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[cybalist] grad-hrad

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  • Gene Kalutskiy
    It s more of a South-North split in this case. And it s not really a h in Ukrainian, more of a gh . They do have a separate h or, rather, [x], that sounds
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 29, 1999
      It's more of a South-North split in this case. And it's not really a
      "h" in Ukrainian, more of a "gh". They do have a separate "h" or,
      rather, [x], that sounds quite different. Oh, and I wouldn't really
      call it a "consonant shift", cause it's nothing like the Germanic
      consonant shift, but Petr would be able to find a better term for it.

      GK

      PS: And no wonder you could understand Ukrainian after studying Polish
      - Slavic languages are still very close to each other, kind of like
      Spanish and Portuguese. ;)

      >>>>>
      The example that puzzled me arose with Slavonic languages. I notice a
      consonant shift from g to h happening (or perhaps the reverse - I don't
      know
      which came first).

      Example (one of many): Russian/Polish grad / gorod and Czech / Ukrainian
      hrad / horod

      What puzzles me is the way this seems to cut across the standard
      linguistic
      groupings, with Russian / Ukrainian in an Eastern group and Polish/Czech
      classified as Western. It would seem more logical to me to have a "G
      group"
      and an "H" group (although I have a vague worry this would split Sorbian
      down the middle).<<<<
    • Marc Verhaegen
      A shift like g gh h 0 is very frequent, in a lot of languages. This is very clear in Dutch & its dialects. We have no plosive /g/ in standard Dutch (Hollandic,
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 30, 1999
        A shift like g>gh>h>0 is very frequent, in a lot of languages. This is very
        clear in Dutch & its dialects. We have no plosive /g/ in standard Dutch
        (Hollandic, the dialect of Amsterdam etc.), but pronounce a fricative /gh/
        when we say, eg, "goud" (Engl.-Germ."gold"). In Holland this "g" is hard
        (guttural) and voiceless. In the South (Belgium) "g" is mostly soft (velar)
        and voiced. In the West-Flemish dialect (Bruges etc.) they only say /h/ when
        they pronounce "g"; and they don't pronounce "h", eg, they pronounce "hout"
        (Engl. "wood", Germ."Holz") without /h/ (=0). My wife's dialect belong to
        the same dialect group as mine (Brabantic: Brussels, Antwerp etc.), but she
        doesn't pronounce "h" (which rarely causes misunderstandings...). So we have
        a gradation in the pronunciation of continental Germanic "h" and "g":
        W-Flemish<W-Brabantic<E-Brab.<Dutch<German. Obviously the W-Flemish
        pronunciation of "g" as /h/ could only be possible if the "h" had already
        lost its pronunciation (not only in W-Flemish, but also in the western
        dialects of Brabantic), IOW, there must be an intermediate dialect where "g"
        still has its normal pronunctiation /gh/ and "h" is not pronounced (ie, my
        wife's dialect).

        IMO there's nothing puzzling in the fact that different dialects (eg, Czech
        & Ukrainian) independently can undergo the transition g>gh>h. For the same
        reason the distinction centum/satem IMO doesn't say much about affiliations
        of languages (k>ch>sh>s>0 is a "normal" decay process, seen in a lot of
        languages, just as g>gh>h>0). An interesting question is whether these
        "decay" processes are more frequent in peripheral dialects: W-Flemish &
        Czech lie at the border of the Dutch-German & the Slavic group. IMO such
        "shifts" are less likely to occur in more central dialects because there's
        constant correction by neighbouring dialects.

        I think g>gh>h is +-comparable to the Germanic consonant shift (parallel
        softening of p>f, t>th, k>h) --perhaps at a time when proto-Germanic was a
        rather isolated dialect at the borders of PIE. The second consonantal shift
        in German (water>Wasser etc.) probably originated far south, at the borders
        of the German dialects and then spread north (and still are spreading north,
        after more than thousand years!, as people from Low Germany are adopting
        standard German). Possibly such shifts are due to substrate influences of
        neighbouring unintelligible languages (long-standing bilinguism, eg, the
        non-pronunciation of "h" in French & W-Flemish).

