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Re: [tied] Portuguese, Spanish bode "buck"

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  • dgkilday57
    ... I have no examples, but it would surprise me if a centum language showed different outcomes for *-tk^- and *-tk-. A more serious objection is that if *-ko-
    Message 1 of 75 , Apr 1, 2013
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      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
      >
      > 2013/3/29, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:
      > >
      > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
      > > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
      > >>
      > (...)
      > >> For beccus I had already proposed, following the suggestions by
      > >> Delamarre 2003: 70 and 80, a root *bek- (or maybe *gWek-) 'sting',
      > >> unless *bekko-s < *gWet-ko-s (cf. *gWet- 'bulge', Pokorny 1959: 481).
      > >
      > > The obvious problem with *gWet-ko-s is that *-tk- should have undergone
      > > metathesis outside Anatolian and Tocharian, as in Celtic for 'bear', unless
      > > we presume that *-ko- remained productively in use with bare roots.
      > > Connecting 'beak' with 'bee' seems rather fanciful, even if a beak is pointy
      > > like a sting.
      > >
      > > DGK
      >
      > *Bhr.:
      > Are there instances of Celtic metathesis of non-palatal
      > *-tk-sequences? In Reiner Lipp's monumental volumes I can't detect
      > anyone, but maybe it's simply due to the combined effect of my lack of
      > time and its lack of a Wortindex...

      I have no examples, but it would surprise me if a centum language showed different outcomes for *-tk^- and *-tk-.

      A more serious objection is that if *-ko- was productive with bare /e/-grade roots, there should be no shortage of *-ko-formations with such roots having different auslauts, not just those in *-k- or other stops expected to assimilate to a suffixal *k-.

      Matasovic' refers Celt. *balko- to PIE *bel-, which I do not follow. It seems to me that he implicitly assumes a laryngeal root-extension (and I have no problem with *-h1 or *-h2) and zero-grade. Of course, *bHelh1/2- or *gWelh1/2- would work equally well. But for your desired /e/-grade we must manufacture a root *bh2/4el-, *bHh2/4el-, or *gWh2/4el-.

      > With *bek I really meant PIE */b/ rather than the bee-root *bhei-

      Yes, I thought so. Meyer-Luebke operates with Gaul. *becos 'Biene' (REW 1014). I have no objection to PIE *b- (but it is rare, and I suspect that it became phonesthemically associated with nasty noises and other undesirable stuff; a very few non-nasty roots like *bel- were grandfathered in).

      Anyhow, your theory of Celtic tenues geminatae needs to be checked for plausibility against the frequency of parallel formations from roots which do not produce geminates with the same suffixes.

      DGK
    • dgkilday57
      ... If the original sense was oaken , it could continue *gWl.h2-ko- from an archaic root-noun *gWelh2-s, *gWl.h2- oak otherwise attested in words for
      Message 75 of 75 , May 14, 2013
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
        >
        > 2013/4/3 dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
        > > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > 2013/4/2, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@>:
        > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
        > > > > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
        > > > >>
        > > > >> 2013/3/29, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@>:
        > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
        > > > >> > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
        > > > >> >>
        > > > >> (...)
        > > > >> >> For beccus I had already proposed, following the suggestions by
        > > > >> >> Delamarre 2003: 70 and 80, a root *bek- (or maybe *gWek-) 'sting',
        > > > >> >> unless *bekko-s < *gWet-ko-s (cf. *gWet- 'bulge', Pokorny 1959:
        > > 481).
        > > > >> >
        > > (...)
        > > > > DGK:
        > > > > A more serious objection is that if *-ko- was productive with bare
        > > /e/-grade
        > > > > roots, there should be no shortage of *-ko-formations with such roots
        > > having
        > > > > different auslauts, not just those in *-k- or other stops expected to
        > > > > assimilate to a suffixal *k-.
        > > > >
        > > > > Matasovic' refers Celt. *balko- to PIE *bel-, which I do not follow. It
        > > > > seems to me that he implicitly assumes a laryngeal root-extension (and
        > > I
        > > > > have no problem with *-h1 or *-h2) and zero-grade. Of course,
        > > *bHelh1/2- or
        > > > > *gWelh1/2- would work equally well. But for your desired /e/-grade we
        > > must
        > > > > manufacture a root *bh2/4el-, *bHh2/4el-, or *gWh2/4el-.
        > > >
        > > > *Bhr.: You know I prefer long /o/ grade with Osthoff's shortening
        > >
        > > Yes, but your only argument in favor of /o:/-grade in such words was that
        > > I could not disprove it.
        > >
        > *Bhr.: it's the received view as well; anyway, can You explain *balko-
        > with a better (please note "better") reconstruction?

