Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [tied] Greek hippos < ek^wos... or not?

Expand Messages
  • Joao S. Lopes
    Is there another example where kWw- -pw- -pp-? JS Lopes ________________________________ De: Tavi Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 25, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Is there another example where kWw->-pw- > -pp-?

      JS Lopes



      De: Tavi <oalexandre@...>
      Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
      Enviadas: Domingo, 24 de Fevereiro de 2013 19:39
      Assunto: Re: [tied] Greek hippos < ek^wos... or not?

       
      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" wrote:
      >
      > Is it sure to consider Greek hippos < *ek^wos, despite its clear irregular
      > shift? Would we expect *epos, instead of hippos? Does hippos come from
      > another IE language, or has it no relation to PIE root. Coincidence or not,
      > the builder of Trojan Horse was called Epeios, is it a clue for an obsolete
      > *epos in older Greek?
      >
      > > You seemingly don't mention a third possibility: that hippos comes
      > > from another PIE root
      >
      That is, in the ortodox PIE model any item which doesn't fit into regular sound correspondences is put under a different "root". In my view, the ortodox model is inconsistent and divergent sound correspondences like in this case mean divergent word paths.

      > You're right, I forgot to mention it: hippos < *sikWkWo-? *yikWkWo- ? The cluster -pp- is very uncommon in Greek. As a variant of -kk-, we can compare it to lakkos < *lak-wo-s.
      >
      Actually, Gamkrelidze-Ivanov mentioned a possible protoform *s´ik´wo-, where *s´ is their own "compact sibilant" (a rough counterpart of my own sound law regarding post-velar fricatives), giving *s- > h- in Greek and zero elsewhere, but I find little support for it.

      In my opinion, Greek -pp- doesn't come from *-kWkW- (which I find rather absurd) but from *-kWw- resulting from regressive assimilation of *-k´w-. Hence *-kWw- > *-pw- > -pp- by reduction and progressive assimilation (possibly these two changes were synchronic) as in *-k´w- > -kk-.

      Besides -k´w-, in my opinion other combinations of velar+w produced weird results in some IE languages, especially Celtic and Latin.



    • Joao S. Lopes
      What are the attested dialectal variants of Greek hippos? Mycenean points to *(h)i(k)kWo-. JS Lopes ________________________________ De: Joao S. Lopes
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 25, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        What are the attested dialectal variants of Greek hippos? Mycenean <i-qo> points to *(h)i(k)kWo-.

        JS Lopes



        De: Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...>
        Para: "cybalist@yahoogroups.com" <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
        Enviadas: Segunda-feira, 25 de Fevereiro de 2013 8:50
        Assunto: Re: [tied] Greek hippos < ek^wos... or not?

         
        Is there another example where kWw->-pw- > -pp-?

        JS Lopes



        De: Tavi <oalexandre@...>
        Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
        Enviadas: Domingo, 24 de Fevereiro de 2013 19:39
        Assunto: Re: [tied] Greek hippos < ek^wos... or not?

         
        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" wrote:
        >
        > Is it sure to consider Greek hippos < *ek^wos, despite its clear irregular
        > shift? Would we expect *epos, instead of hippos? Does hippos come from
        > another IE language, or has it no relation to PIE root. Coincidence or not,
        > the builder of Trojan Horse was called Epeios, is it a clue for an obsolete
        > *epos in older Greek?
        >
        > > You seemingly don't mention a third possibility: that hippos comes
        > > from another PIE root
        >
        That is, in the ortodox PIE model any item which doesn't fit into regular sound correspondences is put under a different "root". In my view, the ortodox model is inconsistent and divergent sound correspondences like in this case mean divergent word paths.

        > You're right, I forgot to mention it: hippos < *sikWkWo-? *yikWkWo- ? The cluster -pp- is very uncommon in Greek. As a variant of -kk-, we can compare it to lakkos < *lak-wo-s.
        >
        Actually, Gamkrelidze-Ivanov mentioned a possible protoform *s´ik´wo-, where *s´ is their own "compact sibilant" (a rough counterpart of my own sound law regarding post-velar fricatives), giving *s- > h- in Greek and zero elsewhere, but I find little support for it.

