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Re: [tied] Lat. gladius and Sorothaptic

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  • dgkilday57
    ... The other example I know of other land is Alessio s explanation of by haplology from Paleo-Umbrian *Etro-rous-ja: and certainly Etruscans and
    Message 1 of 45 , Aug 6, 2012
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      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
      >
      > 2012/8/4, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:
      > (...)
      > > With characteristic modesty, I submit that Ligurian substrate theory may be
      > > capable of explaining the voiced onset of <gladius>, <glo:ria>, and the West
      > > Romance *gattu- 'cat' which largely prevailed outside of central Gaul. My
      > > working hypothesis is that Gallia Propria was conquered by P-Celts,
      > > originating in N Iberia, who passed through Aquitania and poured across the
      > > Garonne in search of greener pastures. The pre-Celtic IE-speakers in S and
      > > SE Gaul were principally Ligures; those in NW Gaul were principally Veneti.
      > > To the north, the Belgae had superposed themselves upon the Veneti and
      > > Ligures. The eastern Belgae in NE Gaul were Gallicized in pre-Roman times;
      > > the western Belgae in Belgica Propria were not.
      > >
      > > The immediate pre-Latin substrate in most of northern Italy was Gaulish, but
      > > this language had not been established here as long as it had been in
      > > central Gaul. Milan itself was established by Gauls, but the pre-Gaulish
      > > substrate in NW Italy was Ligurian. The characteristic Lig. suffix *-asca:
      > > is frequent in the French departments east of the Rhône as well, indicating
      > > that here too Ligures preceded Gauls. The notice by Livy (5:34) makes the
      > > Bituriges the de facto leaders of the expanding Gauls during the reign of
      > > Tarquinius Priscus (early 6th cent. BCE). That is, Bourges was the
      > > effective capital of Gaul at the time, and this area had presumably been
      > > Gallicized in the 7th cent. or earlier. But east of the Rhône, Ligures kept
      > > their identity for several more centuries, and Gaulish settlement occurred
      > > at a much slower pace. Even today, Provence is a notoriously poor part of
      > > France, and incoming Gaulish settlers would be likely to grab lands west of
      > > the Rhône if they could. Indeed, the Provençal Gaulish tribal name
      > > Allobroges 'Otherlanders' suggests that for a considerable time most Gauls
      > > regarded Provence as 'the other land' across the Rhône, inhabited by poor
      > > and backward Ligures rather than Gauls.
      >
      > *Bhr.: or simply 'the other land', without any reference to language

      The other example I know of 'other land' is Alessio's explanation of <Etru:ria> by haplology from Paleo-Umbrian *Etro-rous-ja: and certainly Etruscans and Umbrians spoke different languages. And the only justification I know of for the Allobroges to self-identify as 'Otherlanders' is the one I have given.

      > > Nevertheless Gaulish settlers did
      > > trickle in to create a new tribe, the Allobroges, defined by geography
      > > instead of ancestry.
      > >
      > > It is reasonable to suppose that here, to the west and south of the western
      > > Alps, Ligurian exerted a significant influence on the local Gaulish, which
      > > we might term Liguro-Gallic, just as we use the term Gallo-Latin to denote
      > > the Latin which was significantly influenced by Gaulish. Now, French
      > > <cabaret> and <cabriolet> (obviously not inherited the usual way from Latin)
      > > have been borrowed into Milanese as <gabaré> and <gabriolé>. French is
      > > noted for allowing very little aspiration with word-initial tenues. I
      > > hypothesize that the borrowing of Fr. /k/ as Milan. /g/ in word-initial
      > > position reflects a phonetic discrepancy going back to pre-Roman times.
      >
      > *Bhr.: How do You explain <gabaré> and <gabriolé>? They cannot have
      > been borrowed before the Romans; Your supposed /k/ > /g/ cannot have
      > survived till modern times, because every other French word and name
      > with /k/ has /k/ in Milanese and this latter language doesn't show
      > [kH], so <gabaré> and <gabriolé> can neither have their /g/ by
      > interlinguistic phonology nor by tradition

      What else is there? Mind-beams from flying saucers? The only real objection you have is absence of [kH] in Milanese, and all that means is that my preliminary suggestion regarding the interlinguistic borrowing mechanism is over-simplified. The words with /k/ ~ /k/ need not have gone directly from French to Milanese.

