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Re: [tied] Italo-Celtic dialect base words?

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  • Tavi
    ... Just trying to keep up, it would be actually the other way around. In fact, the NEC cognate I quoted before would point to an original *Xw-. A similar case
    Message 1 of 77 , Feb 22, 2013
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      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <sean@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Many years ago Miguel suggested that the tribal name Volcae meant 'Wolves'. That may well be, if they belonged to the Illyro-Lusitanian branch and used the *wl.kWo- form. They were associated with the Silva Hercy:nia, and if Proto-Celtic borrowed Volcan *Perku:nia: as *Ferku:nia:, that would explain the lack of *p...kW assimilation.
      >
      > Why do you think so many words were borrowed? You use that excuse whenever any ev. doesn't fit your rules; don't you think you could just be wrong? f > xW would have hapened in Proto-Celtic long before this borrowing by one group in one place long after Celtic split up.
      >
      > > Of course I could be wrong, but I do not recall proposing *f > *xW, and I cannot follow your argument about it.
      > >
      > > Since in Proto-Celtic p > h- / -w- / -x- , p > f > xW first is most likely. You didn't propose that part; I'm talking about your proposal that (after that change?) a borrowing with p- was adapted as f- and arguing against it since all branches make it clear xW existed within them and the name of a place wouldn't have been retained from Proto-Celtic all the way down to the language of one group who THEN happened to live next to the place where the people they supposedly borrowed it from still lived and talked. There's plenty else to say about this, but that's enough.
      >
      > Your *f > *xW is unsupported, regardless of your pretzel-like rhetoric.
      >
      Just trying to keep up, it would be actually the other way around. In fact, the NEC cognate I quoted before would point to an original *Xw-.

      A similar case would be IE *penkWe- '5' ~ NEC *fimk?wV 'fist'. If I'm not mistaken, Petr suggested that Starostin's f should be replaced by X\W or XW.
    • Tavi
      ... not mistaken, Petr suggested that Starostin s f should be replaced by X W or XW. ... based? ...
      Message 77 of 77 , Mar 9, 2013
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:
        >
        > A similar case would be IE *penkWe- '5' ~ NEC *fimk?wV 'fist'. If I'm
        not mistaken, Petr suggested that Starostin's f should be replaced by
        X\W or XW.
        >
        > > What are the attested words on which this NEC reconstruction is
        based?
        > >
        > See here:
        http://newstar.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/cau\
        c/caucet&text_number=1008&root=config
        >
        > > Very interesting. The phoneme *f is relatively rare, and the
        correspondences for this lexeme are regular. That does not exclude
        borrowing from an IE source after the breakup of Proto-NEC.
        >
        > I strongly disagree. The NEC word means 'fist', a meaning which in IE
        only appears in a *derivated form* found in Germanic, Slavic and Baltic
        (the latter with initial k-), while the bare lexeme shifted to '5' at an
        early date, probably in the Neolithic as other numerals. So in my
        opinion this would be another case where a word from a language ancestor
        to IE is preserved in NEC.
        >
        The cases of IE 'bear' and Germanic 'horse' would also fall in this
        cathegory.

        Unlike Starostin and Bengtson, I don't think all the proto-NEC lexicon
        is from Vasco-Caucasian (aka Sino-Caucasian), as apparently there's a
        significant portion whose origin is Eurasiatic (aka Nostratic). Also
        Yeniseian seems to be in a similar (or even worse) position, being a
        geographical outlayer. As a rule of thumb, I consider a root to be VC if
        it's attested in at least two of the following families: NEC, Burushaski
        and Sino-Tibetan.
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