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Re: [tied] Re: PIE suffix =t in food?

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  • Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
    A zero-grade reconstruction *h2/4lh{x}-u-t- is both very good and, notably, very Venetic ( non-Padanian is alas scarcely distinctive, since real or, if You
    Message 1 of 40 , Nov 1, 2012
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      A zero-grade reconstruction *h2/4lh{x}-u-t- is both very good and,
      notably, very Venetic ("non-Padanian" is alas scarcely distinctive,
      since real or, if You want, Adriatic Venetic is never attested in the
      Po Basin; "Cisalpine Venetic" would have the relative advantage to be
      in accordance with the majority of the evidence); it becomes
      non-Venetic only if one postulates (since it's a postulation) that it
      can't continue an /o/-grade (in Venetic it could).
      Surely neither You nor T. did invent invent non-Adriatic Venetic; I
      wrote "hypothetical", and Schwarz' priority doesn't affect its degree
      of hypotheticity

      2012/11/1, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:
      >
      >
      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
      > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> Do You postulate an /o/-grade or a hypothetical Sound Law */a/ > */o/
      >> in a hypothetical language like non-Venetic Venetic?
      >
      > Neither. Since Latin <caput> appears to contain zero-grade like <capere>
      > (full-grade <ce:pi:>, root *keh1p-, originally stative 'I hold up', whence
      > inceptive <capio:> 'I pick up, HEAVE'), I presume North Venetic *olut also
      > had zero-grade, the root being of the form *h2/4elh{x}- (i.e. /a/-colored
      > laryngeal anlaut, undetermined lar. auslaut).
      >
      > Note that Torsten and I did not invent non-Padanian Venetic. Ernst Schwarz
      > invoked it as a substrate to explain South German Fils/Vils and a few other
      > river-names, and while Hans Krahe disagreed with him on the river-names, he
      > was gracious enough to allow Schwarz to publish in BzNf.
      >
      > (But I suspect you already know all that.)
      >
      > DGK
      >
      >> 2012/10/30, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:
      >> >
      >> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@> wrote:
      >> >>
      >> >> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@> wrote:
      >> >> >
      >> >> > PIE *h2elut "beer" (Latin alu:men, English ale)
      >> >> >
      >> >> This is a Wanderwort referring to some fermented drink found in
      >> >> several
      >> >> languages:
      >> >> Georgian (a)ludi 'beer'
      >> >> Avar rid� 'whey'
      >> >> Tsezi orodu 'beer'
      >> >> Armenian ort 'wine' (possibly an Urartian loanword)
      >> >> Albaian ardhi 'wine'
      >> >> Basque ardao 'wine' < *arda-dano (second member from a root 'to
      >> >> drink')
      >> >
      >> > Finnish/Estonian <olut> suggests that Germanic was not the immediate
      >> > source,
      >> > but another IE language provided the word to both Finnic and Germanic.
      >> > Since Torsten is on vacation, I will be the one to suggest Venetic.
      >> > The
      >> > structure is possibly parallel to Latin <caput> 'head', and the root
      >> > perhaps
      >> > means 'froth, foam' as in <Alwin> and a few other river-names. Gothic
      >> > loanwords occur in the Caucasus but I cannot say whether that is the
      >> > immediate source of the Georgian word listed above.
      >> >
      >> > DGK
      >
      >
      >
    • stlatos
      ... That s only a problem if they re related, which I doubt. Instead, * kwasya-z Kvasir = (wise Van formed from spit of gods, killed by dwarves who mixed
      Message 40 of 40 , Dec 5, 2012
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, johnvertical@... wrote:
        >

        > > > > But the Gmc. shift *-o- > *-a- had already occurred (otherwise Fi. *-oov- from Early PGmc *-oHw-, no?)
        > > >
        > > > Loaning before laryngeal loss would probably predict *-okk- or possibly *-ohv-. It sounds like you're thinking of the reconstruction of Proto-Uralic *-VxC- for Finnic *-VVC-, but this has actually been explained otherwise recently; and at any rate vocalization there would have been a much too ancient development to be fed by Germanic loans.
        > >
        > > I was thinking (tacitly) of MPF *-aaw- from EPGmc *-aHw-, regardless of the origin of NATIVE Finnic *-VVC-.
        >
        > Anyway, no, I don't think there would be any reason to expect that as a substitution.
        >
        >
        > > > It would seem so, yes, but I'm not following how that matters for the aav~aww layer?
        > >
        > > I made the tacit assumption that PGmc laryngeals lasted about equally long in different positions, which is unwarranted. Odd things can happen with laryngeals.
        >
        > Certainly. The original _olut_ "beer" even has a very curious doublet _kalja_ "ale" which seems older by certain features but younger by others.
        >


        That's only a problem if they're related, which I doubt. Instead, * kwasya-z > Kvasir = (wise Van formed from spit of gods, killed by dwarves who mixed his blood w honey to ferment into Mead of Poetry) ON; which most likely first meant the Mead of Poetry itself (rel. to ca:seus = cheese L; ) .


        The -l- could be from contamination < olut, but more likely is another ex. of the changes like s* > !* > l* I've mentioned.
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