Re: [tied] Re: On Greek anthro:pos 'man'
- On 31.01.2013 17:02, Francesco Brighenti wrote:
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Joao S. Lopes" wrote:
> [Greek kantharos 'beetle'] akin to Skt gandha- "smell", in a sense
> of stinky insect?
According to a number of philologists the Greek word kantharos has multiple meanings, among which are 'dung-beetle (Scarabaeus pilularius)', 'the Egyptian scarab beetle', and 'a sort of drinking-cup with two vertical handles and a deep, footed bowl'.Any direct connection between the 'beetle' and 'wine cup' meanings seems unlikely. However, both meanings of kantharos might be related to kantho:n and kanthe:lios, 'pack-ass'. The common factor linking kantharos as 'wine cup' with kantho:n 'ass' might be the typical high handles of the cup (called "ears" in Greek), similar to the ass's large ears. Likewise, between the dung-beetle (kantharos) and the ass (kantho:n) some sort of link runs, most probably mediated by the beetle's connection with dung (cf. also kanthis 'ass-dung'). In Aristophanes, Trygaeus, who rises to heaven on the back of a huge dung-beetle, addresses his mount as kantho:n ( 'ass'), and not as kantharos. According to an ancient Greek belief, beetles were produced from the bodies of asses. The error presumably arose from the beetle's alleged habit of laying eggs in asses' dung.
In the ultimate analysis, we are left with the Greek word kantho:n, itself of non-IE origin and, therefore, without an etymon.
As to the proposed comparison with Sanskrit gandha- 'smell' (RV), according to A. Lubotsky only the Proto-Indo-Iranian form of this root, *g(h)andh-/t- 'to smell', can be arrived at. The root has apparently no IE cognates. The vacillation dh/t in the PIIr. root (cf. RV gandh- vs. YAv. gain.ti- 'bad smell', an irregular correspondence in inlaut) strongly suggests borrowing -- perhaps from the language(s) of Bactria-Margiana?
probably the kentauros and kantaros are related to each other.... their phonetic appearance are striking appropriate and the meaning ..... well I would say there is something common in both since the mythological kentauros has been a mix of human with horse and the kantaros is a mix of donkey with horse, thus the common part is the horse, maybe there should be something to look for:)
So far I know the word is present in Turkish and Romanian but they are for sure borrowing from New Greek ( see tc katir, rom. catâr)
- The shortcoming is that this set of diachronic transformations has
no independent evidence. In itself it's neither good nor bad, but if
compared with a regular etymology like *h2ndhro-h3kw-o-s...
2013/4/9, Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...>:
> The relationship would not be through regular Greek. Perhaps some substratal
> non-Greek IE compound *h1ndHus-ro:po-. U dropped as in some Albanian and
> Armenian words; and -r- < -sr- or < rhotacism -s-, as possbile shifts. I'd
> guess *h1n-dHuh2s-h3oKW- > *anthuzoq-o > *anthuroqo- > anthropo-. If it was
> a "normal" Greek word, expected form would * a(n)thyops
> JS Lopes
> De: Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...>
> Para: email@example.com
> Enviadas: Terça-feira, 9 de Abril de 2013 10:14
> Assunto: Re: [tied] Re: On Greek anthro:pos 'man'
> /th/, /r/, /o:/, /p/ (and the absence of /u/, /h/, and /-s-/) would
> remain unexplained: too much for a six-phonemes lexical entry (final
> -os isn't diagnostic)
> 2013/4/9, Joao S. <josimo70@...>:
>> Could be Greek anthro:pos related to Hit. antuuahhas- / antuhs- 'man' <
>> *h1n-dHueh2-o:s, gen.sg. *h1n-dHuh2-s-os ? It would imply an Anatolic IE
>> substratum in Greece. Maybe Endymion also fits into this root.
>> JS Lopes
>> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@...>
>>> --- In email@example.com, Rick McCallister wrote:
>>> > Isn't Greek -nth- cognate to Anatolian -nd-???
>>> We (you & I) have discussed this in the past. See my post about Anna
>>> Morpurgo-Davies' arguments against the Pre-Greek substratum in Greek
>>> (IE) Anatolian or "para-Anatolian" at
>>> The regular reflex of the PIE *-went- suffix ('having X') is the
>>> cluster -nt- in Greek, and -nt-/-nd- in Anatolian. Why would Greek have
>>> borrowed names in -nd-/-nt- from an Anatolian or "para-Anatolian"
>>> substrate with operating a shift to -nth- against the expected -nd- or
>>> -nt- ?
>>> Also J. Chadwick ("Greek and Pre-Greek", TPhS 1969, pp. 80-98) stated
>>> the -nth- formations in mainland Greece and the Aegean Islands must
>>> represent the relics of a non-IE pre-Greek substrate, not of an
>>> (or "para-Anatolian") IE substrate possessed of -nd-/-nt- formations. He
>>> noted there are no known examples of one and the same IE-inherited root,
>>> common to both the Greek and Anatolian branches, to which is added the
>>> -nth- suffix in Greek and the -nt-/-nd- one in Anatolian.
>>> Kind regards,