        Marc

        +++++++++


        >It's more of a South-North split in this case. And it's not really a "h" in
        Ukrainian, more of a "gh". They do have a separate "h" or, rather, [x], that
        sounds quite different. Oh, and I wouldn't really call it a "consonant
        shift", cause it's nothing like the Germanic consonant shift, but Petr would
        be able to find a better term for it. GK PS: And no wonder you
        could understand Ukrainian after studying Polish - Slavic languages are
        still very close to each other, kind of like Spanish and Portuguese. ;)

        >The example that puzzled me arose with Slavonic languages. I notice a
        consonant shift from g to h happening (or perhaps the reverse - I don't know
        which came first). Example (one of many): Russian/Polish grad / gorod and
        Czech / Ukrainian hrad / horod. What puzzles me is the way this seems
        to cut across the standard linguistic groupings, with Russian / Ukrainian in
        an Eastern group and Polish/Czech classified as Western. It would seem more
        logical to me to have a "G group" and an "H" group (although I have a vague
        worry this would split Sorbian down the middle).
      • Mark Odegard
        gard I would have eventually posted something on this root, but its sooner rather than later. *ghórdhos (*ghórtos ~ *ghórdhos) is how EIEC has it (under
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 30, 1999
          gard I would have eventually posted something on this root, but its sooner rather than later.

          *ghórdhos (*ghórtos ~ *ghórdhos) is how EIEC has it (under "Fence").  The semantic space is better expressed by enclosure, enclosed place/space. Reflexes appear in well-nigh every known branch of IE. It is indisputably PIE.
           

          • Celtic: Old Irish: gort, 'standing crop'; Welsh garth, 'pen, fold' (also English 'garth', the landscaped cloister courtyard of a convent or monastery).
          • Latin: hortus, 'garden' (thence 'horticulture'), cohors, cohort,  'enclosure, yard, cattle pen; unit of the Roman Legion (presumably from the 'yard' where they exercised in early republican days).
          • Greek: Xórtos, 'enclosed space, feeding yard'. AHD3 conjectures khoros, 'dancing ground', thence Terpsichore, chorus, etc.
          • Germanic: Old Norse garðar  (plural), 'fence, hedge, court'; Old English geard, 'enclosure, yard' (thence 'yard'); ortgeard, 'orchard' (literally, 'fruit-yard', thence 'orchard'). Old High German garto 'garden' (thence, via French, English 'garden'). Gothic gards, 'house, household, court' (said to be from garda,  'household'). The Norse gods live at Asgard. The Miðgarð Serpent only needs to be mentioned here. A garðar  encloses Hel.
          • Balto-Slavic: Lithuanian gardas, 'fence, fold, pen'. Old Church Slavonic gradu, 'town, city'. Russian górod, 'town, city' (Russian has, by metathesis obtained both -grad and -gorod in city names).
          • Albanian: gardh, 'fence, enclosure'.
          • Phrygian: gordum, 'city' (as with 'Gordium' and the Gordian knot).
          • Anatolian: Hittite gurtas, citadel'. Luvian gurta-, 'citadel'.
          • Indo-Iranian: Avestan g@r@ða-, 'cave housing demons'. The English renditions vary, but the place Cyrus the Great came from is Parsagarda, Pasargadae, etc: 'Persian place'. Old Indic ghra (from grdha-), 'house, habitation, home'. EIEC gives an impossible to transcribe Old Indic compound that compares to the above 'cave housing demons', 'house of clay', where one goes after death.
          • Tocharian B: kerciyi (plural), 'palace'.
          The list of words English has from this root is extensive, as the above listing indicates;  'girt' and 'girdle' should also be mentioned, and especially the verb 'to gird', which is apparently the only verb attested in the group. It's suggested that palatalized forms are found in Old Prussian sardis, 'fence'; Lithuanian zardis, 'corral', zardas, 'drying rack (for grain)'.

          The sense is an enclosed space of some sort, one always associated with human endeavors, and from there a number of extensions, everything from a fortified settlement (Novgorod, Leningrad) to a garden, a yard, and orchards, to kindergartens and cattle pens. It's a fence, a wall, a palisade, and the area girded by such things.

          My own last name does not readily translate from Norwegian into English. Norwegian øde seems equivalent to German öde  and means 'empty, vacant, abandoned, deserted, desolate'. Odegard means 'abandoned or derelict farm'.

          Humm. Horticultural Mars of the Abandoned Farm. The god moved to the city and joined the corhorts of the legions.

          Mark Odegard.

        • Gerry Reinhart-Waller
          Mark aka Horticultural Mars of the Abandoned Farm, I liked your enclosed area as you traipsed through the IE language family. QUESTION: How is the sense of
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 30, 1999
            Mark aka Horticultural Mars of the Abandoned Farm,
            I liked your enclosed area as you traipsed through the IE language
            family. QUESTION: How is the sense of this "enclosure" represented in
            the non-PIE languages?

            Wish I had a name that is as related as is yours. Waller is a salt
            seller and Gerry (Gerald) is mighty with a sword. Guess I never had a
            farm to abandon for the city.

