are more likely to live than to die, make different choices
                                        and family size falls rapidly.

                                        I would say that it is the green revolution in concert with lack of
                                        health care and women's education that has led to the egregious
                                        expansion of populations in countries that cannot now provide for
                                        them adequately.

                                        Thanks,

                                        Jon Love

                                        On Aug 27, 2006, at 10:54 PM, Tom Wayburn wrote:

                                        > Steve,
                                        >
                                        > I think you are a person who might have some ideas about
                                        > ultimately getting people to change and as a prelude to that
                                        > getting them to discover certain facts of life that we both feel
                                        > they should understand even though their ability to earn a living
                                        > may depend upon them not understanding them. In particular, we
                                        > need people to understand that economic growth is undesirable
                                        > except in the least developed countries that need to grow as we
                                        > shrink until we meet somewhere in between.
                                        >
                                        > I have been singularly unsuccessful in raising the level of
                                        > understanding among the people who contribute to this forum even.
                                        > Someone needs to teach me how to reach people.
                                        >
                                        > Tom
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Steve Bosserman wrote:
                                        > Hi Tom,
                                        >
                                        > Thanks for your quick response. If I am following your logic, it
                                        > appears
                                        > that humanity has a treacherous path ahead regardless of how
                                        > plentiful and
                                        > benign the energy. This difficulty is due to the “immorality” of
                                        > various
                                        > systems we humans have put in place to “manage” behavior. Scarcity
                                        > spawns
                                        > fear and greed. This creates an enormous opportunity for those who are
                                        > unabashed at using fear to their advantage. Indeed, they are loath to
                                        > change the rules.
                                        >
                                        > Some suggest that cooperation engenders a sense of abundance, but
                                        > as you
                                        > mention there may very well not be enough to go around whether
                                        > motivation is
                                        > cooperative or competitive. Nonetheless, the more scarcity the more
                                        > people
                                        > are driven by their instincts to perpetuate the species and the
                                        > more the
                                        > human population grows. In addition, people whose survival is at
                                        > risk leave
                                        > where they are and migrate elsewhere to seek relief. More often
                                        > than not,
                                        > their destination is an urban area that is already over-burdened and
                                        > maladaptive. In many instances their circumstances are made worse—
                                        > and the
                                        > world loses.
                                        >
                                        > This suggests that to reduce the perception that unchecked scarcity
                                        > reigns
                                        > supreme lessens the pressure to propagate, which slows population
                                        > growth and
                                        > migration—and the world benefits. Inculcating people in the ways of
                                        > cooperation is a very powerful approach in creating that
                                        > impression. How to
                                        > do that, though, is quite a challenge.
                                        >
                                        > Each of us engages in the battle against the threat of scarcity on
                                        > multiple
                                        > fronts: personally, locally, and globally. The arena of meaningful
                                        > action
                                        > is quite extensive. It is clear you have considerable experience
                                        > fighting
                                        > the good fight for a more cooperative existence beyond exhorting
                                        > others to
                                        > do so. What works for you? How do you carry your thinking into
                                        > purposeful
                                        > action in your life at home, in the Houston area (number two in
                                        > urban sprawl
                                        > in the USA), and in the larger domains of national and international
                                        > politics? What vulnerabilities do you see in the current system
                                        > that can be
                                        > readily exploited?
                                        >
                                        > Thanks in advance for your response. There are several ways I have
                                        > in mind
                                        > to apply your work in turning the dial of cooperation, but I would
                                        > rather
                                        > hear what you are doing so that what I might propose is aligned
                                        > rather than
                                        > oblique. Looking forward to it!
                                        >
                                        > Best regards,
                                        >
                                        > Steve B.
                                        >
                                        > _____
                                        >
                                        > From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                        [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com]
                                        > On Behalf
                                        > Of Tom Wayburn
                                        > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 5:27 PM
                                        > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                        > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Fossil Fuel, Consumption, and Commerce
                                        >
                                        > Thanks, Steve, for looking at my work. Clearly, a model of
                                        > acquisitiveness,
                                        > consumption, and economic growth cannot be sustained in a finite
                                        > world. Many
                                        > writers have discussed the immorality of a system that is based
                                        > upon greed
                                        > and fear. It is not just that many will do anything for profit;
                                        > but, for
                                        > most others, if they do not do whatever they can, they will perish.
                                        > Therefore, if capitalism had been based upon an unlimited
                                        > sustainable energy
                                        > source - or virtually unlimited if, for example, we could harvest
                                        > all of the
                                        > 185,000 terrawatts radiating the earth from the sun - we would
                                        > still be in
                                        > enormous difficulties of a moral nature even supposing we could
                                        > escape the
                                        > earth whose large distances from other habitable planets
                                        > constitutes a sort
                                        > of quarantine of man's corrupted nature from contact with other
                                        > sentient
                                        > beings who might suffer immeasurably from contact with human beings.
                                        >
                                        > In Chapter 2 of my book I made an outline of some of the likely
                                        > effects of a
                                        > plentiful energy scenario:
                                        >
                                        > from http://dematerialis
                                        >
                                        > m.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170713
                                        >
                                        > Drawbacks and Advantages of a Large Energy Budget
                                        > It is not necessary to prove that every technology capable of
                                        > supplying
                                        > plentiful high-grade energy must fail. It is clear that plentiful
                                        > energy
                                        > would not be a blessing in a materialistic world. When I was first
                                        > told of
                                        > cold fusion, I hoped it would turn out to be a failure. The first
                                        > thing that
                                        > popped into my head was traffic on the interstates multiplied a
                                        > hundred-fold
                                        > all over the globe. Do we really want to turn the world into Loop 610?
                                        >
                                        > On the other hand, in a cooperative world, (I have claimed) energy
                                        > would be
                                        > used wisely as there would be no incentive to use it selfishly and
                                        > stupidly.
                                        > (You see; I, too, make use of incentive arguments that presume some
                                        > knowledge of human nature. I claim that the knowledge I profess has
                                        > a better
                                        > basis in fact than theories that deny intrinsic motivation. After
                                        > all, I am
                                        > claiming only what everyone believes. We have never given intrinsic
                                        > motivation a chance, but we can see for ourselves – even feel for
                                        > ourselves
                                        > – the power of intrinsic motivation when it is allowed to function.)
                                        >
                                        > For a change, I shall present only an outline of the drawbacks and
                                        > advantages of a plentiful (high-grade) energy budget – even though
                                        > I believe
                                        > that, unless the population be reduced considerably, energy shall
                                        > continue
                                        > to be scarce. Thus, I haven’t much hope for a large population;
                                        > however, a
                                        > small population might encounter serious obstacles too. Perhaps a
                                        > small
                                        > population would have difficulty harvesting even a large supply of
                                        > biomass
                                        > and scarcity would persist. As far as those large readily available
                                        > fossil-fuel reserves are concerned, soon they shall be gone forever.
                                        >
                                        > Outline of Likely Effects of a Plentiful Energy Budget under
                                        > Contrasting
                                        > Social Conditions
                                        >
                                        > I. Wrongful Use ( competition for wealth and power)
                                        > A. Health risk and discomfort
                                        > 1. chemical and radiative pollution
                                        > 2. space pollution (junk in outer space)
                                        > 3. noise
                                        > 4. light pollution (we can’t see the stars, which is all we wanted
                                        > of them)
                                        > 5. information pollution (lies, propaganda, drivel)
                                        > 6. excessive motion leading to stress
                                        > 7. crowding
                                        > 8. disappearance of wilderness
                                        > 9. extinctions of species
                                        > 10. population growth
                                        > 11. ugliness
                                        > 12. urbanization
                                        > a. garbage
                                        > b. sewage
                                        > 13. crime
                                        > 14. insanity
                                        > 15. etc.
                                        > B. Useless consumer products and deceptive marketing
                                        > C. More junkpiles and less space
                                        > D. Wasted effort
                                        > E. Unpleasant jobs
                                        > F. CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH AND POWER
                                        > G. TOTALITARIANISM
                                        > H. WAR
                                        > II. Proper Uses (cooperation)
                                        > A. Population control
                                        > B. Pollution control
                                        > 1. Purification of all waste streams
                                        > 2. Separation and recycle of all junk
                                        > C. Decentralization (deurbanization)
                                        > D. Mass communication
                                        > E. Equality of wealth, power, and fame
                                        > F. Abundant living without excessive work, perhaps none for people
                                        > who hate
                                        > work. Of course, many people will work on personal projects
                                        > interesting to
                                        > themselves only, one of which might save the world in some easily
                                        > imagined
                                        > scenario.
                                        > G. Etc.
                                        >
                                        > [Note in proof (1-26-97). Even supposing that we have abandoned
                                        > materialism,
                                        > an excessively lavish emergy supply will only make it harder to
                                        > abide by the
                                        > spirit and the letter of the social contract derived from our
                                        > minimal proper
                                        > religion. Overconsumption and population growth might be hard to
                                        > resist.
                                        > Nevertheless, in keeping with the view of humanity that, in Chapter
                                        > 4 of
                                        > this essay, is assumed to be a good enough approximation to the
                                        > correct
                                        > view, I shall continue to trust humanity to do the right thing.
                                        > Undoubtedly,
                                        > this point is moot as emergy will always be scarce. In case it
                                        > turns out
                                        > that I am wrong, I hope future generations forgive my lack of
                                        > prescience, as
                                        > I forgive past and present generations who can’t read the future or
                                        > who
                                        > can’t see the world as it actually is. Remember, many of you have
                                        > acted (or
                                        > continue to act) unwisely; however, I will have acted prudently. It is
                                        > better to have planned for a calamity that doesn’t occur than not
                                        > to have
                                        > prepared
                                        > for one that does!]
                                        >
                                        > [end of selection from Chapter 2]
                                        >
                                        > I hope this helps to clarify my position.
                                        >
                                        > Best regards,
                                        > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                        >
                                        > Steve Bosserman
                                        > yahoo.com> wrote:
                                        > Hi Tom,
                                        >
                                        > In reading your treatise about "dematerialism," your deep analysis
                                        > shows a
                                        > profound level of commitment to giving the issues surrounding our
                                        > choices
                                        > about what, how much, and in what way we consume a very thorough
                                        > investigation. However, this prompts a question. It is my
                                        > impression that
                                        > you are associating the use of fossil fuel (heading toward inevitable
                                        > depletion and polluting the environment more and more along the
                                        > way), with
                                        > consumption (unchecked materialism), and commerce (in this case, the
                                        > confluence of capitalism, finance, and industry spurring unnecessary
                                        > competition, wastefulness of natural and human resources, and
                                        > greediness to
                                        > accumulate excessive wealth at the expense of countless others). If my
                                        > understanding is correct, under what conditions would we be living
                                        > now if,
                                        > through some miracle of development 300 years ago, our energy needs
                                        > had been
                                        > and continue to be met by solar power (as an example) in lieu of
                                        > fossil
                                        > fuel? To ask the question another way, is it your opinion that the
                                        > phenomena of consumption and commerce as experienced today are the
                                        > inevitable outcomes of flawed systems that doom us to destruction
                                        > irrespective of the energy source used to drive technological
                                        > advancement OR
                                        > did the use of fossil fuel distort the functionality of plausible
                                        > systems to
                                        > behave in undesirable ways? This may be covered in your paper, but
                                        > if so, I
                                        > missed it. Thanks in advance for your consideration.
                                        >
                                        > Best regards,
                                        >
                                        > Steve B.
                                        >
                                        > _____
                                        >
                                        > From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                                        > [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou
                                        > ps.com] On
                                        > Behalf
                                        > Of Tom Wayburn
                                        > Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 10:39 PM
                                        > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                                        > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Steve Bosserman, good to hear from you!
                                        >
                                        > Andrius,
                                        >
                                        > I have gone to a lot of trouble to show arithmetically that business,
                                        > markets, buying and selling, the profit motive are inconsistent with
                                        > sustainability. I understand that not everyone on this list can
                                        > afford to
                                        > forego earning money; however, all of us should be aware that most
                                        > things we
                                        > do to earn money set back the cause of sustainability in one way or
                                        > another
                                        > and eventually must be rejected by a society that hopes to avoid a
                                        > massive
                                        > die-off. I get tired of pointing out the papers and computational
                                        > studies I
                                        > have already finished that prove these points. I continue work on
                                        > the Mark
                                        > II Economy to produce an educational tool that might be used or
                                        > improved
                                        > upon to create a wider understanding of the types of political
                                        > changes that
                                        > sustainability requires.
                                        >
                                        > Tom
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                        > Blog: http://dematerialis
                                        > m.blogspot.com/
                                        > Website: http://dematerialis m.net/
                                        > Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post:
                                        > twayburn@wt. net
                                        > If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to
                                        > twayburn@yahoo.
                                        > com .
                                        >
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                                        >
                                        > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                        > Blog: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/>
                                        m.blogspot.com/
                                        > Website: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/
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                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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                                        >
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                                      • Tom Wayburn
                                        Well, let s see what happens. Tom Steve Bosserman wrote: Hi Tom, A great suggestion from Jon was given a great follow-up by you.
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Aug 30, 2006
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                                          Well, let's see what happens.

                                          Tom

                                          Steve Bosserman <stevebosserman@...> wrote:
                                          Hi Tom,

                                          A great suggestion from Jon was given a great follow-up by you. This brings
                                          up a possibility for you to consider as you move ahead in your
                                          communications with the Pachamama Alliance (and other groups of similar vein
                                          you may tap). Would you be willing to post the results of your exchanges on
                                          this site? While several in Cyfranogi may have knowledge about and history
                                          with the Alliance, I am not one of them. However, I would like to learn
                                          about this organization through your experiences. Beyond the learning
                                          people like me receive there is the likelihood that those who are more
                                          knowledgeable about the Alliance can help you establish a viable connection
                                          should you need it. In addition, the door is opened for the Alliance to
                                          discover how it can present itself in a more accessible and responsive
                                          manner to a wider public should they need it.

                                          The point is the steps you have embarked upon below are imbued with a deeper
                                          significance than first imagined for you, for us at Cyfranogi, for groups
                                          like the Pachamama Alliance, and for those who travel this way in the
                                          future. This process of shared learning, meaning-making, network-building,
                                          community-supporting is one expression of “community currency” and open
                                          economy which Cyfranogi is all about.

                                          Thanks in advance for your consideration. I’m looking forward to hearing
                                          about your experiences and noting where I can be of help.

                                          Best regards,

                                          Steve B.

                                          _____

                                          From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                          Of Tom Wayburn
                                          Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 4:17 AM
                                          To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Fighting Scarcity with Cooperation

                                          Steve and Jon,

                                          Just this minute I sent the following letter to the Pachamama Alliance:

                                          Dear Friends,

                                          I am an independent scholar devoting his declining years to the best
                                          research he has ever done. I have no income and no sponsorship of any kind.
                                          Therefore, my results cannot be influenced by ideology. (My own ideas are
                                          enough for me.) What I need is help in reaching other people with the
                                          powerful messages my computational studies and my investigation into
                                          morality contain. Please take a look at my website http://dematerialis
                                          <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/ and my latest paper http://dematerialis
                                          <http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html> m.net/Mark-II-Economy.html
                                          (in which I illustrate the importance of abandoning market conomics*) to
                                          determine if I can be of any use to you. I am unable to assist you
                                          financially as no one other than my wife is assisting me.

                                          *I hope that you agree with me that market economies are intrinsically
                                          unsustainable and must be abandoned in favor of planned economies or, better
                                          yet, give-away economies. My dilemma is how to convince people that this is
                                          true in the face of 116 years of anti-communist propaganda even though it is
                                          proved mathematically. To begin with, I can't get them to read
                                          http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html.>
                                          m.net/Mark-II-Economy.html. If my spreadsheet simulator could be made into a
                                          fascinating computer game, perhaps young people would "accidentally"
                                          convince themselves that it is true.

                                          Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                          http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/
                                          http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/> m.blogspot.com/

                                          Tom Wayburn <twayburn@yahoo. <mailto:twayburn%40yahoo.com> com> wrote:
                                          Thanks, Jon Love, I shall be looking into the Pachamama Alliance this very
                                          hour. I wondered if anyone else were listening to our conversation. Now I
                                          know.

