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Re: [tied] Greek hippos < ek^wos... or not?

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  • Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
    You seemingly don t mention a third possibility: that hippos comes from another PIE root
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 24, 2013
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      You seemingly don't mention a third possibility: that hippos comes
      from another PIE root

      2013/2/24, Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...>:
      > Is it sure to consider Greek hippos < *ek^wos, despite its clear irregular
      > shift? Would we expect *epos, instead of hippos? Does hippos come from
      > another IE language, or has it no relation to PIE root. Coincidence or not,
      > the builder of Trojan Horse was called Epeios, is it a clue for an obsolete
      > *epos in older Greek?
      >
      > JS Lopes
      >
    • Joao S. Lopes
      You re right, I forgot to mention it: hippos
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 24, 2013
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        You're right, I forgot to mention it: hippos < *sikWkWo-? *yikWkWo- ? The cluster -pp- is very uncommon in Greek. As a variant of -kk-, we can compare it to lakkos < *lak-wo-s. Could Finish hevonen (<hepo-) be related?

        JS Lopes



        De: Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...>
        Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
        Enviadas: Domingo, 24 de Fevereiro de 2013 17:16
        Assunto: Re: [tied] Greek hippos < ek^wos... or not?

         
        You seemingly don't mention a third possibility: that hippos comes
        from another PIE root

        2013/2/24, Joao S. Lopes josimo70@...>:
        > Is it sure to consider Greek hippos < *ek^wos, despite its clear irregular
        > shift? Would we expect *epos, instead of hippos? Does hippos come from
        > another IE language, or has it no relation to PIE root. Coincidence or not,
        > the builder of Trojan Horse was called Epeios, is it a clue for an obsolete
        > *epos in older Greek?
        >
        > JS Lopes
        >


      • Tavi
        ... That is, in the ortodox PIE model any item which doesn t fit into regular sound correspondences is put under a different root . In my view, the ortodox
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 24, 2013
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          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:
          >
          > Is it sure to consider Greek hippos < *ek^wos, despite its clear irregular
          > shift? Would we expect *epos, instead of hippos? Does hippos come from
          > another IE language, or has it no relation to PIE root. Coincidence or not,
          > the builder of Trojan Horse was called Epeios, is it a clue for an obsolete
          > *epos in older Greek?
          >
          > > You seemingly don't mention a third possibility: that hippos comes
          > > from another PIE root
          >
          That is, in the ortodox PIE model any item which doesn't fit into regular sound correspondences is put under a different "root". In my view, the ortodox model is inconsistent and divergent sound correspondences like in this case mean divergent word paths.

          > You're right, I forgot to mention it: hippos < *sikWkWo-? *yikWkWo- ? The cluster -pp- is very uncommon in Greek. As a variant of -kk-, we can compare it to lakkos < *lak-wo-s.
          >
          Actually, Gamkrelidze-Ivanov mentioned a possible protoform *s´ik´wo-, where *s´ is their own "compact sibilant" (a rough counterpart of my own sound law regarding post-velar fricatives), giving *s- > h- in Greek and zero elsewhere, but I find little support for it.

          In my opinion, Greek -pp- doesn't come from *-kWkW- (which I find rather absurd) but from *-kWw- resulting from regressive assimilation of *-k´w-. Hence *-kWw- > *-pw- > -pp- by reduction and progressive assimilation (possibly these two changes were synchronic) as in *-k´w- > -kk-.


          Besides -k´w-, in my opinion other combinations of velar+w produced weird results in some IE languages, especially Celtic and Latin.
        • Rick McCallister
          There was an Anatolian root for horse that began with s-, someone will remember it ... From: Joao S. Lopes Subject: Re: [tied] Greek
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 24, 2013
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            There was an Anatolian root for horse that began with s-, someone will remember it

            --- On Sun, 2/24/13, Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...> wrote:

            From: Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...>
            Subject: Re: [tied] Greek hippos < ek^wos... or not?
            To: "cybalist@yahoogroups.com" <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Sunday, February 24, 2013, 3:32 PM

             

            You're right, I forgot to mention it: hippos < *sikWkWo-? *yikWkWo- ? The cluster -pp- is very uncommon in Greek. As a variant of -kk-, we can compare it to lakkos < *lak-wo-s. Could Finish hevonen (<hepo-) be related?