            Gerry
          • Gene Kalutskiy
            ... shift , cause it s nothing like the Germanic consonant shift f, t th, k h)
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 30, 1999
              I wrote:
              >>>Oh, and I wouldn't really call it a "consonant
              shift", cause it's nothing like the Germanic consonant shift<<<

              Marc replied:
              >>>I think g>gh>h is +-comparable to the Germanic consonant shift
              (parallel softening of p>f, t>th, k>h)<<<

              What I meant to say above is that it was nothing on the _scale_ of the
              germanic consonant shift, it's much more trivial. And I'm pretty sure
              this g>gh>h shift happened not too long ago, probably some time during
              the 1st millenium AD.

              GK
            • Piotr Gasiorowski
              ... From: Gene Kalutskiy To: cybalist@eGroups.com Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 6:01 AM Subject: [cybalist] Re: grad-hrad ... shift , cause it s nothing like
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 31, 1999
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 6:01 AM
                Subject: [cybalist] Re: grad-hrad

                Gene wrote:
                >>>Oh, and I wouldn't really call it a "consonant
                shift", cause it's nothing like the Germanic consonant shift<<<
                
                Marc replied:
                >>>I think g>gh>h is +-comparable to the Germanic consonant shift
                (parallel softening of p>f, t>th, k>h)<<<
                
                Gene: What I meant to say above is that it was nothing on the _scale_ of the
                germanic consonant shift, it's much more trivial. And I'm pretty sure
                this g>gh>h shift happened not too long ago, probably some time during
                the 1st millenium AD.
                

                It isn' really comparable to Grimm's Law, as it only affected one phoneme -- a shift is a systemic change. In the "hrad" languages the voiced velar stop must have changed into a voiced fricative first (a common type of lenition a.k.a. "weakening"), and then the articulation of the fricative became further weakened by losing its "oral constriction" component. The pronunciation I'm familiar with can be described as a partially voiced glottal fricative -- the kind of sound that may result from the intervocalic voicing of English /h/ in behind or perhaps. It's not a plain aspirate. Some Poles use this sound in the spelling-pronunciation of loanwords (also from Czech or Ukrainian) spelt with h, as opposed to the sound /x/ (= German or Scots ch) used when the spelling is ch. Most Poles, however, use /x/ in both cases, and the historical stop *g remains /g/ in Polish.
                 
                The fricative pronunciation is an areal innovation which spread when the ancestor of the modern Slavic languages were already spoken more or less in their present locations. This is why its range cuts across "genetic" boundaries. It must also be borne in mind that the traditional division of Slavic into three subbranches has more to do with various secondary regroupings and new areal configurations (especially after the Magyar conquest of Pannonia) than with the earliest splits; you should not imagine than Proto-Slavic split neatly into the Proto-Eastern, Proto-Western and Proto-Southern languages. The Eastern "subbranch" is more valid, genetically speaking, than the other two, but areal influence has always been powerful throughout the Slavic world. In the Western Ukraine Polish and Ukrainian coexisted for many centuries and bilingualism was very common especially among the Polonised gentry of the area. The mutual influence of both languages has produced a considerable degree of non-genetic similarity or convergence. I sometimes find extremely non-standard varieties of Polish harder to understand than standard Ukrainian. Still, my knowledge of Russian is quite good, which certainly makes any form of East Slavic more familiar to me.
                 
              • Piotr Gasiorowski
                ... From: Gerry Reinhart-Waller To: cybalist@egroups.com Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 5:37 AM Subject: [cybalist] Re: grad-hrad Mark aka Horticultural Mars
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 31, 1999
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 5:37 AM
                  Subject: [cybalist] Re: grad-hrad

                  Mark aka Horticultural Mars of the Abandoned Farm,
                  I liked your enclosed area as you traipsed through the IE language
                  family. QUESTION: How is the sense of this "enclosure" represented in
                  the non-PIE languages?
                  
                  Wish I had a name that is as related as is yours.  Waller is a salt
                  seller and Gerry (Gerald) is mighty with a sword.  Guess I never had a
                  farm to abandon for the city.
                  
                  Gerry

                  Correction, Gerry. It was a spear, and not a sword.
                  Piotr

                • Gerry Reinhart-Waller
                  ... From: Gerry Reinhart-Waller To: cybalist@egroups.com Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 5:37 AM Subject: [cybalist] Re: grad-hrad Mark aka Horticultural Mars
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 31, 1999
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Gerry Reinhart-Waller
                    To: cybalist@egroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 5:37 AM
                    Subject: [cybalist] Re: grad-hrad


                    Mark aka Horticultural Mars of the Abandoned Farm,
                    I liked your enclosed area as you traipsed through the IE language
                    family. QUESTION: How is the sense of this "enclosure" represented in
                    the non-PIE languages?

