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Re: [tied] Italo-Celtic dialect base words?

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  • Rick McCallister
    falcons in Delaware are very common and tend to be reddish and/or beige but I don t know what European falcons look like although the ones used for hunting
    Message 1 of 77 , Feb 25, 2013
      falcons in Delaware are very common and tend to be reddish and/or beige but I don't know what European falcons look like although the ones used for hunting look brownish-beige-grayish (pardo --in the original sense of gray or brown). So if falcons are grayish-brown and if they contrast with other birds of prey then maybe Watkins may be right --but only if the lx squares

      --- On Mon, 2/25/13, Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...> wrote:

      From: Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...>
      Subject: Re: [tied] Italo-Celtic dialect base words?
      To: "cybalist@yahoogroups.com" <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Monday, February 25, 2013, 9:24 PM


      A falcon would be "grey" in contrast to what bird? Eagle, hawk, raven, kite? In Latin birds of prey were called aquila, accipiter, acceptor, bu:teo:, miluus, vultur, ?astur. In Greek, aietos, hierax, mermnos, kirkos, morphnos, iktinos.

      JS Lopes

      De: dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>
      Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
      Enviadas: Segunda-feira, 25 de Fevereiro de 2013 23:07
      Assunto: Re: [tied] Italo-Celtic dialect base words?


      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister wrote:
      > If falco were of Germanic origin, it would be from a word for "gray", right? 

      I believe that is Watkins' view, but I do not have the AHD with me. One problem with _falco:_ is that it is attested only late.


      > --- On Mon, 2/25/13, dgkilday57 wrote:
      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" wrote:
      > >
      > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Sorry, message was truncated. It was a question:
      > > > volcae, sg. volca < *volka(s) < *wlkWos ???
      > More likely nom./acc. pl. *-a:s (historically second declension) was adapted into Latin as first decl. (masc.) as with Belgae, Celtae.
      > > As I mentioned before, this etynmology makes little sense as a native Celtic word, so Delamarre links Gaulish uolco- to Latin falco: 'hawk'.
      > >
      > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/69567
      > That makes even less sense, since _falco:_ (if not of Gmc. origin, which Watkins favors but I find improbable) belongs with _falx_ 'sickle', cognate with Liguro-Latin _daculum_ (Fr. _daille_ etc.) and Sicel _zagkle:_, earlier *dagkle: (on coins Dagkleion, later Z-), both showing dissimilation from *dalklom. These require a *dH-anlaut which would appear in Celtic as *d- also.
      > But if Xavier has convinced himself that Uolcos means 'Hawk', it would be futile to argue with him.
      > DGK

    • Tavi
      ... not mistaken, Petr suggested that Starostin s f should be replaced by X W or XW. ... based? ...
      Message 77 of 77 , Mar 9, 2013
        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:
        > A similar case would be IE *penkWe- '5' ~ NEC *fimk?wV 'fist'. If I'm
        not mistaken, Petr suggested that Starostin's f should be replaced by
        X\W or XW.
        > > What are the attested words on which this NEC reconstruction is
        > >
        > See here:
        > > Very interesting. The phoneme *f is relatively rare, and the
        correspondences for this lexeme are regular. That does not exclude
        borrowing from an IE source after the breakup of Proto-NEC.
        > I strongly disagree. The NEC word means 'fist', a meaning which in IE
        only appears in a *derivated form* found in Germanic, Slavic and Baltic
        (the latter with initial k-), while the bare lexeme shifted to '5' at an
        early date, probably in the Neolithic as other numerals. So in my
        opinion this would be another case where a word from a language ancestor
        to IE is preserved in NEC.
        The cases of IE 'bear' and Germanic 'horse' would also fall in this

        Unlike Starostin and Bengtson, I don't think all the proto-NEC lexicon
        is from Vasco-Caucasian (aka Sino-Caucasian), as apparently there's a
        significant portion whose origin is Eurasiatic (aka Nostratic). Also
        Yeniseian seems to be in a similar (or even worse) position, being a
        geographical outlayer. As a rule of thumb, I consider a root to be VC if
        it's attested in at least two of the following families: NEC, Burushaski
        and Sino-Tibetan.
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