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Raven words

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  • caotope
    Background: I ve been exploring some evidence for a possible unknown Uralic substrate in Finnic. One feature of this hypothetical substrate would be *w pp
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 13, 2013
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      Background: I've been exploring some evidence for a possible unknown Uralic substrate in Finnic. One feature of this hypothetical substrate would be *w > pp after a liquid, e.g. _kärppä_ "stoat" vs. PU *käDwä "weasel".

      One of the words of this shape in Finnish is _korppi_ "raven". This is normally analyzed as a loan from Scandinavian _korp_, and I see no obsctacle to this - this replaced the common Finnic word for the bird, *karnV, which is probably inherited Uralic. I however believe the Sc. word does not have a credible IE etymology (after all, k-p makes the very premise suspicious).

      So, the question is: can an IE original such as *korwV be reconstructed, which would allow a loaning into Scandinavian from the hypothetical substrate? Latin _corvus_ suggests something along these lines. I see this has been compared with Lithuanian _karvelis_ "dove", but the semantic difference is a bit wide here, I think.

      Original *krowV might also work, given that some IE loans in Finnic show a metathesis CrVCV > CVrCV for resolving initial clusters. This brings _crow_ and its relatives in mind, though no original 1st-syllable *o seems possible to assume here (NWGmc *kraawoo).

      _j.
    • Rick McCallister
      In Spanish, cuervo crow is the everyday word for raven but the archaic word is cornejo. known to all who read El Cid in school. I m sure Tavi and João can
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 13, 2013
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        In Spanish, cuervo "crow" is the everyday word for "raven" but the archaic word is cornejo. known to all who read El Cid in school. I'm sure Tavi and João can fill us in on the rest of Ibero-Romance.

        --- On Wed, 2/13/13, johnvertical@... <johnvertical@...> wrote:

        From: johnvertical@... <johnvertical@...>
        Subject: [tied] Raven words
        To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013, 10:18 AM

         

        Background: I've been exploring some evidence for a possible unknown Uralic substrate in Finnic. One feature of this hypothetical substrate would be *w > pp after a liquid, e.g. _kärppä_ "stoat" vs. PU *käDwä "weasel".

        One of the words of this shape in Finnish is _korppi_ "raven". This is normally analyzed as a loan from Scandinavian _korp_, and I see no obsctacle to this - this replaced the common Finnic word for the bird, *karnV, which is probably inherited Uralic. I however believe the Sc. word does not have a credible IE etymology (after all, k-p makes the very premise suspicious).

        So, the question is: can an IE original such as *korwV be reconstructed, which would allow a loaning into Scandinavian from the hypothetical substrate? Latin _corvus_ suggests something along these lines. I see this has been compared with Lithuanian _karvelis_ "dove", but the semantic difference is a bit wide here, I think.

        Original *krowV might also work, given that some IE loans in Finnic show a metathesis CrVCV > CVrCV for resolving initial clusters. This brings _crow_ and its relatives in mind, though no original 1st-syllable *o seems possible to assume here (NWGmc *kraawoo).

        _j.

      • Joao S. Lopes
        In Portuguese, corvo raven and gralha crow . JS Lopes ________________________________ De: Rick McCallister Para:
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 13, 2013
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          In Portuguese, corvo "raven" and gralha "crow".

          JS Lopes



          De: Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...>
          Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
          Enviadas: Quarta-feira, 13 de Fevereiro de 2013 14:45
          Assunto: Re: [tied] Raven words

           
          In Spanish, cuervo "crow" is the everyday word for "raven" but the archaic word is cornejo. known to all who read El Cid in school. I'm sure Tavi and João can fill us in on the rest of Ibero-Romance.

          --- On Wed, 2/13/13, johnvertical@... <johnvertical@...> wrote:

          From: johnvertical@... <johnvertical@...>
          Subject: [tied] Raven words
          To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013, 10:18 AM

           
          Background: I've been exploring some evidence for a possible unknown Uralic substrate in Finnic. One feature of this hypothetical substrate would be *w > pp after a liquid, e.g. _kärppä_ "stoat" vs. PU *käDwä "weasel".

