Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Lithuanian and Latvian words for water deriving from different grades?

Expand Messages
  • r_brunner
    Wiktionary gives vanduo as modern Lithuanian for water , and udens as the corresponding Latvian word. In both etymologies the same Proto-Balto-Slavic root
    Message 1 of 6 , May 21, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Wiktionary gives 'vanduo' as modern Lithuanian for 'water', and 'udens' as the corresponding Latvian word. In both etymologies the same Proto-Balto-Slavic root of *wondor is given.

      However, at least to me as an etymology hobbyist, the start "ud" of the Latvian word 'udens' suspiciously looks like the zero-grade form *ud- of the PIE root *wed-

      Could it be that the original *wondor was still ablauting in some way and had a zero-grade form, and then Lithuanian kept the o-grade form, whereas Latvian kept the zero-grade form?

      If yes, how this zero-grade form could have looked like? If no, how do you arrive at udens from *wondor?
    • Singh - Jat
      Good points. ________________________________ From: r_brunner To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 11:06 AM
      Message 2 of 6 , May 21, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Good points.

        From: r_brunner <rbrunner@...>
        To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 11:06 AM
        Subject: [tied] Lithuanian and Latvian words for water deriving from different grades?
         
        Wiktionary gives 'vanduo' as modern Lithuanian for 'water', and 'udens' as the corresponding Latvian word. In both etymologies the same Proto-Balto-Slavic root of *wondor is given.

        However, at least to me as an etymology hobbyist, the start "ud" of the Latvian word 'udens' suspiciously looks like the zero-grade form *ud- of the PIE root *wed-

        Could it be that the original *wondor was still ablauting in some way and had a zero-grade form, and then Lithuanian kept the o-grade form, whereas Latvian kept the zero-grade form?

        If yes, how this zero-grade form could have looked like? If no, how do you arrive at udens from *wondor?

      • dgkilday57
        ... The Latvian word has a circumflex over the first vowel, which is therefore long and cannot represent zero-grade PIE *ud-. It escapes me how anyone posing
        Message 3 of 6 , May 23, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "r_brunner" <rbrunner@...> wrote:
          >
          > Wiktionary gives 'vanduo' as modern Lithuanian for 'water', and 'udens' as the corresponding Latvian word. In both etymologies the same Proto-Balto-Slavic root of *wondor is given.
          >
          > However, at least to me as an etymology hobbyist, the start "ud" of the Latvian word 'udens' suspiciously looks like the zero-grade form *ud- of the PIE root *wed-
          >
          > Could it be that the original *wondor was still ablauting in some way and had a zero-grade form, and then Lithuanian kept the o-grade form, whereas Latvian kept the zero-grade form?
          >
          > If yes, how this zero-grade form could have looked like? If no, how do you arrive at udens from *wondor?

          The Latvian word has a circumflex over the first vowel, which is therefore long and cannot represent zero-grade PIE *ud-. It escapes me how anyone posing as a lexicographer can neglect diacritics. The Lithuanian word also has a circumflex over the last vowel. It points to a protoform with nom. sg. *wondo:r, obl. sg. *wonden-, but other BS lgs. do not have the same inflection. For starters see Pokorny, IEW 79-80, and references.

          DGK
        • r_brunner
          ... I don t think anyone is posing as a lexicographer. Wiktionary properly displays the diacritics you mention, but I did not copy them here, because I was
          Message 4 of 6 , May 23, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "r_brunner" <rbrunner@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Wiktionary gives 'vanduo' as modern Lithuanian for 'water', and 'udens' as the corresponding Latvian word. In both etymologies the same Proto-Balto-Slavic root of *wondor is given.
            > >
            > > [...]
            >
            > The Latvian word has a circumflex over the first vowel, which is therefore long and cannot represent zero-grade PIE *ud-. It escapes me how anyone posing as a lexicographer can neglect diacritics. The Lithuanian word also has a circumflex over the last vowel. It points to a protoform with nom. sg. *wondo:r, obl. sg. *wonden-, but other BS lgs. do not have the same inflection. For starters see Pokorny, IEW 79-80, and references.
            >
            > DGK
            >

            I don't think anyone is posing as a lexicographer. Wiktionary properly displays the diacritics you mention, but I did not copy them here, because I was afraid the messaging system will mangle them anyway, and I did not know the conventions how to properly "transliterate" them to pure 7-bit ASCII to be on the safe side. (I tried to find a "how to" manual regarding this for newbie Cybalists like me, but was not successful...)

            For you it may be perfectly clear that vowel length, indicated by that macron (not circumflex) on the u of the Latvian word, completely rules out derivation from *ud-, but both things are interesting news to this humble beginner - thanks!
          • Sergejus Tarasovas
            ... Well, formally, it can - the broken tone (ûdèns) is exactly what one would expect to develop before an Indo-European media (*d) by Winter s Law in a word
            Message 5 of 6 , May 24, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
              > The Latvian word has a circumflex over the first vowel, which is therefore long and cannot represent zero-grade PIE *ud-.

              Well, formally, it can - the broken tone (ûdèns) is exactly what one would expect to develop before an Indo-European media (*d) by Winter's Law in a word of a mobile accentual paradigm. (Had it belonged to an immobile one, one would expect the sustained tone thus still a long vowel).

              Sergei
            • dgkilday57
              ... I stand corrected, and I had no business criticizing Wiktionary for dropping diacritics in the first place. DGK
              Message 6 of 6 , May 30, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Sergejus Tarasovas" <sergejus.tarasovas@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
                > > The Latvian word has a circumflex over the first vowel, which is therefore long and cannot represent zero-grade PIE *ud-.
                >
                > Well, formally, it can - the broken tone (ûdèns) is exactly what one would expect to develop before an Indo-European media (*d) by Winter's Law in a word of a mobile accentual paradigm. (Had it belonged to an immobile one, one would expect the sustained tone thus still a long vowel).

                I stand corrected, and I had no business criticizing Wiktionary for dropping diacritics in the first place.

                DGK
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.