                                          Best regards,
                                          Tom

                                          Jon Love <jonlove@mac. <mailto:jonlove%40mac.com> com> wrote:
                                          Tom and Steve,

                                          As a reader of the posts on this list I have learned a lot and been
                                          provoked to critical thinking on many occasions. In the interest of
                                          brevity at the moment, I would like to call your attention to a
                                          program developed by an organization called "the Pachamama Alliance,"
                                          which is a one-day symposium designed to "wake people up" to the
                                          "dream" of the modern world, and the web of unexamined assumptions
                                          that drive our behavior in ways that produce an unjust, unfulfilling
                                          and unsustainable human presence on earth. Check it out here: http://
                                          www.pachamama.org/atd/

                                          This piece of work does actually reach people, and moves them from
                                          denial to action.

                                          On another note, there is one aspect of development that actually has
                                          been shown to reduce population growth rather than increase it.
                                          Notice that the "native replacement rate" (the rate of increase that
                                          a country would experience without immigration or emigration) is
                                          negative in many industrialized countries. It seems that as infant
                                          mortality falls and women's level of eduction rises there is a huge
                                          drop in birth rates - the statistical correlation is convincing - It
                                          seems women who have alternatives to motherhood to make life
                                          meaningful, and who have confidence that their first and second
                                          children are more likely to live than to die, make different choices
                                          and family size falls rapidly.

                                          I would say that it is the green revolution in concert with lack of
                                          health care and women's education that has led to the egregious
                                          expansion of populations in countries that cannot now provide for
                                          them adequately.

                                          Thanks,

                                          Jon Love

                                          On Aug 27, 2006, at 10:54 PM, Tom Wayburn wrote:

                                          > Steve,
                                          >
                                          > I think you are a person who might have some ideas about
                                          > ultimately getting people to change and as a prelude to that
                                          > getting them to discover certain facts of life that we both feel
                                          > they should understand even though their ability to earn a living
                                          > may depend upon them not understanding them. In particular, we
                                          > need people to understand that economic growth is undesirable
                                          > except in the least developed countries that need to grow as we
                                          > shrink until we meet somewhere in between.
                                          >
                                          > I have been singularly unsuccessful in raising the level of
                                          > understanding among the people who contribute to this forum even.
                                          > Someone needs to teach me how to reach people.
                                          >
                                          > Tom
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Steve Bosserman wrote:
                                          > Hi Tom,
                                          >
                                          > Thanks for your quick response. If I am following your logic, it
                                          > appears
                                          > that humanity has a treacherous path ahead regardless of how
                                          > plentiful and
                                          > benign the energy. This difficulty is due to the “immorality” of
                                          > various
                                          > systems we humans have put in place to “manage” behavior. Scarcity
                                          > spawns
                                          > fear and greed. This creates an enormous opportunity for those who are
                                          > unabashed at using fear to their advantage. Indeed, they are loath to
                                          > change the rules.
                                          >
                                          > Some suggest that cooperation engenders a sense of abundance, but
                                          > as you
                                          > mention there may very well not be enough to go around whether
                                          > motivation is
                                          > cooperative or competitive. Nonetheless, the more scarcity the more
                                          > people
                                          > are driven by their instincts to perpetuate the species and the
                                          > more the
                                          > human population grows. In addition, people whose survival is at
                                          > risk leave
                                          > where they are and migrate elsewhere to seek relief. More often
                                          > than not,
                                          > their destination is an urban area that is already over-burdened and
                                          > maladaptive. In many instances their circumstances are made worse—
                                          > and the
                                          > world loses.
                                          >
                                          > This suggests that to reduce the perception that unchecked scarcity
                                          > reigns
                                          > supreme lessens the pressure to propagate, which slows population
                                          > growth and
                                          > migration—and the world benefits. Inculcating people in the ways of
                                          > cooperation is a very powerful approach in creating that
                                          > impression. How to
                                          > do that, though, is quite a challenge.
                                          >
                                          > Each of us engages in the battle against the threat of scarcity on
                                          > multiple
                                          > fronts: personally, locally, and globally. The arena of meaningful
                                          > action
                                          > is quite extensive. It is clear you have considerable experience
                                          > fighting
                                          > the good fight for a more cooperative existence beyond exhorting
                                          > others to
                                          > do so. What works for you? How do you carry your thinking into
                                          > purposeful
                                          > action in your life at home, in the Houston area (number two in
                                          > urban sprawl
                                          > in the USA), and in the larger domains of national and international
                                          > politics? What vulnerabilities do you see in the current system
                                          > that can be
                                          > readily exploited?
                                          >
                                          > Thanks in advance for your response. There are several ways I have
                                          > in mind
                                          > to apply your work in turning the dial of cooperation, but I would
                                          > rather
                                          > hear what you are doing so that what I might propose is aligned
                                          > rather than
                                          > oblique. Looking forward to it!
                                          >
                                          > Best regards,
                                          >
                                          > Steve B.
                                          >
                                          > _____
                                          >
                                          > From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                          [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com]
                                          > On Behalf
                                          > Of Tom Wayburn
                                          > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 5:27 PM
                                          > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                          > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Fossil Fuel, Consumption, and Commerce
                                          >
                                          > Thanks, Steve, for looking at my work. Clearly, a model of
                                          > acquisitiveness,
                                          > consumption, and economic growth cannot be sustained in a finite
                                          > world. Many
                                          > writers have discussed the immorality of a system that is based
                                          > upon greed
                                          > and fear. It is not just that many will do anything for profit;
                                          > but, for
                                          > most others, if they do not do whatever they can, they will perish.
                                          > Therefore, if capitalism had been based upon an unlimited
                                          > sustainable energy
                                          > source - or virtually unlimited if, for example, we could harvest
                                          > all of the
                                          > 185,000 terrawatts radiating the earth from the sun - we would
                                          > still be in
                                          > enormous difficulties of a moral nature even supposing we could
                                          > escape the
                                          > earth whose large distances from other habitable planets
                                          > constitutes a sort
                                          > of quarantine of man's corrupted nature from contact with other
                                          > sentient
                                          > beings who might suffer immeasurably from contact with human beings.
                                          >
                                          > In Chapter 2 of my book I made an outline of some of the likely
                                          > effects of a
                                          > plentiful energy scenario:
                                          >
                                          > from http://dematerialis
                                          >
                                          > m.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170713
                                          >
                                          > Drawbacks and Advantages of a Large Energy Budget
                                          > It is not necessary to prove that every technology capable of
                                          > supplying
                                          > plentiful high-grade energy must fail. It is clear that plentiful
                                          > energy
                                          > would not be a blessing in a materialistic world. When I was first
                                          > told of
                                          > cold fusion, I hoped it would turn out to be a failure. The first
                                          > thing that
                                          > popped into my head was traffic on the interstates multiplied a
                                          > hundred-fold
                                          > all over the globe. Do we really want to turn the world into Loop 610?
                                          >
                                          > On the other hand, in a cooperative world, (I have claimed) energy
                                          > would be
                                          > used wisely as there would be no incentive to use it selfishly and
                                          > stupidly.
                                          > (You see; I, too, make use of incentive arguments that presume some
                                          > knowledge of human nature. I claim that the knowledge I profess has
                                          > a better
                                          > basis in fact than theories that deny intrinsic motivation. After
                                          > all, I am
                                          > claiming only what everyone believes. We have never given intrinsic
                                          > motivation a chance, but we can see for ourselves – even feel for
                                          > ourselves
                                          > – the power of intrinsic motivation when it is allowed to function.)
                                          >
                                          > For a change, I shall present only an outline of the drawbacks and
                                          > advantages of a plentiful (high-grade) energy budget – even though
                                          > I believe
                                          > that, unless the population be reduced considerably, energy shall
                                          > continue
                                          > to be scarce. Thus, I haven’t much hope for a large population;
                                          > however, a
                                          > small population might encounter serious obstacles too. Perhaps a
                                          > small
                                          > population would have difficulty harvesting even a large supply of
                                          > biomass
                                          > and scarcity would persist. As far as those large readily available
                                          > fossil-fuel reserves are concerned, soon they shall be gone forever.
                                          >
                                          > Outline of Likely Effects of a Plentiful Energy Budget under
                                          > Contrasting
                                          > Social Conditions
                                          >
                                          > I. Wrongful Use ( competition for wealth and power)
                                          > A. Health risk and discomfort
                                          > 1. chemical and radiative pollution
                                          > 2. space pollution (junk in outer space)
                                          > 3. noise
                                          > 4. light pollution (we can’t see the stars, which is all we wanted
                                          > of them)
                                          > 5. information pollution (lies, propaganda, drivel)
                                          > 6. excessive motion leading to stress
                                          > 7. crowding
                                          > 8. disappearance of wilderness
                                          > 9. extinctions of species
                                          > 10. population growth
                                          > 11. ugliness
                                          > 12. urbanization
                                          > a. garbage
                                          > b. sewage
                                          > 13. crime
                                          > 14. insanity
                                          > 15. etc.
                                          > B. Useless consumer products and deceptive marketing
                                          > C. More junkpiles and less space
                                          > D. Wasted effort
                                          > E. Unpleasant jobs
                                          > F. CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH AND POWER
                                          > G. TOTALITARIANISM
                                          > H. WAR
                                          > II. Proper Uses (cooperation)
                                          > A. Population control
                                          > B. Pollution control
                                          > 1. Purification of all waste streams
                                          > 2. Separation and recycle of all junk
                                          > C. Decentralization (deurbanization)
                                          > D. Mass communication
                                          > E. Equality of wealth, power, and fame
                                          > F. Abundant living without excessive work, perhaps none for people
                                          > who hate
                                          > work. Of course, many people will work on personal projects
                                          > interesting to
                                          > themselves only, one of which might save the world in some easily
                                          > imagined
                                          > scenario.
                                          > G. Etc.
                                          >
                                          > [Note in proof (1-26-97). Even supposing that we have abandoned
                                          > materialism,
                                          > an excessively lavish emergy supply will only make it harder to
                                          > abide by the
                                          > spirit and the letter of the social contract derived from our
                                          > minimal proper
                                          > religion. Overconsumption and population growth might be hard to
                                          > resist.
                                          > Nevertheless, in keeping with the view of humanity that, in Chapter
                                          > 4 of
                                          > this essay, is assumed to be a good enough approximation to the
                                          > correct
                                          > view, I shall continue to trust humanity to do the right thing.
                                          > Undoubtedly,
                                          > this point is moot as emergy will always be scarce. In case it
                                          > turns out
                                          > that I am wrong, I hope future generations forgive my lack of
                                          > prescience, as
                                          > I forgive past and present generations who can’t read the future or
                                          > who
                                          > can’t see the world as it actually is. Remember, many of you have
                                          > acted (or
                                          > continue to act) unwisely; however, I will have acted prudently. It is
                                          > better to have planned for a calamity that doesn’t occur than not
                                          > to have
                                          > prepared
                                          > for one that does!]
                                          >
                                          > [end of selection from Chapter 2]
                                          >
                                          > I hope this helps to clarify my position.
                                          >
                                          > Best regards,
                                          > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                          >
                                          > Steve Bosserman
                                          > yahoo.com> wrote:
                                          > Hi Tom,
                                          >
                                          > In reading your treatise about "dematerialism," your deep analysis
                                          > shows a
                                          > profound level of commitment to giving the issues surrounding our
                                          > choices
                                          > about what, how much, and in what way we consume a very thorough
                                          > investigation. However, this prompts a question. It is my
                                          > impression that
                                          > you are associating the use of fossil fuel (heading toward inevitable
                                          > depletion and polluting the environment more and more along the
                                          > way), with
                                          > consumption (unchecked materialism), and commerce (in this case, the
                                          > confluence of capitalism, finance, and industry spurring unnecessary
                                          > competition, wastefulness of natural and human resources, and
                                          > greediness to
                                          > accumulate excessive wealth at the expense of countless others). If my
                                          > understanding is correct, under what conditions would we be living
                                          > now if,
                                          > through some miracle of development 300 years ago, our energy needs
                                          > had been
                                          > and continue to be met by solar power (as an example) in lieu of
                                          > fossil
                                          > fuel? To ask the question another way, is it your opinion that the
                                          > phenomena of consumption and commerce as experienced today are the
                                          > inevitable outcomes of flawed systems that doom us to destruction
                                          > irrespective of the energy source used to drive technological
                                          > advancement OR
                                          > did the use of fossil fuel distort the functionality of plausible
                                          > systems to
                                          > behave in undesirable ways? This may be covered in your paper, but
                                          > if so, I
                                          > missed it. Thanks in advance for your consideration.
                                          >
                                          > Best regards,
                                          >
                                          > Steve B.
                                          >
                                          > _____
                                          >
                                          > From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                                          > [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou
                                          > ps.com] On
                                          > Behalf
                                          > Of Tom Wayburn
                                          > Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 10:39 PM
                                          > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                                          > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Steve Bosserman, good to hear from you!
                                          >
                                          > Andrius,
                                          >
                                          > I have gone to a lot of trouble to show arithmetically that business,
                                          > markets, buying and selling, the profit motive are inconsistent with
                                          > sustainability. I understand that not everyone on this list can
                                          > afford to
                                          > forego earning money; however, all of us should be aware that most
                                          > things we
                                          > do to earn money set back the cause of sustainability in one way or
                                          > another
                                          > and eventually must be rejected by a society that hopes to avoid a
                                          > massive
                                          > die-off. I get tired of pointing out the papers and computational
                                          > studies I
                                          > have already finished that prove these points. I continue work on
                                          > the Mark
                                          > II Economy to produce an educational tool that might be used or
                                          > improved
                                          > upon to create a wider understanding of the types of political
                                          > changes that
                                          > sustainability requires.
                                          >
                                          > Tom
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                          > Blog: http://dematerialis
                                          > m.blogspot.com/
                                          > Website: http://dematerialis m.net/
                                          > Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post:
                                          > twayburn@wt. net
                                          > If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to
                                          > twayburn@yahoo.
                                          > com .
                                          >
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                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                          > Blog: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/>
                                          m.blogspot.com/
                                          > Website: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/
                                          > Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this
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                                          > If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to
                                          > twayburn@yahoo. <mailto:twayburn%40yahoo.com> com .
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                        • Tom Wayburn
                                          Well, let s see what happens. Tom Steve Bosserman wrote: Hi Tom, A great suggestion from Jon was given a great follow-up by you.
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Aug 30, 2006
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                                            Well, let's see what happens.

                                            Tom

                                            Steve Bosserman <stevebosserman@...> wrote:
                                            Hi Tom,

                                            A great suggestion from Jon was given a great follow-up by you. This brings
                                            up a possibility for you to consider as you move ahead in your
                                            communications with the Pachamama Alliance (and other groups of similar vein
                                            you may tap). Would you be willing to post the results of your exchanges on
                                            this site? While several in Cyfranogi may have knowledge about and history
                                            with the Alliance, I am not one of them. However, I would like to learn
                                            about this organization through your experiences. Beyond the learning
                                            people like me receive there is the likelihood that those who are more
                                            knowledgeable about the Alliance can help you establish a viable connection
                                            should you need it. In addition, the door is opened for the Alliance to
                                            discover how it can present itself in a more accessible and responsive
                                            manner to a wider public should they need it.

                                            The point is the steps you have embarked upon below are imbued with a deeper
                                            significance than first imagined for you, for us at Cyfranogi, for groups
                                            like the Pachamama Alliance, and for those who travel this way in the
                                            future. This process of shared learning, meaning-making, network-building,
                                            community-supporting is one expression of “community currency” and open
                                            economy which Cyfranogi is all about.

                                            Thanks in advance for your consideration. I’m looking forward to hearing
                                            about your experiences and noting where I can be of help.

                                            Best regards,

                                            Steve B.

                                            _____

                                            From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                            Of Tom Wayburn
                                            Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 4:17 AM
                                            To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Fighting Scarcity with Cooperation

                                            Steve and Jon,

                                            Just this minute I sent the following letter to the Pachamama Alliance:

                                            Dear Friends,

                                            I am an independent scholar devoting his declining years to the best
                                            research he has ever done. I have no income and no sponsorship of any kind.
                                            Therefore, my results cannot be influenced by ideology. (My own ideas are
                                            enough for me.) What I need is help in reaching other people with the
                                            powerful messages my computational studies and my investigation into
                                            morality contain. Please take a look at my website http://dematerialis
                                            <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/ and my latest paper http://dematerialis
                                            <http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html> m.net/Mark-II-Economy.html
                                            (in which I illustrate the importance of abandoning market conomics*) to
                                            determine if I can be of any use to you. I am unable to assist you
                                            financially as no one other than my wife is assisting me.