      > > That is, central Gaulish dialects, which due to rapid conquest had undergone
      > > very little Ligurian (or Venetic) influence, allowed very little aspiration
      > > with word-initial tenues, particularly /k/. But Ligurian allowed
      > > considerable aspiration here, initial /k/ being sounded as [kH],
      >
      > *Bhr.: Independent evidence required, please.

      This is a working hypothesis, as clearly labeled above. Sheesh.

      > Exstant Celtic languages exhibit word-initial [kH] for /k/ (note that
      > Cymry are *Kom-mroges, not *Allo-); Cisalpine and Alpine Romance /k/
      > is rendered by /g/ by Germans, cf. Alamannic Goms (Oberwallis) <
      > Franco-Provençal *Kontsi < Lat. *Conca), Göschenen = Casnotta

      Extant Celtic languages are Insular, and attested some 2400 years after the presumed borrowings from Gaulish to Ligurian. I am aware of the Gemse-phenomenon (involving _Upper_ German), so perhaps my theory can find an improved mechanism in this direction.

      > > so that
      > > Gaul. /k/, a pure [k] even initially, sounded more like /g/ than /k/ to
      > > Ligurian ears. Thus when the Ligures east of the Rhône and south of the
      > > Alps borrowed words from the first wave of Gaulish settlers, *k- became *g-,
      > > but of course native Ligurian words retained *k- (pronounced [kH-]). As
      > > more Gauls settled among these Ligures, effecting a slow conquest over
      > > several generations, their own Gaulish became Liguricized as Liguro-Gallic,
      > > with *k- in words corresponding to those in which Ligures had maintained
      > > native *k-, but *g- in words which Ligures had borrowed from Gaulish words
      > > with *k-.
      > >
      > > With this explanatory mechanism, I can dispense with my earlier makeshift,
      > > Late Greek *káttos as an intermediary between (Gallo-)Latin <cattus> and
      > > WRom *gattu-. Instead, I presume that *kattos m. and *katta: f. 'cat',
      > > whatever their ultimate source, were established in central Gaul, and
      > > introduced to Ligurian (and Liguro-Gallic) as *gattos and *gatta:, whence
      > > (several centuries later) Vulgar Latin *gattus and *gatta, at home in
      > > Provence, and otherwise spreading from NW Italy (perhaps on Genovese ships
      > > for rodent control), but not overcoming the /k/-forms entrenched in central
      > > Gaul. Late Latin <cattus> and <catta> in this view were borrowed (as
      > > literary terms) from central Gallo-Latin, and the epicene usage in Baruch
      > > 6:21 might not be genuinely archaic, but simply analogical after the
      > > behavior of <damma> 'fallow deer'. (...)
      >
      > *Bhr.: Gamkrelidze - Ivanov 1984: 599-601 = 1995: I 513-515 analyze
      > Pokorny's *kat-o- 'young animal' (1959: 534) as *k'hh3-t-Ho-s (=
      > traditional *k'h3-t-Hos) and Trumper 2001: 233-234 (John Bassett
      > Trumper, "Frammenti di un "Vocabolario Calabro": nuove ricerche
      > lessico-semantiche per un'inchiesta regionale", in "La dialettologia
      > oggi fra tradizione e nuove metodologie" - Atti del Convegno
      > Internazionale Pisa 10-12 Fabbraio 2000, a cura di Alberto Zamboni,
      > Patrizia Del Puente, Maria Teresa Vigolo, Pisa: Edizioni ETS, XIII,
      > 531 p., pp. 207-241) proposes 'acute, clever" from √k'eh3(y)-
      > 'sharpen' (Pokorny 1959: 541-542, LIV2 319-320).
      > Under these assumptions, cattus and Celtic *kattos are from
      > *k'h3-t-wo-s resp. *k'h3-t-nó-s; Germanic *kattus, *kattō can be from
      > PIE *k'h3-ot-nú-s, *k'h3-ot-wáh2/4; Late Latin gattus would then be
      > Celtic *ga:ttos < PIE *k'h3-o:t-nó-s

      I do not share your enthusiasm for such contrivances. I am reminded of Meringer's explanation of 'plough' as inherited Germanic. It might look formally plausible but it fails to fit the chronological and geographical data.

