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Re: Raven words

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  • Tavi
    ... In my (not humble) opinion, the word oak is a substrate loanword from some language spoken in Paleolithic Europe.
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 16, 2013
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      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
      >
      > This is wonderful for an Indo-European list: onomatopoetics instead of
      > etymology, while as for *perkwu-s one likes a chain of loans and the
      > other one detects optional rules...
      >
      In my (not humble) opinion, the word 'oak' is a substrate loanword from some language spoken in Paleolithic Europe.
    • dgkilday57
      ... Then what is _parkat.i:_ f. Ficus infectoria doing in Sanskrit? DGK
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 18, 2013
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
        > >
        > > This is wonderful for an Indo-European list: onomatopoetics instead of
        > > etymology, while as for *perkwu-s one likes a chain of loans and the
        > > other one detects optional rules...
        > >
        > In my (not humble) opinion, the word 'oak' is a substrate loanword from some language spoken in Paleolithic Europe.
        >
        Then what is _parkat.i:_ f. 'Ficus infectoria' doing in Sanskrit?

        DGK
      • Tavi
        ... This word, of which I wasn t aware before, is rather interesting, although it doesn t contradict my own hypothesis.
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 20, 2013
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          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
          >
          > > > This is wonderful for an Indo-European list: onomatopoetics instead of
          > > > etymology, while as for *perkwu-s one likes a chain of loans and the
          > > > other one detects optional rules...
          > >
          > > In my (not humble) opinion, the word 'oak' is a substrate loanword from some language spoken in Paleolithic Europe.
          >
          > Then what is _parkat.i:_ f. 'Ficus infectoria' doing in Sanskrit?
          >
          This word, of which I wasn't aware before, is rather interesting, although it doesn't contradict my own hypothesis. http://newstar.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ie/pokorny&text_number=1500&root=config

          The meaning 'oak', also found as a substrate relic in NEC *Xwy:rkV 'tree, oak-tree', points to an origin in SE Europe. The NEC form also provides us with valuable information about the original initial cluster. http://newstar.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/cauc/caucet&text_number=+149&root=config
        • dgkilday57
          ... Old Norse has a rather large number of terms for raven , presumably based on various characteristics of the bird. If the raven was viewed as carving
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 20, 2013
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            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, johnvertical@... wrote:
            >
            > Background: I've been exploring some evidence for a possible unknown Uralic substrate in Finnic. One feature of this hypothetical substrate would be *w > pp after a liquid, e.g. _kärppä_ "stoat" vs. PU *käDwä "weasel".
            >
            > One of the words of this shape in Finnish is _korppi_ "raven". This is normally analyzed as a loan from Scandinavian _korp_, and I see no obsctacle to this - this replaced the common Finnic word for the bird, *karnV, which is probably inherited Uralic. I however believe the Sc. word does not have a credible IE etymology (after all, k-p makes the very premise suspicious).
            >

            Old Norse has a rather large number of terms for 'raven', presumably based on various characteristics of the bird. If the raven was viewed as carving flesh from carcasses with its beak, it might have acquired the epithet 'carver'. The verb 'carve' itself, Old English _ceorfan_, is referred to PIE *gerbH-. Thanks to Kluge's Law, this root could underlie ON _korpr_ st. m. 'raven' if we could formally justify a zero-grade agent *gr.bH-nó- 'carver', becoming regularly Early Proto-Germanic *kurppa-, later *korpa- with /a/-umlaut and degemination after a long syllable, whence ON _korpr_.

            Such justification is apparently provided by OE _flocc_ st. m. 'company, troop, flock', which can similarly continue a zero-grade agent *plug^H-nó- > *flukka- > *flokka-, formed to the root *pleug^H- 'to travel quickly, fly' underlying OE _fle:ogan_ 'to fly'. A military unit must move quickly to be effective, and a flock of birds flies together.

            Incidentally, one way of explaining (West) Gmc. *plo:ga- st. m. 'plough' is with an /o/-grade *plóug^Hos 'quick mover, flyer', Belgic *plauga-, later (East) Belgic *plo:ga-, borrowed into WGmc (or Proto-Old Saxon) in the specific sense 'quick-moving ard, wheeled ard', which appeared to fly over the fields in comparison to the conventional ard. With the old slow ard obsolescent, *plo:ga- became the standard term for the implement, with or without wheels, in this view.

            > So, the question is: can an IE original such as *korwV be reconstructed, which would allow a loaning into Scandinavian from the hypothetical substrate? Latin _corvus_ suggests something along these lines. I see this has been compared with Lithuanian _karvelis_ "dove", but the semantic difference is a bit wide here, I think.
            >
            > Original *krowV might also work, given that some IE loans in Finnic show a metathesis CrVCV > CVrCV for resolving initial clusters. This brings _crow_ and its relatives in mind, though no original 1st-syllable *o seems possible to assume here (NWGmc *kraawoo).
            >

            I have no solution to this.