                                            *I hope that you agree with me that market economies are intrinsically
                                            unsustainable and must be abandoned in favor of planned economies or, better
                                            yet, give-away economies. My dilemma is how to convince people that this is
                                            true in the face of 116 years of anti-communist propaganda even though it is
                                            proved mathematically. To begin with, I can't get them to read
                                            http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/Mark-II-Economy.html.>
                                            m.net/Mark-II-Economy.html. If my spreadsheet simulator could be made into a
                                            fascinating computer game, perhaps young people would "accidentally"
                                            convince themselves that it is true.

                                            Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                            http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/
                                            http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/> m.blogspot.com/

                                            Tom Wayburn <twayburn@yahoo. <mailto:twayburn%40yahoo.com> com> wrote:
                                            Thanks, Jon Love, I shall be looking into the Pachamama Alliance this very
                                            hour. I wondered if anyone else were listening to our conversation. Now I
                                            know.

                                            Best regards,
                                            Tom

                                            Jon Love <jonlove@mac. <mailto:jonlove%40mac.com> com> wrote:
                                            Tom and Steve,

                                            As a reader of the posts on this list I have learned a lot and been
                                            provoked to critical thinking on many occasions. In the interest of
                                            brevity at the moment, I would like to call your attention to a
                                            program developed by an organization called "the Pachamama Alliance,"
                                            which is a one-day symposium designed to "wake people up" to the
                                            "dream" of the modern world, and the web of unexamined assumptions
                                            that drive our behavior in ways that produce an unjust, unfulfilling
                                            and unsustainable human presence on earth. Check it out here: http://
                                            www.pachamama.org/atd/

                                            This piece of work does actually reach people, and moves them from
                                            denial to action.

                                            On another note, there is one aspect of development that actually has
                                            been shown to reduce population growth rather than increase it.
                                            Notice that the "native replacement rate" (the rate of increase that
                                            a country would experience without immigration or emigration) is
                                            negative in many industrialized countries. It seems that as infant
                                            mortality falls and women's level of eduction rises there is a huge
                                            drop in birth rates - the statistical correlation is convincing - It
                                            seems women who have alternatives to motherhood to make life
                                            meaningful, and who have confidence that their first and second
                                            children are more likely to live than to die, make different choices
                                            and family size falls rapidly.

                                            I would say that it is the green revolution in concert with lack of
                                            health care and women's education that has led to the egregious
                                            expansion of populations in countries that cannot now provide for
                                            them adequately.

                                            Thanks,

                                            Jon Love

                                            On Aug 27, 2006, at 10:54 PM, Tom Wayburn wrote:

                                            > Steve,
                                            >
                                            > I think you are a person who might have some ideas about
                                            > ultimately getting people to change and as a prelude to that
                                            > getting them to discover certain facts of life that we both feel
                                            > they should understand even though their ability to earn a living
                                            > may depend upon them not understanding them. In particular, we
                                            > need people to understand that economic growth is undesirable
                                            > except in the least developed countries that need to grow as we
                                            > shrink until we meet somewhere in between.
                                            >
                                            > I have been singularly unsuccessful in raising the level of
                                            > understanding among the people who contribute to this forum even.
                                            > Someone needs to teach me how to reach people.
                                            >
                                            > Tom
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Steve Bosserman wrote:
                                            > Hi Tom,
                                            >
                                            > Thanks for your quick response. If I am following your logic, it
                                            > appears
                                            > that humanity has a treacherous path ahead regardless of how
                                            > plentiful and
                                            > benign the energy. This difficulty is due to the “immorality” of
                                            > various
                                            > systems we humans have put in place to “manage” behavior. Scarcity
                                            > spawns
                                            > fear and greed. This creates an enormous opportunity for those who are
                                            > unabashed at using fear to their advantage. Indeed, they are loath to
                                            > change the rules.
                                            >
                                            > Some suggest that cooperation engenders a sense of abundance, but
                                            > as you
                                            > mention there may very well not be enough to go around whether
                                            > motivation is
                                            > cooperative or competitive. Nonetheless, the more scarcity the more
                                            > people
                                            > are driven by their instincts to perpetuate the species and the
                                            > more the
                                            > human population grows. In addition, people whose survival is at
                                            > risk leave
                                            > where they are and migrate elsewhere to seek relief. More often
                                            > than not,
                                            > their destination is an urban area that is already over-burdened and
                                            > maladaptive. In many instances their circumstances are made worse—
                                            > and the
                                            > world loses.
                                            >
                                            > This suggests that to reduce the perception that unchecked scarcity
                                            > reigns
                                            > supreme lessens the pressure to propagate, which slows population
                                            > growth and
                                            > migration—and the world benefits. Inculcating people in the ways of
                                            > cooperation is a very powerful approach in creating that
                                            > impression. How to
                                            > do that, though, is quite a challenge.
                                            >
                                            > Each of us engages in the battle against the threat of scarcity on
                                            > multiple
                                            > fronts: personally, locally, and globally. The arena of meaningful
                                            > action
                                            > is quite extensive. It is clear you have considerable experience
                                            > fighting
                                            > the good fight for a more cooperative existence beyond exhorting
                                            > others to
                                            > do so. What works for you? How do you carry your thinking into
                                            > purposeful
                                            > action in your life at home, in the Houston area (number two in
                                            > urban sprawl
                                            > in the USA), and in the larger domains of national and international
                                            > politics? What vulnerabilities do you see in the current system
                                            > that can be
                                            > readily exploited?
                                            >
                                            > Thanks in advance for your response. There are several ways I have
                                            > in mind
                                            > to apply your work in turning the dial of cooperation, but I would
                                            > rather
                                            > hear what you are doing so that what I might propose is aligned
                                            > rather than
                                            > oblique. Looking forward to it!
                                            >
                                            > Best regards,
                                            >
                                            > Steve B.
                                            >
                                            > _____
                                            >
                                            > From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                            [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com]
                                            > On Behalf
                                            > Of Tom Wayburn
                                            > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 5:27 PM
                                            > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                            > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Fossil Fuel, Consumption, and Commerce
                                            >
                                            > Thanks, Steve, for looking at my work. Clearly, a model of
                                            > acquisitiveness,
                                            > consumption, and economic growth cannot be sustained in a finite
                                            > world. Many
                                            > writers have discussed the immorality of a system that is based
                                            > upon greed
                                            > and fear. It is not just that many will do anything for profit;
                                            > but, for
                                            > most others, if they do not do whatever they can, they will perish.
                                            > Therefore, if capitalism had been based upon an unlimited
                                            > sustainable energy
                                            > source - or virtually unlimited if, for example, we could harvest
                                            > all of the
                                            > 185,000 terrawatts radiating the earth from the sun - we would
                                            > still be in
                                            > enormous difficulties of a moral nature even supposing we could
                                            > escape the
                                            > earth whose large distances from other habitable planets
                                            > constitutes a sort
                                            > of quarantine of man's corrupted nature from contact with other
                                            > sentient
                                            > beings who might suffer immeasurably from contact with human beings.
                                            >
                                            > In Chapter 2 of my book I made an outline of some of the likely
                                            > effects of a
                                            > plentiful energy scenario:
                                            >
                                            > from http://dematerialis
                                            >
                                            > m.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170713
                                            >
                                            > Drawbacks and Advantages of a Large Energy Budget
                                            > It is not necessary to prove that every technology capable of
                                            > supplying
                                            > plentiful high-grade energy must fail. It is clear that plentiful
                                            > energy
                                            > would not be a blessing in a materialistic world. When I was first
                                            > told of
                                            > cold fusion, I hoped it would turn out to be a failure. The first
                                            > thing that
                                            > popped into my head was traffic on the interstates multiplied a
                                            > hundred-fold
                                            > all over the globe. Do we really want to turn the world into Loop 610?
                                            >
                                            > On the other hand, in a cooperative world, (I have claimed) energy
                                            > would be
                                            > used wisely as there would be no incentive to use it selfishly and
                                            > stupidly.
                                            > (You see; I, too, make use of incentive arguments that presume some
                                            > knowledge of human nature. I claim that the knowledge I profess has
                                            > a better
                                            > basis in fact than theories that deny intrinsic motivation. After
                                            > all, I am
                                            > claiming only what everyone believes. We have never given intrinsic
                                            > motivation a chance, but we can see for ourselves – even feel for
                                            > ourselves
                                            > – the power of intrinsic motivation when it is allowed to function.)
                                            >
                                            > For a change, I shall present only an outline of the drawbacks and
                                            > advantages of a plentiful (high-grade) energy budget – even though
                                            > I believe
                                            > that, unless the population be reduced considerably, energy shall
                                            > continue
                                            > to be scarce. Thus, I haven’t much hope for a large population;
                                            > however, a
                                            > small population might encounter serious obstacles too. Perhaps a
                                            > small
                                            > population would have difficulty harvesting even a large supply of
                                            > biomass
                                            > and scarcity would persist. As far as those large readily available
                                            > fossil-fuel reserves are concerned, soon they shall be gone forever.
                                            >
                                            > Outline of Likely Effects of a Plentiful Energy Budget under
                                            > Contrasting
                                            > Social Conditions
                                            >
                                            > I. Wrongful Use ( competition for wealth and power)
                                            > A. Health risk and discomfort
                                            > 1. chemical and radiative pollution
                                            > 2. space pollution (junk in outer space)
                                            > 3. noise
                                            > 4. light pollution (we can’t see the stars, which is all we wanted
                                            > of them)
                                            > 5. information pollution (lies, propaganda, drivel)
                                            > 6. excessive motion leading to stress
                                            > 7. crowding
                                            > 8. disappearance of wilderness
                                            > 9. extinctions of species
                                            > 10. population growth
                                            > 11. ugliness
                                            > 12. urbanization
                                            > a. garbage
                                            > b. sewage
                                            > 13. crime
                                            > 14. insanity
                                            > 15. etc.
                                            > B. Useless consumer products and deceptive marketing
                                            > C. More junkpiles and less space
                                            > D. Wasted effort
                                            > E. Unpleasant jobs
                                            > F. CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH AND POWER
                                            > G. TOTALITARIANISM
                                            > H. WAR
                                            > II. Proper Uses (cooperation)
                                            > A. Population control
                                            > B. Pollution control
                                            > 1. Purification of all waste streams
                                            > 2. Separation and recycle of all junk
                                            > C. Decentralization (deurbanization)
                                            > D. Mass communication
                                            > E. Equality of wealth, power, and fame
                                            > F. Abundant living without excessive work, perhaps none for people
                                            > who hate
                                            > work. Of course, many people will work on personal projects
                                            > interesting to
                                            > themselves only, one of which might save the world in some easily
                                            > imagined
                                            > scenario.
                                            > G. Etc.
                                            >
                                            > [Note in proof (1-26-97). Even supposing that we have abandoned
                                            > materialism,
                                            > an excessively lavish emergy supply will only make it harder to
                                            > abide by the
                                            > spirit and the letter of the social contract derived from our
                                            > minimal proper
                                            > religion. Overconsumption and population growth might be hard to
                                            > resist.
                                            > Nevertheless, in keeping with the view of humanity that, in Chapter
                                            > 4 of
                                            > this essay, is assumed to be a good enough approximation to the
                                            > correct
                                            > view, I shall continue to trust humanity to do the right thing.
                                            > Undoubtedly,
                                            > this point is moot as emergy will always be scarce. In case it
                                            > turns out
                                            > that I am wrong, I hope future generations forgive my lack of
                                            > prescience, as
                                            > I forgive past and present generations who can’t read the future or
                                            > who
                                            > can’t see the world as it actually is. Remember, many of you have
                                            > acted (or
                                            > continue to act) unwisely; however, I will have acted prudently. It is
                                            > better to have planned for a calamity that doesn’t occur than not
                                            > to have
                                            > prepared
                                            > for one that does!]
                                            >
                                            > [end of selection from Chapter 2]
                                            >
                                            > I hope this helps to clarify my position.
                                            >
                                            > Best regards,
                                            > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                            >
                                            > Steve Bosserman
                                            > yahoo.com> wrote:
                                            > Hi Tom,
                                            >
                                            > In reading your treatise about "dematerialism," your deep analysis
                                            > shows a
                                            > profound level of commitment to giving the issues surrounding our
                                            > choices
                                            > about what, how much, and in what way we consume a very thorough
                                            > investigation. However, this prompts a question. It is my
                                            > impression that
                                            > you are associating the use of fossil fuel (heading toward inevitable
                                            > depletion and polluting the environment more and more along the
                                            > way), with
                                            > consumption (unchecked materialism), and commerce (in this case, the
                                            > confluence of capitalism, finance, and industry spurring unnecessary
                                            > competition, wastefulness of natural and human resources, and
                                            > greediness to
                                            > accumulate excessive wealth at the expense of countless others). If my
                                            > understanding is correct, under what conditions would we be living
                                            > now if,
                                            > through some miracle of development 300 years ago, our energy needs
                                            > had been
                                            > and continue to be met by solar power (as an example) in lieu of
                                            > fossil
                                            > fuel? To ask the question another way, is it your opinion that the
                                            > phenomena of consumption and commerce as experienced today are the
                                            > inevitable outcomes of flawed systems that doom us to destruction
                                            > irrespective of the energy source used to drive technological
                                            > advancement OR
                                            > did the use of fossil fuel distort the functionality of plausible
                                            > systems to
                                            > behave in undesirable ways? This may be covered in your paper, but
                                            > if so, I
                                            > missed it. Thanks in advance for your consideration.
                                            >
                                            > Best regards,
                                            >
                                            > Steve B.
                                            >
                                            > _____
                                            >
                                            > From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                                            > [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou
                                            > ps.com] On
                                            > Behalf
                                            > Of Tom Wayburn
                                            > Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 10:39 PM
                                            > To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou ps.com
                                            > Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Steve Bosserman, good to hear from you!
                                            >
                                            > Andrius,
                                            >
                                            > I have gone to a lot of trouble to show arithmetically that business,
                                            > markets, buying and selling, the profit motive are inconsistent with
                                            > sustainability. I understand that not everyone on this list can
                                            > afford to
                                            > forego earning money; however, all of us should be aware that most
                                            > things we
                                            > do to earn money set back the cause of sustainability in one way or
                                            > another
                                            > and eventually must be rejected by a society that hopes to avoid a
                                            > massive
                                            > die-off. I get tired of pointing out the papers and computational
                                            > studies I
                                            > have already finished that prove these points. I continue work on
                                            > the Mark
                                            > II Economy to produce an educational tool that might be used or
                                            > improved
                                            > upon to create a wider understanding of the types of political
                                            > changes that
                                            > sustainability requires.
                                            >
                                            > Tom
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                            > Blog: http://dematerialis
                                            > m.blogspot.com/
                                            > Website: http://dematerialis m.net/
                                            > Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post:
                                            > twayburn@wt. net
                                            > If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to
                                            > twayburn@yahoo.
                                            > com .
                                            >
                                            > ---------------------------------
                                            > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.
                                            > Great rates
                                            > starting at 1¢/min.
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                            > Blog: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/>
                                            m.blogspot.com/
                                            > Website: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/
                                            > Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this
                                            > post: twayburn@wt. <mailto:twayburn%40wt.net> net
                                            > If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to
                                            > twayburn@yahoo. <mailto:twayburn%40yahoo.com> com .
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ---------------------------------
                                            > Do you Yahoo!?
                                            > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
                                            >
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                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Each letter sent to cyfranogi@yahoogrou
                                            <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                            > enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN whenever it does not state otherwise.
                                            > http://www.ethicalp <http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org> ublicdomain.org
                                            > Please be kind to our authors!
                                            >
                                            > Have a look at our wiki where we are creating an online learning
                                            > environment for community currency: http://www.findbett
                                            <http://www.findbetterways.info/> erways.info/
                                            > wiki.cgi?FindBetterWays/CommunityCurrency
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > To Post a message, send it to: cyfranogi@yahooGrou
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                                            >
                                            >

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                            Each letter sent to cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            ps.com
                                            enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN whenever it does not state otherwise.
                                            http://www.ethicalp <http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org> ublicdomain.org
                                            Please be kind to our authors!

