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RE: Re: Is Basque IE?

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  • oalexandre
    [Tavi] In other words, Paleo-Basque/Iberian /r/ wasn t part of a strong/weak pair and it s reflected as a trill in modern Basque and Romance. However, there re
    Message 1 of 61 , Sep 18, 2013
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      [Tavi]
      In other words,
      Paleo-Basque/Iberian /r/ wasn't part of a strong/weak pair and it's reflected as a trill in modern Basque and Romance. However, there're some reare cases of Basque /r/ arising from gemination of /R/, as in larre 'meadow; heath; uncultivated land, desert', a loanword from Celtic (Gaulish) *landa: 'heath, moor' > *lanna > larra > larre.

      [DGK]
      But _landa_ 'campo, pieza de terreno' occurs widely in Basque (Bisc., Guip., Aezc., Lab., High & Low Nav., Ronc.) and appears to continue Gaul. *landa: directly. 
      >
      Actually, this is Gallo-Latin, because the word is found in several Romance languages.

      > Moreover a Late Gaul. *lanna would have given Bq. *lana, since Latin _anno:na_ gives Bq. _anoa_. 
      >
      But -nn- > -n- happened in Vasco-Romance, not Paleo-Basque. There're several examples of an alternation
      n/r such as egun, egur- 'day', jaun, jaur- 'sir' which suggest denasalization could happen in Paleo-Basque.

      As I said before, Paleo-Basque was far from being a homogeneous language, and it's imperative to identify the varieties involved. Mitxelena's "Proto-Basque" (he used the term "Pre-Basque") is more a kind of Vasco-Romance creole spoken in the Visigothic period than the actual Paleo-Basque, of a deeper chronology (Late Iron Age).

      > If _larra-_, _larre_ is borrowed from Gaulish, it probably continues a collective *la:rja: (or *larja: by Osthoff's shortening) 'flat area' from *la:ro- 'flat surface, floor', PIE *pl.h2-ró- or *pléh2-ro-.  (Latin _pla:nus_ can represent *pl.h2-nó- and provides no evidence for a heteroclite, pace Matasovic', only for different suffixes.)
      >
      I formerly thought larre was a straightforward derivation of

      *la:ro-, with /R/ adapted as /r/, but now I know this didn't happen in IE loanwords.
    • oalexandre
      [Tavi] However, there re some reare cases of Basque /r/ arising from gemination of /R/, as in larre meadow; heath; uncultivated land, desert , a loanword from
      Message 61 of 61 , Oct 21, 2013
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        [Tavi]
        However, there're some reare cases of Basque /r/ arising from gemination of /R/, as in larre 'meadow; heath; uncultivated land, desert', a loanword from Celtic (Gaulish) *landa: 'heath, moor' > *lanna > larra > larre.
        >
        That is, the shift /nn/ > /RR/ happened in Paleo-Basque.

        [DGK]
        But _landa_ 'campo, pieza de terreno' occurs widely in Basque (Bisc., Guip., Aezc., Lab., High & Low Nav., Ronc.) and appears to continue Gaul. *landa: directly. 
        >
        I think this is from a different Celtic word *landa: '(enclosed) field, plot of land', homonymous to Gaulish *landa: 'heath', Cornish lan, Breton lann 'heath, steppe', which would require a Celtic protoform *Flanda: (cfr. Gascon branda, brana 'heath'). Unfortunately, Celtic specialists conflated both.

        > Moreover a Late Gaul. *lanna would have given Bq. *lana, since Latin _anno:na_ gives Bq. _anoa_. 
        >
        Actually, nn > n isn't a Paleo-Basque but a Vasco-Romance development shared by Gascon, where we find lana.
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