          One of the words of this shape in Finnish is _korppi_ "raven". This is normally analyzed as a loan from Scandinavian _korp_, and I see no obsctacle to this - this replaced the common Finnic word for the bird, *karnV, which is probably inherited Uralic. I however believe the Sc. word does not have a credible IE etymology (after all, k-p makes the very premise suspicious).

          So, the question is: can an IE original such as *korwV be reconstructed, which would allow a loaning into Scandinavian from the hypothetical substrate? Latin _corvus_ suggests something along these lines. I see this has been compared with Lithuanian _karvelis_ "dove", but the semantic difference is a bit wide here, I think.

          Original *krowV might also work, given that some IE loans in Finnic show a metathesis CrVCV > CVrCV for resolving initial clusters. This brings _crow_ and its relatives in mind, though no original 1st-syllable *o seems possible to assume here (NWGmc *kraawoo).

          _j.



        • Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
          ... (...) Bhr.: there s no restriction to *DeRD-roots; even *DED is attested, but in any case an intervening */R/ removes the suspicious phonotactic
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 13, 2013
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            2013/2/13, johnvertical@... <johnvertical@...>:
            > Background: I've been exploring some evidence for a possible unknown Uralic
            > substrate in Finnic. One feature of this hypothetical substrate would be *w
            >> pp after a liquid, e.g. _kärppä_ "stoat" vs. PU *käDwä "weasel".
            >
            > One of the words of this shape in Finnish is _korppi_ "raven". This is
            > normally analyzed as a loan from Scandinavian _korp_, and I see no obsctacle
            > to this - this replaced the common Finnic word for the bird, *karnV, which
            > is probably inherited Uralic. I however believe the Sc. word does not have a
            > credible IE etymology (after all, k-p makes the very premise suspicious).
            >
            (...)

            Bhr.: there's no restriction to *DeRD-roots; even *DED is attested,
            but in any case an intervening */R/ removes the 'suspicious'
            phonotactic environment; so, *glb- is a welcome reconstruction
          • Tavi
            ... Uralic substrate in Finnic. One feature of this hypothetical substrate would be *w pp after a liquid, e.g. _kärppä_ stoat vs. PU *käDwä weasel .
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 14, 2013
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              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, johnvertical@... wrote:
              >
              > Background: I've been exploring some evidence for a possible unknown Uralic substrate in Finnic. One feature of this hypothetical substrate would be *w > pp after a liquid, e.g. _kärppä_ "stoat" vs. PU *käDwä "weasel".
              >
              > One of the words of this shape in Finnish is _korppi_ "raven". This is normally analyzed as a loan from Scandinavian _korp_, and I see no obsctacle to this - this replaced the common Finnic word for the bird, *karnV, which is probably inherited Uralic. I however believe the Sc. word does not have a credible IE etymology (after all, k-p makes the very premise suspicious).
              >
              > So, the question is: can an IE original such as *korwV be reconstructed, which would allow a loaning into Scandinavian from the hypothetical substrate? Latin _corvus_ suggests something along these lines. I see this has been compared with Lithuanian _karvelis_ "dove", but the semantic difference is a bit wide here, I think.
              >
              In my opinion, both Latin and Scandinavian are substrate loanwords related to Semitic *GVrVb- 'crow, raven', with syncope in the second syllable. The latter could be in turn linked to *Garb- 'sunset, evening' < Afrasian *Garub- 'darkness' (HSED 1008) , thus reflecting the color of the bird. As in the case of other lexical correspondences relative to names of animals (not only birds), the source language(s) must have been spoken in Neolithic Europe.