                                            Have a look at our wiki where we are creating an online learning environment
                                            for community currency: http://www.findbett
                                            <http://www.findbetterways.info/wiki.cgi?FindBetterWays/CommunityCurrency>
                                            erways.info/wiki.cgi?FindBetterWays/CommunityCurrency

                                            To Post a message, send it to: cyfranogi@yahooGrou
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                                            Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                            Blog: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/>
                                            m.blogspot.com/
                                            Website: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/
                                            Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post:
                                            twayburn@wt. <mailto:twayburn%40wt.net> net
                                            If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to twayburn@yahoo.
                                            <mailto:twayburn%40yahoo.com> com .

                                            ---------------------------------
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                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                            Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                            Blog: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/>
                                            m.blogspot.com/
                                            Website: http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/
                                            Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post:
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                                            If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to twayburn@yahoo.
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                                            Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                            Blog: http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/
                                            Website: http://dematerialism.net/
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                                            If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to twayburn@... .





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                                          • Steve Bosserman
                                            Hi, The exchanges among Tom, Terry, Jon, John, and Jon over the past three days are truly insightful, reassuring, and inspiring. Our current reality is often
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Aug 30, 2006
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                                              Hi,



                                              The exchanges among Tom, Terry, Jon, John, and Jon over the past three days
                                              are truly insightful, reassuring, and inspiring. Our current reality is
                                              often not an easy place to have influence and make a difference; and maybe
                                              that's what we are here to learn how to do better. Terry is spot-on-one
                                              can't change other people and it is an exercise in futility trying.
                                              However, regardless of where someone is, where they have been, where they
                                              are going, or how they interpret the universe and their place in it, they
                                              have energy: physical, intellectual, social, spiritual to name a few.



                                              My joy comes from bringing these sources of energy-people-together and
                                              seeing what happens. Almost instinctively, individuals and organizations
                                              stick doggedly to the power structure that pays them and permit that
                                              structure to dictate who they talk to, about what, when, and where.
                                              Disrupting that stodgy conversational status quo frees up and redirects
                                              energy; people get creative and innovative. They give! As Jon C stated,



                                              "'The Medium is the Message', so "Be the change you want to see". Join a
                                              Time Bank! Give energy directly by doing things for people, and allow them
                                              to do things for you. The movement of energy is life. Give life directly,
                                              try leaving out the middle 'Money' bit."



                                              And if they experience the positive results of what happens when the
                                              energies of many converge in greatness, well, there is no stopping it!



                                              Having spent much of my career working with engineers I can say they quite
                                              often have a penchant for facts and formulas. Not being an engineer, I can
                                              certainly empathize with those who have difficulty making sense out of
                                              numbers, spreadsheets, and mathematical expressions. What I have noticed,
                                              though, are three things engineers like to have in place to believe they are
                                              doing the right work and doing it effectively: a sensible, fact-based
                                              problem statement, reasonably well-defined processes and tools to derive,
                                              develop, and deploy potential solutions, and a set of relevant metrics that
                                              indicate progress or lack thereof as potential solutions are tested and
                                              applied. Providing these three elements is a powerful way to draw energy
                                              from those VERY capable people who value them. And no doubt there are
                                              others in the world besides engineers who feel better working within this
                                              same context.



                                              Tom, here is where your work is of enormous value. First, being an
                                              engineer, your work speaks to other engineers and those who share similar
                                              mental models: here is the problem; here is the framework around which
                                              different approaches can be developed, tested, and applied; and here is a
                                              way effectiveness can be measured. Second, you have a methodology that
                                              assigns performance metrics to the behaviors of systems different than what
                                              the dominant culture proffers today. As the old quality adage goes, "you
                                              get what you measure." You have a way to measure what is wanted, not what
                                              we have. How priceless! Third, the logic of what you have constructed
                                              offers a bridge between what is currently dominant and what is emergent. In
                                              other words it doesn't propose a set of guidelines and operating criteria so
                                              arcane, ungrounded, and illogical that it forces a separation of
                                              intellectual / spiritual sensibilities from purposeful and tenable action.
                                              People can get engaged and cross over while not anticipating or planning for
                                              it.



                                              Clearly, there is application for your work in the realm of community
                                              currencies and open economy that underpin Cyfranogi. There are some
                                              projects I am doing that could touch several groups within the Mincui Sodas
                                              (MS) realm. Perhaps we could explore this openly in this forum or another
                                              within MS to see what emerges. Would this be of interest to you?



                                              Looking forward to your response!



                                              Best regards,



                                              Steve B.



                                              .



                                              _____

                                              From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                              Of avalonfairshares
                                              Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:10 AM
                                              To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: RE: [cyfranogi] Fighting Scarcity with Cooperation



                                              Hi Steve and Tom and Jon, (and everyone else),

                                              Firstly, I feel in no way qualified to make any comments about these things,
                                              and - having said that - here they are:

                                              I have had a very short look at Tom's documents, and there seems to be a
                                              huge gap between the 'science' and the message.

                                              > I have been singularly unsuccessful in raising the level of
                                              > understanding among the people who contribute to this forum even.
                                              > Someone needs to teach me how to reach people.

                                              Well, it is - unfortunately - hard to read Tom's documents.

                                              I am genuinely interested in sustainable human beings interacting with an
                                              abundant planet, in an abundant solar system. But "I don't have the Latin".

                                              A very similar thing happens when I'm trying to read "No More Throw Away
                                              People" by Edgar Cahn - its a book all about Time Banking and Co-production.
                                              I work in Time Banking and Co-production, I am a big fan of Edgar, but ...
                                              reading his book is like wading through treacle.

                                              I would like things stated simply. When I'm talking with the people who
                                              take part in the Avalon Fair Shares Time Bank, I say: "money is a way of
                                              showing the movement of energy between people." They say "yes." I think it
                                              is quite simple really.

                                              The sun is shining. Energy comes from the sun, through plants, to us. We
                                              exchange this energy when we do things for ourselves and others. Money is
                                              just a formalised promise from our community that you'll get some energy
                                              back.

                                              All this other stuff - consumerism, capitalism, mass production, scarcity,
                                              etc., etc. - its all a beautiful waste of time. We are the people who give
                                              Money and the Market its power. Change what you invest 'your' energy in.

                                              'The Medium is the Message', so "Be the change you want to see". Join a
                                              Time Bank! Give energy directly by doing things for people, and allow them
                                              to do things for you. The movement of energy is life. Give life directly,
                                              try leaving out the middle 'Money' bit.

                                              The universe is abundant, and what goes around comes around. The Sun is
                                              still shining.

                                              :-)

                                              Jon Cousins
                                              not - particularly - representing the views of Avalon Fair Shares
                                              Glastonbury. UK





                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • John Rogers
                                              ...and Steve Bosserman s input and encouragement to Tom is my cue to work that scratch on my stuck record again: Mechanisms of Currency - we need the engineers
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Aug 30, 2006
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                                                ...and Steve Bosserman's input and encouragement to Tom is my cue to work that scratch on my stuck record again:

                                                Mechanisms of Currency - we need the engineers to do their stuff and work out the best structures and processes for organising and maintaining sustainable CCs

                                                Psychology of Currency - we need the psychologists, communicators and teachers to work with the 'money mind' we all bring to CC and work it through into effective training and communication strategies for CCs

                                                Politics of Currency - we need the wheelers and dealers and movers and shakers to work out the politics of establishing successful CCs with local communities, professional agencies, local, regional and national governments.

                                                There is plenty to do !!!




                                                John Rogers
                                                Cydlynydd Prosiect
                                                Project Coordinator

                                                Sefydliad Arian Cymunedol Cymru
                                                Wales Institute for Community Currencies
                                                Ty Aneurin Bevan Aneurin Bevan House
                                                40 Stryd y Castell 40 Castle St.
                                                Tredegar Tredegar
                                                Blaenau Gwent Blaenau Gwent
                                                NP22 3DQ NP22 3DQ

                                                Ffon/Tel:
                                                01495 712925
                                                0781 5155127

                                                E-bost/E-mail: john.rogers@...

                                                Y Prosiect Partneriaid gan Prifsygol Cymru Casnewydd, Plant Y Cymoedd ac Time Banks UK, rhan-ariennir gan yr Cronfa Ddatblygu Ranbarthol Ewropeiaidd
                                                A partnership between University of Wales Newport, Valleys Kids and Time Banks UK part financed with European Regional Development Funds.

                                                ________________________________

                                                From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Steve Bosserman
                                                Sent: Wed 30/08/2006 21:21
                                                To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: [cyfranogi] You Get What You Measure...



                                                Hi,

                                                The exchanges among Tom, Terry, Jon, John, and Jon over the past three days
                                                are truly insightful, reassuring, and inspiring. Our current reality is
                                                often not an easy place to have influence and make a difference; and maybe
                                                that's what we are here to learn how to do better. Terry is spot-on-one
                                                can't change other people and it is an exercise in futility trying.
                                                However, regardless of where someone is, where they have been, where they
                                                are going, or how they interpret the universe and their place in it, they
                                                have energy: physical, intellectual, social, spiritual to name a few.

                                                My joy comes from bringing these sources of energy-people-together and
                                                seeing what happens. Almost instinctively, individuals and organizations
                                                stick doggedly to the power structure that pays them and permit that
                                                structure to dictate who they talk to, about what, when, and where.
                                                Disrupting that stodgy conversational status quo frees up and redirects
                                                energy; people get creative and innovative. They give! As Jon C stated,

                                                "'The Medium is the Message', so "Be the change you want to see". Join a
                                                Time Bank! Give energy directly by doing things for people, and allow them
                                                to do things for you. The movement of energy is life. Give life directly,
                                                try leaving out the middle 'Money' bit."

                                                And if they experience the positive results of what happens when the
                                                energies of many converge in greatness, well, there is no stopping it!

                                                Having spent much of my career working with engineers I can say they quite
                                                often have a penchant for facts and formulas. Not being an engineer, I can
                                                certainly empathize with those who have difficulty making sense out of
                                                numbers, spreadsheets, and mathematical expressions. What I have noticed,
                                                though, are three things engineers like to have in place to believe they are
                                                doing the right work and doing it effectively: a sensible, fact-based
                                                problem statement, reasonably well-defined processes and tools to derive,
                                                develop, and deploy potential solutions, and a set of relevant metrics that
                                                indicate progress or lack thereof as potential solutions are tested and
                                                applied. Providing these three elements is a powerful way to draw energy
                                                from those VERY capable people who value them. And no doubt there are
                                                others in the world besides engineers who feel better working within this
                                                same context.

                                                Tom, here is where your work is of enormous value. First, being an
                                                engineer, your work speaks to other engineers and those who share similar
                                                mental models: here is the problem; here is the framework around which
                                                different approaches can be developed, tested, and applied; and here is a
                                                way effectiveness can be measured. Second, you have a methodology that
                                                assigns performance metrics to the behaviors of systems different than what
                                                the dominant culture proffers today. As the old quality adage goes, "you
                                                get what you measure." You have a way to measure what is wanted, not what
                                                we have. How priceless! Third, the logic of what you have constructed
                                                offers a bridge between what is currently dominant and what is emergent. In
                                                other words it doesn't propose a set of guidelines and operating criteria so
                                                arcane, ungrounded, and illogical that it forces a separation of
                                                intellectual / spiritual sensibilities from purposeful and tenable action.
                                                People can get engaged and cross over while not anticipating or planning for
                                                it.

                                                Clearly, there is application for your work in the realm of community
                                                currencies and open economy that underpin Cyfranogi. There are some
                                                projects I am doing that could touch several groups within the Mincui Sodas
                                                (MS) realm. Perhaps we could explore this openly in this forum or another
                                                within MS to see what emerges. Would this be of interest to you?

                                                Looking forward to your response!

                                                Best regards,

                                                Steve B.

                                                .

                                                _____

                                                From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
                                                Of avalonfairshares
                                                Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:10 AM
                                                To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                Subject: RE: [cyfranogi] Fighting Scarcity with Cooperation

                                                Hi Steve and Tom and Jon, (and everyone else),

                                                Firstly, I feel in no way qualified to make any comments about these things,
                                                and - having said that - here they are:

                                                I have had a very short look at Tom's documents, and there seems to be a
                                                huge gap between the 'science' and the message.

                                                > I have been singularly unsuccessful in raising the level of
                                                > understanding among the people who contribute to this forum even.
                                                > Someone needs to teach me how to reach people.

                                                Well, it is - unfortunately - hard to read Tom's documents.

                                                I am genuinely interested in sustainable human beings interacting with an
                                                abundant planet, in an abundant solar system. But "I don't have the Latin".

                                                A very similar thing happens when I'm trying to read "No More Throw Away
                                                People" by Edgar Cahn - its a book all about Time Banking and Co-production.
                                                I work in Time Banking and Co-production, I am a big fan of Edgar, but ...
                                                reading his book is like wading through treacle.

                                                I would like things stated simply. When I'm talking with the people who
                                                take part in the Avalon Fair Shares Time Bank, I say: "money is a way of
                                                showing the movement of energy between people." They say "yes." I think it
                                                is quite simple really.

                                                The sun is shining. Energy comes from the sun, through plants, to us. We
                                                exchange this energy when we do things for ourselves and others. Money is
                                                just a formalised promise from our community that you'll get some energy
                                                back.

                                                All this other stuff - consumerism, capitalism, mass production, scarcity,
                                                etc., etc. - its all a beautiful waste of time. We are the people who give
                                                Money and the Market its power. Change what you invest 'your' energy in.

                                                'The Medium is the Message', so "Be the change you want to see". Join a
                                                Time Bank! Give energy directly by doing things for people, and allow them
                                                to do things for you. The movement of energy is life. Give life directly,
                                                try leaving out the middle 'Money' bit.

                                                The universe is abundant, and what goes around comes around. The Sun is
                                                still shining.

                                                :-)

                                                Jon Cousins
                                                not - particularly - representing the views of Avalon Fair Shares
                                                Glastonbury. UK

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Tom Wayburn
                                                Steve, Jon, et al., I am answering Steve s post, but my answer is for everyone. Steve wrote: Clearly, there is application for your work in the realm of
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Aug 31, 2006
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                                                  Steve, Jon, et al.,

                                                  I am answering Steve's post, but my answer is for everyone.

                                                  Steve wrote: Clearly, there is application for your work in the realm of community
                                                  currencies and open economy that underpin Cyfranogi. There are some
                                                  projects I am doing that could touch several groups within the Mincui Sodas
                                                  (MS) realm. Perhaps we could explore this openly in this forum or another
                                                  within MS to see what emerges. Would this be of interest to you?

                                                  Yes, I would be interested to help in any way I can.


                                                  I especially appreciate Steve's response to my papers, which are difficult for many people to read. I suppose the papers are really not for such people. I will try to write a brief conversational summary of what the papers show:

                                                  First, I was interested to show how energy is related to money. One may estimate the increase in the total energy budget (E) associated with a diversified monetary investment by multiplying the capital, operating, and other costs of the investment by the E/GDP ratio.

                                                  To eliminate the confusion regarding the ratio of energy returned to energy invested (ER/EI), three separate ER/EI ratios are defined depending upon what is included in the energy invested term. The one that gives the highest (most optimistic) value includes only the direct energy costs of providing the net energy to the economy and is independent of political economy. The next highest includes the energy expenses of the workers in the energy sector as well as all subsequent costs generated by these. It is still independent of political economy provided the standard of living of the workers is invariant. The most realistic ER/EI raio includes, in addition, the energy costs of commerce plus the additional energy costs of over-consumption by those associated with the energy sector who earn more than workers.
                                                  To illustrate graphically the effect of lowering the ER/EI ratio due to substituting a less efficient technology for the technology that preceded it chronologically, I created a chart in which E approaches infinity as ER/EI approaches 1.0 (from above, naturally). (Chart 2) This is important because many alternative primary energy technologies like alcohol from biomass or wind power have much lower ER/EI ratios than oil, coal, and gas.

