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Re: [tied] Re: Portuguese, Spanish bode "buck"

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  • Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
    ... *Bhr.: of course I did - what I can t understand is why do You think it is less convoluted than a correspondence *dn : dd ... *Bhr.: please explain that
    Message 1 of 75 , Mar 26, 2013
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      2013/3/26, Tavi <oalexandre@...>:
      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
      > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> *Bhr.: Let's take German Butze at its face value: /tts/ (< Germanic
      >> */tt/) in order to explain Ibero-Romance /d/ < either /dd/ or lenited
      >> /t/; now, everyone realizes that the distance between Ibero-Romance
      >> /d/ and German /tts/ isn't greater than the one between Ibero-Romance
      >> /d/ and *bHe:mtts^y: if we add that Castilian-Portuguese /o/ (neither
      >> from /au/ nor from short /o/) is closer to German /u/ than to */e:/,
      >> we necessarily conclude that, however "convoluted" an etymology from
      >> PIE *bhud'nis can be, it's less so than one from *bHe:mtts^y
      >>
      >> > I'm afraid yours isn't a fair comparison, because you apparently
      > forgot
      >> > the IE and the Altaic words with /o, u/ I quoted before.
      >> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/71115
      >>
      >> *Bhr.: If You mean "Turkic *bugu(ra) 'male deer; camel stallion',
      >> Mongolian *bojir 'male elk', Tungusic *pegu(le)-/*pogu(le)- 'young of
      >> elk, elk' (...) besides Indo-Iranian and Armenian *bug�-,
      > Germanic and
      >> Celtic *bukko-, (...) Italic becco 'male goat' and Basque behi 'cow'",
      >> then You are making Your etymology still more "phonetically
      >> convoluted", provided You can an explanation, if all, for the velars
      >> as apposed to Ibero-Romance /d/
      >>
      > I suppose you read my explanation about NEC lateral affricates and their
      > differengt mappings, didn't you?

      *Bhr.: of course I did - what I can't understand is why do You think
      it is less "convoluted" than a correspondence *dn : dd

      >
      >> > Anyway, you demonstrated your proposed IE etymology and this word
      >> > arehomonymous in German.
      >>
      >> *Bhr.: therefore semantically no more misfit
      >>
      >> > Not really, because your etymology works for the wrong word, i.e.
      >> > Bavarian butz, not German Butz 'little lamb'.
      >>
      >> *Bhr.: They are the same word
      >>
      > I don't think so.

      *Bhr.: please explain that

      >
      >> > Besides Spanish boto/a 'blunt; clumsy, akward' there's also Occitan
      >> > (Langedocian) boda 'paquet rebondi; gros ventre; grosseur; tumeur'.
      >>
      >> *Bhr.: very good and a plausible etymology indeed, but do You really
      >> believe that 'gros ventre' is closer than 'Lämmchen' to 'buck'?
      >>
      > No. They're two different etymologies. One refers to 'thick, clumsy,
      > etc.' and the other to a domestic animal, 'lamb, male goat, ox'.

      *Bhr.: I've mentioned three lexemes, You write "they're two different
      etymologies"; which two?
    • dgkilday57
      ... If the original sense was oaken , it could continue *gWl.h2-ko- from an archaic root-noun *gWelh2-s, *gWl.h2- oak otherwise attested in words for
      Message 75 of 75 , May 14, 2013
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
        >
        > 2013/4/3 dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
        > > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > 2013/4/2, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@>:
        > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
        > > > > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
        > > > >>
        > > > >> 2013/3/29, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@>:
        > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
        > > > >> > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
        > > > >> >>
        > > > >> (...)
        > > > >> >> For beccus I had already proposed, following the suggestions by
        > > > >> >> Delamarre 2003: 70 and 80, a root *bek- (or maybe *gWek-) 'sting',
        > > > >> >> unless *bekko-s < *gWet-ko-s (cf. *gWet- 'bulge', Pokorny 1959:
        > > 481).
        > > > >> >
        > > (...)
        > > > > DGK:
        > > > > A more serious objection is that if *-ko- was productive with bare
        > > /e/-grade
        > > > > roots, there should be no shortage of *-ko-formations with such roots
        > > having
        > > > > different auslauts, not just those in *-k- or other stops expected to
        > > > > assimilate to a suffixal *k-.
        > > > >
        > > > > Matasovic' refers Celt. *balko- to PIE *bel-, which I do not follow. It
        > > > > seems to me that he implicitly assumes a laryngeal root-extension (and
        > > I
        > > > > have no problem with *-h1 or *-h2) and zero-grade. Of course,
        > > *bHelh1/2- or
        > > > > *gWelh1/2- would work equally well. But for your desired /e/-grade we
        > > must
        > > > > manufacture a root *bh2/4el-, *bHh2/4el-, or *gWh2/4el-.
        > > >
        > > > *Bhr.: You know I prefer long /o/ grade with Osthoff's shortening
        > >
        > > Yes, but your only argument in favor of /o:/-grade in such words was that
        > > I could not disprove it.
        > >
        > *Bhr.: it's the received view as well; anyway, can You explain *balko-
        > with a better (please note "better") reconstruction?