              http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62007
            • Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
              ... Sorry, I meant *grb
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 14, 2013
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                2013/2/13, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...>:
                > 2013/2/13, johnvertical@... <johnvertical@...>:
                >> Background: I've been exploring some evidence for a possible unknown
                >> Uralic
                >> substrate in Finnic. One feature of this hypothetical substrate would be
                >> *w
                >>> pp after a liquid, e.g. _kärppä_ "stoat" vs. PU *käDwä "weasel".
                >>
                >> One of the words of this shape in Finnish is _korppi_ "raven". This is
                >> normally analyzed as a loan from Scandinavian _korp_, and I see no
                >> obsctacle
                >> to this - this replaced the common Finnic word for the bird, *karnV,
                >> which
                >> is probably inherited Uralic. I however believe the Sc. word does not have
                >> a
                >> credible IE etymology (after all, k-p makes the very premise suspicious).
                >>
                > (...)
                >
                > Bhr.: there's no restriction to *DeRD-roots; even *DED is attested,
                > but in any case an intervening */R/ removes the 'suspicious'
                > phonotactic environment; so, *glb- is a welcome reconstruction
                >
                Sorry, I meant *grb
              • Etherman23
                Isn t this an obvious candidate for onomatopoeia?
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 14, 2013
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                  Isn't this an obvious candidate for onomatopoeia?

                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, johnvertical@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Background: I've been exploring some evidence for a possible unknown Uralic substrate in Finnic. One feature of this hypothetical substrate would be *w > pp after a liquid, e.g. _kärppä_ "stoat" vs. PU *käDwä "weasel".
                  >
                  > One of the words of this shape in Finnish is _korppi_ "raven". This is normally analyzed as a loan from Scandinavian _korp_, and I see no obsctacle to this - this replaced the common Finnic word for the bird, *karnV, which is probably inherited Uralic. I however believe the Sc. word does not have a credible IE etymology (after all, k-p makes the very premise suspicious).
                  >
                  > So, the question is: can an IE original such as *korwV be reconstructed, which would allow a loaning into Scandinavian from the hypothetical substrate? Latin _corvus_ suggests something along these lines. I see this has been compared with Lithuanian _karvelis_ "dove", but the semantic difference is a bit wide here, I think.
                  >
                  > Original *krowV might also work, given that some IE loans in Finnic show a metathesis CrVCV > CVrCV for resolving initial clusters. This brings _crow_ and its relatives in mind, though no original 1st-syllable *o seems possible to assume here (NWGmc *kraawoo).
                  >
                  > _j.
                  >
                • Tavi
                  ... Spanish cornejo (m.) is dogwood , a diminutive from Latin cornus. The name of the bird is corneja (f.), a diminutive from Latin corni:x. Also Catalan
                  Message 8 of 17 , Feb 16, 2013
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                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > In Spanish, cuervo "crow" is the everyday word for "raven" but the archaic word is cornejo. known to all who read El Cid in school. I'm sure Tavi and João can fill us in on the rest of Ibero-Romance.
                    >
                    Spanish cornejo (m.) is 'dogwood', a diminutive from Latin cornus. The name of the bird is corneja (f.), a diminutive from Latin corni:x.

                    Also Catalan gralla (f.) refers either to Corvus frugileus (Spanish grajo, graja) or Corvus monedula (Spanish grajilla). This word is likely of onomatopoeyic origin, as in Catalan it also designates a woowind instrument. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gralla_%28instrument%29
                  • Joao S. Lopes
                    All raven and crow words seem to be onomatopoeic in their remote origin, kra- gra-. JS Lopes ________________________________ De: Tavi
                    Message 9 of 17 , Feb 16, 2013
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                      All raven and crow words seem to be onomatopoeic in their remote origin, kra- gra-.


                      JS Lopes



                      De: Tavi <oalexandre@...>
                      Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                      Enviadas: Sábado, 16 de Fevereiro de 2013 13:43
                      Assunto: Re: [tied] Raven words

                       
                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister wrote:
                      >
                      > In Spanish, cuervo "crow" is the everyday word for "raven" but the archaic word is cornejo. known to all who read El Cid in school. I'm sure Tavi and João can fill us in on the rest of Ibero-Romance.
                      >
                      Spanish cornejo (m.) is 'dogwood', a diminutive from Latin cornus. The name of the bird is corneja (f.), a diminutive from Latin corni:x.