                                                  The total energy budget and the amount of work performed in each sector to maintain a constant standard of living are lowered by 16.7% (for the energy) and 6.1% (for the labor) when an American-style market economy changes to a market economy where everyone is paid the same. When the change is to a planned economy with a commissar class that earns what managers earn in the American-style market economy, energy is reduced by 46.9% and labor by 75.7%. When the change is to a planned economy where everyone is paid the same, energy is reduced by 50.3% and labor by 77.0%. (Chart 1)

                                                  The reason that I know that in the real American economy the savings would be even greater is that I have made the model economy much less wasteful than the American economy even though it resembles it in many important ways. Markets are unsustainable, then, for two reasons: (i) they use more than half of the energy and renewable energy cannot supply more than one-half of our current energy budget even with 100% market penetration or no resistance from the market, and (ii) markets promote growth - actually require growth as explained by David Delaney in Addendum II of http://dematerialism.net/On%20Capitalism2.html .



                                                  That said, I want Jon Cousins to understand that, while my writing may be opaque to him, a statement like "money is a way of showing the movement of energy between people" probably means something completely different to him than it does to me. I have to think, "Yes, multiply the cash flow by the E/GDP ratio to get the amount of energy that is added to the energy budget. Unfortunately, all cash flow increases the flow of energy because it adds to the GDP, the total of all domestic monetary transactions; and, the energy budget is the E/GDP ratio multiplied by the GDP. If Jon sold me something that he would have consumed had he kept it and he doesn't spend the money or put it in a bank, no harm is done; but, if Jon is selling widgets that he has no intention to use himself and that will be replaced by more widgets to fill up his inventory, then the deficit spending of precious resources is exacerbated. Thus, the harmfulness of consumerism."

                                                  We all speak the same language, but we don't speak the same language.



                                                  Finally, I very much hope that none of us is planning a community (or a community currency) based upon artificial economic contingency or that even encourages artificial economic contingency. Artificial economic contingency (AEC) is the circumstance where a person's economic well-being depends upon what he does or what he doesn't do or who he is or who his parents were or anything at all except acts of God. It is AEC that introduces greed and fear into economic life; whereas, when a person has achieved the elevated spiritual state many of you have spoken of, he should not care if he is talented and productive and receives no more from the economy than lazy untalented people who contribute nothing. As soon as a community permits the introduction of AEC, a man with a wife and children will do ANYTHING to increase their share of the community dividend, every incentive to increase the community dividend beyond measure arises, and weaker people begin to live under a cloak of fear that there will not be enough - and there usually isn't as the strong appropriate everything to themselves.

                                                  So, perhaps sustainability is a spiritual problem after all. But, the numbers better add up.



                                                  Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                                  http://dematerialism.net/

                                                  P.S. Artificial economic contingency is what I mean by *materialism*, which is the real-life Pandora's Box. Any scheme for unwinding materialism is what I call *dematerialism*.



                                                  Steve Bosserman <stevebosserman@...> wrote:

                                                  Hi,

                                                  The exchanges among Tom, Terry, Jon, John, and Jon over the past three days
                                                  are truly insightful, reassuring, and inspiring. Our current reality is
                                                  often not an easy place to have influence and make a difference; and maybe
                                                  that's what we are here to learn how to do better. Terry is spot-on-one
                                                  can't change other people and it is an exercise in futility trying.
                                                  However, regardless of where someone is, where they have been, where they
                                                  are going, or how they interpret the universe and their place in it, they
                                                  have energy: physical, intellectual, social, spiritual to name a few.

                                                  My joy comes from bringing these sources of energy-people-together and
                                                  seeing what happens. Almost instinctively, individuals and organizations
                                                  stick doggedly to the power structure that pays them and permit that
                                                  structure to dictate who they talk to, about what, when, and where.
                                                  Disrupting that stodgy conversational status quo frees up and redirects
                                                  energy; people get creative and innovative. They give! As Jon C stated,

                                                  "'The Medium is the Message', so "Be the change you want to see". Join a
                                                  Time Bank! Give energy directly by doing things for people, and allow them
                                                  to do things for you. The movement of energy is life. Give life directly,
                                                  try leaving out the middle 'Money' bit."

                                                  And if they experience the positive results of what happens when the
                                                  energies of many converge in greatness, well, there is no stopping it!

                                                  Having spent much of my career working with engineers I can say they quite
                                                  often have a penchant for facts and formulas. Not being an engineer, I can
                                                  certainly empathize with those who have difficulty making sense out of
                                                  numbers, spreadsheets, and mathematical expressions. What I have noticed,
                                                  though, are three things engineers like to have in place to believe they are
                                                  doing the right work and doing it effectively: a sensible, fact-based
                                                  problem statement, reasonably well-defined processes and tools to derive,
                                                  develop, and deploy potential solutions, and a set of relevant metrics that
                                                  indicate progress or lack thereof as potential solutions are tested and
                                                  applied. Providing these three elements is a powerful way to draw energy
                                                  from those VERY capable people who value them. And no doubt there are
                                                  others in the world besides engineers who feel better working within this
                                                  same context.

                                                  Tom, here is where your work is of enormous value. First, being an
                                                  engineer, your work speaks to other engineers and those who share similar
                                                  mental models: here is the problem; here is the framework around which
                                                  different approaches can be developed, tested, and applied; and here is a
                                                  way effectiveness can be measured. Second, you have a methodology that
                                                  assigns performance metrics to the behaviors of systems different than what
                                                  the dominant culture proffers today. As the old quality adage goes, "you
                                                  get what you measure." You have a way to measure what is wanted, not what
                                                  we have. How priceless! Third, the logic of what you have constructed
                                                  offers a bridge between what is currently dominant and what is emergent. In
                                                  other words it doesn't propose a set of guidelines and operating criteria so
                                                  arcane, ungrounded, and illogical that it forces a separation of
                                                  intellectual / spiritual sensibilities from purposeful and tenable action.
                                                  People can get engaged and cross over while not anticipating or planning for
                                                  it.

                                                  Clearly, there is application for your work in the realm of community
                                                  currencies and open economy that underpin Cyfranogi. There are some
                                                  projects I am doing that could touch several groups within the Mincui Sodas
                                                  (MS) realm. Perhaps we could explore this openly in this forum or another
                                                  within MS to see what emerges. Would this be of interest to you?

                                                  Looking forward to your response!

                                                  Best regards,

                                                  Steve B.

                                                  .

                                                  _____

                                                  From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                  Of avalonfairshares
                                                  Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:10 AM
                                                  To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: RE: [cyfranogi] Fighting Scarcity with Cooperation

                                                  Hi Steve and Tom and Jon, (and everyone else),

                                                  Firstly, I feel in no way qualified to make any comments about these things,
                                                  and - having said that - here they are:

                                                  I have had a very short look at Tom's documents, and there seems to be a
                                                  huge gap between the 'science' and the message.

                                                  > I have been singularly unsuccessful in raising the level of
                                                  > understanding among the people who contribute to this forum even.
                                                  > Someone needs to teach me how to reach people.

                                                  Well, it is - unfortunately - hard to read Tom's documents.

                                                  I am genuinely interested in sustainable human beings interacting with an
                                                  abundant planet, in an abundant solar system. But "I don't have the Latin".

                                                  A very similar thing happens when I'm trying to read "No More Throw Away
                                                  People" by Edgar Cahn - its a book all about Time Banking and Co-production.
                                                  I work in Time Banking and Co-production, I am a big fan of Edgar, but ...
                                                  reading his book is like wading through treacle.

                                                  I would like things stated simply. When I'm talking with the people who
                                                  take part in the Avalon Fair Shares Time Bank, I say: "money is a way of
                                                  showing the movement of energy between people." They say "yes." I think it
                                                  is quite simple really.

                                                  The sun is shining. Energy comes from the sun, through plants, to us. We
                                                  exchange this energy when we do things for ourselves and others. Money is
                                                  just a formalised promise from our community that you'll get some energy
                                                  back.

                                                  All this other stuff - consumerism, capitalism, mass production, scarcity,
                                                  etc., etc. - its all a beautiful waste of time. We are the people who give
                                                  Money and the Market its power. Change what you invest 'your' energy in.

                                                  'The Medium is the Message', so "Be the change you want to see". Join a
                                                  Time Bank! Give energy directly by doing things for people, and allow them
                                                  to do things for you. The movement of energy is life. Give life directly,
                                                  try leaving out the middle 'Money' bit.

                                                  The universe is abundant, and what goes around comes around. The Sun is
                                                  still shining.

                                                  :-)

                                                  Jon Cousins
                                                  not - particularly - representing the views of Avalon Fair Shares
                                                  Glastonbury. UK


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Steve Bosserman
                                                  Hi Tom (and ALL), Thanks so much for summarizing the central points in your thesis. That clarification made your message more understandable and actionable.
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Sep 1, 2006
                                                  View Source
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Hi Tom (and ALL),



                                                    Thanks so much for summarizing the central points in your thesis. That
                                                    clarification made your message more understandable and actionable. Also,
                                                    thanks for your willingness to go another step in seeing how we might work
                                                    together in a project of mutual interest. Here is what I'm considering.



                                                    I live in Columbus, Ohio, USA. This is a city of roughly 750,000 and a
                                                    population of the greater metropolitan area of 1,500,000. Like many
                                                    American cities over the past 50 years, Columbus has formed tertiary
                                                    suburban rings and a proliferation of exurbs running in every direction.
                                                    Today, the city covers almost 500 square kilometers and there are over 8,000
                                                    square kilometers in the six-county greater metropolitan area. There seems
                                                    to be no stopping it with new housing developments springing up almost daily
                                                    and radically altering land use. Particularly telling is the information on
                                                    the web http://www.thecityofcolumbus.com/ about the attitude Columbus has
                                                    toward growth:



                                                    "Its large size relative to many American cities is mostly a result of a
                                                    long-standing and aggressive policy of annexing surrounding vacant or
                                                    agricultural land. The city then extends water and sewage lines into the new
                                                    area so that the land can be developed, thereby encouraging urban growth.
                                                    The region's relatively flat topography aids the expansion."



                                                    Applying your metrics this would be about as wasteful as it gets with the
                                                    energy invested (EI) far outstripping the energy (ER) returned! And this
                                                    distortion happens in every way imaginable: poor use of land, wasted
                                                    investment of human and social capital, degradation of the environment,
                                                    dysfunctional neighborhood designs, excessive consumption, squandered
                                                    natural resources, gross systemic inefficiencies, separation of people from
                                                    that which sustains them, usurpation of the human dignity and self-respect
                                                    of those who are less influential, and concentrating of power and wealth in
                                                    the hands of a few.



                                                    Yet despite all these challenges, there are many people in this same
                                                    geographic area who are doing things that supposedly generate a much
                                                    healthier ER / EI ratio. For instance, the Clintonville Community Market is
                                                    celebrating its 35th anniversary this weekend
                                                    http://www.thisweeknews.com/?sec=clintonville
                                                    <http://www.thisweeknews.com/?sec=clintonville&story=sites/thisweeknews/0831
                                                    06/Clintonville/News/083106-News-216315.html>
                                                    &story=sites/thisweeknews/083106/Clintonville/News/083106-News-216315.html.
                                                    Clintonville is a middle-class neighborhood in north central Columbus. The
                                                    Clintonville Community Market is a co-op boasting of over 1,000 members,
                                                    most of them from the Clintonville neighborhood. They and many others in
                                                    the Columbus area constitute a die-hard lot dedicated to supporting farmer
                                                    markets, co-ops, community supported agriculture (CSA), and the
                                                    locally-produced organic foods industry in general. In fact, the
                                                    anniversary celebration this weekend will take place at Mayflag Farms,
                                                    http://www.rhoades.ws/~mainstream/news.htm, a certified organic producer who
                                                    participates in a nationwide organic food distribution network serving
                                                    local, regional, and national markets.



                                                    The purpose of relaying this information is not to be a shamelessly boastful
                                                    promoter of activities in my hometown, but rather to say a couple of things:
                                                    one, MANY of us have examples like this-mine is just a drop in the bucket,
                                                    and two, it is doubtful that the benefits we THINK we are getting from doing
                                                    food production, processing, packaging, distribution, retailing, and
                                                    consuming the way the good people of the Clintonville Community Market and
                                                    Mayflag Farms and the Clintonville neighborhood are not really that good.



                                                    I can imagine Tom applying his analytical skills at what it takes in the way
                                                    of energy invested to make the Clintonville Community Market "system" work
                                                    and comparing that to what is returned and.well.the answer may be
                                                    surprising. Furthermore, I can imagine the methodology Tom uses to
                                                    determine the ER / EI ratio for the Clintonville Community Market system
                                                    becoming standardized. Then, it can be applied consistently and uniformly
                                                    across the board in a multitude of situations where a comparative
                                                    understanding of the functioning of one system in relation to another is an
                                                    important factor in sound decision-making. Eventually, a formalized rating
                                                    system can be developed whereby various technologies, products, methods,
                                                    systems can be valued by how well they perform on an ER / EI ratio. Of
                                                    course, if this factor is not an important consideration other criteria will
                                                    be the deciding influences. However, if such a rating is a prime element in
                                                    reaching a good decision, knowing the soundness of the process applied, the
                                                    consistency of the methodology used, and the credibility of the factor
                                                    assigned will give the decision-maker confidence that the decision reached
                                                    is in keeping with personal values.



                                                    Let me close with another example. Earlier today I sent an article about
                                                    the Sisters of Notre Dame de Namur and their $250,000 solar-powered energy
                                                    and sanitation system to be installed in Fugar, Nigeria to Jeff Buderer and
                                                    Janet Feldman for their reference. Jeff responded with an excellent
                                                    reference to the Fantsuam Foundation and the use of bio-fuels in concert
                                                    with integrated waste management and farming systems (IWMFS) as a way to
                                                    provide the energy needed to generate electricity for applications like
                                                    those in Fugar. It seems that a combination of the two would be
                                                    particularly effective, but how would anyone know? Here's where the ER / EI
                                                    factor is very helpful. The system in Fugar based on solar energy has a
                                                    rating and the bio-fuel / IWMFS approach has a different rating, and a
                                                    combination of solar and bio-fuel / IWMFS has yet a different rating.
                                                    Depending on circumstances, personal / community values, and the
                                                    availability of choices a more informed decision is made. Such factors as
                                                    guidelines is a major step in getting more people to recognize that better
                                                    decisions can be made and that they can have greater influence. It's a
                                                    step!



                                                    I will stop here with a simple statement that the project I have in mind
                                                    establishes a rating system based on ER / EI ratios that is standardized,
                                                    viable in a wide variety of circumstances, and yields a factor that allows
                                                    people to have credible comparisons among diverse alternatives and make
                                                    informed decisions. Tom, it is my opinion that what you and others have
                                                    developed is the basis for such a project being possible. But that is only
                                                    one person's view. What do you think?



                                                    And the opinions and viewpoints of all readers are VERY WELCOME, PLEASE!



                                                    Thanks one and all for your ideas.



                                                    Best regards,



                                                    Steve B.







                                                    _____

                                                    From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                    Of Tom Wayburn
                                                    Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 12:11 PM
                                                    To: cyfranogi
                                                    Cc: civilization@...
                                                    Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: You Get What You Measure...



                                                    Steve, Jon, et al.,

                                                    I am answering Steve's post, but my answer is for everyone.

                                                    Steve wrote: Clearly, there is application for your work in the realm of
                                                    community
                                                    currencies and open economy that underpin Cyfranogi. There are some
                                                    projects I am doing that could touch several groups within the Mincui Sodas
                                                    (MS) realm. Perhaps we could explore this openly in this forum or another
                                                    within MS to see what emerges. Would this be of interest to you?

                                                    Yes, I would be interested to help in any way I can.

                                                    I especially appreciate Steve's response to my papers, which are difficult
                                                    for many people to read. I suppose the papers are really not for such
                                                    people. I will try to write a brief conversational summary of what the
                                                    papers show:

                                                    First, I was interested to show how energy is related to money. One may
                                                    estimate the increase in the total energy budget (E) associated with a
                                                    diversified monetary investment by multiplying the capital, operating, and
                                                    other costs of the investment by the E/GDP ratio.