            JS Lopes



            De: Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...>
            Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
            Enviadas: Domingo, 24 de Fevereiro de 2013 17:16
            Assunto: Re: [tied] Greek hippos < ek^wos... or not?

             
            You seemingly don't mention a third possibility: that hippos comes
            from another PIE root

            2013/2/24, Joao S. Lopes josimo70@...>:
            > Is it sure to consider Greek hippos < *ek^wos, despite its clear irregular
            > shift? Would we expect *epos, instead of hippos? Does hippos come from
            > another IE language, or has it no relation to PIE root. Coincidence or not,
            > the builder of Trojan Horse was called Epeios, is it a clue for an obsolete
            > *epos in older Greek?
            >
            > JS Lopes
            >


          • Joao S. Lopes
            Is there another example where kWw- -pw- -pp-? JS Lopes ________________________________ De: Tavi Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 25, 2013
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              Is there another example where kWw->-pw- > -pp-?

              JS Lopes



              De: Tavi <oalexandre@...>
              Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
              Enviadas: Domingo, 24 de Fevereiro de 2013 19:39
              Assunto: Re: [tied] Greek hippos < ek^wos... or not?

               
              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" wrote:
              >
              > Is it sure to consider Greek hippos < *ek^wos, despite its clear irregular
              > shift? Would we expect *epos, instead of hippos? Does hippos come from
              > another IE language, or has it no relation to PIE root. Coincidence or not,
              > the builder of Trojan Horse was called Epeios, is it a clue for an obsolete
              > *epos in older Greek?
              >
              > > You seemingly don't mention a third possibility: that hippos comes
              > > from another PIE root
              >
              That is, in the ortodox PIE model any item which doesn't fit into regular sound correspondences is put under a different "root". In my view, the ortodox model is inconsistent and divergent sound correspondences like in this case mean divergent word paths.

              > You're right, I forgot to mention it: hippos < *sikWkWo-? *yikWkWo- ? The cluster -pp- is very uncommon in Greek. As a variant of -kk-, we can compare it to lakkos < *lak-wo-s.
              >
              Actually, Gamkrelidze-Ivanov mentioned a possible protoform *s´ik´wo-, where *s´ is their own "compact sibilant" (a rough counterpart of my own sound law regarding post-velar fricatives), giving *s- > h- in Greek and zero elsewhere, but I find little support for it.

              In my opinion, Greek -pp- doesn't come from *-kWkW- (which I find rather absurd) but from *-kWw- resulting from regressive assimilation of *-k´w-. Hence *-kWw- > *-pw- > -pp- by reduction and progressive assimilation (possibly these two changes were synchronic) as in *-k´w- > -kk-.

              Besides -k´w-, in my opinion other combinations of velar+w produced weird results in some IE languages, especially Celtic and Latin.



            • Joao S. Lopes
              Is there another example where kWw- -pw- -pp-? JS Lopes ________________________________ De: Tavi Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 25, 2013
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                Is there another example where kWw->-pw- > -pp-?

                JS Lopes



                De: Tavi <oalexandre@...>
                Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                Enviadas: Domingo, 24 de Fevereiro de 2013 19:39
                Assunto: Re: [tied] Greek hippos < ek^wos... or not?

                 
                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" wrote:
                >
                > Is it sure to consider Greek hippos < *ek^wos, despite its clear irregular
                > shift? Would we expect *epos, instead of hippos? Does hippos come from
                > another IE language, or has it no relation to PIE root. Coincidence or not,
                > the builder of Trojan Horse was called Epeios, is it a clue for an obsolete
                > *epos in older Greek?
                >
                > > You seemingly don't mention a third possibility: that hippos comes
                > > from another PIE root
                >
                That is, in the ortodox PIE model any item which doesn't fit into regular sound correspondences is put under a different "root". In my view, the ortodox model is inconsistent and divergent sound correspondences like in this case mean divergent word paths.