        In my opinion, Greek -pp- doesn't come from *-kWkW- (which I find rather absurd) but from *-kWw- resulting from regressive assimilation of *-k´w-. Hence *-kWw- > *-pw- > -pp- by reduction and progressive assimilation (possibly these two changes were synchronic) as in *-k´w- > -kk-.

        Besides -k´w-, in my opinion other combinations of velar+w produced weird results in some IE languages, especially Celtic and Latin.





      • stlatos
        ... *kYwàx+ pa:ma = possessions Boe, ta ppa[:]mata = possessions (epig.)
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 25, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:
          >
          > Is there another example where kWw->-pw- > -pp-?
          >
          > JS Lopes
          >

          *kYwàx+ > pa:ma = possessions Boe, ta ppa[:]mata = possessions (epig.)
        • dgkilday57
          ... Very likely this is no coincidence and some dialects of prehistoric Greek did maintain the expected *epos. ... Our friend Bhr. is hardly an exponent of
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 25, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Is it sure to consider Greek hippos < *ek^wos, despite its clear irregular
            > > shift? Would we expect *epos, instead of hippos? Does hippos come from
            > > another IE language, or has it no relation to PIE root. Coincidence or not,
            > > the builder of Trojan Horse was called Epeios, is it a clue for an obsolete
            > > *epos in older Greek?

            Very likely this is no coincidence and some dialects of prehistoric Greek did maintain the expected *epos.

            > > > You seemingly don't mention a third possibility: that hippos comes
            > > > from another PIE root
            > >
            > That is, in the ortodox PIE model any item which doesn't fit into regular sound correspondences is put under a different "root". In my view, the ortodox model is inconsistent and divergent sound correspondences like in this case mean divergent word paths.

            Our friend Bhr. is hardly an exponent of "orthodox PIE"; his extreme immobilist model, which precludes borrowing in pre-Roman times, demands the robotic reconstruction of PIE roots for individual words. This is nothing new; John Rhys mechanically postulated a root in *kW- to explain anything beginning with p- as P-Celtic.

            > > You're right, I forgot to mention it: hippos < *sikWkWo-? *yikWkWo- ? The cluster -pp- is very uncommon in Greek. As a variant of -kk-, we can compare it to lakkos < *lak-wo-s.
            > >
            > Actually, Gamkrelidze-Ivanov mentioned a possible protoform *s´ik´wo-, where *s´ is their own "compact sibilant" (a rough counterpart of my own sound law regarding post-velar fricatives), giving *s- > h- in Greek and zero elsewhere, but I find little support for it.
            >
            > In my opinion, Greek -pp- doesn't come from *-kWkW- (which I find rather absurd) but from *-kWw- resulting from regressive assimilation of *-k´w-. Hence *-kWw- > *-pw- > -pp- by reduction and progressive assimilation (possibly these two changes were synchronic) as in *-k´w- > -kk-.

            In my opinion, the Macedonian royal name Bilippos (Hellenized as Phil-) points to Mac. as the source of _hippos_, the internal consonantism being PIE *-k^w- > centumized *-kW- > Ill.-Lus. *-kkW- > P-Ill. *-kp- > Mac. *-pp- (with the -kp-stage actually attested in Lukpeio on Paeonian coins, as mentioned earlier).

            DGK
          • Joao S. Lopes
            ... In my opinion, the Macedonian royal name Bilippos (Hellenized as Phil-) points to Mac. as the source of _hippos_, the internal consonantism being PIE
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 25, 2013
            • 0 Attachment

              > >
              > Actually, Gamkrelidze-Ivanov mentioned a possible protoform *s´ik´wo-, where *s´ is their own "compact sibilant" (a rough counterpart of my own sound law regarding post-velar fricatives), giving *s- > h- in Greek and zero elsewhere, but I find little support for it.
              >
              > In my opinion, Greek -pp- doesn't come from *-kWkW- (which I find rather absurd) but from *-kWw- resulting from regressive assimilation of *-k´w-. Hence *-kWw- > *-pw- > -pp- by reduction and progressive assimilation (possibly these two changes were synchronic) as in *-k´w- > -kk-.