                                                    To eliminate the confusion regarding the ratio of energy returned to energy
                                                    invested (ER/EI), three separate ER/EI ratios are defined depending upon
                                                    what is included in the energy invested term. The one that gives the highest
                                                    (most optimistic) value includes only the direct energy costs of providing
                                                    the net energy to the economy and is independent of political economy. The
                                                    next highest includes the energy expenses of the workers in the energy
                                                    sector as well as all subsequent costs generated by these. It is still
                                                    independent of political economy provided the standard of living of the
                                                    workers is invariant. The most realistic ER/EI raio includes, in addition,
                                                    the energy costs of commerce plus the additional energy costs of
                                                    over-consumption by those associated with the energy sector who earn more
                                                    than workers.
                                                    To illustrate graphically the effect of lowering the ER/EI ratio due to
                                                    substituting a less efficient technology for the technology that preceded it
                                                    chronologically, I created a chart in which E approaches infinity as ER/EI
                                                    approaches 1.0 (from above, naturally). (Chart 2) This is important because
                                                    many alternative primary energy technologies like alcohol from biomass or
                                                    wind power have much lower ER/EI ratios than oil, coal, and gas.

                                                    The total energy budget and the amount of work performed in each sector to
                                                    maintain a constant standard of living are lowered by 16.7% (for the energy)
                                                    and 6.1% (for the labor) when an American-style market economy changes to a
                                                    market economy where everyone is paid the same. When the change is to a
                                                    planned economy with a commissar class that earns what managers earn in the
                                                    American-style market economy, energy is reduced by 46.9% and labor by
                                                    75.7%. When the change is to a planned economy where everyone is paid the
                                                    same, energy is reduced by 50.3% and labor by 77.0%. (Chart 1)

                                                    The reason that I know that in the real American economy the savings would
                                                    be even greater is that I have made the model economy much less wasteful
                                                    than the American economy even though it resembles it in many important
                                                    ways. Markets are unsustainable, then, for two reasons: (i) they use more
                                                    than half of the energy and renewable energy cannot supply more than
                                                    one-half of our current energy budget even with 100% market penetration or
                                                    no resistance from the market, and (ii) markets promote growth - actually
                                                    require growth as explained by David Delaney in Addendum II of
                                                    http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/On%20Capitalism2.html>
                                                    m.net/On%20Capitalism2.html .

                                                    That said, I want Jon Cousins to understand that, while my writing may be
                                                    opaque to him, a statement like "money is a way of showing the movement of
                                                    energy between people" probably means something completely different to him
                                                    than it does to me. I have to think, "Yes, multiply the cash flow by the
                                                    E/GDP ratio to get the amount of energy that is added to the energy budget.
                                                    Unfortunately, all cash flow increases the flow of energy because it adds to
                                                    the GDP, the total of all domestic monetary transactions; and, the energy
                                                    budget is the E/GDP ratio multiplied by the GDP. If Jon sold me something
                                                    that he would have consumed had he kept it and he doesn't spend the money or
                                                    put it in a bank, no harm is done; but, if Jon is selling widgets that he
                                                    has no intention to use himself and that will be replaced by more widgets to
                                                    fill up his inventory, then the deficit spending of precious resources is
                                                    exacerbated. Thus, the harmfulness of consumerism."

                                                    We all speak the same language, but we don't speak the same language.

                                                    Finally, I very much hope that none of us is planning a community (or a
                                                    community currency) based upon artificial economic contingency or that even
                                                    encourages artificial economic contingency. Artificial economic contingency
                                                    (AEC) is the circumstance where a person's economic well-being depends upon
                                                    what he does or what he doesn't do or who he is or who his parents were or
                                                    anything at all except acts of God. It is AEC that introduces greed and fear
                                                    into economic life; whereas, when a person has achieved the elevated
                                                    spiritual state many of you have spoken of, he should not care if he is
                                                    talented and productive and receives no more from the economy than lazy
                                                    untalented people who contribute nothing. As soon as a community permits the
                                                    introduction of AEC, a man with a wife and children will do ANYTHING to
                                                    increase their share of the community dividend, every incentive to increase
                                                    the community dividend beyond measure arises, and weaker people begin to
                                                    live under a cloak of fear that there will not be enough - and there usually
                                                    isn't as the strong appropriate everything to themselves.

                                                    So, perhaps sustainability is a spiritual problem after all. But, the
                                                    numbers better add up.

                                                    Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                                    http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/

                                                    P.S. Artificial economic contingency is what I mean by *materialism*, which
                                                    is the real-life Pandora's Box. Any scheme for unwinding materialism is what
                                                    I call *dematerialism*.

                                                    Steve Bosserman <stevebosserman@ <mailto:stevebosserman%40yahoo.com>
                                                    yahoo.com> wrote:

                                                    Hi,

                                                    The exchanges among Tom, Terry, Jon, John, and Jon over the past three days
                                                    are truly insightful, reassuring, and inspiring. Our current reality is
                                                    often not an easy place to have influence and make a difference; and maybe
                                                    that's what we are here to learn how to do better. Terry is spot-on-one
                                                    can't change other people and it is an exercise in futility trying.
                                                    However, regardless of where someone is, where they have been, where they
                                                    are going, or how they interpret the universe and their place in it, they
                                                    have energy: physical, intellectual, social, spiritual to name a few.

                                                    My joy comes from bringing these sources of energy-people-together and
                                                    seeing what happens. Almost instinctively, individuals and organizations
                                                    stick doggedly to the power structure that pays them and permit that
                                                    structure to dictate who they talk to, about what, when, and where.
                                                    Disrupting that stodgy conversational status quo frees up and redirects
                                                    energy; people get creative and innovative. They give! As Jon C stated,

                                                    "'The Medium is the Message', so "Be the change you want to see". Join a
                                                    Time Bank! Give energy directly by doing things for people, and allow them
                                                    to do things for you. The movement of energy is life. Give life directly,
                                                    try leaving out the middle 'Money' bit."

                                                    And if they experience the positive results of what happens when the
                                                    energies of many converge in greatness, well, there is no stopping it!

                                                    Having spent much of my career working with engineers I can say they quite
                                                    often have a penchant for facts and formulas. Not being an engineer, I can
                                                    certainly empathize with those who have difficulty making sense out of
                                                    numbers, spreadsheets, and mathematical expressions. What I have noticed,
                                                    though, are three things engineers like to have in place to believe they are
                                                    doing the right work and doing it effectively: a sensible, fact-based
                                                    problem statement, reasonably well-defined processes and tools to derive,
                                                    develop, and deploy potential solutions, and a set of relevant metrics that
                                                    indicate progress or lack thereof as potential solutions are tested and
                                                    applied. Providing these three elements is a powerful way to draw energy
                                                    from those VERY capable people who value them. And no doubt there are
                                                    others in the world besides engineers who feel better working within this
                                                    same context.

                                                    Tom, here is where your work is of enormous value. First, being an
                                                    engineer, your work speaks to other engineers and those who share similar
                                                    mental models: here is the problem; here is the framework around which
                                                    different approaches can be developed, tested, and applied; and here is a
                                                    way effectiveness can be measured. Second, you have a methodology that
                                                    assigns performance metrics to the behaviors of systems different than what
                                                    the dominant culture proffers today. As the old quality adage goes, "you
                                                    get what you measure." You have a way to measure what is wanted, not what
                                                    we have. How priceless! Third, the logic of what you have constructed
                                                    offers a bridge between what is currently dominant and what is emergent. In
                                                    other words it doesn't propose a set of guidelines and operating criteria so
                                                    arcane, ungrounded, and illogical that it forces a separation of
                                                    intellectual / spiritual sensibilities from purposeful and tenable action.
                                                    People can get engaged and cross over while not anticipating or planning for
                                                    it.

                                                    Clearly, there is application for your work in the realm of community
                                                    currencies and open economy that underpin Cyfranogi. There are some
                                                    projects I am doing that could touch several groups within the Mincui Sodas
                                                    (MS) realm. Perhaps we could explore this openly in this forum or another
                                                    within MS to see what emerges. Would this be of interest to you?

                                                    Looking forward to your response!

                                                    Best regards,

                                                    Steve B.

                                                    .

                                                    _____

                                                    From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                                    [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] On
                                                    Behalf
                                                    Of avalonfairshares
                                                    Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:10 AM
                                                    To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                                    Subject: RE: [cyfranogi] Fighting Scarcity with Cooperation

                                                    Hi Steve and Tom and Jon, (and everyone else),

                                                    Firstly, I feel in no way qualified to make any comments about these things,
                                                    and - having said that - here they are:

                                                    I have had a very short look at Tom's documents, and there seems to be a
                                                    huge gap between the 'science' and the message.

                                                    > I have been singularly unsuccessful in raising the level of
                                                    > understanding among the people who contribute to this forum even.
                                                    > Someone needs to teach me how to reach people.

                                                    Well, it is - unfortunately - hard to read Tom's documents.

                                                    I am genuinely interested in sustainable human beings interacting with an
                                                    abundant planet, in an abundant solar system. But "I don't have the Latin".

                                                    A very similar thing happens when I'm trying to read "No More Throw Away
                                                    People" by Edgar Cahn - its a book all about Time Banking and Co-production.
                                                    I work in Time Banking and Co-production, I am a big fan of Edgar, but ...
                                                    reading his book is like wading through treacle.

                                                    I would like things stated simply. When I'm talking with the people who
                                                    take part in the Avalon Fair Shares Time Bank, I say: "money is a way of
                                                    showing the movement of energy between people." They say "yes." I think it
                                                    is quite simple really.

                                                    The sun is shining. Energy comes from the sun, through plants, to us. We
                                                    exchange this energy when we do things for ourselves and others. Money is
                                                    just a formalised promise from our community that you'll get some energy
                                                    back.

                                                    All this other stuff - consumerism, capitalism, mass production, scarcity,
                                                    etc., etc. - its all a beautiful waste of time. We are the people who give
                                                    Money and the Market its power. Change what you invest 'your' energy in.

                                                    'The Medium is the Message', so "Be the change you want to see". Join a
                                                    Time Bank! Give energy directly by doing things for people, and allow them
                                                    to do things for you. The movement of energy is life. Give life directly,
                                                    try leaving out the middle 'Money' bit.

                                                    The universe is abundant, and what goes around comes around. The Sun is
                                                    still shining.

                                                    :-)

                                                    Jon Cousins
                                                    not - particularly - representing the views of Avalon Fair Shares
                                                    Glastonbury. UK

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Tom Wayburn
                                                    Steve, ER/EI analysis applies to primary energy technologies. What you need is an efficiency study. What would be the eMergy of the goods entering the market
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Sep 2, 2006
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                                                      Steve,

                                                      ER/EI analysis applies to primary energy technologies. What you need is an efficiency study. What would be the eMergy of the goods entering the market if they were not sold? What is the eMergy after they are sold? The efficiency is the first divided by the second (times 100 if you want a percent). This involves a complex study of each item sold individually; however, if they are selling mostly food, I may be able to do something. If they know their own energy expenses and other bookkeeping details, I might be able to compute an efficiency more accurately. I will think about it. Tell me a little more about what sort of information is available, i.e., retail and wholesale prices, specific expenses, salaries, etc. Just what is available not the data itself.

                                                      Tom


                                                      Steve Bosserman <stevebosserman@...> wrote:
                                                      Hi Tom (and ALL),

                                                      Thanks so much for summarizing the central points in your thesis. That
                                                      clarification made your message more understandable and actionable. Also,
                                                      thanks for your willingness to go another step in seeing how we might work
                                                      together in a project of mutual interest. Here is what I'm considering.

                                                      I live in Columbus, Ohio, USA. This is a city of roughly 750,000 and a
                                                      population of the greater metropolitan area of 1,500,000. Like many
                                                      American cities over the past 50 years, Columbus has formed tertiary
                                                      suburban rings and a proliferation of exurbs running in every direction.
                                                      Today, the city covers almost 500 square kilometers and there are over 8,000
                                                      square kilometers in the six-county greater metropolitan area. There seems
                                                      to be no stopping it with new housing developments springing up almost daily
                                                      and radically altering land use. Particularly telling is the information on
                                                      the web http://www.thecityofcolumbus.com/ about the attitude Columbus has
                                                      toward growth:

                                                      "Its large size relative to many American cities is mostly a result of a
                                                      long-standing and aggressive policy of annexing surrounding vacant or
                                                      agricultural land. The city then extends water and sewage lines into the new
                                                      area so that the land can be developed, thereby encouraging urban growth.
                                                      The region's relatively flat topography aids the expansion."

                                                      Applying your metrics this would be about as wasteful as it gets with the
                                                      energy invested (EI) far outstripping the energy (ER) returned! And this
                                                      distortion happens in every way imaginable: poor use of land, wasted
                                                      investment of human and social capital, degradation of the environment,
                                                      dysfunctional neighborhood designs, excessive consumption, squandered
                                                      natural resources, gross systemic inefficiencies, separation of people from
                                                      that which sustains them, usurpation of the human dignity and self-respect
                                                      of those who are less influential, and concentrating of power and wealth in
                                                      the hands of a few.

                                                      Yet despite all these challenges, there are many people in this same
                                                      geographic area who are doing things that supposedly generate a much
                                                      healthier ER / EI ratio. For instance, the Clintonville Community Market is
                                                      celebrating its 35th anniversary this weekend
                                                      http://www.thisweeknews.com/?sec=clintonville
                                                      <http://www.thisweeknews.com/?sec=clintonville&story=sites/thisweeknews/0831
                                                      06/Clintonville/News/083106-News-216315.html>
                                                      &story=sites/thisweeknews/083106/Clintonville/News/083106-News-216315.html.
                                                      Clintonville is a middle-class neighborhood in north central Columbus. The
                                                      Clintonville Community Market is a co-op boasting of over 1,000 members,
                                                      most of them from the Clintonville neighborhood. They and many others in
                                                      the Columbus area constitute a die-hard lot dedicated to supporting farmer
                                                      markets, co-ops, community supported agriculture (CSA), and the
                                                      locally-produced organic foods industry in general. In fact, the
                                                      anniversary celebration this weekend will take place at Mayflag Farms,
                                                      http://www.rhoades.ws/~mainstream/news.htm, a certified organic producer who
                                                      participates in a nationwide organic food distribution network serving
                                                      local, regional, and national markets.

                                                      The purpose of relaying this information is not to be a shamelessly boastful
                                                      promoter of activities in my hometown, but rather to say a couple of things:
                                                      one, MANY of us have examples like this-mine is just a drop in the bucket,
                                                      and two, it is doubtful that the benefits we THINK we are getting from doing
                                                      food production, processing, packaging, distribution, retailing, and
                                                      consuming the way the good people of the Clintonville Community Market and
                                                      Mayflag Farms and the Clintonville neighborhood are not really that good.

                                                      I can imagine Tom applying his analytical skills at what it takes in the way
                                                      of energy invested to make the Clintonville Community Market "system" work
                                                      and comparing that to what is returned and.well.the answer may be
                                                      surprising. Furthermore, I can imagine the methodology Tom uses to
                                                      determine the ER / EI ratio for the Clintonville Community Market system
                                                      becoming standardized. Then, it can be applied consistently and uniformly
                                                      across the board in a multitude of situations where a comparative
                                                      understanding of the functioning of one system in relation to another is an
                                                      important factor in sound decision-making. Eventually, a formalized rating
                                                      system can be developed whereby various technologies, products, methods,
                                                      systems can be valued by how well they perform on an ER / EI ratio. Of
                                                      course, if this factor is not an important consideration other criteria will
                                                      be the deciding influences. However, if such a rating is a prime element in
                                                      reaching a good decision, knowing the soundness of the process applied, the
                                                      consistency of the methodology used, and the credibility of the factor
                                                      assigned will give the decision-maker confidence that the decision reached
                                                      is in keeping with personal values.

