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Re: [tied] A Wanderwort of Ultimate Luwian Or igin from the Root *bherg´- 'to shine'

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  • Rick McCallister
    Yes, but remember I m on chemo, so please be complete ________________________________ From: Tavi To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent:
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 6, 2012
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      Yes, but remember I'm on chemo, so please be complete

      From: Tavi <oalexandre@...>
      To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, August 6, 2012 6:11 AM
      Subject: Re: [tied] A Wanderwort of Ultimate Luwian Origin from the Root *bherg´- 'to shine'

       
      --- In mailto:cybalist%40yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > AS per a recent post, I do believe that the word is ultimate from IE
      BUT more likely via Afro-Asiatic to Italic. The Luvian > Etruscan thing
      works if you believe Etruscan to be some dialect of Luvian, but it
      patently is not.
      >
      Incidentally, this is precisely Woudhuizen's theory. But Beekes theory
      places the Etruscan homeland in NW Anatolian, the area around Troy, so
      it's likely Etruscan was the demotic language while Luwian was spoken by
      the ruling aristocracy.

      > It probably came via Phoenician.
      >
      But this is unsupported by linguistic and archaeological data.

      > BTW: It would be good to know when iron weapons first turn up in
      Etruria, that would help determine the source
      >
      Rick, have you heard of the Villanovian culture?



    • Tavi
      ... Oh, I m sorry to hear that. I hope you ll recover completely. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villanovan_culture If I m not mistaken, iron was introduced in
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 7, 2012
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > BTW: It would be good to know when iron weapons first turn up in
        > Etruria, that would help determine the source
        >
        > > Rick, have you heard of the Villanovian culture?
        >
        > Yes, but remember I'm on chemo, so please be complete
        >
        Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you'll recover completely.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villanovan_culture

        If I'm not mistaken, iron was introduced in Italy by Villanovan people,
        which according to most specialists are the direct ancestors of the
        historical Etruscans.
      • Rick McCallister
        As soon as you mentioned Villanovan, I uttered a Homeric (Simpson, that it) D oh! ________________________________ From: Tavi To:
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 7, 2012
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          As soon as you mentioned Villanovan, I uttered a Homeric (Simpson, that it) D'oh!

          From: Tavi <oalexandre@...>
          To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, August 7, 2012 9:35 AM
          Subject: Re: [tied] A Wanderwort of Ultimate Luwian Origin from the Root *bherg´- 'to shine'

           
          --- In mailto:cybalist%40yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > BTW: It would be good to know when iron weapons first turn up in
          > Etruria, that would help determine the source
          >
          > > Rick, have you heard of the Villanovian culture?
          >
          > Yes, but remember I'm on chemo, so please be complete
          >
          Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you'll recover completely.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villanovan_culture

          If I'm not mistaken, iron was introduced in Italy by Villanovan people,
          which according to most specialists are the direct ancestors of the
          historical Etruscans.



        • dgkilday57
          ... Careful please. The article notes the majority agreeing with Pallottino that Villanovan culture was ancestral to Etruscan civilization. This is not the
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 9, 2012
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            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > BTW: It would be good to know when iron weapons first turn up in
            > > Etruria, that would help determine the source
            > >
            > > > Rick, have you heard of the Villanovian culture?
            > >
            > > Yes, but remember I'm on chemo, so please be complete
            > >
            > Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you'll recover completely.
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villanovan_culture
            >
            > If I'm not mistaken, iron was introduced in Italy by Villanovan people,
            > which according to most specialists are the direct ancestors of the
            > historical Etruscans.

            Careful please. The article notes the majority agreeing with Pallottino that Villanovan culture was ancestral to Etruscan civilization. This is not the same as "Villanovan people" ancestral to the Etruscans introducing iron-working from outside of Italy.

            Villanovan culture comes from Urnfield culture, so one would expect their language to be Sorothaptic (or "Illyro-Lusitanian"), and this cannot be ancestral to the non-IE Etruscan language. Probably the Proto-Villanovan incomers practiced elite dominance with their superior technology, but were then largely assimilated like the Normans into the English.

            The Etruscan name of Bologna is Felsina, which I believe we can understand as based on IE *pels- 'rock, cliff, crag' (German <Fels>, Macedonian <Pella>, Mac.(?) <pella> 'lithos' i.e. 'stone' Hes.). For (aspirated) IE *p{H}- becoming Etr. f- cf. Umbrian *Poplons > Etr. Fufluns 'Liber, Dionysus'. Possibly Latin <mare>, <lacus>, and <taxus> owe their /a/-vocalism to borrowing from this Illyrioid "Proto-Villanovan" stratum as well.

            DGK
          • Tavi
            ... people, ... Pallottino that Villanovan culture was ancestral to Etruscan civilization. This is not the same as Villanovan people ancestral to the
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 10, 2012
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              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
              >
              > > If I'm not mistaken, iron was introduced in Italy by Villanovan people,
              > > which according to most specialists are the direct ancestors of the
              > > historical Etruscans.
              >
              > Careful please. The article notes the majority agreeing with Pallottino that Villanovan culture was ancestral to Etruscan civilization. This is not the same as "Villanovan people" ancestral to the Etruscans introducing iron-working from outside of Italy.
              >
              In the view of some scholars, namely Beeks and Woudhuizen, Etruscans were one of the Sea Peoples originary of NW Anatolia, and they established themselves in Italy at the time of the Villanovan culture (900-700 BC).

              > Villanovan culture comes from Urnfield culture, so one would expect their language to be Sorothaptic (or "Illyro-Lusitanian"), and this cannot be ancestral to the non-IE Etruscan language. Probably the Proto-Villanovan incomers practiced elite dominance
              with their superior technology, but were then largely assimilated like the Normans into the English.
              >
              Surely you're referring to the late *Bronze* Proto-Villanovan culture (1100-900 BC), an offshot of the Urnfield
              immediately preceding Iron Age Villanovan. Unfortunately, archaeology can't tell us which language spoke those people.

              > The Etruscan name of Bologna is Felsina, which I believe we can understand as based on IE *pels- 'rock, cliff, crag' (German <Fels>, Macedonian <Pella>, Mac.(?) <pella> 'lithos' i.e. 'stone' Hes.). For (aspirated) IE *p{H}- becoming Etr. f- cf. Umbrian *Poplons > Etr. Fufluns 'Liber, Dionysus'. Possibly Latin <mare>, <lacus>, and <taxus> owe their /a/-vocalism to borrowing from this Illyrioid "Proto-Villanovan" stratum as well.
              >
              Your last sentence looks almost like a verbatim quote from Villar's 2005 book (coauthored with Blanca Prósper) "Vascos, celtas e indoeuropeos. Genes y lenguas." However, the distribution of the ancient Italian toponymy he considers to be Italoid is much more widespread than the extent of Proto-Villanovan and therefore suggests an older chronology for this linguistic layer.

              http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/files/Italoid%20toponymy.jpg
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