              In my opinion, the Macedonian royal name Bilippos (Hellenized as Phil-) points to Mac. as the source of _hippos_, the internal consonantism being PIE *-k^w- > centumized *-kW- > Ill.-Lus. *-kkW- > P-Ill. *-kp- > Mac. *-pp- (with the -kp-stage actually attested in Lukpeio on Paeonian coins, as mentioned earlier).

              It sounds interesting, but the presence of *iqo in Mycenean points to an age older than Macedonian-Greek contact, doesn't it? Unless we infer that Mycenean *hiqwos and Macedonian *hikpos/*hippos share  a common source.

              JS Lopes
            • dgkilday57
              ... I think Mycenaean borrowed *hikkWos from Old Illyrian, writing it in Linear B as _i-qo_. Later in K-Illyrian, *-kkW- was reduced to *-kk-, and Epidaurian
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 26, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > Actually, Gamkrelidze-Ivanov mentioned a possible protoform *s´ik´wo-, where *s´ is their own "compact sibilant" (a rough counterpart of my own sound law regarding post-velar fricatives), giving *s- > h- in Greek and zero elsewhere, but I find little support for it.
                > >
                > > In my opinion, Greek -pp- doesn't come from *-kWkW- (which I find rather absurd) but from *-kWw- resulting from regressive assimilation of *-k´w-. Hence *-kWw- > *-pw- > -pp- by reduction and progressive assimilation (possibly these two changes were synchronic) as in *-k´w- > -kk-.
                >
                > In my opinion, the Macedonian royal name Bilippos (Hellenized as Phil-) points to Mac. as the source of _hippos_, the internal consonantism being PIE *-k^w- > centumized *-kW- > Ill.-Lus. *-kkW- > P-Ill. *-kp- > Mac. *-pp- (with the -kp-stage actually attested in Lukpeio on Paeonian coins, as mentioned earlier).
                >
                > It sounds interesting, but the presence of *iqo in Mycenean points to an age older than Macedonian-Greek contact, doesn't it? Unless we infer that Mycenean *hiqwos and Macedonian *hikpos/*hippos share  a common source.
                >
                I think Mycenaean borrowed *hikkWos from Old Illyrian, writing it in Linear B as _i-qo_. Later in K-Illyrian, *-kkW- was reduced to *-kk-, and Epidaurian borrowed _ikkos_. Messapic probably had the same form (actually *ikkas with *a < *o), since _-ikkos_ occurs in Tarentine personal names. Attic _hippos_ in this view represents an independent borrowing from Macedonian. It is noteworthy that the aspiration fails in the name _Leukippos_, but not in the adjective _tethrippos_ 'four-horsed'. Probably the name was borrowed and indicates the weakness of the aspiration (resulting from PIE *h1e- > Ill.-Lus. *hi-) in (Old) Macedonian, while the adjective was formed within Attic.

                Sicel _ipne:_ (oxytone) 'saddle', if native, points to the language being P-Illyrian (or P-Lusitanian), and shows that this group did NOT undergo the Kluge-Stokes assimilation, so my earlier conjecture about Mac. _Perdikkas_ (as *per-dik^-nos 'ausgezeichnet, outstanding') must be rejected (but *per-dik^-wos in the same sense is acceptable).

                DGK
              • Joao S. Lopes
                In Iliad, land of Tricca, Nurse of proud steeds , could Trikka bear a suffix -ikka, horse ? Perhaps *Tri-h1ek^w-eh2 place of three horses , or
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 26, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  In Iliad, "land of Tricca, Nurse of proud steeds", could Trikka bear a suffix -ikka, "horse"? Perhaps *Tri-h1ek^w-eh2 "place of three horses", or *Dru-h1ek^w-h2 "place of  strong horses", cf. Drvaspa ?

                  JS Lopes



                  De: dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>
                  Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                  Enviadas: Terça-feira, 26 de Fevereiro de 2013 22:49
                  Assunto: Re: [tied] Greek hippos < ek^wos... or not?