                                                      Let me close with another example. Earlier today I sent an article about
                                                      the Sisters of Notre Dame de Namur and their $250,000 solar-powered energy
                                                      and sanitation system to be installed in Fugar, Nigeria to Jeff Buderer and
                                                      Janet Feldman for their reference. Jeff responded with an excellent
                                                      reference to the Fantsuam Foundation and the use of bio-fuels in concert
                                                      with integrated waste management and farming systems (IWMFS) as a way to
                                                      provide the energy needed to generate electricity for applications like
                                                      those in Fugar. It seems that a combination of the two would be
                                                      particularly effective, but how would anyone know? Here's where the ER / EI
                                                      factor is very helpful. The system in Fugar based on solar energy has a
                                                      rating and the bio-fuel / IWMFS approach has a different rating, and a
                                                      combination of solar and bio-fuel / IWMFS has yet a different rating.
                                                      Depending on circumstances, personal / community values, and the
                                                      availability of choices a more informed decision is made. Such factors as
                                                      guidelines is a major step in getting more people to recognize that better
                                                      decisions can be made and that they can have greater influence. It's a
                                                      step!

                                                      I will stop here with a simple statement that the project I have in mind
                                                      establishes a rating system based on ER / EI ratios that is standardized,
                                                      viable in a wide variety of circumstances, and yields a factor that allows
                                                      people to have credible comparisons among diverse alternatives and make
                                                      informed decisions. Tom, it is my opinion that what you and others have
                                                      developed is the basis for such a project being possible. But that is only
                                                      one person's view. What do you think?

                                                      And the opinions and viewpoints of all readers are VERY WELCOME, PLEASE!

                                                      Thanks one and all for your ideas.

                                                      Best regards,

                                                      Steve B.

                                                      _____

                                                      From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                      Of Tom Wayburn
                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 12:11 PM
                                                      To: cyfranogi
                                                      Cc: civilization@...
                                                      Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: You Get What You Measure...

                                                      Steve, Jon, et al.,

                                                      I am answering Steve's post, but my answer is for everyone.

                                                      Steve wrote: Clearly, there is application for your work in the realm of
                                                      community
                                                      currencies and open economy that underpin Cyfranogi. There are some
                                                      projects I am doing that could touch several groups within the Mincui Sodas
                                                      (MS) realm. Perhaps we could explore this openly in this forum or another
                                                      within MS to see what emerges. Would this be of interest to you?

                                                      Yes, I would be interested to help in any way I can.

                                                      I especially appreciate Steve's response to my papers, which are difficult
                                                      for many people to read. I suppose the papers are really not for such
                                                      people. I will try to write a brief conversational summary of what the
                                                      papers show:

                                                      First, I was interested to show how energy is related to money. One may
                                                      estimate the increase in the total energy budget (E) associated with a
                                                      diversified monetary investment by multiplying the capital, operating, and
                                                      other costs of the investment by the E/GDP ratio.

                                                      To eliminate the confusion regarding the ratio of energy returned to energy
                                                      invested (ER/EI), three separate ER/EI ratios are defined depending upon
                                                      what is included in the energy invested term. The one that gives the highest
                                                      (most optimistic) value includes only the direct energy costs of providing
                                                      the net energy to the economy and is independent of political economy. The
                                                      next highest includes the energy expenses of the workers in the energy
                                                      sector as well as all subsequent costs generated by these. It is still
                                                      independent of political economy provided the standard of living of the
                                                      workers is invariant. The most realistic ER/EI raio includes, in addition,
                                                      the energy costs of commerce plus the additional energy costs of
                                                      over-consumption by those associated with the energy sector who earn more
                                                      than workers.
                                                      To illustrate graphically the effect of lowering the ER/EI ratio due to
                                                      substituting a less efficient technology for the technology that preceded it
                                                      chronologically, I created a chart in which E approaches infinity as ER/EI
                                                      approaches 1.0 (from above, naturally). (Chart 2) This is important because
                                                      many alternative primary energy technologies like alcohol from biomass or
                                                      wind power have much lower ER/EI ratios than oil, coal, and gas.

                                                      The total energy budget and the amount of work performed in each sector to
                                                      maintain a constant standard of living are lowered by 16.7% (for the energy)
                                                      and 6.1% (for the labor) when an American-style market economy changes to a
                                                      market economy where everyone is paid the same. When the change is to a
                                                      planned economy with a commissar class that earns what managers earn in the
                                                      American-style market economy, energy is reduced by 46.9% and labor by
                                                      75.7%. When the change is to a planned economy where everyone is paid the
                                                      same, energy is reduced by 50.3% and labor by 77.0%. (Chart 1)

                                                      The reason that I know that in the real American economy the savings would
                                                      be even greater is that I have made the model economy much less wasteful
                                                      than the American economy even though it resembles it in many important
                                                      ways. Markets are unsustainable, then, for two reasons: (i) they use more
                                                      than half of the energy and renewable energy cannot supply more than
                                                      one-half of our current energy budget even with 100% market penetration or
                                                      no resistance from the market, and (ii) markets promote growth - actually
                                                      require growth as explained by David Delaney in Addendum II of
                                                      http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/On%20Capitalism2.html>
                                                      m.net/On%20Capitalism2.html .

                                                      That said, I want Jon Cousins to understand that, while my writing may be
                                                      opaque to him, a statement like "money is a way of showing the movement of
                                                      energy between people" probably means something completely different to him
                                                      than it does to me. I have to think, "Yes, multiply the cash flow by the
                                                      E/GDP ratio to get the amount of energy that is added to the energy budget.
                                                      Unfortunately, all cash flow increases the flow of energy because it adds to
                                                      the GDP, the total of all domestic monetary transactions; and, the energy
                                                      budget is the E/GDP ratio multiplied by the GDP. If Jon sold me something
                                                      that he would have consumed had he kept it and he doesn't spend the money or
                                                      put it in a bank, no harm is done; but, if Jon is selling widgets that he
                                                      has no intention to use himself and that will be replaced by more widgets to
                                                      fill up his inventory, then the deficit spending of precious resources is
                                                      exacerbated. Thus, the harmfulness of consumerism."

                                                      We all speak the same language, but we don't speak the same language.

                                                      Finally, I very much hope that none of us is planning a community (or a
                                                      community currency) based upon artificial economic contingency or that even
                                                      encourages artificial economic contingency. Artificial economic contingency
                                                      (AEC) is the circumstance where a person's economic well-being depends upon
                                                      what he does or what he doesn't do or who he is or who his parents were or
                                                      anything at all except acts of God. It is AEC that introduces greed and fear
                                                      into economic life; whereas, when a person has achieved the elevated
                                                      spiritual state many of you have spoken of, he should not care if he is
                                                      talented and productive and receives no more from the economy than lazy
                                                      untalented people who contribute nothing. As soon as a community permits the
                                                      introduction of AEC, a man with a wife and children will do ANYTHING to
                                                      increase their share of the community dividend, every incentive to increase
                                                      the community dividend beyond measure arises, and weaker people begin to
                                                      live under a cloak of fear that there will not be enough - and there usually
                                                      isn't as the strong appropriate everything to themselves.

                                                      So, perhaps sustainability is a spiritual problem after all. But, the
                                                      numbers better add up.

                                                      Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                                      http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/

                                                      P.S. Artificial economic contingency is what I mean by *materialism*, which
                                                      is the real-life Pandora's Box. Any scheme for unwinding materialism is what
                                                      I call *dematerialism*.

                                                      Steve Bosserman <stevebosserman@ <mailto:stevebosserman%40yahoo.com>
                                                      yahoo.com> wrote:

                                                      Hi,

                                                      The exchanges among Tom, Terry, Jon, John, and Jon over the past three days
                                                      are truly insightful, reassuring, and inspiring. Our current reality is
                                                      often not an easy place to have influence and make a difference; and maybe
                                                      that's what we are here to learn how to do better. Terry is spot-on-one
                                                      can't change other people and it is an exercise in futility trying.
                                                      However, regardless of where someone is, where they have been, where they
                                                      are going, or how they interpret the universe and their place in it, they
                                                      have energy: physical, intellectual, social, spiritual to name a few.

                                                      My joy comes from bringing these sources of energy-people-together and
                                                      seeing what happens. Almost instinctively, individuals and organizations
                                                      stick doggedly to the power structure that pays them and permit that
                                                      structure to dictate who they talk to, about what, when, and where.
                                                      Disrupting that stodgy conversational status quo frees up and redirects
                                                      energy; people get creative and innovative. They give! As Jon C stated,

                                                      "'The Medium is the Message', so "Be the change you want to see". Join a
                                                      Time Bank! Give energy directly by doing things for people, and allow them
                                                      to do things for you. The movement of energy is life. Give life directly,
                                                      try leaving out the middle 'Money' bit."

                                                      And if they experience the positive results of what happens when the
                                                      energies of many converge in greatness, well, there is no stopping it!

                                                      Having spent much of my career working with engineers I can say they quite
                                                      often have a penchant for facts and formulas. Not being an engineer, I can
                                                      certainly empathize with those who have difficulty making sense out of
                                                      numbers, spreadsheets, and mathematical expressions. What I have noticed,
                                                      though, are three things engineers like to have in place to believe they are
                                                      doing the right work and doing it effectively: a sensible, fact-based
                                                      problem statement, reasonably well-defined processes and tools to derive,
                                                      develop, and deploy potential solutions, and a set of relevant metrics that
                                                      indicate progress or lack thereof as potential solutions are tested and
                                                      applied. Providing these three elements is a powerful way to draw energy
                                                      from those VERY capable people who value them. And no doubt there are
                                                      others in the world besides engineers who feel better working within this
                                                      same context.

                                                      Tom, here is where your work is of enormous value. First, being an
                                                      engineer, your work speaks to other engineers and those who share similar
                                                      mental models: here is the problem; here is the framework around which
                                                      different approaches can be developed, tested, and applied; and here is a
                                                      way effectiveness can be measured. Second, you have a methodology that
                                                      assigns performance metrics to the behaviors of systems different than what
                                                      the dominant culture proffers today. As the old quality adage goes, "you
                                                      get what you measure." You have a way to measure what is wanted, not what
                                                      we have. How priceless! Third, the logic of what you have constructed
                                                      offers a bridge between what is currently dominant and what is emergent. In
                                                      other words it doesn't propose a set of guidelines and operating criteria so
                                                      arcane, ungrounded, and illogical that it forces a separation of
                                                      intellectual / spiritual sensibilities from purposeful and tenable action.
                                                      People can get engaged and cross over while not anticipating or planning for
                                                      it.

                                                      Clearly, there is application for your work in the realm of community
                                                      currencies and open economy that underpin Cyfranogi. There are some
                                                      projects I am doing that could touch several groups within the Mincui Sodas
                                                      (MS) realm. Perhaps we could explore this openly in this forum or another
                                                      within MS to see what emerges. Would this be of interest to you?

                                                      Looking forward to your response!

                                                      Best regards,

                                                      Steve B.

                                                      .

                                                      _____

                                                      From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                                      [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] On
                                                      Behalf
                                                      Of avalonfairshares
                                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:10 AM
                                                      To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                                      Subject: RE: [cyfranogi] Fighting Scarcity with Cooperation

                                                      Hi Steve and Tom and Jon, (and everyone else),

                                                      Firstly, I feel in no way qualified to make any comments about these things,
                                                      and - having said that - here they are:

                                                      I have had a very short look at Tom's documents, and there seems to be a
                                                      huge gap between the 'science' and the message.

                                                      > I have been singularly unsuccessful in raising the level of
                                                      > understanding among the people who contribute to this forum even.
                                                      > Someone needs to teach me how to reach people.

                                                      Well, it is - unfortunately - hard to read Tom's documents.

                                                      I am genuinely interested in sustainable human beings interacting with an
                                                      abundant planet, in an abundant solar system. But "I don't have the Latin".

                                                      A very similar thing happens when I'm trying to read "No More Throw Away
                                                      People" by Edgar Cahn - its a book all about Time Banking and Co-production.
                                                      I work in Time Banking and Co-production, I am a big fan of Edgar, but ...
                                                      reading his book is like wading through treacle.

                                                      I would like things stated simply. When I'm talking with the people who
                                                      take part in the Avalon Fair Shares Time Bank, I say: "money is a way of
                                                      showing the movement of energy between people." They say "yes." I think it
                                                      is quite simple really.

                                                      The sun is shining. Energy comes from the sun, through plants, to us. We
                                                      exchange this energy when we do things for ourselves and others. Money is
                                                      just a formalised promise from our community that you'll get some energy
                                                      back.

                                                      All this other stuff - consumerism, capitalism, mass production, scarcity,
                                                      etc., etc. - its all a beautiful waste of time. We are the people who give
                                                      Money and the Market its power. Change what you invest 'your' energy in.

                                                      'The Medium is the Message', so "Be the change you want to see". Join a
                                                      Time Bank! Give energy directly by doing things for people, and allow them
                                                      to do things for you. The movement of energy is life. Give life directly,
                                                      try leaving out the middle 'Money' bit.

                                                      The universe is abundant, and what goes around comes around. The Sun is
                                                      still shining.

                                                      :-)

                                                      Jon Cousins
                                                      not - particularly - representing the views of Avalon Fair Shares
                                                      Glastonbury. UK

                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                                      Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                                      Blog: http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/
                                                      Website: http://dematerialism.net/
                                                      Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post: twayburn@...
                                                      If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to twayburn@... .





                                                      ---------------------------------
                                                      Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.

                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Benoit Couture
                                                      Dear Tom and Steve, just a note to say: Keep going guys...we are all being rained in and on with practical inspiration because of your personal and communal
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Sep 2, 2006
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                                                        Dear Tom and Steve,

                                                        just a note to say: "Keep going guys...we are all being rained in and on with practical inspiration because of your personal and communal pursuit. May God bless your journey and may we all discover how the oneness guiding you both adds up to what we are looking for, here and now, throughout Minciu Sodas lab and humanity's reality...Amen to God's Yes in us all...

                                                        Benoit Couture

                                                        Tom Wayburn <twayburn@...> wrote:
                                                        Steve,

                                                        ER/EI analysis applies to primary energy technologies. What you need is an efficiency study. What would be the eMergy of the goods entering the market if they were not sold? What is the eMergy after they are sold? The efficiency is the first divided by the second (times 100 if you want a percent). This involves a complex study of each item sold individually; however, if they are selling mostly food, I may be able to do something. If they know their own energy expenses and other bookkeeping details, I might be able to compute an efficiency more accurately. I will think about it. Tell me a little more about what sort of information is available, i.e., retail and wholesale prices, specific expenses, salaries, etc. Just what is available not the data itself.

                                                        Tom


                                                        Steve Bosserman <stevebosserman@...> wrote:
                                                        Hi Tom (and ALL),

                                                        Thanks so much for summarizing the central points in your thesis. That
                                                        clarification made your message more understandable and actionable. Also,
                                                        thanks for your willingness to go another step in seeing how we might work
                                                        together in a project of mutual interest. Here is what I'm considering.

                                                        I live in Columbus, Ohio, USA. This is a city of roughly 750,000 and a
                                                        population of the greater metropolitan area of 1,500,000. Like many
                                                        American cities over the past 50 years, Columbus has formed tertiary
                                                        suburban rings and a proliferation of exurbs running in every direction.
                                                        Today, the city covers almost 500 square kilometers and there are over 8,000
                                                        square kilometers in the six-county greater metropolitan area. There seems
                                                        to be no stopping it with new housing developments springing up almost daily
                                                        and radically altering land use. Particularly telling is the information on
                                                        the web http://www.thecityofcolumbus.com/ about the attitude Columbus has
                                                        toward growth:

                                                        "Its large size relative to many American cities is mostly a result of a
                                                        long-standing and aggressive policy of annexing surrounding vacant or
                                                        agricultural land. The city then extends water and sewage lines into the new
                                                        area so that the land can be developed, thereby encouraging urban growth.
                                                        The region's relatively flat topography aids the expansion."

                                                        Applying your metrics this would be about as wasteful as it gets with the
                                                        energy invested (EI) far outstripping the energy (ER) returned! And this
                                                        distortion happens in every way imaginable: poor use of land, wasted
                                                        investment of human and social capital, degradation of the environment,
                                                        dysfunctional neighborhood designs, excessive consumption, squandered
                                                        natural resources, gross systemic inefficiencies, separation of people from
                                                        that which sustains them, usurpation of the human dignity and self-respect
                                                        of those who are less influential, and concentrating of power and wealth in
                                                        the hands of a few.

