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Re: Raven words

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  • stlatos
    ... That seems to work better with a rec. in which D is some kind of l or l (alt. like: kumuri = small cloud Fn; kovol = cloud Mv; homály = darkness Hng; ).
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 21, 2013
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      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, johnvertical@... wrote:
      >
      > Background: I've been exploring some evidence for a possible unknown Uralic substrate in Finnic. One feature of this hypothetical substrate would be *w > pp after a liquid, e.g. _kärppä_ "stoat" vs. PU *käDwä "weasel".
      >


      That seems to work better with a rec. in which D is some kind of l or l' (alt. like:

      kumuri = small cloud Fn; kovol = cloud Mv; homály = darkness Hng;

      ).


      The ev. here:

      http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/query.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=\data\uralic\uralet

      isn't for

      *käDwä "weasel"

      but

      *kaDwa "female (of small fur animals)"


      Saam (Lapp): gaDfe (N) 'mustela erminea femina'
      Mari (Cheremis): kol'á 'mouse'
      Khanty (Ostyak): köjëN
      Mansi (Vogul): kal'
      Hungarian: hölgy 'Dame; (altung.) Braut, Liebste; Hermelin'
      etc.

      seems to req. * kwalyaNxwa \ kwadyäxwa \ etc., if both rel. would make * kwaryamFwa \ kwaryäppwa "stoat" (with Kw \ Pw alt.), with no specific support on whether all the alt. was in PU or its daughters.


      If < substrate, which I doubt, the pos. seem to be:

      harmo = ermine OHG; carmun = weasel Rh-Ro; s^armuõ Lith

      rel. to other words for 'grey', some with -w- not -m-, but meaning the same, etc.


      If n > l , maybe:

      kounábi G; kunadhe = marten Al;

      rel. to (probl. borrowed):

      kuná R;



      If original -l- , maybe:

      galée: = weasel G;

      which COULD be < * gal-xY-wá:x or sim

      rel. to (probl.):

      gli:s = dormouse L; girí- = mouse S;


      However, other words like:

      * karma \ karpa \ karwa = fly

      * kurma \ kurpa \ kurwa = snipe

      make 1 substrate being the source of all this, which I doubt, less pos.


      All seem to come from the same rec. (of phon. not sem.):

      * kwalyaNxwa \ kuwalyämkwa \ etc.

      which makes most sense if many older C all fell together (q > k , etc.).
    • stlatos
      ... That range of meanings seems to fit best w: kaçi:ká:- (f) = young weasel RV S; akHis -i- = weasel Ar; etc. rel. to (probl.): ka:kom ka:kum = stoat MP;
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 21, 2013
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <sean@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, johnvertical@ wrote:
        > >
        > > Background: I've been exploring some evidence for a possible unknown Uralic substrate in Finnic. One feature of this hypothetical substrate would be *w > pp after a liquid, e.g. _kärppä_ "stoat" vs. PU *käDwä "weasel".

        > The ev. here:
        >
        > http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/query.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=\data\uralic\uralet
        >
        > isn't for
        >
        > *käDwä "weasel"
        >
        > but
        >
        > *kaDwa "female (of small fur animals)"
        >
        >
        > Saam (Lapp): gaDfe (N) 'mustela erminea femina'
        > Mari (Cheremis): kol'á 'mouse'
        > Khanty (Ostyak): köjëN
        > Mansi (Vogul): kal'
        > Hungarian: hölgy 'Dame; (altung.) Braut, Liebste; Hermelin'
        > etc.


        That range of meanings seems to fit best w:

        kaçi:ká:- (f) = young weasel RV S; akHis -i- = weasel Ar;
        etc.

        rel. to (probl.):

        ka:kom \ ka:kum = stoat MP; ? >> qa:qum Tk; ? >> kHakHum \ kngum Ar;

        w kHakHum apparently < * kHakYH(y)um w assim. to either both k or kY (shown by some modern forms like c^'ässEum ), but a direct rel. isn't clear.
      • stlatos
        ... Sim., kHakHum kngum apparently ë / , etc.).
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 22, 2013
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          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <sean@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <sean@> wrote:

          >
          > That range of meanings seems to fit best w:
          >
          > kaçi:ká:- (f) = young weasel RV S; akHis -i- = weasel Ar;
          > etc.
          >
          > rel. to (probl.):
          >
          > ka:kom \ ka:kum = stoat MP; ? >> qa:qum Tk; ? >> kHakHum \ kngum Ar;
          >
          > w kHakHum apparently < * kHakYH(y)um w assim. to either both k or kY (shown by some modern forms like c^'ässEum ), but a direct rel. isn't clear.
          >


          Sim., kHakHum \ kngum apparently < opt. assim. to kHakHum \ * kHumkHum early (before u>ë / , etc.).
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