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Re: [tied] Re: Gorgyra and Tartaros - g/t dialectal Pre-Greek

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  • Joao S. Lopes
    What would the possible meanings for Tartaros? It could mean bottom , underworld , dark, shadowy, misty place , cold or boggy or moldy place , land of the
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 19 5:13 PM
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      What would the possible meanings for Tartaros? It could mean "bottom", "underworld", "dark, shadowy, misty place", "cold or boggy or moldy place", "land of the dead", "West", "Night", "Evening, Dusk", "prision". Tartaros in Theogony may be an entity (akin to Khaos, Gaia and Eros), or just a place : "the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus, and dim Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth". I think Theogony's scheme is nicely symmetric:
      Gaia = The flat earth
      Ouranos = Celestial dome
      Aither = Bright atmosphere
      Pontos = Primordial Sea (= Vedic Milky Sea ?)
      Erebos = Underworld Darkness
      Tartaros = The Bottom, opposite to Sky
      Okeanos = The Snake-River around the Earth ( = Midgard Serpent? Vasuki?)

      JS Lopes




      De: Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...>
      Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
      Enviadas: Terça-feira, 19 de Março de 2013 19:56
      Assunto: Re: [tied] Re: Gorgyra and Tartaros - g/t dialectal Pre-Greek

       
      I still prefer *ger-g- 'turn' (Pokorny 1959: 385) for gorgyra (which
      means "inferior part of a tile" as well) < *gorg-urah2/4 (same root of
      gargathos) and *terh2- 'pass through' (Pokorny 1074-1075) for Tartaros
      < *tr-trh2-o-s (same root of tra:n'e:s)

      2013/3/19, Joao S. <josimo70@...>:
      > I was going to ask this, but I googled it and found my own question from two
      > years ago. Any comments?
      >
      > JS Lopes
      >
      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> Considering tha apparent similarity bewteen Tartaros "hell, subterraneous
      >>
      >> prison" and gorgyra "subterraneous chamber, prison", could we try to
      >> postulate a
      >> corresponde G-T in two dialectal forms of Pre-Greek?
      >> Note that Gorgyra/Tartaros pair could be analogous to Gigas/Titan.
      >> gorgyra < *gargura < g^arg^ura < *j^arj^ura- ~ *c^arc^aro- > *t^art^aro >
      >>
      >> tartaros
      >>
      >>
      >> JS Lopes
      >>
      >
      >
      >


    • Stewart Felker
      I don t have a whole lot to add, other than that Beekes has, for gorgura/korchurea, underground/subterranean drain . Could this possibly be connected to
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 19 7:44 PM
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        I don't have a whole lot to add, other than that Beekes has, for gorgura/korchurea, 'underground/subterranean drain'. Could this possibly be connected to borboros 'mire, filth' (cf. also Hittite mirmirrus)? For borboros, Beekes writes that a "connection with Arm. kork 'dirt', which require a reconstruction *gʷorgʷ(or)o- remains very doubtful" (227).

        However...
        there's also
        korkorugeō 'to fill with noise, storm, trouble' (korkorugmos, 'rumbling in the belly') and borboruzō 'to rumble' - perhap showing the same type of interchange. Even further, Beekes notes that borboruzō is "[c]onnected with borboros, though partly different in meaning (developments like these are not infrequently found in onomatopoeic words). In borborizei, the two meanings come together."


        Stewart Felker
        University of Memphis


        On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...> wrote:
         

        What would the possible meanings for Tartaros? It could mean "bottom", "underworld", "dark, shadowy, misty place", "cold or boggy or moldy place", "land of the dead", "West", "Night", "Evening, Dusk", "prision". Tartaros in Theogony may be an entity (akin to Khaos, Gaia and Eros), or just a place : "the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus, and dim Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth". I think Theogony's scheme is nicely symmetric:
        Gaia = The flat earth
        Ouranos = Celestial dome
        Aither = Bright atmosphere
        Pontos = Primordial Sea (= Vedic Milky Sea ?)
        Erebos = Underworld Darkness
        Tartaros = The Bottom, opposite to Sky
        Okeanos = The Snake-River around the Earth ( = Midgard Serpent? Vasuki?)

        JS Lopes




        De: Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...>
        Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
        Enviadas: Terça-feira, 19 de Março de 2013 19:56
        Assunto: Re: [tied] Re: Gorgyra and Tartaros - g/t dialectal Pre-Greek

         
        I still prefer *ger-g- 'turn' (Pokorny 1959: 385) for gorgyra (which
        means "inferior part of a tile" as well) < *gorg-urah2/4 (same root of
        gargathos) and *terh2- 'pass through' (Pokorny 1074-1075) for Tartaros
        < *tr-trh2-o-s (same root of tra:n'e:s)

        2013/3/19, Joao S. <josimo70@...>:
        > I was going to ask this, but I googled it and found my own question from two
        > years ago. Any comments?
        >
        > JS Lopes
        >
        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> Considering tha apparent similarity bewteen Tartaros "hell, subterraneous
        >>
        >> prison" and gorgyra "subterraneous chamber, prison", could we try to
        >> postulate a
        >> corresponde G-T in two dialectal forms of Pre-Greek?
        >> Note that Gorgyra/Tartaros pair could be analogous to Gigas/Titan.
        >> gorgyra < *gargura < g^arg^ura < *j^arj^ura- ~ *c^arc^aro- > *t^art^aro >
        >>
        >> tartaros
        >>
        >>
        >> JS Lopes
        >>
        >
        >
        >