                      Also Catalan gralla (f.) refers either to Corvus frugileus (Spanish grajo, graja) or Corvus monedula (Spanish grajilla). This word is likely of onomatopoeyic origin, as in Catalan it also designates a woowind instrument. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gralla_%28instrument%29



                    • Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
                      This is wonderful for an Indo-European list: onomatopoetics instead of etymology, while as for *perkwu-s one likes a chain of loans and the other one detects
                      Message 10 of 17 , Feb 16, 2013
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                        This is wonderful for an Indo-European list: onomatopoetics instead of
                        etymology, while as for *perkwu-s one likes a chain of loans and the
                        other one detects optional rules...

                        2013/2/16, Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...>:
                        > All raven and crow words seem to be onomatopoeic in their remote origin,
                        > kra- gra-.
                        >
                        >
                        > JS Lopes
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > De: Tavi <oalexandre@...>
                        > Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                        > Enviadas: Sábado, 16 de Fevereiro de 2013 13:43
                        > Assunto: Re: [tied] Raven words
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister wrote:
                        >>
                        >> In Spanish, cuervo "crow" is the everyday word for "raven" but the archaic
                        >> word is cornejo. known to all who read El Cid in school. I'm sure Tavi and
                        >> João can fill us in on the rest of Ibero-Romance.
                        >>
                        > Spanish cornejo (m.) is 'dogwood', a diminutive from Latin cornus. The name
                        > of the bird is corneja (f.), a diminutive from Latin corni:x.
                        >
                        > Also Catalan gralla (f.) refers either to Corvus frugileus (Spanish grajo,
                        > graja) or Corvus monedula (Spanish grajilla). This word is likely of
                        > onomatopoeyic origin, as in Catalan it also designates a woowind instrument.
                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gralla_%28instrument%29
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Tavi
                        ... In my (not humble) opinion, the word oak is a substrate loanword from some language spoken in Paleolithic Europe.
                        Message 11 of 17 , Feb 16, 2013
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                          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > This is wonderful for an Indo-European list: onomatopoetics instead of
                          > etymology, while as for *perkwu-s one likes a chain of loans and the
                          > other one detects optional rules...
                          >
                          In my (not humble) opinion, the word 'oak' is a substrate loanword from some language spoken in Paleolithic Europe.
                        • dgkilday57
                          ... Then what is _parkat.i:_ f. Ficus infectoria doing in Sanskrit? DGK
                          Message 12 of 17 , Feb 18, 2013
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                            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > This is wonderful for an Indo-European list: onomatopoetics instead of
                            > > etymology, while as for *perkwu-s one likes a chain of loans and the
                            > > other one detects optional rules...
                            > >
                            > In my (not humble) opinion, the word 'oak' is a substrate loanword from some language spoken in Paleolithic Europe.
                            >
                            Then what is _parkat.i:_ f. 'Ficus infectoria' doing in Sanskrit?

                            DGK
                          • Tavi
                            ... This word, of which I wasn t aware before, is rather interesting, although it doesn t contradict my own hypothesis.
                            Message 13 of 17 , Feb 20, 2013
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                              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > > This is wonderful for an Indo-European list: onomatopoetics instead of
                              > > > etymology, while as for *perkwu-s one likes a chain of loans and the
                              > > > other one detects optional rules...
                              > >
                              > > In my (not humble) opinion, the word 'oak' is a substrate loanword from some language spoken in Paleolithic Europe.
                              >
                              > Then what is _parkat.i:_ f. 'Ficus infectoria' doing in Sanskrit?
                              >
                              This word, of which I wasn't aware before, is rather interesting, although it doesn't contradict my own hypothesis. http://newstar.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ie/pokorny&text_number=1500&root=config