        If the original sense was 'oaken', it could continue *gWl.h2-ko- from an archaic root-noun *gWelh2-s, *gWl.h2- 'oak' otherwise attested in words for 'acorn', Grk. _balanos_, Lat. _glans_ (poss. P-Italic Blandusia), etc. (in Pokorny under *gWel-(3), IEW 472-3).

        > > > >
        > > > > (...)
        > > > > Anyhow, your theory of Celtic tenues geminatae needs to be checked for
        > > > > plausibility against the frequency of parallel formations from roots
        > > which
        > > > > do not produce geminates with the same suffixes.
        > > > >
        > > > > DGK
        > > > >
        > > > *Bhr.: Handbooks give Russian poperek 'transversal' (Old Church
        > > > Slavonic pre:kU) < *per-ko-s and Greek-Indic isogloss *dheh1-ko-,
        > > > -kah2 'receptacle' > Old Indic dha:k'a-s, Greek th'e:ke: (unless You
        > > > prefer a lengthened grade *dhe:h1-ko-!).
        > >
        > > The Slavic words could just as well continue *per-kWo-s.
        > >
        >
        > *Bhr.: this implies You admit that *-kWo- suffixes can be added to e-grade
        > roots and that only *-ko- cannot, doesn't it?

        No, I am only showing that the example is controversial.

        > > Latin _facio:_, _fe:ci:_, _factum_ shows that *dHeh1- took a
        > > /k/-extension, and the Greek-Indic noun could just as well be built on
        > > *dHeh1k-.
        > >
        > > *Bhr.: is there a sequence where a suffix *-ko- can be recognized as such
        > instead of either a possible root-enlargement or part of a suffix
        > conglomerate?

        Yes, provided the stem is substantival, e.g. Gallo-Latin _ambicus_ 'kind of fish' (Pol. Silv., ms. _ambions_ corrected by Mommsen) against Gaul. _ambis_ 'river' (Non.).

        > >
        > > (...)
        > > > An instance beyond any doubt is represented by Old Icelandic brj'oskr
        > > > 'cartilage', Swiss German briesch 'colostrum', maybe Albanian breshkE
        > > > f. 'tortoise' (unless one accepts */ou/ > /e/ instead of /a/ in
        > > > non-metaphonetic environments) from root *bhreus- 1 'swell' (Pokorny
        > > > 1959: 170-171).
        > >
        > > Koebler cites only a strong nt. _brj'osk_ 'Knorpel', Gmc. *breu(t)skam.
        > >
        >
        > *Bhr.: right, my fault in copying; I'm very sorry and beg Your pardon. On
        > the other side, */t/ is by no way assured

        The */t/ is only a phonetic possibility which K. included.

        > > The root could be the simplex *bHreu- 'spriessen, schwellen' (Pok. 169),
        > > making the IE formation *bHreu-skom, not *bHreus-kom.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > Verb stem **brūsana-n *suggests indeed root **bhreus-*

        Yes, *bHreu- with an /s/-extension, but *bHreu-skom needs no extension.

        > >
        > > > I think one single uncontroversial case is sufficient to prove that a
        > > > R(e)-ko- scheme is possible (...)
        > > (...)
        > > As for uncontroversial examples of *R(e)-ko-, there may be some, but I had
        > > in mind a statistical analysis of such purported forms within Celtic.
        > > Something may be possible but highly improbable.
        > >
        > > *Bhr.: if You have checked the whole material, please let us know it; if
        > You don't, "highly improbable" only expresses an impression of Yours

        True. When time permits I must check the whole material.

        > >
        > > > Note also that this case has been made for *gWet-ko-s, which I added
        > > > as a merely prudential alternative to *bek-n'o-s with Stokes-Zupitza's
        > > > Law; this means that if I weren't be able to justify R(e)-ko- my
        > > > reconstruction *bek-n'o-s would become relatively stronger
        > >
        > > Assuming you could justify *bek- in the first place, as well as Zupitza's
        > > formulation of Stokes' Law from a sufficient number of other examples.
        > >
        > > DGK
        > >
        >
        >
        > *Bhr.: I can't understand how You explain preserved sequences of media and
        > nasal in Celtic if Your "MacBain's Law" predicts *medias geminatas *if the
        > accent was before the cluster and Your version of Stokes' Law *tenues
        > geminatas *if the accent was after the cluster

        Set.-roots and living /n/-suffixation complicate matters. But obviously I must check the whole material before making any pronouncements. And I must finish my CURRENT projects first, namely a revised theory of secondary labialism in Gmc. (i.e. the 'wolf' problem) and a convincing backdating of Kluge's Law to Old Western IE.

        DGK
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