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Re: [tied] Italo-Celtic dialect base words?

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  • stlatos
    ... To clarify some things, I m sure fist wasn t borrowed, but native; but IE had mkW anyway. ... That is, the rec. DOES show f-, but if I m right 5
    Message 1 of 77 , Feb 28, 2013
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      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <sean@...> wrote:
      >

      >
      > That would likely mean orig. m (as shown by m, > w, > u in puxDa-) not n ; the presence of m in most high # (or, as it could be analyzed, otherwise unclear NC in '5', m/n in '9') would make it likely part of the IE plural (with met. sometimes, like in nasal present verbs).
      >


      To clarify some things, I'm sure 'fist' wasn't borrowed, but native; but IE had mkW anyway.


      > I already did that for f (and others) years ago. The important thing for this question if f- in '5'.
      >


      That is, the rec. DOES show f-, but if I'm right '5' actually req. XYaf- (with op. XY > sY > s^ or > hY > ?Y > ? > 0), but 'fist' could have XYaf- or f-, and I know they're from the same C- and ety.


      >
      > I rec. something like:
      >
      > * qW'XWwimkW'xWwiXYa > * fimk'wi?a
      >
      > which doesn't help in answering exactly what f was (f / F / pF / pXW ??) since XW and others could change opt., with many options in clusters.
      >
    • Tavi
      ... not mistaken, Petr suggested that Starostin s f should be replaced by X W or XW. ... based? ...
      Message 77 of 77 , Mar 9, 2013
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:
        >
        > A similar case would be IE *penkWe- '5' ~ NEC *fimk?wV 'fist'. If I'm
        not mistaken, Petr suggested that Starostin's f should be replaced by
        X\W or XW.
        >
        > > What are the attested words on which this NEC reconstruction is
        based?
        > >
        > See here:
        http://newstar.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/cau\
        c/caucet&text_number=1008&root=config
        >
        > > Very interesting. The phoneme *f is relatively rare, and the
        correspondences for this lexeme are regular. That does not exclude
        borrowing from an IE source after the breakup of Proto-NEC.
        >
        > I strongly disagree. The NEC word means 'fist', a meaning which in IE
        only appears in a *derivated form* found in Germanic, Slavic and Baltic
        (the latter with initial k-), while the bare lexeme shifted to '5' at an
        early date, probably in the Neolithic as other numerals. So in my
        opinion this would be another case where a word from a language ancestor
        to IE is preserved in NEC.
        >
        The cases of IE 'bear' and Germanic 'horse' would also fall in this
        cathegory.

        Unlike Starostin and Bengtson, I don't think all the proto-NEC lexicon
        is from Vasco-Caucasian (aka Sino-Caucasian), as apparently there's a
        significant portion whose origin is Eurasiatic (aka Nostratic). Also
        Yeniseian seems to be in a similar (or even worse) position, being a
        geographical outlayer. As a rule of thumb, I consider a root to be VC if
        it's attested in at least two of the following families: NEC, Burushaski
        and Sino-Tibetan.
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