                   


                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > Actually, Gamkrelidze-Ivanov mentioned a possible protoform *s´ik´wo-, where *s´ is their own "compact sibilant" (a rough counterpart of my own sound law regarding post-velar fricatives), giving *s- > h- in Greek and zero elsewhere, but I find little support for it.
                  > >
                  > > In my opinion, Greek -pp- doesn't come from *-kWkW- (which I find rather absurd) but from *-kWw- resulting from regressive assimilation of *-k´w-. Hence *-kWw- > *-pw- > -pp- by reduction and progressive assimilation (possibly these two changes were synchronic) as in *-k´w- > -kk-.
                  >
                  > In my opinion, the Macedonian royal name Bilippos (Hellenized as Phil-) points to Mac. as the source of _hippos_, the internal consonantism being PIE *-k^w- > centumized *-kW- > Ill.-Lus. *-kkW- > P-Ill. *-kp- > Mac. *-pp- (with the -kp-stage actually attested in Lukpeio on Paeonian coins, as mentioned earlier).
                  >
                  > It sounds interesting, but the presence of *iqo in Mycenean points to an age older than Macedonian-Greek contact, doesn't it? Unless we infer that Mycenean *hiqwos and Macedonian *hikpos/*hippos share  a common source.
                  >
                  I think Mycenaean borrowed *hikkWos from Old Illyrian, writing it in Linear B as _i-qo_. Later in K-Illyrian, *-kkW- was reduced to *-kk-, and Epidaurian borrowed _ikkos_. Messapic probably had the same form (actually *ikkas with *a < *o), since _-ikkos_ occurs in Tarentine personal names. Attic _hippos_ in this view represents an independent borrowing from Macedonian. It is noteworthy that the aspiration fails in the name _Leukippos_, but not in the adjective _tethrippos_ 'four-horsed'. Probably the name was borrowed and indicates the weakness of the aspiration (resulting from PIE *h1e- > Ill.-Lus. *hi-) in (Old) Macedonian, while the adjective was formed within Attic.

                  Sicel _ipne:_ (oxytone) 'saddle', if native, points to the language being P-Illyrian (or P-Lusitanian), and shows that this group did NOT undergo the Kluge-Stokes assimilation, so my earlier conjecture about Mac. _Perdikkas_ (as *per-dik^-nos 'ausgezeichnet, outstanding') must be rejected (but *per-dik^-wos in the same sense is acceptable).

                  DGK



                • dgkilday57
                  ... Oops! My second conjecture on _Perdikkas_ is NOT acceptable, since I have already assumed *-k^w- Mac. -pp-. My THIRD conjecture is *per-dik^-jos, with
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 27, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > [DGK]
                    > > In my opinion, the Macedonian royal name Bilippos (Hellenized as Phil-) points to Mac. as the source of _hippos_, the internal consonantism being PIE *-k^w- > centumized *-kW- > Ill.-Lus. *-kkW- > P-Ill. *-kp- > Mac. *-pp- (with the -kp-stage actually attested in Lukpeio on Paeonian coins, as mentioned earlier).
                    > >
                    > > It sounds interesting, but the presence of *iqo in Mycenean points to an age older than Macedonian-Greek contact, doesn't it? Unless we infer that Mycenean *hiqwos and Macedonian *hikpos/*hippos share  a common source.
                    > >
                    > I think Mycenaean borrowed *hikkWos from Old Illyrian, writing it in Linear B as _i-qo_. Later in K-Illyrian, *-kkW- was reduced to *-kk-, and Epidaurian borrowed _ikkos_. Messapic probably had the same form (actually *ikkas with *a < *o), since _-ikkos_ occurs in Tarentine personal names. Attic _hippos_ in this view represents an independent borrowing from Macedonian. It is noteworthy that the aspiration fails in the name _Leukippos_, but not in the adjective _tethrippos_ 'four-horsed'. Probably the name was borrowed and indicates the weakness of the aspiration (resulting from PIE *h1e- > Ill.-Lus. *hi-) in (Old) Macedonian, while the adjective was formed within Attic.
                    >
                    > Sicel _ipne:_ (oxytone) 'saddle', if native, points to the language being P-Illyrian (or P-Lusitanian), and shows that this group did NOT undergo the Kluge-Stokes assimilation, so my earlier conjecture about Mac. _Perdikkas_ (as *per-dik^-nos 'ausgezeichnet, outstanding') must be rejected (but *per-dik^-wos in the same sense is acceptable).
                    >
                    Oops! My second conjecture on _Perdikkas_ is NOT acceptable, since I have already assumed *-k^w- > Mac. -pp-. My THIRD conjecture is *per-dik^-jos, with *-k^j- > *-kkj- > -kk-, more or less as in West Germanic /j/-gemination.

