Re: [tied] Re: A PIE common source for Indian lokapalas?
- Muspellsheim = Southern World of Fire
Niflheim = Northern World of Ice
Midgard = The world in the center
Svartalfheim = Subterranean world of dwarves/dark elves
Alfheim = Aerial world of (white) elves
Utgard = Land of Giants (Jotunn), Mountains that surrond the world beyond the sea; sometimes an Eastern land
Vanaheim = sometimes a Western land, sometimes a heavenly place.
Asgard = Heaven
Hel = Hell, Realm of Death.
An ultramarine habitat for Giants looks similar to submarine Fomoires (Ireland) and submarine/underwater/underworld Rakshasas/Danavas.
Yggdrasill had three roots: in Utgard, Asgard and Niflheim, each one linked to a well, respectively Mimisbrunnr, Urdarsbrunn and Hvergelmir, perhaps remants of original three worlds (cf. Hesiodic Pontos, Ouranos and Tartaros?)
De: Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@...>
Enviadas: Terça-feira, 16 de Abril de 2013 8:46
Assunto: [tied] Re: A PIE common source for Indian lokapalas?
--- In email@example.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:
> So, the three lokapalas would be Indra (Heaven), Kubera (Earth) and
> Yama (Underworld)? Or Varuna (Heaven), Indra (Atmosphere+Earth) and
> Yama (Underworld)?
*If* the original lokapalas were three, and they were associated with the three lokas (worlds), Varuna and Yama must have been two of them since they appear in all of the early lists of lokapalas. The third one may have been Soma rather than Indra; at any ratee, not Kubera, who was not a world-protector and not even a god at first -- indeed, he was originally a yaksha or genius of nature.
> The system of Norse Nine Worlds could be extension of and older
> three-worlds too, with Asgard-Midgard-Hel as its axis.
What is the structure of the Norse nine-world system ?
> De: Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@...>
> Para: firstname.lastname@example.org
> Enviadas: Segunda-feira, 15 de Abril de 2013 8:21
> Assunto: [tied] Re: A PIE common source for Indian lokapalas?
> --- In email@example.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@> wrote:
> > I was thinking about Lokapalas, the 4 Guardians of Directions
> > (= Dikpalas), and I caught an interesting, perhaps fortuitous,
> > similarity to the group of main Norse gods. Could this represent
> > somehow a common IE heritage? My point is not to state Norse
> > deities as guardians of directions, but perhaps forming a
> > particular tetrad.
> In the Vedic and epic literature the term dikpÃ¢la (`guardians/protectors of the cardinal points') does not occur. Its earliest attestation in Sanskrit is very late (in Medieval period). The term actually used for the guardians of the directions in the epics, where different group of four gods (see lists at http://tinyurl.com/cbaz4l3 ) are first explicitly mentioned as exerting this function, is lokapÃ¢la, which means `protectors of the worlds'. As E.W. Hopkins notes, the title of the quartet is curious. The worlds (Skt. loka-) are normally envisaged as a triad arranged vertically (the earth and the worlds below and above), while the cardinal points (or directions), Skt. dis'-, are four and are arranged horizontally. As there are three words, one would expect there to be three lokapÃ¢la, if the protectors bore any relation to the three worlds. Hopkins, thus, hypothesizes that originally there may have been three real world-protectors. Therefore, a triad,
> not a tetrad.
> Kind regards,
> > Varuna (West) = terrible god =Â Odinn = terrible god
> > Indra (East) = storm god = Thorr = storm god
> > Kubera (North) = god of wealth, lord of aerial spirits (yakshas), owner of aerial chariot = Freyr = god of fertility, lord of elves (lives in Alfheim), owner of aerial ship
> > Yama (South) = King of the Dead, death God, first king, first man (substituting his brother Manu?) = perhaps Heimdall-Rig, perhaps Balder, perhaps benevolous side of Loki.
> > I'd like to read your comments.
> > JS Lopes