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Re: [tied] Scientific Nationalism

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  • Håkan Lindgren
    My 2 cents about the naturalness of nationalism... Isn t nationalism a quite recent thing, perhaps not older than the 19th century? If we are asked today Who
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 1, 2001
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      My 2 cents about the naturalness of nationalism...

      Isn't nationalism a quite recent thing, perhaps not older than the 19th century?

      If we are asked today "Who are you" we (are supposed to) answer "I'm a Swede", "I'm an Englishman" etc, but if you asked someone the same question a couple of hundred years back he would answer "I'm the son of so-and-so, from the village of so-and-so." His ideas of roots and identity had nothing to do with the idea of nations.

      In my mind, nationalism is connected to 19th-century industrialism. Industrialism broke up the villages and a lot of old traditions; people needed a new basis for their identity, and the basis that was given them was the idea of the nation. There was a lot of nationalistic work being done during the 19th century, as if people were trying to grow into their new nationalistic clothes, from the composing of pompous national hymns to the collecting of folk tales, which previously hadn't been worthy of any serious interest.

      Please do not pick examples from animals if you want to justify nationalism or any other human behaviour. The variety of animal behaviour is very large - no matter what (human) behaviour you wish to defend, you won't have any trouble finding a fitting animal example. Wolves live in packs led by a male, so if you want to argue that patriarchy is natural, use wolves. On the other hand, some bovine animals live in herds led by old females, so if you want to show that matriarchy is natural, use them. Herrings swim about in large schools without the need for any leader at all. And lemmings, so I'm told, prefer living alone and don't give a crap about other lemmings. Now, which of these four examples is most natural? Which one of them should our society look like?

      Hakan
    • tgpedersen@hotmail.com
      ... 19th century? ... answer I m a Swede , I m an Englishman etc, but if you asked someone the same question a couple of hundred years back he would answer
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 1, 2001
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        --- In cybalist@y..., Håkan Lindgren <h5@p...> wrote:
        > My 2 cents about the naturalness of nationalism...
        >
        > Isn't nationalism a quite recent thing, perhaps not older than the
        19th century?
        >
        > If we are asked today "Who are you" we (are supposed to)
        answer "I'm a Swede", "I'm an Englishman" etc, but if you asked
        someone the same question a couple of hundred years back he would
        answer "I'm the son of so-and-so, from the village of so-and-so." His
        ideas of roots and identity had nothing to do with the idea of
        nations.
        >
        > In my mind, nationalism is connected to 19th-century industrialism.
        Industrialism broke up the villages and a lot of old traditions;
        people needed a new basis for their identity, and the basis that was
        given them was the idea of the nation. There was a lot of
        nationalistic work being done during the 19th century, as if people
        were trying to grow into their new nationalistic clothes, from the
        composing of pompous national hymns to the collecting of folk tales,
        which previously hadn't been worthy of any serious interest.
        >
        > Hakan

        19th century nationalism is connected with the spread of railroads
        and the dispersion of wealth by it and the new professions it
        engendered: Station Master, Post Master, G.P.'s combined with the old
        ones: Priest and School Teacher. Those were the ones that got
        together Saturdays to play whist. They were trying to find out: We
        are (French, German, Swedish, Danish), what do we have in common? In
        other words, the nation and its extent became defined by the national
        railroad system. Even today, national standards in railroads bedevil
        the attempted European cooperation. Britain eg. has a loading profile
        so narrow that only purpose-built waggons cross the Channel. Still,
        if ask an English train-spotter (or other expert) why they don't do
        something about it, they get furious or change the subject. Why this
        is so, I don't know. Ancient hard-wired ideas of hunting rights in
        humans?

        Sorry for the digression.

        Torsten


        Torsten
      • jpisc98357@aol.com
        In a message dated 9/1/01 2:04:45 AM Central Daylight Time, h5@post.utfors.se ... Dear Hakan, If you want to start explaining that women rule society by making
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 1, 2001
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          In a message dated 9/1/01 2:04:45 AM Central Daylight Time, h5@...
          writes:
          On the other hand, some bovine animals live in herds led by old
          females, so if you want to show that matriarchy is natural, use them


          Dear Hakan,

             If you want to start explaining that women rule society by making
          analogies to old cows, I suggest you try the arguments out with your wife and
          mother before introducing that part of your analysis into the discussion.  
          Please suggest another, safer,  animal analogy to matriarchal rule. You risk
          a Bobbit.