                > You're right, I forgot to mention it: hippos < *sikWkWo-? *yikWkWo- ? The cluster -pp- is very uncommon in Greek. As a variant of -kk-, we can compare it to lakkos < *lak-wo-s.
                >
                Actually, Gamkrelidze-Ivanov mentioned a possible protoform *s´ik´wo-, where *s´ is their own "compact sibilant" (a rough counterpart of my own sound law regarding post-velar fricatives), giving *s- > h- in Greek and zero elsewhere, but I find little support for it.

                In my opinion, Greek -pp- doesn't come from *-kWkW- (which I find rather absurd) but from *-kWw- resulting from regressive assimilation of *-k´w-. Hence *-kWw- > *-pw- > -pp- by reduction and progressive assimilation (possibly these two changes were synchronic) as in *-k´w- > -kk-.

                Besides -k´w-, in my opinion other combinations of velar+w produced weird results in some IE languages, especially Celtic and Latin.



              • Joao S. Lopes
                What are the attested dialectal variants of Greek hippos? Mycenean points to *(h)i(k)kWo-. JS Lopes ________________________________ De: Joao S. Lopes
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 25, 2013
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                  What are the attested dialectal variants of Greek hippos? Mycenean <i-qo> points to *(h)i(k)kWo-.

                  JS Lopes



                  De: Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...>
                  Para: "cybalist@yahoogroups.com" <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
                  Enviadas: Segunda-feira, 25 de Fevereiro de 2013 8:50
                  Assunto: Re: [tied] Greek hippos < ek^wos... or not?

                   
                  Is there another example where kWw->-pw- > -pp-?

                  JS Lopes



                  De: Tavi <oalexandre@...>
                  Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                  Enviadas: Domingo, 24 de Fevereiro de 2013 19:39
                  Assunto: Re: [tied] Greek hippos < ek^wos... or not?

                   
                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" wrote:
                  >
                  > Is it sure to consider Greek hippos < *ek^wos, despite its clear irregular
                  > shift? Would we expect *epos, instead of hippos? Does hippos come from
                  > another IE language, or has it no relation to PIE root. Coincidence or not,
                  > the builder of Trojan Horse was called Epeios, is it a clue for an obsolete
                  > *epos in older Greek?
                  >
                  > > You seemingly don't mention a third possibility: that hippos comes
                  > > from another PIE root
                  >
                  That is, in the ortodox PIE model any item which doesn't fit into regular sound correspondences is put under a different "root". In my view, the ortodox model is inconsistent and divergent sound correspondences like in this case mean divergent word paths.

                  > You're right, I forgot to mention it: hippos < *sikWkWo-? *yikWkWo- ? The cluster -pp- is very uncommon in Greek. As a variant of -kk-, we can compare it to lakkos < *lak-wo-s.
                  >
                  Actually, Gamkrelidze-Ivanov mentioned a possible protoform *s´ik´wo-, where *s´ is their own "compact sibilant" (a rough counterpart of my own sound law regarding post-velar fricatives), giving *s- > h- in Greek and zero elsewhere, but I find little support for it.

                  In my opinion, Greek -pp- doesn't come from *-kWkW- (which I find rather absurd) but from *-kWw- resulting from regressive assimilation of *-k´w-. Hence *-kWw- > *-pw- > -pp- by reduction and progressive assimilation (possibly these two changes were synchronic) as in *-k´w- > -kk-.

                  Besides -k´w-, in my opinion other combinations of velar+w produced weird results in some IE languages, especially Celtic and Latin.





                • stlatos
                  ... *kYwàx+ pa:ma = possessions Boe, ta ppa[:]mata = possessions (epig.)
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 25, 2013
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                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Is there another example where kWw->-pw- > -pp-?
                    >
                    > JS Lopes
                    >

                    *kYwàx+ > pa:ma = possessions Boe, ta ppa[:]mata = possessions (epig.)
                  • dgkilday57
                    ... Very likely this is no coincidence and some dialects of prehistoric Greek did maintain the expected *epos. ... Our friend Bhr. is hardly an exponent of
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 25, 2013
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                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Is it sure to consider Greek hippos < *ek^wos, despite its clear irregular
                      > > shift? Would we expect *epos, instead of hippos? Does hippos come from
                      > > another IE language, or has it no relation to PIE root. Coincidence or not,
                      > > the builder of Trojan Horse was called Epeios, is it a clue for an obsolete
                      > > *epos in older Greek?