                              The meaning 'oak', also found as a substrate relic in NEC *Xwy:rkV 'tree, oak-tree', points to an origin in SE Europe. The NEC form also provides us with valuable information about the original initial cluster. http://newstar.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/cauc/caucet&text_number=+149&root=config
                            • dgkilday57
                              ... Old Norse has a rather large number of terms for raven , presumably based on various characteristics of the bird. If the raven was viewed as carving
                              Message 14 of 17 , Feb 20, 2013
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                                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, johnvertical@... wrote:
                                >
                                > Background: I've been exploring some evidence for a possible unknown Uralic substrate in Finnic. One feature of this hypothetical substrate would be *w > pp after a liquid, e.g. _kärppä_ "stoat" vs. PU *käDwä "weasel".
                                >
                                > One of the words of this shape in Finnish is _korppi_ "raven". This is normally analyzed as a loan from Scandinavian _korp_, and I see no obsctacle to this - this replaced the common Finnic word for the bird, *karnV, which is probably inherited Uralic. I however believe the Sc. word does not have a credible IE etymology (after all, k-p makes the very premise suspicious).
                                >

                                Old Norse has a rather large number of terms for 'raven', presumably based on various characteristics of the bird. If the raven was viewed as carving flesh from carcasses with its beak, it might have acquired the epithet 'carver'. The verb 'carve' itself, Old English _ceorfan_, is referred to PIE *gerbH-. Thanks to Kluge's Law, this root could underlie ON _korpr_ st. m. 'raven' if we could formally justify a zero-grade agent *gr.bH-nó- 'carver', becoming regularly Early Proto-Germanic *kurppa-, later *korpa- with /a/-umlaut and degemination after a long syllable, whence ON _korpr_.

                                Such justification is apparently provided by OE _flocc_ st. m. 'company, troop, flock', which can similarly continue a zero-grade agent *plug^H-nó- > *flukka- > *flokka-, formed to the root *pleug^H- 'to travel quickly, fly' underlying OE _fle:ogan_ 'to fly'. A military unit must move quickly to be effective, and a flock of birds flies together.

                                Incidentally, one way of explaining (West) Gmc. *plo:ga- st. m. 'plough' is with an /o/-grade *plóug^Hos 'quick mover, flyer', Belgic *plauga-, later (East) Belgic *plo:ga-, borrowed into WGmc (or Proto-Old Saxon) in the specific sense 'quick-moving ard, wheeled ard', which appeared to fly over the fields in comparison to the conventional ard. With the old slow ard obsolescent, *plo:ga- became the standard term for the implement, with or without wheels, in this view.

                                > So, the question is: can an IE original such as *korwV be reconstructed, which would allow a loaning into Scandinavian from the hypothetical substrate? Latin _corvus_ suggests something along these lines. I see this has been compared with Lithuanian _karvelis_ "dove", but the semantic difference is a bit wide here, I think.
                                >
                                > Original *krowV might also work, given that some IE loans in Finnic show a metathesis CrVCV > CVrCV for resolving initial clusters. This brings _crow_ and its relatives in mind, though no original 1st-syllable *o seems possible to assume here (NWGmc *kraawoo).
                                >

                                I have no solution to this.

                                DGK
                              • stlatos
                                ... That seems to work better with a rec. in which D is some kind of l or l (alt. like: kumuri = small cloud Fn; kovol = cloud Mv; homály = darkness Hng; ).
                                Message 15 of 17 , Feb 21, 2013
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                                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, johnvertical@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Background: I've been exploring some evidence for a possible unknown Uralic substrate in Finnic. One feature of this hypothetical substrate would be *w > pp after a liquid, e.g. _kärppä_ "stoat" vs. PU *käDwä "weasel".
                                  >


                                  That seems to work better with a rec. in which D is some kind of l or l' (alt. like:

                                  kumuri = small cloud Fn; kovol = cloud Mv; homály = darkness Hng;

                                  ).


                                  The ev. here:

                                  http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/query.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=\data\uralic\uralet

                                  isn't for

                                  *käDwä "weasel"

                                  but

                                  *kaDwa "female (of small fur animals)"


                                  Saam (Lapp): gaDfe (N) 'mustela erminea femina'
                                  Mari (Cheremis): kol'á 'mouse'
                                  Khanty (Ostyak): köjëN
                                  Mansi (Vogul): kal'
                                  Hungarian: hölgy 'Dame; (altung.) Braut, Liebste; Hermelin'
                                  etc.