        If the original sense was 'oaken', it could continue *gWl.h2-ko- from an archaic root-noun *gWelh2-s, *gWl.h2- 'oak' otherwise attested in words for 'acorn', Grk. _balanos_, Lat. _glans_ (poss. P-Italic Blandusia), etc. (in Pokorny under *gWel-(3), IEW 472-3).

        > > > >
        > > > > (...)
        > > > > Anyhow, your theory of Celtic tenues geminatae needs to be checked for
        > > > > plausibility against the frequency of parallel formations from roots
        > > which
        > > > > do not produce geminates with the same suffixes.
        > > > >
        > > > > DGK
        > > > >
        > > > *Bhr.: Handbooks give Russian poperek 'transversal' (Old Church
        > > > Slavonic pre:kU) < *per-ko-s and Greek-Indic isogloss *dheh1-ko-,
        > > > -kah2 'receptacle' > Old Indic dha:k'a-s, Greek th'e:ke: (unless You
        > > > prefer a lengthened grade *dhe:h1-ko-!).
        > >
        > > The Slavic words could just as well continue *per-kWo-s.
        > >
        >
        > *Bhr.: this implies You admit that *-kWo- suffixes can be added to e-grade
        > roots and that only *-ko- cannot, doesn't it?

        No, I am only showing that the example is controversial.

        > > Latin _facio:_, _fe:ci:_, _factum_ shows that *dHeh1- took a
        > > /k/-extension, and the Greek-Indic noun could just as well be built on
        > > *dHeh1k-.
        > >
        > > *Bhr.: is there a sequence where a suffix *-ko- can be recognized as such
        > instead of either a possible root-enlargement or part of a suffix
        > conglomerate?

        Yes, provided the stem is substantival, e.g. Gallo-Latin _ambicus_ 'kind of fish' (Pol. Silv., ms. _ambions_ corrected by Mommsen) against Gaul. _ambis_ 'river' (Non.).

        > >
        > > (...)
        > > > An instance beyond any doubt is represented by Old Icelandic brj'oskr
        > > > 'cartilage', Swiss German briesch 'colostrum', maybe Albanian breshkE
        > > > f. 'tortoise' (unless one accepts */ou/ > /e/ instead of /a/ in
        > > > non-metaphonetic environments) from root *bhreus- 1 'swell' (Pokorny
        > > > 1959: 170-171).
        > >
        > > Koebler cites only a strong nt. _brj'osk_ 'Knorpel', Gmc. *breu(t)skam.
        > >
        >
        > *Bhr.: right, my fault in copying; I'm very sorry and beg Your pardon. On
        > the other side, */t/ is by no way assured

        The */t/ is only a phonetic possibility which K. included.

        > > The root could be the simplex *bHreu- 'spriessen, schwellen' (Pok. 169),
        > > making the IE formation *bHreu-skom, not *bHreus-kom.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > Verb stem **brūsana-n *suggests indeed root **bhreus-*

        Yes, *bHreu- with an /s/-extension, but *bHreu-skom needs no extension.

        > >
        > > > I think one single uncontroversial case is sufficient to prove that a
        > > > R(e)-ko- scheme is possible (...)
        > > (...)
        > > As for uncontroversial examples of *R(e)-ko-, there may be some, but I had
        > > in mind a statistical analysis of such purported forms within Celtic.
        > > Something may be possible but highly improbable.
        > >
        > > *Bhr.: if You have checked the whole material, please let us know it; if
        > You don't, "highly improbable" only expresses an impression of Yours

        True. When time permits I must check the whole material.

        > >
        > > > Note also that this case has been made for *gWet-ko-s, which I added
        > > > as a merely prudential alternative to *bek-n'o-s with Stokes-Zupitza's
        > > > Law; this means that if I weren't be able to justify R(e)-ko- my
        > > > reconstruction *bek-n'o-s would become relatively stronger
        > >
        > > Assuming you could justify *bek- in the first place, as well as Zupitza's
        > > formulation of Stokes' Law from a sufficient number of other examples.
        > >
        > > DGK
        > >
        >
        >
        > *Bhr.: I can't understand how You explain preserved sequences of media and
        > nasal in Celtic if Your "MacBain's Law" predicts *medias geminatas *if the
        > accent was before the cluster and Your version of Stokes' Law *tenues
        > geminatas *if the accent was after the cluster

        Set.-roots and living /n/-suffixation complicate matters. But obviously I must check the whole material before making any pronouncements. And I must finish my CURRENT projects first, namely a revised theory of secondary labialism in Gmc. (i.e. the 'wolf' problem) and a convincing backdating of Kluge's Law to Old Western IE.

        DGK
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