                      Very likely this is no coincidence and some dialects of prehistoric Greek did maintain the expected *epos.

                      > > > You seemingly don't mention a third possibility: that hippos comes
                      > > > from another PIE root
                      > >
                      > That is, in the ortodox PIE model any item which doesn't fit into regular sound correspondences is put under a different "root". In my view, the ortodox model is inconsistent and divergent sound correspondences like in this case mean divergent word paths.

                      Our friend Bhr. is hardly an exponent of "orthodox PIE"; his extreme immobilist model, which precludes borrowing in pre-Roman times, demands the robotic reconstruction of PIE roots for individual words. This is nothing new; John Rhys mechanically postulated a root in *kW- to explain anything beginning with p- as P-Celtic.

                      > > You're right, I forgot to mention it: hippos < *sikWkWo-? *yikWkWo- ? The cluster -pp- is very uncommon in Greek. As a variant of -kk-, we can compare it to lakkos < *lak-wo-s.
                      > >
                      > Actually, Gamkrelidze-Ivanov mentioned a possible protoform *s´ik´wo-, where *s´ is their own "compact sibilant" (a rough counterpart of my own sound law regarding post-velar fricatives), giving *s- > h- in Greek and zero elsewhere, but I find little support for it.
                      >
                      > In my opinion, Greek -pp- doesn't come from *-kWkW- (which I find rather absurd) but from *-kWw- resulting from regressive assimilation of *-k´w-. Hence *-kWw- > *-pw- > -pp- by reduction and progressive assimilation (possibly these two changes were synchronic) as in *-k´w- > -kk-.

                      In my opinion, the Macedonian royal name Bilippos (Hellenized as Phil-) points to Mac. as the source of _hippos_, the internal consonantism being PIE *-k^w- > centumized *-kW- > Ill.-Lus. *-kkW- > P-Ill. *-kp- > Mac. *-pp- (with the -kp-stage actually attested in Lukpeio on Paeonian coins, as mentioned earlier).

                      DGK
                    • Joao S. Lopes
                      ... In my opinion, the Macedonian royal name Bilippos (Hellenized as Phil-) points to Mac. as the source of _hippos_, the internal consonantism being PIE
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 25, 2013
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                        > >
                        > Actually, Gamkrelidze-Ivanov mentioned a possible protoform *s´ik´wo-, where *s´ is their own "compact sibilant" (a rough counterpart of my own sound law regarding post-velar fricatives), giving *s- > h- in Greek and zero elsewhere, but I find little support for it.
                        >
                        > In my opinion, Greek -pp- doesn't come from *-kWkW- (which I find rather absurd) but from *-kWw- resulting from regressive assimilation of *-k´w-. Hence *-kWw- > *-pw- > -pp- by reduction and progressive assimilation (possibly these two changes were synchronic) as in *-k´w- > -kk-.

                        In my opinion, the Macedonian royal name Bilippos (Hellenized as Phil-) points to Mac. as the source of _hippos_, the internal consonantism being PIE *-k^w- > centumized *-kW- > Ill.-Lus. *-kkW- > P-Ill. *-kp- > Mac. *-pp- (with the -kp-stage actually attested in Lukpeio on Paeonian coins, as mentioned earlier).

                        It sounds interesting, but the presence of *iqo in Mycenean points to an age older than Macedonian-Greek contact, doesn't it? Unless we infer that Mycenean *hiqwos and Macedonian *hikpos/*hippos share  a common source.