                                  seems to req. * kwalyaNxwa \ kwadyäxwa \ etc., if both rel. would make * kwaryamFwa \ kwaryäppwa "stoat" (with Kw \ Pw alt.), with no specific support on whether all the alt. was in PU or its daughters.


                                  If < substrate, which I doubt, the pos. seem to be:

                                  harmo = ermine OHG; carmun = weasel Rh-Ro; s^armuõ Lith

                                  rel. to other words for 'grey', some with -w- not -m-, but meaning the same, etc.


                                  If n > l , maybe:

                                  kounábi G; kunadhe = marten Al;

                                  rel. to (probl. borrowed):

                                  kuná R;



                                  If original -l- , maybe:

                                  galée: = weasel G;

                                  which COULD be < * gal-xY-wá:x or sim

                                  rel. to (probl.):

                                  gli:s = dormouse L; girí- = mouse S;


                                  However, other words like:

                                  * karma \ karpa \ karwa = fly

                                  * kurma \ kurpa \ kurwa = snipe

                                  make 1 substrate being the source of all this, which I doubt, less pos.


                                  All seem to come from the same rec. (of phon. not sem.):

                                  * kwalyaNxwa \ kuwalyämkwa \ etc.

                                  which makes most sense if many older C all fell together (q > k , etc.).
                                • stlatos
                                  ... That range of meanings seems to fit best w: kaçi:ká:- (f) = young weasel RV S; akHis -i- = weasel Ar; etc. rel. to (probl.): ka:kom ka:kum = stoat MP;
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Feb 21, 2013
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                                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <sean@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, johnvertical@ wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Background: I've been exploring some evidence for a possible unknown Uralic substrate in Finnic. One feature of this hypothetical substrate would be *w > pp after a liquid, e.g. _kärppä_ "stoat" vs. PU *käDwä "weasel".

                                    > The ev. here:
                                    >
                                    > http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/query.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=\data\uralic\uralet
                                    >
                                    > isn't for
                                    >
                                    > *käDwä "weasel"
                                    >
                                    > but
                                    >
                                    > *kaDwa "female (of small fur animals)"
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Saam (Lapp): gaDfe (N) 'mustela erminea femina'
                                    > Mari (Cheremis): kol'á 'mouse'
                                    > Khanty (Ostyak): köjëN
                                    > Mansi (Vogul): kal'
                                    > Hungarian: hölgy 'Dame; (altung.) Braut, Liebste; Hermelin'
                                    > etc.


                                    That range of meanings seems to fit best w:

                                    kaçi:ká:- (f) = young weasel RV S; akHis -i- = weasel Ar;
                                    etc.

                                    rel. to (probl.):

                                    ka:kom \ ka:kum = stoat MP; ? >> qa:qum Tk; ? >> kHakHum \ kngum Ar;

                                    w kHakHum apparently < * kHakYH(y)um w assim. to either both k or kY (shown by some modern forms like c^'ässEum ), but a direct rel. isn't clear.
                                  • stlatos
                                    ... Sim., kHakHum kngum apparently ë / , etc.).
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Feb 22, 2013
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                                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <sean@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <sean@> wrote:

                                      >
                                      > That range of meanings seems to fit best w:
                                      >
                                      > kaçi:ká:- (f) = young weasel RV S; akHis -i- = weasel Ar;
                                      > etc.
                                      >
                                      > rel. to (probl.):
                                      >
                                      > ka:kom \ ka:kum = stoat MP; ? >> qa:qum Tk; ? >> kHakHum \ kngum Ar;
                                      >
                                      > w kHakHum apparently < * kHakYH(y)um w assim. to either both k or kY (shown by some modern forms like c^'ässEum ), but a direct rel. isn't clear.
                                      >


                                      Sim., kHakHum \ kngum apparently < opt. assim. to kHakHum \ * kHumkHum early (before u>ë / , etc.).
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