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[cybalist] Catalan-Castellano

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  • Gene Kalutskiy
    ... I view them as two different languages - one s common name in English usage is Spanish, the other s - Catalonian. There s no question about which one of
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 4, 2000
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      gerry reinhart-waller <walu-@...> wrote:
      > And I absolutely am not interested in instigating a flame war -- but
      > from what you say then can I conclude that YOU view Castillian to mean
      > Spanish and that this flame war would be between Castillian (Spanish)
      > and Catalan? Why do you view Castillian to be more Spanish than
      > Catalan? Do folks from Catalan find themselves to be less Spanish?
      > Somehow, I doubt it.

      I view them as two different languages - one's common name in English
      usage is Spanish, the other's - Catalonian. There's no question about
      which one of them is "more" or "less" Spanish, because they are not 2
      dialects of the same language, they are two quite different languages
      (no nitpicking, please, sure there are transitional dialects, but the
      fact is, Standard Catalonian and Standard Spanish easily qualify as 2
      distinct languages). When people around the world say "Spanish" they
      mean what we referred to as "Castilian" earlier in this thread. Now,
      Castillian is not the word that people _use_ when they refer to the
      language that people from Mexico, Argentina or Colombia speak.
      Castillian is just the most standard of dialects of the Spanish
      language as defined by the Royal Spanish Academy.

      I'm only explaining this to show that I don't consider either one
      superior or inferior to the other. And neither one is a vulgar version
      of the other - they are both different developments of the Vulgar
      Latin.

      I still find the way you put your questions potentially offensive and I
      will leave the rest of it to be answered by other members of this forum.

      GK
    • MIQUEL CABAL GUARRO
      Gerry, I don t know if you are serious about this question: differences between Catalan and Spanish are uncountable. Catalan phonetics, morphology and syntax
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 5, 2000
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                Gerry, I don't know if you are serious about this question: differences between Catalan and Spanish are uncountable. Catalan phonetics, morphology and syntax were well defined and standardized a long time ago. We have, as Piotr already said, classical literature from the XV century, and old texts from X-XI centuries.
                 I don't know what makes a non tonal language more melodious than others.
                 I see that you have no idea about the political situation in Spain: the State is divided into 18 autonomous regions. Some have a special status, being amongst them the Basque Country (Euskal Herria, in Basque) and Catalonia (Catalunya, in Catalan). Catalan language is not considered more vulgar any longer. It used to be this way in the XVIII cent. and during Franco's dictature, Catalan was persecuted and its use was prohibited (I am not being partial at this point, Piotr). In Balearic Islands Catalan is suffering a regression, and so does in Valencia. The fact is that the autonomous government of Valencia, following political reasons, has literally invented an origin for Valencian, in which it has nothing to do with Catalan.
                 I don't really understand the question about dialects in Madrid: it is a city!!
                 About dialects in Spain, we should divide them as following:
          • North-East: Navarro-Aragonés (which should be considered as a separate language, but it lacks of  literature and of standarization) (aka Fabla).
          • North: Astur-Leonés (somehow transitional separate language that is living a rebirth, with a modern grammar and dictionaries, school teaching, etc.) (aka Bable).
          • South-West: Extremeño (a transitional dialect between southern Spanish dialects and Portuguese) (aka Estremeñu).
          • South: Andaluz (with several subdialects).
          • South-East: Murciano (transitional dialect between Andaluz and La Mancha dialects).
          • South-Center: Castilian or Manchego dialects (from Castilla La Mancha, like Don Quijote. One of them is the dialect spoken in Madrid).
                  As seen, Spanish has no historical boundaries with French: Catalan, Navarro-Aragonés and Basque are settled in the southern face of the Pyrenees.

                 I will tell you, as my own personal opinion, that I do not feel myself Spanish. I have grown in Catalan, been tought in Catalan, I think in Catalan and I live in Catalonia. So why should I consider myself Spanish??

