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Re: [tied] Lat. gladius and Sorothaptic

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  • Ton Sales
    Coromines puts /gladi, gladiada, gladiador, gladiatori, gladiol, gladiola, glai/ and /glaia/ in their right alphabetical place, in a single line in vol. 4,
    Message 1 of 45 , Aug 1, 2012
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      Coromines puts gladi, gladiada, gladiador, gladiatori, gladiol, gladiola, glai and glaia in their right alphabetical place, in a single line in vol. 4, page 521, where the reader is redirected to the esglaiar entry, which can be found in vol. 3 p. 583 and runs through more than three packed pages. He derives it from colloquial Classic Latin gladius, which he says is adopted from Celtic, during the Gallic invasions of Italy, meaning a weapon for slaughtering humans and also the associated mortal terror the Catalan and Occitan verb still conserves. Towards the end of the article, on p. 586, he states that, assuming a "Sorotaptic" (ie. Urnenfelder) origin, the Celtic word may directly derive from *kláuiios (first u and second i semivocalic), a near relative of OldPruss kalabian 'sword', that Uhlenbeck relates to Skr karava:lah. Then he asserts that a convincing IE etymology for the Baltic kalavìjas may be the root found in Lith. kálti 'strike' (cf. Pok. IEW 546), a root from which the following also derive: Celt. kladios 'sword', Lat. clades 'slaughter' and, with a wo enlargement, Lith. kalvis 'smith' and Lat clava.

      I hope this will help.

         Ton Sales 
    • Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
      ... ——————————————————————————————————— Thank You very much indeed! So, while OProv. glai
      Message 45 of 45 , Sep 10, 2012
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        2012/8/8, Ton Sales <ton.sales@...>:
        > I've been examining in detail what I told you Coromines had to say about
        > gladius, and I now see I was completely misled. When he says the word
        > may come directly from a Sorothaptic *klauiios he's not speaking of
        > Celtic kladios (> Lat. gladius > Cat. gladi) but of a postulated origin
        > *glavius for French glaive. This is after he notes that in Catalan
        > there's gladi/glasi and also glavi, and in Occitan there are both
        > glaziand glavi, but that in French there is only glaive. He assumes the
        > first is the Gallicism gladius (from Celtic kladios, he says) while the
        > second is --plausibly-- the (independent) Sorothaptic word that he
        > relates to the Baltic names for the sword he mentions. He sees, or
        > seeks, no other point in common for the two words. That leaves out the
        > question you're interested in: when does exactly the k- in Celtic
        > kladios becomes the g- in the Latin Celticism gladius. Coromines doesn't
        > comment about that, but then it is also clear that another k > g shift
        > demands explanation: the one in Sorothaptic *klauiios to the Latin
        > *glavius.
        > One riddle wrapped in another, as Churchill would say. Regards from
        > Barcelona.
        > Ton

        Thank You very much indeed!

        So, while OProv. glai is the regular outcome of Latin gladius and
        OProv. gladi can (!) be explained as learned form, OProv. glazi would
        continue *gladiyo-; on the other hand, Gallo-Romance types like French
        glaive (Cambr. Ps. 36,14 gladive), MFrench glage, and OProv. glaujol
        reflect *gladibo-, *glabjo- or*glawjo- respectively, in any case
        considerably different formations, surely not from gladius. For this
        reasons I assume it’s safer to operate with at least two different
        Gaulish words, *gladibo-s and *glawjo-s, maybe also *glabjo-s and
        gladiyo-s, just as we have at least four Insular Celtic lexical types,
        *kladibo-s for OIr. and maybe Welsh, *kladi:-mo-s for Breton and maybe
        Mod. Ir., *kladi:-byo-s for Breton, *kladiyo-s for MW, possibly also
        *kladimo-s for Welsh and Irish, *kladiyomo-s as well for Irish,
        *kladiyobos for OIr.:

        OIr. claideb, MIr. claidhiomh, claidium, Mod. Ir. claidheamh
        [kʰlaijə̃v] (cf. also the phrase claidheamh mór ‘great sword’ > Engl.
        MW cledyf, cleddeu, cledd, plural cledyfeu (clefydeu), cleddyddeu,
        cleddyddav, Mod. Welsh cleddyf, cleddau, pl. cleddyfau, older
        Corn. cledhe, clethe, pl. clethythyow, clythythow
        MBret. clezef(f), clezeu, clezeuf, Mod. Br. kleze, klezeñv, Vannes
        kleañ, pl. kleañnier

        Mod. Ir., Mod. Br. klezeñv and Vannetais show nasalization, therefore
        *kladimo-s or *kladiyomo-s are the best reconstruction, while
        *kladibos or *kladiyobos is better for OIr.
        MW pl. cleddyddeu and cleddyddav are the best piece of evidence for
        *kladiyo-s; cleddyf clearly continues *kladibo-s or *kladimo-s.
        Bret. /e/ < */a/ wouldn’t have taken place before resisting short /i/,
        therefore the palatal vowel in the middle of the word must procede
        from long */i:/, therefore *kladi:-byo-s (cf. *-byo- in Gallo-Latin
        uidubium = MIr. fidbha ‘bill-hook’) and *kladi:-mo-s for klezeñv,
        Vannes kleañ.
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