      • Joao S. Lopes
        korkorugmos remembers onomatopoeic verbs like Portuguese gargalhar to laugh loudly and gargarejar to gargle JS Lopes ________________________________ De:
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 31 6:20 PM
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          korkorugmos remembers onomatopoeic verbs like Portuguese gargalhar "to laugh loudly" and gargarejar "to gargle"

          JS Lopes



          De: Stewart Felker <stewart.felker@...>
          Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
          Enviadas: Terça-feira, 19 de Março de 2013 23:44
          Assunto: Re: [tied] Re: Gorgyra and Tartaros - g/t dialectal Pre-Greek

           
          I don't have a whole lot to add, other than that Beekes has, for gorgura/korchurea, 'underground/subterranean drain'. Could this possibly be connected to borboros 'mire, filth' (cf. also Hittite mirmirrus)? For borboros, Beekes writes that a "connection with Arm. kork 'dirt', which require a reconstruction *gʷorgʷ(or)o- remains very doubtful" (227).

          However...
          there's also
          korkorugeō 'to fill with noise, storm, trouble' (korkorugmos, 'rumbling in the belly') and borboruzō 'to rumble' - perhap showing the same type of interchange. Even further, Beekes notes that borboruzō is "[c]onnected with borboros, though partly different in meaning (developments like these are not infrequently found in onomatopoeic words). In borborizei, the two meanings come together."


          Stewart Felker
          University of Memphis


          On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...> wrote:
           
          What would the possible meanings for Tartaros? It could mean "bottom", "underworld", "dark, shadowy, misty place", "cold or boggy or moldy place", "land of the dead", "West", "Night", "Evening, Dusk", "prision". Tartaros in Theogony may be an entity (akin to Khaos, Gaia and Eros), or just a place : "the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus, and dim Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth". I think Theogony's scheme is nicely symmetric:
          Gaia = The flat earth
          Ouranos = Celestial dome
          Aither = Bright atmosphere
          Pontos = Primordial Sea (= Vedic Milky Sea ?)
          Erebos = Underworld Darkness
          Tartaros = The Bottom, opposite to Sky
          Okeanos = The Snake-River around the Earth ( = Midgard Serpent? Vasuki?)

          JS Lopes




          De: Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...>
          Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
          Enviadas: Terça-feira, 19 de Março de 2013 19:56
          Assunto: Re: [tied] Re: Gorgyra and Tartaros - g/t dialectal Pre-Greek

           
          I still prefer *ger-g- 'turn' (Pokorny 1959: 385) for gorgyra (which
          means "inferior part of a tile" as well) < *gorg-urah2/4 (same root of
          gargathos) and *terh2- 'pass through' (Pokorny 1074-1075) for Tartaros
          < *tr-trh2-o-s (same root of tra:n'e:s)

          2013/3/19, Joao S. <josimo70@...>:
          > I was going to ask this, but I googled it and found my own question from two
          > years ago. Any comments?
          >
          > JS Lopes
          >
          > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:
          >>
          >> Considering tha apparent similarity bewteen Tartaros "hell, subterraneous
          >>
          >> prison" and gorgyra "subterraneous chamber, prison", could we try to
          >> postulate a
          >> corresponde G-T in two dialectal forms of Pre-Greek?
          >> Note that Gorgyra/Tartaros pair could be analogous to Gigas/Titan.
          >> gorgyra < *gargura < g^arg^ura < *j^arj^ura- ~ *c^arc^aro- > *t^art^aro >
          >>
          >> tartaros
          >>
          >>
          >> JS Lopes
          >>
          >
          >
          >





        • ufnkex
          ... NeoGreek gargara, gargariso German gurgeln (& Gurgel) Latin gurgulio (& gurgatio + gurgitare). BTW, Mongolians and some neighboring Turkic peoples call
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 1, 2013
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            >korkorugmos remembers onomatopoeic verbs like Portuguese gargalhar
            >"to laugh loudly" and gargarejar "to gargle".

            NeoGreek gargara, gargariso
            German gurgeln (& Gurgel)
            Latin gurgulio (& gurgatio + gurgitare).

            BTW, Mongolians and some neighboring Turkic peoples call /karkhiraa/,
            /khargyraa/, /kargyraa/ ("growling") some styles of /höömei/ [xöömej],
            i.e. the throat chanting/singing = overtone singing.

            *

            Is Engl. /harrumph/ onomatopoietic? Any link to the above?

            George
          • tigeradolf
            I think Albanian g�rthas (shout, yell) can be a cognate too. renders
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 5, 2013
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              I think Albanian "gërthas" (shout, yell) can be a cognate too. <th> renders <k'> so it can be reconstructed as Proto-Albanian *garkata

              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "ufnkex" <guestuser9357@...> wrote:
              >
              > >korkorugmos remembers onomatopoeic verbs like Portuguese gargalhar
              > >"to laugh loudly" and gargarejar "to gargle".
              >
              > NeoGreek gargara, gargariso
              > German gurgeln (& Gurgel)
              > Latin gurgulio (& gurgatio + gurgitare).
              >
              > BTW, Mongolians and some neighboring Turkic peoples call /karkhiraa/,
              > /khargyraa/, /kargyraa/ ("growling") some styles of /höömei/ [xöömej],
              > i.e. the throat chanting/singing = overtone singing.
              >
              > *
              >
              > Is Engl. /harrumph/ onomatopoietic? Any link to the above?
              >
              > George
              >
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