      • Gerry Reinhart-Waller
        MIQUEL writes: Gerry, I don t know if you are serious about this question: differences between Catalan and Spanish are uncountable. Catalan phonetics,
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 5, 2000
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          MIQUEL writes: Gerry, I don't know if you are serious about this
          question: differences between Catalan and Spanish are
          uncountable. Catalan phonetics, morphology and syntax were
          well defined and standardized a long time ago. We have, as
          Piotr already said, classical literature from the XV
          century, and old texts from X-XI centuries.
          I don't know what makes a non tonal language more
          melodious than others.

          Gerry: Actually I am serious since I don't know anything about Spain
          and its linguistics (or internal politics). Am I correct in assuming
          that Catalans see NO reason for an affiliation with Spain? What about
          Catalan economics, religion, educational system, health system etc. Is
          there no reason by which to remain as part of Spain?

          I see that you have no idea about the political
          situation in Spain: the State is divided into 18 autonomous
          regions. Some have a special status, being amongst them the
          Basque Country (Euskal Herria, in Basque) and Catalonia
          (Catalunya, in Catalan).

          Gerry here: I know a little bit about the Basque and nothing about
          Catalonia. Why is it that both Basque and Catalonia have special status
          in Spain?

          Catalan language is not considered
          more vulgar any longer. It used to be this way in the XVIII
          cent. and during Franco's dictature, Catalan was persecuted
          and its use was prohibited (I am not being partial at this
          point, Piotr). In Balearic Islands Catalan is suffering a
          regression, and so does in Valencia. The fact is that the
          autonomous government of Valencia, following political
          reasons, has literally invented an origin for Valencian, in
          which it has nothing to do with Catalan.
          I don't really understand the question about
          dialects in Madrid: it is a city!!

          Gerry: Your above comment is most interesting! Yes, Madrid is a city,
          and a very lovely one at that, I might add. And am I correct in
          assuming that the geographic areas you speak about are more rural than
          urban? Possibly they are. And what happens in rural areas is that the
          folks there always think they're "just as good as the rest of the folks,
          especially those in the city". I know that's true here in the US so I'm
          assuming it might also be true in Spain.

          About dialects in Spain, we should divide them as
          following:

          o North-East: Navarro-Aragonés (which should be
          considered as a separate language, but it lacks
          of literature and of standarization) (aka Fabla).

          Gerry: But if a "language" has no separate literature and no
          standardization, then why do you think it needs to be considered a
          separate language?

          o North: Astur-Leonés (somehow transitional
          separate language that is living a rebirth, with a
          modern grammar and dictionaries, school teaching,
          etc.) (aka Bable).
          o South-West: Extremeño (a transitional dialect
          between southern Spanish dialects and Portuguese)
          (aka Estremeñu).
          o South: Andaluz (with several subdialects).
          o South-East: Murciano (transitional dialect between
          Andaluz and La Mancha dialects).
          o South-Center: Castilian or Manchego dialects (from
          Castilla La Mancha, like Don Quijote. One of them
          is the dialect spoken in Madrid).

          Gerry: WOW! So many different dialects. Does each dialectical group
          wish autonomy? At the rate this decentralization is going on, shortly
          every individual in every family will want separate autonomy and
          separate privileges etc.

          As seen, Spanish has no historical boundaries with
          French: Catalan, Navarro-Aragonés and Basque are settled in
          the southern face of the Pyrenees.

          Gerry: I'm sure you have the internet available in Spain. Can't this
          new technology attempt to rectify this immense problem. Seems to me
          that when people begin "chatting" they should find more similarities
          than differences. But then, who am I to know not living in Spain.

          I will tell you, as my own personal opinion, that I
          do not feel myself Spanish. I have grown in Catalan, been
          tought in Catalan, I think in Catalan and I live in
          Catalonia. So why should I consider myself Spanish??

          Gerry: I know exactly how you feel. I live in California now but I
          have absolutely nothing in common with these folks. We are different
          socially, politically, economically, religiously, educationally etc.
          However, I do relate to the United States and to Massachusetts in
          particular. And I'd much rather be living back east. Now, from what
          you've told me, you like living right where you are. So can't you
          consider yourself BOTH Catalan and Spanish? I know you like being
          Catalan, why is it you don't wish to be Spanish?

          Always curious,
          Gerry

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          Gerald Reinhart
          Independent Scholar
          (650) 321-7378
          waluk@...
          http://www.alekseevmanuscript.com
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