                        JS Lopes
                      • dgkilday57
                        ... I think Mycenaean borrowed *hikkWos from Old Illyrian, writing it in Linear B as _i-qo_. Later in K-Illyrian, *-kkW- was reduced to *-kk-, and Epidaurian
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 26, 2013
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                          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > Actually, Gamkrelidze-Ivanov mentioned a possible protoform *s´ik´wo-, where *s´ is their own "compact sibilant" (a rough counterpart of my own sound law regarding post-velar fricatives), giving *s- > h- in Greek and zero elsewhere, but I find little support for it.
                          > >
                          > > In my opinion, Greek -pp- doesn't come from *-kWkW- (which I find rather absurd) but from *-kWw- resulting from regressive assimilation of *-k´w-. Hence *-kWw- > *-pw- > -pp- by reduction and progressive assimilation (possibly these two changes were synchronic) as in *-k´w- > -kk-.
                          >
                          > In my opinion, the Macedonian royal name Bilippos (Hellenized as Phil-) points to Mac. as the source of _hippos_, the internal consonantism being PIE *-k^w- > centumized *-kW- > Ill.-Lus. *-kkW- > P-Ill. *-kp- > Mac. *-pp- (with the -kp-stage actually attested in Lukpeio on Paeonian coins, as mentioned earlier).
                          >
                          > It sounds interesting, but the presence of *iqo in Mycenean points to an age older than Macedonian-Greek contact, doesn't it? Unless we infer that Mycenean *hiqwos and Macedonian *hikpos/*hippos share  a common source.
                          >
                          I think Mycenaean borrowed *hikkWos from Old Illyrian, writing it in Linear B as _i-qo_. Later in K-Illyrian, *-kkW- was reduced to *-kk-, and Epidaurian borrowed _ikkos_. Messapic probably had the same form (actually *ikkas with *a < *o), since _-ikkos_ occurs in Tarentine personal names. Attic _hippos_ in this view represents an independent borrowing from Macedonian. It is noteworthy that the aspiration fails in the name _Leukippos_, but not in the adjective _tethrippos_ 'four-horsed'. Probably the name was borrowed and indicates the weakness of the aspiration (resulting from PIE *h1e- > Ill.-Lus. *hi-) in (Old) Macedonian, while the adjective was formed within Attic.

                          Sicel _ipne:_ (oxytone) 'saddle', if native, points to the language being P-Illyrian (or P-Lusitanian), and shows that this group did NOT undergo the Kluge-Stokes assimilation, so my earlier conjecture about Mac. _Perdikkas_ (as *per-dik^-nos 'ausgezeichnet, outstanding') must be rejected (but *per-dik^-wos in the same sense is acceptable).

                          DGK
                        • Joao S. Lopes
                          In Iliad, land of Tricca, Nurse of proud steeds , could Trikka bear a suffix -ikka, horse ? Perhaps *Tri-h1ek^w-eh2 place of three horses , or
                          Message 12 of 16 , Feb 26, 2013
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                            In Iliad, "land of Tricca, Nurse of proud steeds", could Trikka bear a suffix -ikka, "horse"? Perhaps *Tri-h1ek^w-eh2 "place of three horses", or *Dru-h1ek^w-h2 "place of  strong horses", cf. Drvaspa ?

                            JS Lopes



                            De: dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>
                            Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                            Enviadas: Terça-feira, 26 de Fevereiro de 2013 22:49
                            Assunto: Re: [tied] Greek hippos < ek^wos... or not?

                             