                    DGK
                  • dgkilday57
                    ... The iota has hidden quantity in the acc. _Trikke:n_ (Il. 2:729), but the monokappatic gen. _Trike:s_ (Il. 4:202) requires a short iota by scansion: la:o:n,
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 28, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > In Iliad, "land of Tricca, Nurse of proud steeds", could Trikka bear a suffix -ikka, "horse"? Perhaps *Tri-h1ek^w-eh2 "place of three horses", or *Dru-h1ek^w-h2 "place of strong horses", cf. Drvaspa ?
                      >
                      The iota has hidden quantity in the acc. _Trikke:n_ (Il. 2:729), but the monokappatic gen. _Trike:s_ (Il. 4:202) requires a short iota by scansion:

                      la:o:n, /hoi hoi he/ponto Tri/ke:s ex /hippobo/toio.
                      -- / -^^ / -^^ / -- / -^^ / -(^)

                      A mute plus liquid seldom makes position in Homer, but if it did here and _Tri:ke:s_ were read, what follows _hipp-_ would be metrically impossible. We must conclude that the iota is short, and the geminate is genuine, shortened metri gratia in 4:202 just as _Odusseus_ sometimes becomes _Oduseus_. (Inscriptions, such as the pure Attic _Olutteus_ on vases, show that the geminate is genuine in this personal name.)

                      If the place-name _Trikke:_ indeed had long iota, it might be understood as a bahuvri:hi 'three-horse(d)', Old Illyrian *tri-hikkWa: > K-Illyrian *tri:kka(:), and one might draw some interesting conclusions. Unfortunately I see no principled way to infer that the iota was ever long, so this place-name probably has nothing to do with 'horse'. The epithet 'horse-nourishing' is fairly common in Homer and distinguishes rich lands from poor ones, the latter characteristic of most of Greece proper, which could not support horse-breeding.

                      DGK
                    • Joao S. Lopes
                      Thanks for the reply and explanations. JS Lopes ________________________________ De: dgkilday57 Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Enviadas:
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 1, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thanks for the reply and explanations.

                        JS Lopes



                        De: dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>
                        Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                        Enviadas: Quinta-feira, 28 de Fevereiro de 2013 22:38
                        Assunto: Re: [tied] Greek hippos < ek^wos... or not?

                         


                        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" wrote:
                        >
                        > In Iliad, "land of Tricca, Nurse of proud steeds", could Trikka bear a suffix -ikka, "horse"? Perhaps *Tri-h1ek^w-eh2 "place of three horses", or *Dru-h1ek^w-h2 "place of strong horses", cf. Drvaspa ?
                        >
                        The iota has hidden quantity in the acc. _Trikke:n_ (Il. 2:729), but the monokappatic gen. _Trike:s_ (Il. 4:202) requires a short iota by scansion:

                        la:o:n, /hoi hoi he/ponto Tri/ke:s ex /hippobo/toio.
                        -- / -^^ / -^^ / -- / -^^ / -(^)

                        A mute plus liquid seldom makes position in Homer, but if it did here and _Tri:ke:s_ were read, what follows _hipp-_ would be metrically impossible. We must conclude that the iota is short, and the geminate is genuine, shortened metri gratia in 4:202 just as _Odusseus_ sometimes becomes _Oduseus_. (Inscriptions, such as the pure Attic _Olutteus_ on vases, show that the geminate is genuine in this personal name.)

                        If the place-name _Trikke:_ indeed had long iota, it might be understood as a bahuvri:hi 'three-horse(d)', Old Illyrian *tri-hikkWa: > K-Illyrian *tri:kka(:), and one might draw some interesting conclusions. Unfortunately I see no principled way to infer that the iota was ever long, so this place-name probably has nothing to do with 'horse'. The epithet 'horse-nourishing' is fairly common in Homer and distinguishes rich lands from poor ones, the latter characteristic of most of Greece proper, which could not support horse-breeding.

                        DGK



                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.