                                                        Yet despite all these challenges, there are many people in this same
                                                        geographic area who are doing things that supposedly generate a much
                                                        healthier ER / EI ratio. For instance, the Clintonville Community Market is
                                                        celebrating its 35th anniversary this weekend
                                                        http://www.thisweeknews.com/?sec=clintonville
                                                        <http://www.thisweeknews.com/?sec=clintonville&story=sites/thisweeknews/0831
                                                        06/Clintonville/News/083106-News-216315.html>
                                                        &story=sites/thisweeknews/083106/Clintonville/News/083106-News-216315.html.
                                                        Clintonville is a middle-class neighborhood in north central Columbus. The
                                                        Clintonville Community Market is a co-op boasting of over 1,000 members,
                                                        most of them from the Clintonville neighborhood. They and many others in
                                                        the Columbus area constitute a die-hard lot dedicated to supporting farmer
                                                        markets, co-ops, community supported agriculture (CSA), and the
                                                        locally-produced organic foods industry in general. In fact, the
                                                        anniversary celebration this weekend will take place at Mayflag Farms,
                                                        http://www.rhoades.ws/~mainstream/news.htm, a certified organic producer who
                                                        participates in a nationwide organic food distribution network serving
                                                        local, regional, and national markets.

                                                        The purpose of relaying this information is not to be a shamelessly boastful
                                                        promoter of activities in my hometown, but rather to say a couple of things:
                                                        one, MANY of us have examples like this-mine is just a drop in the bucket,
                                                        and two, it is doubtful that the benefits we THINK we are getting from doing
                                                        food production, processing, packaging, distribution, retailing, and
                                                        consuming the way the good people of the Clintonville Community Market and
                                                        Mayflag Farms and the Clintonville neighborhood are not really that good.

                                                        I can imagine Tom applying his analytical skills at what it takes in the way
                                                        of energy invested to make the Clintonville Community Market "system" work
                                                        and comparing that to what is returned and.well.the answer may be
                                                        surprising. Furthermore, I can imagine the methodology Tom uses to
                                                        determine the ER / EI ratio for the Clintonville Community Market system
                                                        becoming standardized. Then, it can be applied consistently and uniformly
                                                        across the board in a multitude of situations where a comparative
                                                        understanding of the functioning of one system in relation to another is an
                                                        important factor in sound decision-making. Eventually, a formalized rating
                                                        system can be developed whereby various technologies, products, methods,
                                                        systems can be valued by how well they perform on an ER / EI ratio. Of
                                                        course, if this factor is not an important consideration other criteria will
                                                        be the deciding influences. However, if such a rating is a prime element in
                                                        reaching a good decision, knowing the soundness of the process applied, the
                                                        consistency of the methodology used, and the credibility of the factor
                                                        assigned will give the decision-maker confidence that the decision reached
                                                        is in keeping with personal values.

                                                        Let me close with another example. Earlier today I sent an article about
                                                        the Sisters of Notre Dame de Namur and their $250,000 solar-powered energy
                                                        and sanitation system to be installed in Fugar, Nigeria to Jeff Buderer and
                                                        Janet Feldman for their reference. Jeff responded with an excellent
                                                        reference to the Fantsuam Foundation and the use of bio-fuels in concert
                                                        with integrated waste management and farming systems (IWMFS) as a way to
                                                        provide the energy needed to generate electricity for applications like
                                                        those in Fugar. It seems that a combination of the two would be
                                                        particularly effective, but how would anyone know? Here's where the ER / EI
                                                        factor is very helpful. The system in Fugar based on solar energy has a
                                                        rating and the bio-fuel / IWMFS approach has a different rating, and a
                                                        combination of solar and bio-fuel / IWMFS has yet a different rating.
                                                        Depending on circumstances, personal / community values, and the
                                                        availability of choices a more informed decision is made. Such factors as
                                                        guidelines is a major step in getting more people to recognize that better
                                                        decisions can be made and that they can have greater influence. It's a
                                                        step!

                                                        I will stop here with a simple statement that the project I have in mind
                                                        establishes a rating system based on ER / EI ratios that is standardized,
                                                        viable in a wide variety of circumstances, and yields a factor that allows
                                                        people to have credible comparisons among diverse alternatives and make
                                                        informed decisions. Tom, it is my opinion that what you and others have
                                                        developed is the basis for such a project being possible. But that is only
                                                        one person's view. What do you think?

                                                        And the opinions and viewpoints of all readers are VERY WELCOME, PLEASE!

                                                        Thanks one and all for your ideas.

                                                        Best regards,

                                                        Steve B.

                                                        _____

                                                        From: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                        Of Tom Wayburn
                                                        Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 12:11 PM
                                                        To: cyfranogi
                                                        Cc: civilization@...
                                                        Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: You Get What You Measure...

                                                        Steve, Jon, et al.,

                                                        I am answering Steve's post, but my answer is for everyone.

                                                        Steve wrote: Clearly, there is application for your work in the realm of
                                                        community
                                                        currencies and open economy that underpin Cyfranogi. There are some
                                                        projects I am doing that could touch several groups within the Mincui Sodas
                                                        (MS) realm. Perhaps we could explore this openly in this forum or another
                                                        within MS to see what emerges. Would this be of interest to you?

                                                        Yes, I would be interested to help in any way I can.

                                                        I especially appreciate Steve's response to my papers, which are difficult
                                                        for many people to read. I suppose the papers are really not for such
                                                        people. I will try to write a brief conversational summary of what the
                                                        papers show:

                                                        First, I was interested to show how energy is related to money. One may
                                                        estimate the increase in the total energy budget (E) associated with a
                                                        diversified monetary investment by multiplying the capital, operating, and
                                                        other costs of the investment by the E/GDP ratio.

                                                        To eliminate the confusion regarding the ratio of energy returned to energy
                                                        invested (ER/EI), three separate ER/EI ratios are defined depending upon
                                                        what is included in the energy invested term. The one that gives the highest
                                                        (most optimistic) value includes only the direct energy costs of providing
                                                        the net energy to the economy and is independent of political economy. The
                                                        next highest includes the energy expenses of the workers in the energy
                                                        sector as well as all subsequent costs generated by these. It is still
                                                        independent of political economy provided the standard of living of the
                                                        workers is invariant. The most realistic ER/EI raio includes, in addition,
                                                        the energy costs of commerce plus the additional energy costs of
                                                        over-consumption by those associated with the energy sector who earn more
                                                        than workers.
                                                        To illustrate graphically the effect of lowering the ER/EI ratio due to
                                                        substituting a less efficient technology for the technology that preceded it
                                                        chronologically, I created a chart in which E approaches infinity as ER/EI
                                                        approaches 1.0 (from above, naturally). (Chart 2) This is important because
                                                        many alternative primary energy technologies like alcohol from biomass or
                                                        wind power have much lower ER/EI ratios than oil, coal, and gas.

                                                        The total energy budget and the amount of work performed in each sector to
                                                        maintain a constant standard of living are lowered by 16.7% (for the energy)
                                                        and 6.1% (for the labor) when an American-style market economy changes to a
                                                        market economy where everyone is paid the same. When the change is to a
                                                        planned economy with a commissar class that earns what managers earn in the
                                                        American-style market economy, energy is reduced by 46.9% and labor by
                                                        75.7%. When the change is to a planned economy where everyone is paid the
                                                        same, energy is reduced by 50.3% and labor by 77.0%. (Chart 1)

                                                        The reason that I know that in the real American economy the savings would
                                                        be even greater is that I have made the model economy much less wasteful
                                                        than the American economy even though it resembles it in many important
                                                        ways. Markets are unsustainable, then, for two reasons: (i) they use more
                                                        than half of the energy and renewable energy cannot supply more than
                                                        one-half of our current energy budget even with 100% market penetration or
                                                        no resistance from the market, and (ii) markets promote growth - actually
                                                        require growth as explained by David Delaney in Addendum II of
                                                        http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/On%20Capitalism2.html>
                                                        m.net/On%20Capitalism2.html .

                                                        That said, I want Jon Cousins to understand that, while my writing may be
                                                        opaque to him, a statement like "money is a way of showing the movement of
                                                        energy between people" probably means something completely different to him
                                                        than it does to me. I have to think, "Yes, multiply the cash flow by the
                                                        E/GDP ratio to get the amount of energy that is added to the energy budget.
                                                        Unfortunately, all cash flow increases the flow of energy because it adds to
                                                        the GDP, the total of all domestic monetary transactions; and, the energy
                                                        budget is the E/GDP ratio multiplied by the GDP. If Jon sold me something
                                                        that he would have consumed had he kept it and he doesn't spend the money or
                                                        put it in a bank, no harm is done; but, if Jon is selling widgets that he
                                                        has no intention to use himself and that will be replaced by more widgets to
                                                        fill up his inventory, then the deficit spending of precious resources is
                                                        exacerbated. Thus, the harmfulness of consumerism."

                                                        We all speak the same language, but we don't speak the same language.

                                                        Finally, I very much hope that none of us is planning a community (or a
                                                        community currency) based upon artificial economic contingency or that even
                                                        encourages artificial economic contingency. Artificial economic contingency
                                                        (AEC) is the circumstance where a person's economic well-being depends upon
                                                        what he does or what he doesn't do or who he is or who his parents were or
                                                        anything at all except acts of God. It is AEC that introduces greed and fear
                                                        into economic life; whereas, when a person has achieved the elevated
                                                        spiritual state many of you have spoken of, he should not care if he is
                                                        talented and productive and receives no more from the economy than lazy
                                                        untalented people who contribute nothing. As soon as a community permits the
                                                        introduction of AEC, a man with a wife and children will do ANYTHING to
                                                        increase their share of the community dividend, every incentive to increase
                                                        the community dividend beyond measure arises, and weaker people begin to
                                                        live under a cloak of fear that there will not be enough - and there usually
                                                        isn't as the strong appropriate everything to themselves.

                                                        So, perhaps sustainability is a spiritual problem after all. But, the
                                                        numbers better add up.

                                                        Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                                        http://dematerialis <http://dematerialism.net/> m.net/

                                                        P.S. Artificial economic contingency is what I mean by *materialism*, which
                                                        is the real-life Pandora's Box. Any scheme for unwinding materialism is what
                                                        I call *dematerialism*.

                                                        Steve Bosserman <stevebosserman@ <mailto:stevebosserman%40yahoo.com>
                                                        yahoo.com> wrote:

                                                        Hi,

                                                        The exchanges among Tom, Terry, Jon, John, and Jon over the past three days
                                                        are truly insightful, reassuring, and inspiring. Our current reality is
                                                        often not an easy place to have influence and make a difference; and maybe
                                                        that's what we are here to learn how to do better. Terry is spot-on-one
                                                        can't change other people and it is an exercise in futility trying.
                                                        However, regardless of where someone is, where they have been, where they
                                                        are going, or how they interpret the universe and their place in it, they
                                                        have energy: physical, intellectual, social, spiritual to name a few.

                                                        My joy comes from bringing these sources of energy-people-together and
                                                        seeing what happens. Almost instinctively, individuals and organizations
                                                        stick doggedly to the power structure that pays them and permit that
                                                        structure to dictate who they talk to, about what, when, and where.
                                                        Disrupting that stodgy conversational status quo frees up and redirects
                                                        energy; people get creative and innovative. They give! As Jon C stated,

                                                        "'The Medium is the Message', so "Be the change you want to see". Join a
                                                        Time Bank! Give energy directly by doing things for people, and allow them
                                                        to do things for you. The movement of energy is life. Give life directly,
                                                        try leaving out the middle 'Money' bit."

                                                        And if they experience the positive results of what happens when the
                                                        energies of many converge in greatness, well, there is no stopping it!

                                                        Having spent much of my career working with engineers I can say they quite
                                                        often have a penchant for facts and formulas. Not being an engineer, I can
                                                        certainly empathize with those who have difficulty making sense out of
                                                        numbers, spreadsheets, and mathematical expressions. What I have noticed,
                                                        though, are three things engineers like to have in place to believe they are
                                                        doing the right work and doing it effectively: a sensible, fact-based
                                                        problem statement, reasonably well-defined processes and tools to derive,
                                                        develop, and deploy potential solutions, and a set of relevant metrics that
                                                        indicate progress or lack thereof as potential solutions are tested and
                                                        applied. Providing these three elements is a powerful way to draw energy
                                                        from those VERY capable people who value them. And no doubt there are
                                                        others in the world besides engineers who feel better working within this
                                                        same context.

                                                        Tom, here is where your work is of enormous value. First, being an
                                                        engineer, your work speaks to other engineers and those who share similar
                                                        mental models: here is the problem; here is the framework around which
                                                        different approaches can be developed, tested, and applied; and here is a
                                                        way effectiveness can be measured. Second, you have a methodology that
                                                        assigns performance metrics to the behaviors of systems different than what
                                                        the dominant culture proffers today. As the old quality adage goes, "you
                                                        get what you measure." You have a way to measure what is wanted, not what
                                                        we have. How priceless! Third, the logic of what you have constructed
                                                        offers a bridge between what is currently dominant and what is emergent. In
                                                        other words it doesn't propose a set of guidelines and operating criteria so
                                                        arcane, ungrounded, and illogical that it forces a separation of
                                                        intellectual / spiritual sensibilities from purposeful and tenable action.
                                                        People can get engaged and cross over while not anticipating or planning for
                                                        it.

                                                        Clearly, there is application for your work in the realm of community
                                                        currencies and open economy that underpin Cyfranogi. There are some
                                                        projects I am doing that could touch several groups within the Mincui Sodas
                                                        (MS) realm. Perhaps we could explore this openly in this forum or another
                                                        within MS to see what emerges. Would this be of interest to you?

                                                        Looking forward to your response!

                                                        Best regards,

                                                        Steve B.

                                                        .

                                                        _____

                                                        From: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                                        [mailto:cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] On
                                                        Behalf
                                                        Of avalonfairshares
                                                        Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:10 AM
                                                        To: cyfranogi@yahoogrou <mailto:cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                                        Subject: RE: [cyfranogi] Fighting Scarcity with Cooperation

                                                        Hi Steve and Tom and Jon, (and everyone else),

                                                        Firstly, I feel in no way qualified to make any comments about these things,
                                                        and - having said that - here they are:

                                                        I have had a very short look at Tom's documents, and there seems to be a
                                                        huge gap between the 'science' and the message.

                                                        > I have been singularly unsuccessful in raising the level of
                                                        > understanding among the people who contribute to this forum even.
                                                        > Someone needs to teach me how to reach people.

                                                        Well, it is - unfortunately - hard to read Tom's documents.

                                                        I am genuinely interested in sustainable human beings interacting with an
                                                        abundant planet, in an abundant solar system. But "I don't have the Latin".

                                                        A very similar thing happens when I'm trying to read "No More Throw Away
                                                        People" by Edgar Cahn - its a book all about Time Banking and Co-production.
                                                        I work in Time Banking and Co-production, I am a big fan of Edgar, but ...
                                                        reading his book is like wading through treacle.

                                                        I would like things stated simply. When I'm talking with the people who
                                                        take part in the Avalon Fair Shares Time Bank, I say: "money is a way of
                                                        showing the movement of energy between people." They say "yes." I think it
                                                        is quite simple really.

                                                        The sun is shining. Energy comes from the sun, through plants, to us. We
                                                        exchange this energy when we do things for ourselves and others. Money is
                                                        just a formalised promise from our community that you'll get some energy
                                                        back.

                                                        All this other stuff - consumerism, capitalism, mass production, scarcity,
                                                        etc., etc. - its all a beautiful waste of time. We are the people who give
                                                        Money and the Market its power. Change what you invest 'your' energy in.

                                                        'The Medium is the Message', so "Be the change you want to see". Join a
                                                        Time Bank! Give energy directly by doing things for people, and allow them
                                                        to do things for you. The movement of energy is life. Give life directly,
                                                        try leaving out the middle 'Money' bit.

                                                        The universe is abundant, and what goes around comes around. The Sun is
                                                        still shining.

                                                        :-)

                                                        Jon Cousins
                                                        not - particularly - representing the views of Avalon Fair Shares
                                                        Glastonbury. UK

                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                        Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
                                                        Blog: http://dematerialism.blogspot.com/
                                                        Website: http://dematerialism.net/
                                                        Primary e-mail address regardless of return address on this post: twayburn@...
                                                        If the primary e-mail address is bouncing, please send to twayburn@... .



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