                            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > Actually, Gamkrelidze-Ivanov mentioned a possible protoform *s´ik´wo-, where *s´ is their own "compact sibilant" (a rough counterpart of my own sound law regarding post-velar fricatives), giving *s- > h- in Greek and zero elsewhere, but I find little support for it.
                            > >
                            > > In my opinion, Greek -pp- doesn't come from *-kWkW- (which I find rather absurd) but from *-kWw- resulting from regressive assimilation of *-k´w-. Hence *-kWw- > *-pw- > -pp- by reduction and progressive assimilation (possibly these two changes were synchronic) as in *-k´w- > -kk-.
                            >
                            > In my opinion, the Macedonian royal name Bilippos (Hellenized as Phil-) points to Mac. as the source of _hippos_, the internal consonantism being PIE *-k^w- > centumized *-kW- > Ill.-Lus. *-kkW- > P-Ill. *-kp- > Mac. *-pp- (with the -kp-stage actually attested in Lukpeio on Paeonian coins, as mentioned earlier).
                            >
                            > It sounds interesting, but the presence of *iqo in Mycenean points to an age older than Macedonian-Greek contact, doesn't it? Unless we infer that Mycenean *hiqwos and Macedonian *hikpos/*hippos share  a common source.
                            >
                            I think Mycenaean borrowed *hikkWos from Old Illyrian, writing it in Linear B as _i-qo_. Later in K-Illyrian, *-kkW- was reduced to *-kk-, and Epidaurian borrowed _ikkos_. Messapic probably had the same form (actually *ikkas with *a < *o), since _-ikkos_ occurs in Tarentine personal names. Attic _hippos_ in this view represents an independent borrowing from Macedonian. It is noteworthy that the aspiration fails in the name _Leukippos_, but not in the adjective _tethrippos_ 'four-horsed'. Probably the name was borrowed and indicates the weakness of the aspiration (resulting from PIE *h1e- > Ill.-Lus. *hi-) in (Old) Macedonian, while the adjective was formed within Attic.

                            Sicel _ipne:_ (oxytone) 'saddle', if native, points to the language being P-Illyrian (or P-Lusitanian), and shows that this group did NOT undergo the Kluge-Stokes assimilation, so my earlier conjecture about Mac. _Perdikkas_ (as *per-dik^-nos 'ausgezeichnet, outstanding') must be rejected (but *per-dik^-wos in the same sense is acceptable).

                            DGK



                          • dgkilday57
                            ... Oops! My second conjecture on _Perdikkas_ is NOT acceptable, since I have already assumed *-k^w- Mac. -pp-. My THIRD conjecture is *per-dik^-jos, with
                            Message 13 of 16 , Feb 27, 2013
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                              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > [DGK]
                              > > In my opinion, the Macedonian royal name Bilippos (Hellenized as Phil-) points to Mac. as the source of _hippos_, the internal consonantism being PIE *-k^w- > centumized *-kW- > Ill.-Lus. *-kkW- > P-Ill. *-kp- > Mac. *-pp- (with the -kp-stage actually attested in Lukpeio on Paeonian coins, as mentioned earlier).
                              > >
                              > > It sounds interesting, but the presence of *iqo in Mycenean points to an age older than Macedonian-Greek contact, doesn't it? Unless we infer that Mycenean *hiqwos and Macedonian *hikpos/*hippos share  a common source.
                              > >
                              > I think Mycenaean borrowed *hikkWos from Old Illyrian, writing it in Linear B as _i-qo_. Later in K-Illyrian, *-kkW- was reduced to *-kk-, and Epidaurian borrowed _ikkos_. Messapic probably had the same form (actually *ikkas with *a < *o), since _-ikkos_ occurs in Tarentine personal names. Attic _hippos_ in this view represents an independent borrowing from Macedonian. It is noteworthy that the aspiration fails in the name _Leukippos_, but not in the adjective _tethrippos_ 'four-horsed'. Probably the name was borrowed and indicates the weakness of the aspiration (resulting from PIE *h1e- > Ill.-Lus. *hi-) in (Old) Macedonian, while the adjective was formed within Attic.
                              >
                              > Sicel _ipne:_ (oxytone) 'saddle', if native, points to the language being P-Illyrian (or P-Lusitanian), and shows that this group did NOT undergo the Kluge-Stokes assimilation, so my earlier conjecture about Mac. _Perdikkas_ (as *per-dik^-nos 'ausgezeichnet, outstanding') must be rejected (but *per-dik^-wos in the same sense is acceptable).
                              >
                              Oops! My second conjecture on _Perdikkas_ is NOT acceptable, since I have already assumed *-k^w- > Mac. -pp-. My THIRD conjecture is *per-dik^-jos, with *-k^j- > *-kkj- > -kk-, more or less as in West Germanic /j/-gemination.

