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Re: [tied] Italo-Celtic dialect base words?

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  • Brian M. Scott
    ... This may be true for all I know, but it would be instructive (and possibly amusing) to see what you consider a rigorous demonstration that borrowing from
    Message 1 of 77 , Feb 27, 2013
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      At 5:09:55 AM on Wednesday, February 27, 2013, Tavi wrote:

      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57"
      > <dgkilday57@...> wrote:

      >>> A similar case would be IE *penkWe- '5' ~ NEC *fimk?wV
      >>> 'fist'. If I'm not mistaken, Petr suggested that
      >>> Starostin's f should be replaced by X\W or XW.

      >> What are the attested words on which this NEC
      >> reconstruction is based?

      > See here:
      > http://newstar.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/cauc/caucet&text_number=1008&root=config

      >> Can we rigorously exclude a borrowing from Gothic?

      > Definitely.

      This may be true for all I know, but it would be instructive
      (and possibly amusing) to see what you consider a rigorous
      demonstration that borrowing from Gothic is excluded.

      Brian
    • Tavi
      ... not mistaken, Petr suggested that Starostin s f should be replaced by X W or XW. ... based? ...
      Message 77 of 77 , Mar 9, 2013
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:
        >
        > A similar case would be IE *penkWe- '5' ~ NEC *fimk?wV 'fist'. If I'm
        not mistaken, Petr suggested that Starostin's f should be replaced by
        X\W or XW.
        >
        > > What are the attested words on which this NEC reconstruction is
        based?
        > >
        > See here:
        http://newstar.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/cau\
        c/caucet&text_number=1008&root=config
        >
        > > Very interesting. The phoneme *f is relatively rare, and the
        correspondences for this lexeme are regular. That does not exclude
        borrowing from an IE source after the breakup of Proto-NEC.
        >
        > I strongly disagree. The NEC word means 'fist', a meaning which in IE
        only appears in a *derivated form* found in Germanic, Slavic and Baltic
        (the latter with initial k-), while the bare lexeme shifted to '5' at an
        early date, probably in the Neolithic as other numerals. So in my
        opinion this would be another case where a word from a language ancestor
        to IE is preserved in NEC.
        >
        The cases of IE 'bear' and Germanic 'horse' would also fall in this
        cathegory.

        Unlike Starostin and Bengtson, I don't think all the proto-NEC lexicon
        is from Vasco-Caucasian (aka Sino-Caucasian), as apparently there's a
        significant portion whose origin is Eurasiatic (aka Nostratic). Also
        Yeniseian seems to be in a similar (or even worse) position, being a
        geographical outlayer. As a rule of thumb, I consider a root to be VC if
        it's attested in at least two of the following families: NEC, Burushaski
        and Sino-Tibetan.
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