          Best regards,  John Piscopo
          http://www.johnpiscoposwords.com
          PO Box 137
          Western Springs, IL 60558-0137
          (708)246-7111
        • Håkan Lindgren
          You risk a Bobbit. Best regards, John Piscopo You gotta take risks, y know.......... :o) Hakan Lindgren
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 1, 2001
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            You risk a Bobbit.

            Best regards,  John Piscopo
             
            You gotta take risks, y'know..........  :o)
             
            Hakan  Lindgren
          • jpisc98357@aol.com
            In a message dated 9/1/01 2:21:43 PM Central Daylight Time, h5@post.utfors.se ... Dear Friends, For any of you who do not know, Lorena Bobbit cut off her
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 1, 2001
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              In a message dated 9/1/01 2:21:43 PM Central Daylight Time, h5@...
              writes:
              You risk a Bobbit. Best regards,  John Piscopo
              You gotta take risks, y'know..........  :o)  Hakan  Lindgren


              Dear Friends,

                 For any of you who do not know, Lorena Bobbit cut off her husband's penis
              while he was sleeping, took a drive and threw it out the window.  The police
              were called and a search for the missing wife led to a highway search for the
              missing penis, which was found and reattached successfully.

                The word bobbit entered the American English lexicon as to bobbit, defined
              as to cut off the penis of your (Husband, boyfriend, lover, etc). Examples in
              usage:

                 She gave him a bobbit.

                 She threatened to bobbit him.

                 After he made love to her against his wishes, she bobbited him.

                 There are no known homosexual usages, yet.

              Note, this is not the same as castration which refers to the removal of the
              testicles.

                  Happily, bobbiting did not become a new American fad.  A television
              program, Law & Order, featured a story line within a larger story where a
              woman bobbited her husband because he was fooling around with other women.  
              He died of a heart attack on the way to the hospital.  Her lawyer argued
              marital rape until the news came of his death, then she pleaded guilty to
              murder in a state of guilt.

                 Mr. Bobbit was divorced and remarried, not with a great deal of happiness
              according to the last news stories I rememberd.

                 Lorena served a short prison term and was released on probation.  Nobody
              has heard of any man wanting to date her.

              Best regards,  John Piscopo
              http://www.johnpiscoposwords.com
              PO Box 137
              Western Springs, IL 60558-0137
              (708)246-7111
            • Glen Gordon
              ... Enter Glen s showstopping split personality Desirée the Deadly wearing a stunning full-length emerald sequence gown tight against curvacious hips
              Message 6 of 6 , Sep 2, 2001
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                The man who suspiciously refers to himself as John Piscopo:
                > She gave him a bobbit.
                >
                > She threatened to bobbit him.
                >
                > After he made love to her against his wishes, she bobbited him.
                >
                > There are no known homosexual usages, yet.

                Enter Glen's showstopping split personality "Desir�e the Deadly"
                wearing a stunning full-length emerald sequence gown tight against
                curvacious hips (They're knee pads, darling), carefully applied
                eyeshadow, blush & lipgloss, with hair you could just die for.
                Julie Andrews sings the Sound of Music in the background. "Did
                somebody say homosexual? It's time for my two-cents. Move over
                Richard Simmons..."

                "Bobbit" is in homo-vocab, alright. However, I'd imagine a low
                incidence of gay male bobbiting due to a well known phenomena called
                "sympathy pains". Why, just the thought of bobitting someone's
                penis would make me feel very sad about losing my own penis which
                has been a very good friend to me ever since I moistened my first
                diapers. We've been through the thick and the thin, haven't we, yes
                we have. On the other hand, you know what they say "There's no fury
                like a drag queen scorned."

                As for those lesbians... Well, I could see those nasty dyke gangs
                kidnapping one of my helpless friends and bobitting them just so
                that they could use it as part of a leather attachment... Oh my god!
                What am I saying! It must be the drugs! Well, carry on.

                -------------------------------------------------
                gLeNny gEe
                ...wEbDeVEr gOne bEsErK!

                home: http://glen_gordon.tripod.com
                email: glengordon01@...
                -------------------------------------------------



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