            DGK
          • stlatos
            ... That seems to work better with a rec. in which D is some kind of l or l (alt. like: kumuri = small cloud Fn; kovol = cloud Mv; homály = darkness Hng; ).
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 21, 2013
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              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, johnvertical@... wrote:
              >
              > Background: I've been exploring some evidence for a possible unknown Uralic substrate in Finnic. One feature of this hypothetical substrate would be *w > pp after a liquid, e.g. _kärppä_ "stoat" vs. PU *käDwä "weasel".
              >


              That seems to work better with a rec. in which D is some kind of l or l' (alt. like:

              kumuri = small cloud Fn; kovol = cloud Mv; homály = darkness Hng;

              ).


              The ev. here:

              http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/query.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=\data\uralic\uralet

              isn't for

              *käDwä "weasel"

              but

              *kaDwa "female (of small fur animals)"


              Saam (Lapp): gaDfe (N) 'mustela erminea femina'
              Mari (Cheremis): kol'á 'mouse'
              Khanty (Ostyak): köjëN
              Mansi (Vogul): kal'
              Hungarian: hölgy 'Dame; (altung.) Braut, Liebste; Hermelin'
              etc.

              seems to req. * kwalyaNxwa \ kwadyäxwa \ etc., if both rel. would make * kwaryamFwa \ kwaryäppwa "stoat" (with Kw \ Pw alt.), with no specific support on whether all the alt. was in PU or its daughters.


              If < substrate, which I doubt, the pos. seem to be:

              harmo = ermine OHG; carmun = weasel Rh-Ro; s^armuõ Lith

              rel. to other words for 'grey', some with -w- not -m-, but meaning the same, etc.


              If n > l , maybe:

              kounábi G; kunadhe = marten Al;

              rel. to (probl. borrowed):

              kuná R;



              If original -l- , maybe:

              galée: = weasel G;

              which COULD be < * gal-xY-wá:x or sim

              rel. to (probl.):

              gli:s = dormouse L; girí- = mouse S;


              However, other words like:

              * karma \ karpa \ karwa = fly

              * kurma \ kurpa \ kurwa = snipe

              make 1 substrate being the source of all this, which I doubt, less pos.


              All seem to come from the same rec. (of phon. not sem.):

              * kwalyaNxwa \ kuwalyämkwa \ etc.

              which makes most sense if many older C all fell together (q > k , etc.).
            • stlatos
              ... That range of meanings seems to fit best w: kaçi:ká:- (f) = young weasel RV S; akHis -i- = weasel Ar; etc. rel. to (probl.): ka:kom ka:kum = stoat MP;
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 21, 2013
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                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <sean@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, johnvertical@ wrote:
                > >
                > > Background: I've been exploring some evidence for a possible unknown Uralic substrate in Finnic. One feature of this hypothetical substrate would be *w > pp after a liquid, e.g. _kärppä_ "stoat" vs. PU *käDwä "weasel".

                > The ev. here:
                >
                > http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/query.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=\data\uralic\uralet
                >
                > isn't for
                >
                > *käDwä "weasel"
                >
                > but
                >
                > *kaDwa "female (of small fur animals)"
                >
                >
                > Saam (Lapp): gaDfe (N) 'mustela erminea femina'
                > Mari (Cheremis): kol'á 'mouse'
                > Khanty (Ostyak): köjëN
                > Mansi (Vogul): kal'
                > Hungarian: hölgy 'Dame; (altung.) Braut, Liebste; Hermelin'
                > etc.


                That range of meanings seems to fit best w:

                kaçi:ká:- (f) = young weasel RV S; akHis -i- = weasel Ar;
                etc.

                rel. to (probl.):

                ka:kom \ ka:kum = stoat MP; ? >> qa:qum Tk; ? >> kHakHum \ kngum Ar;

                w kHakHum apparently < * kHakYH(y)um w assim. to either both k or kY (shown by some modern forms like c^'ässEum ), but a direct rel. isn't clear.
              • stlatos
                ... Sim., kHakHum kngum apparently ë / , etc.).
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 22, 2013
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                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <sean@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <sean@> wrote:

                  >
                  > That range of meanings seems to fit best w:
                  >
                  > kaçi:ká:- (f) = young weasel RV S; akHis -i- = weasel Ar;
                  > etc.
                  >
                  > rel. to (probl.):
                  >
                  > ka:kom \ ka:kum = stoat MP; ? >> qa:qum Tk; ? >> kHakHum \ kngum Ar;
                  >
                  > w kHakHum apparently < * kHakYH(y)um w assim. to either both k or kY (shown by some modern forms like c^'ässEum ), but a direct rel. isn't clear.
                  >


                  Sim., kHakHum \ kngum apparently < opt. assim. to kHakHum \ * kHumkHum early (before u>ë / , etc.).
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