Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

[tied] Re: bidet

Expand Messages
  • Tavi
    ... de ... euskomedia.org. It is lacking the map, and the diacritics do not all come out right (obviously a PDF made from a photocopy). Nevertheless it
    Message 1 of 206 , Jan 18, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" wrote:
      >
      > > A little correction: Although he studied the isoglosses shared by
      > > Aragonese and Bearnese, Elcock *never* posited a Pyrenaic substrate
      > > language (as he was reluctant to substrates in general), but he said
      > > that proposal was originally made by Saroïhandy, the pioneer of
      > > modern Aragonese studies.
      >
      > Was S.'s Pyrenaic substrate Vasconic or Romance?
      >
      > > I haven't read him, but perhaps the title of his article "Vestiges
      de
      > > phonétique iberienne en territoire roman" (1913) might tell us
      > > something.
      >
      > Thank you. I found a PDF copy of the paper (from RIEV 7:475-97) at
      euskomedia.org. It is lacking the map, and the diacritics do not all
      come out right (obviously a PDF made from a photocopy). Nevertheless it
      answers my question as "Vasconic". Saroi"handy considered the Basques
      to be descended from the Iberians (which is forgivable, since this was
      over a decade before Go'mez Moreno started making sense of the Iberian
      script).
      >
      But Paleo-Basque and Iberian could still be relatives, as shown by
      lexical isoglosses like the ones registered in the Aquitanian corpus,
      with Martinet's Law already going on (e.g. t- > h-).

      > He observed that the three valleys in the mountains of Oloron have
      _apelha_, _escupa_, etc., against common Bearnais _abelha_, _escuba_,
      etc., with similar retention of unvoiced stops in _capeza_, _napo_, etc.
      in the Aragonese of the valley of Tena and the upper Cinca basin. These
      dialects also show voicing of stops after resonants, including Germanic
      loanwords: _blanga_ for Bearn. _blanca_, _bango_ for Arag. _banco_.
      >
      That's right. All this is studied in Elcock's book, which also has a
      map.

      > This is what we have in most Basque dialects (but not
      Roncalo-Souletin). I think the best explanation is that these areas
      (Oloron, Tena, upper Cinca) were still Basque-speaking well into the
      Middle Ages. I see no point in postulating a distinct Pyrenaic Romance
      to explain S.'s data (although perhaps you have other facts pointing to
      one).
      >
      Precisely. As I mentioned before, the Pyrenaic treatment of -ll- (also
      found in Gascon and West Asturian and similar to the one of Sardinian
      and some South Italian dialects) isn't shared with Basque. But even more
      striking is the scarcity (or almost complete absence) of genuine Basque
      lexicon and toponymy when compared to the Romance ones. So whatever
      Paleo-Basque or Iberian dialects spoken there, they were extensively
      replaced by Latin at an early date. There're also abundant traces of a
      Romance language with a Bascoid substrate (later replaced by Catalan and
      Gascon) in the toponymy of NW Catalonia (Pallars, Ribagorza) and Aran,
      studied by Coromines and which would constitute the eastern flank of
      Pyrenaic.
    • oalexandre
      ... From a statistical point of view, *sreu-m- can be found in Balto-Slavic, Albanian, Greek, Celtic and Germanic, while *reuH-m- is only found in Germanic.
      Message 206 of 206 , Jul 3, 2014
      • 0 Attachment
        ---In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, <octavianoaf24@...> wrote :
        >
        From a statistical point of view, *sreu-m- can be found in Balto-Slavic, Albanian, Greek, Celtic and Germanic, while *reuH-m- is only found in Germanic. This would imply the former etymology is preferrable, although the loss of *s- should be still accounted for.
        >
        I meant "a purely statistical" and "seems preferrable".
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.