                              DGK
                            • dgkilday57
                              ... The iota has hidden quantity in the acc. _Trikke:n_ (Il. 2:729), but the monokappatic gen. _Trike:s_ (Il. 4:202) requires a short iota by scansion: la:o:n,
                              Message 14 of 16 , Feb 28, 2013
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                                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > In Iliad, "land of Tricca, Nurse of proud steeds", could Trikka bear a suffix -ikka, "horse"? Perhaps *Tri-h1ek^w-eh2 "place of three horses", or *Dru-h1ek^w-h2 "place of strong horses", cf. Drvaspa ?
                                >
                                The iota has hidden quantity in the acc. _Trikke:n_ (Il. 2:729), but the monokappatic gen. _Trike:s_ (Il. 4:202) requires a short iota by scansion:

                                la:o:n, /hoi hoi he/ponto Tri/ke:s ex /hippobo/toio.
                                -- / -^^ / -^^ / -- / -^^ / -(^)

                                A mute plus liquid seldom makes position in Homer, but if it did here and _Tri:ke:s_ were read, what follows _hipp-_ would be metrically impossible. We must conclude that the iota is short, and the geminate is genuine, shortened metri gratia in 4:202 just as _Odusseus_ sometimes becomes _Oduseus_. (Inscriptions, such as the pure Attic _Olutteus_ on vases, show that the geminate is genuine in this personal name.)

                                If the place-name _Trikke:_ indeed had long iota, it might be understood as a bahuvri:hi 'three-horse(d)', Old Illyrian *tri-hikkWa: > K-Illyrian *tri:kka(:), and one might draw some interesting conclusions. Unfortunately I see no principled way to infer that the iota was ever long, so this place-name probably has nothing to do with 'horse'. The epithet 'horse-nourishing' is fairly common in Homer and distinguishes rich lands from poor ones, the latter characteristic of most of Greece proper, which could not support horse-breeding.

                                DGK
                              • Joao S. Lopes
                                Thanks for the reply and explanations. JS Lopes ________________________________ De: dgkilday57 Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Enviadas:
                                Message 15 of 16 , Mar 1 3:12 PM
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                                  Thanks for the reply and explanations.

                                  JS Lopes



                                  De: dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>
                                  Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                                  Enviadas: Quinta-feira, 28 de Fevereiro de 2013 22:38
                                  Assunto: Re: [tied] Greek hippos < ek^wos... or not?

                                   


                                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" wrote:
                                  >
                                  > In Iliad, "land of Tricca, Nurse of proud steeds", could Trikka bear a suffix -ikka, "horse"? Perhaps *Tri-h1ek^w-eh2 "place of three horses", or *Dru-h1ek^w-h2 "place of strong horses", cf. Drvaspa ?
                                  >
                                  The iota has hidden quantity in the acc. _Trikke:n_ (Il. 2:729), but the monokappatic gen. _Trike:s_ (Il. 4:202) requires a short iota by scansion:

                                  la:o:n, /hoi hoi he/ponto Tri/ke:s ex /hippobo/toio.
                                  -- / -^^ / -^^ / -- / -^^ / -(^)

                                  A mute plus liquid seldom makes position in Homer, but if it did here and _Tri:ke:s_ were read, what follows _hipp-_ would be metrically impossible. We must conclude that the iota is short, and the geminate is genuine, shortened metri gratia in 4:202 just as _Odusseus_ sometimes becomes _Oduseus_. (Inscriptions, such as the pure Attic _Olutteus_ on vases, show that the geminate is genuine in this personal name.)

                                  If the place-name _Trikke:_ indeed had long iota, it might be understood as a bahuvri:hi 'three-horse(d)', Old Illyrian *tri-hikkWa: > K-Illyrian *tri:kka(:), and one might draw some interesting conclusions. Unfortunately I see no principled way to infer that the iota was ever long, so this place-name probably has nothing to do with 'horse'. The epithet 'horse-nourishing' is fairly common in Homer and distinguishes rich lands from poor ones, the latter characteristic of most of Greece proper, which could not support horse-breeding.

                                  DGK



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