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Re: [tied] potto

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  • Joao S. Lopes
    Carioca pronnounce R- and -rr- the same way, and most of the Northern Brazilians. JS Lopes ________________________________ De: Rick McCallister
    Message 1 of 62 , Jan 8, 2013
      Carioca pronnounce R- and -rr- the same way, and most of the Northern Brazilians.

      JS Lopes



      De: Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...>
      Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
      Enviadas: Terça-feira, 8 de Janeiro de 2013 23:28
      Assunto: Re: [tied] potto

       
      And here's the problem. If you ask a non-velarizing Spanish or  Portuguese speaker to pronounce <r-> or <-rr-> they will trill strongly. You have to listen for a while. Most Latin American's do it very lightly but some do it strongly. It usually comes out as "American R" in consonant clusters but every once and a while you'll hear /bzhaso/ for <brazo>. Listen to your friends from the South when they're out of the office and aren't paying attention to their speech.

      --- On Tue, 1/8/13, Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...> wrote:

      From: Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...>
      Subject: Re: [tied] potto
      To: "cybalist@yahoogroups.com" <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 8:08 PM

       
      Yes, it's hard to me distinguish <h> from <R>. But I still can't imagine this -chr- sound in Brazil.



      De: Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...>
      Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
      Enviadas: Terça-feira, 8 de Janeiro de 2013 22:46
      Assunto: Re: [tied] potto

       
      I've heard both a strong trill and a relaxed assibilated trill from Paulistanos and Gaúchos (some, not all). The part of Argentina right next to Rio Grande do Sul is very famous for its strongly assibilated /rr/, Corrientinos are often called "Corzhentinos". The Gaúchos I've met sound a lot like them but with less assibilation.
      I'm guessing you use the Carioca /R/ and maybe don't hear the difference. Most Americans can't pick up the assibilated trill in Latin American Spanish until it's pointed out to them or they live in Latin America

      --- On Tue, 1/8/13, Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...> wrote:

      From: Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...>
      Subject: Re: [tied] potto
      To: "cybalist@yahoogroups.com" <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 7:34 PM

       
      My father family is from Southern Brazil and I'd never heard this pronounciation as "chr". Paulistanos, Gauchos and Cariocas pronounciate quatro "four" the same way, <kwatru>. the -rr- sounds different, with Cariocas pronounciating a velar R, so velarized that sounds like <h>, and Southern Brazilians pronounciating like -r- or a non-velarized -rr-.

      Joao S Lopes



      De: Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...>
      Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
      Enviadas: Terça-feira, 8 de Janeiro de 2013 22:00
      Assunto: Re: [tied] potto

       
      I've heard among Paulistanos and Gaúchos living in the US

      --- On Tue, 1/8/13, Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...> wrote:

      From: Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...>
      Subject: Re: [tied] potto
      To: "cybalist@yahoogroups.com" <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 9:14 AM

       
      For a lusophonous, c^r is almost unpronounceable.

      JS Lopes



      De: Brian M. Scott <bm.brian@...>
      Para: Joao S. Lopes <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
      Enviadas: Terça-feira, 8 de Janeiro de 2013 11:33
      Assunto: Re: [tied] potto

       
      At 5:12:53 AM on Tuesday, January 8, 2013, Joao S. Lopes
      wrote:

      > De: Rick McCallister gabaroo6958@...>

      >> Yes, in much of Latin American Spanish, sounds like
      >> chr- and sounds like zhr or shr- Costa Rica,
      >> Guatemala, Bogotá, parts of southern Mexico, of Chile and
      >> Argentina are famous for this pronunciation. I've read
      >> that this pronunciation also exists in some Portuguese
      >> dialects. It also supposedly exists in northern
      >> Vietnamese, Czech, Gaelic, etc.

      > In Portuguese, never, at least in Brazil. Is  this ch like
      > German ich?  

      No, English.

      Brian









    • Tavi
      ... not ... trisipu ... Which is more conservative than Hispano-Romance. It took me some time, but finally I ve got it straight: *pris´ipu *pis´ipru
      Message 62 of 62 , Feb 7, 2013
        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" wrote:
        >
        > In "*prisipu > trisipu > *drisipu > lizifru", what are the stages in
        > regard to metathesis? Since dr > lr > l-r is impossible or "highly
        > unlikely" to you, why did metathesis take place? You first said all
        > these were << pesebre, so did you first think it was p-r- > pr-0-
        > met.?
        >
        > > Since the Latin form has pr-, lizifru could actually derive from a
        > > methatesized form *pisipru akin to Spanish pesebre < *pesepre <
        > > *presepe.
        >
        > > I know ONE is methatesized (which depends on when/where borrowed),
        > > but that's the only dif. in env.; they're not from 2 kinds of Bq.
        >
        > > I don't like abbr., you know, but lizifru is structurally (although
        not
        > > phonetically) identical to Spanish pesebre (metathesized), while
        trisipu
        > > is akin to Aragonese presepe (non-metathesized). So the latter looks
        > > like a rather undigested loanword from Pyrenaic Romance.
        >
        Which is more conservative than Hispano-Romance. It took me some time,
        but finally I've got it straight: *pris´ipu > *pis´ipru >
        *Bis´ipru > lisiFru /lizifru/. There's no intermediate dental here,
        nor in the other cases where p-/b-/m- > *B- > l-.
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