      DGK
    • Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
      ... ——————————————————————————————————— Thank You very much indeed! So, while OProv. glai
      Message 45 of 45 , Sep 10, 2012
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        2012/8/8, Ton Sales <ton.sales@...>:
        > I've been examining in detail what I told you Coromines had to say about
        > gladius, and I now see I was completely misled. When he says the word
        > may come directly from a Sorothaptic *klauiios he's not speaking of
        > Celtic kladios (> Lat. gladius > Cat. gladi) but of a postulated origin
        > *glavius for French glaive. This is after he notes that in Catalan
        > there's gladi/glasi and also glavi, and in Occitan there are both
        > glaziand glavi, but that in French there is only glaive. He assumes the
        > first is the Gallicism gladius (from Celtic kladios, he says) while the
        > second is --plausibly-- the (independent) Sorothaptic word that he
        > relates to the Baltic names for the sword he mentions. He sees, or
        > seeks, no other point in common for the two words. That leaves out the
        > question you're interested in: when does exactly the k- in Celtic
        > kladios becomes the g- in the Latin Celticism gladius. Coromines doesn't
        > comment about that, but then it is also clear that another k > g shift
        > demands explanation: the one in Sorothaptic *klauiios to the Latin
        > *glavius.
        >
        > One riddle wrapped in another, as Churchill would say. Regards from
        > Barcelona.
        >
        > Ton
        >
        ———————————————————————————————————

        Thank You very much indeed!

        So, while OProv. glai is the regular outcome of Latin gladius and
        OProv. gladi can (!) be explained as learned form, OProv. glazi would
        continue *gladiyo-; on the other hand, Gallo-Romance types like French
        glaive (Cambr. Ps. 36,14 gladive), MFrench glage, and OProv. glaujol
        reflect *gladibo-, *glabjo- or*glawjo- respectively, in any case
        considerably different formations, surely not from gladius. For this
        reasons I assume it’s safer to operate with at least two different
        Gaulish words, *gladibo-s and *glawjo-s, maybe also *glabjo-s and
        gladiyo-s, just as we have at least four Insular Celtic lexical types,
        *kladibo-s for OIr. and maybe Welsh, *kladi:-mo-s for Breton and maybe
        Mod. Ir., *kladi:-byo-s for Breton, *kladiyo-s for MW, possibly also
        *kladimo-s for Welsh and Irish, *kladiyomo-s as well for Irish,
        *kladiyobos for OIr.:

        OIr. claideb, MIr. claidhiomh, claidium, Mod. Ir. claidheamh
        [kʰlaijə̃v] (cf. also the phrase claidheamh mór ‘great sword’ > Engl.
        claymore)
        MW cledyf, cleddeu, cledd, plural cledyfeu (clefydeu), cleddyddeu,
        cleddyddav, Mod. Welsh cleddyf, cleddau, pl. cleddyfau, older
        cleddyfawr
        Corn. cledhe, clethe, pl. clethythyow, clythythow
        MBret. clezef(f), clezeu, clezeuf, Mod. Br. kleze, klezeñv, Vannes
        kleañ, pl. kleañnier

        Mod. Ir., Mod. Br. klezeñv and Vannetais show nasalization, therefore
        *kladimo-s or *kladiyomo-s are the best reconstruction, while
        *kladibos or *kladiyobos is better for OIr.
        MW pl. cleddyddeu and cleddyddav are the best piece of evidence for
        *kladiyo-s; cleddyf clearly continues *kladibo-s or *kladimo-s.
        Bret. /e/ < */a/ wouldn’t have taken place before resisting short /i/,
        therefore the palatal vowel in the middle of the word must procede
        from long */i:/, therefore *kladi:-byo-s (cf. *-byo- in Gallo-Latin
        uidubium = MIr. fidbha ‘bill-hook’) and *kladi:-mo-s for klezeñv,
        Vannes kleañ.
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