                    Wish I had a name that is as related as is yours. Waller is a salt
                    seller and Gerry (Gerald) is mighty with a sword. Guess I never had a
                    farm to abandon for the city.

                    Gerry
                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Correction, Gerry. It was a spear, and not a sword.
                    Piotr


                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Gerry here:
                    Thanks Piotr. Yes, it is a spear. Developed a few millenia before the
                    sword. Thanks for more history. And thanks for adding the wilderness to
                    the city. QUESTION, for Piotr or anyone: Are there archaeological
                    instances when agriculture and the city existed as one?

                    Gerry
                  • Ivanovas/Milatos
                    Hello in the new millenium, ... I m not sure I understand you correctly, Gerry, but I believe the coincidence of agriculture and town-life (we wouldn t
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 1, 2000
                      Hello in the new millenium,
                      Gerry asked:
                      >Are there archaeological instances when agriculture and the city existed as
                      >one?
                      I'm not sure I understand you correctly, Gerry, but I believe the
                      'coincidence' of agriculture and 'town-life' (we wouldn't call those 'towns'
                      towns nowadays, so let's call it a -large- settlement) you're looking for
                      occurred e.g. in Neolithic Anatolia. You'll probably be amazed about the
                      beauty of the frescoes and the power of the art from Catal Hoeyuek (now
                      western Turkey), where houses were built as glued one to the other (much
                      like modern Mediterranean villages), but didn't have doors (they entered
                      them from the roofs) and a large percentage of the houses seem to have been
                      sacral buildings, depicting bull's horns, mighty vultures and hunting
                      scenes, but there is also a wall filled with the imprints of the (a?) human
                      hand.
                      The excavator who published about it was James Mellaart. It's worth having a
                      look at. Cf. also http://goethe.ira.uka.de/catal/ where some of the ultra
                      modern excavation methods are supposed to be seen and a CD can be ordered (I
                      haven't managed to open that page yet, but as I know the methods from books,
                      it's certainly worth while trying!)
                      Best wishes
                      Sabine
                    • Gerry Reinhart-Waller
                      And Happy New Millennium to you too, Sabine. Thanks for the info. about Mellaart s new business venture. And those frescoes he discovered at Catal Huyek so
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jan 1, 2000
                        And Happy New Millennium to you too, Sabine.
                        Thanks for the info. about Mellaart's new business venture. And those
                        frescoes he discovered at Catal Huyek so long ago yet didn't publish
                        until recently are certainly a mystery aren't they? I wonder if Ian
                        Hodder has discovered the same frescoes. If in fact the frescoes can be
                        documented, then Mellaart must be a REAL business tycoon.

                        What types of agriculture was conducted at Catal Huyak? And were the
                        workers prisoners (living in their cells) when they weren't in the
                        fields or were they simply religious followers of the "chief"? And if
                        my memory serves me correctly, one of the "cells" was much more
                        elaborate than the others.

                        Please tell me more. Have you visited the site?
                        Gerry

                        Ivanovas/Milatos wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello in the new millenium,
                        > Gerry asked:
                        > >Are there archaeological instances when agriculture and the city existed as
                        > >one?
                        > I'm not sure I understand you correctly, Gerry, but I believe the
                        > 'coincidence' of agriculture and 'town-life' (we wouldn't call those 'towns'
                        > towns nowadays, so let's call it a -large- settlement) you're looking for
                        > occurred e.g. in Neolithic Anatolia. You'll probably be amazed about the
                        > beauty of the frescoes and the power of the art from Catal Hoeyuek (now
                        > western Turkey), where houses were built as glued one to the other (much
                        > like modern Mediterranean villages), but didn't have doors (they entered
                        > them from the roofs) and a large percentage of the houses seem to have been
                        > sacral buildings, depicting bull's horns, mighty vultures and hunting
                        > scenes, but there is also a wall filled with the imprints of the (a?) human
                        > hand.
                        > The excavator who published about it was James Mellaart. It's worth having a
                        > look at. Cf. also http://goethe.ira.uka.de/catal/ where some of the ultra
                        > modern excavation methods are supposed to be seen and a CD can be ordered (I
                        > haven't managed to open that page yet, but as I know the methods from books,
                        > it's certainly worth while trying!)
                        > Best wishes
                        > Sabine
                        >
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