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Re: [tied] Cremona (was: Ligurian Barga and */p/; was: Ligurian)

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  • dgkilday57
    ... Great, now Willie Nelson s Whiskey River is stuck in my head. ... Ingenious. These folks are certainly earning their salaries. But why call a town a
    Message 1 of 17 , May 31, 2012
      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
      >
      > 2012/5/25, patrick cuadrado <dicoceltique@...>:
      > > Cremona < *Kremo-ponah2;
      > > what means ? please
      > >
      > > Patrick
      > > mon blog/mes oeuvres ici
      > > Arthur Unbeau
      > > http://www.pikeo.com/ArthurUnbeau
      > >
      > > [HTML and excess quoting deleted. -BMS]
      > >
      > Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
      >
      > *KremH-o-pon-ah2 'Garlic-river'; for the first member cf. 'The Onions'
      > town', de Bernardo Stempel 2000: 86. 93 (OIr. crem, crim)
      > otherwise *Krem-o-pon-ah2 'Stone river', cf. Marcato et al. 1990: 238

      Great, now Willie Nelson's "Whiskey River" is stuck in my head.

      > Carla Marcato, Giuliano Gasca Queirazza S.J., Giovan Battista
      > Pellegrini, Giulia Petracco Sicardi, Alda Rossebastiano (con il
      > contributo di Elena Papa) Dizionario di toponomastica. Storia e
      > significato dei nomi geografici italiani, Torino, Unione
      > Tipografico-Editrice Torinese [Realizzazione editoriale: Anna Ferrari
      > e Carlo Enrico Pietra (redazione), Silvana Lagable (revisione e
      > segreteria). Fotocomposizione e stampa: Tipografia Sociale Torinese -
      > S.p.A., Grugliasco (To[rino])], 1990 [XXVIII, 720 p.], ISBN
      > 88-02-04384-1.
      >
      > Patrizia de Bernardo Stempel, «Ptolemy's Celtic Italy and Ireland: a
      > Linguistic Analysis», in Ptolemy. Towards a linguistic atlas of the
      > earliest Celtic place-names of Europe. Papers from a workshop,
      > sponsored by the British Academy, in the Department of Welsh,
      > University of Wales, Aberystwyth, 11-12 April 1999 edited by David N.
      > PARSONS & Patrick SIMS-WILLIAMS (CMCS Publications · Department of
      > Welsh, University of Wales, Aberystwyth · Old College, King Street,
      > Aberystwyth, Ceredigion SY23 2AX), Aberystwyth, © CMCS [Typeset by
      > David N. Parsons & Printed in Wales], 2000 [x, 188 p.], pp. 83-112.

      Ingenious. These folks are certainly earning their salaries. But why call a town a river when the river is called something else? And if this is how *-o:na is explained as Celtic, what is Sulmo:na doing on the Sulmo:? Did they first name the town *Sulm-o-pon-ah2 'Overflow River' vel sim., then forget what it meant, and extract the river-name from the town, like Cam from Cambridge?

      DGK
    • patrick cuadrado
      I prefer Krim-/Krem- =  strong personal name Kremius = strongly Brittonic : Middle Breton Creff/Creffder → Breton Kreñv/Kreñvder (Plentiful/Violent).
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 1, 2012
        I prefer Krim-/Krem- =  strong
        personal name Kremius = strongly

        Brittonic : Middle Breton Creff/Creffder Breton Kreñv/Kreñvder (Plentiful/Violent). Cornic Crêf/Crefter (Robust/Vigourous). Welsh Cryf/Cryfder (Powerful)

         

        Cremona = fortress


        Kram- = garlic in celtic not Krem-

        Brittonic : Old Breton Cram → Breton Krav. Welsh Craf.

        compare to old english Hramsa

         


        --- En date de : Ven 1.6.12, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> a écrit :

        De: Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...>
        Objet: Re: [tied] Cremona (was: Ligurian Barga and */p/; was: Ligurian)
        À: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Vendredi 1 juin 2012, 1h08

        2012/5/25, patrick cuadrado <dicoceltique@...>:
        > Cremona < *Kremo-ponah2;
        > what means ? please
        >> [HTML and excess quoting deleted. -BMS]
        >
        Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:


        *KremH-o-pon-ah2 'Garlic-river'; for the first member cf. 'The Onions'
        town', de Bernardo Stempel 2000: 86. 93 (OIr. crem, crim)
        otherwise *Krem-o-pon-ah2 'Stone river', cf. Marcato et al. 1990: 238

        Carla Marcato, Giuliano Gasca Queirazza S.J., Giovan Battista
        Pellegrini, Giulia Petracco Sicardi, Alda Rossebastiano (con il
        contributo di Elena Papa) Dizionario di toponomastica. Storia e
        significato dei nomi geografici italiani, Torino, Unione
        Tipografico-Editrice Torinese [Realizzazione editoriale: Anna Ferrari
        e Carlo Enrico Pietra (redazione), Silvana Lagable (revisione e
        segreteria). Fotocomposizione e stampa: Tipografia Sociale Torinese -
        S.p.A., Grugliasco (To[rino])], 1990 [XXVIII, 720 p.], ISBN
        88-02-04384-1.


        Patrizia de Bernardo Stempel, «Ptolemy’s Celtic Italy and Ireland: a
        Linguistic Analysis», in Ptolemy. Towards a linguistic atlas of the
        earliest Celtic place-names of Europe. Papers from a workshop,
        sponsored by the British Academy, in the Department of Welsh,
        University of Wales, Aberystwyth, 11-12 April 1999 edited by David N.
        PARSONS & Patrick SIMS-WILLIAMS (CMCS Publications · Department of
        Welsh, University of Wales, Aberystwyth · Old College, King Street,
        Aberystwyth, Ceredigion SY23 2AX), Aberystwyth, © CMCS [Typeset by
        David N. Parsons & Printed in Wales], 2000 [x, 188 p.], pp. 83-112.


      • dgkilday57
        ... Oops, I was sorely mistaken. There was no ancient Sulmo:na on the Sulmo: , and I should have checked references before posting. There were two ancient
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 1, 2012
          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
          > >
          > > 2012/5/25, patrick cuadrado <dicoceltique@>:
          > > > Cremona < *Kremo-ponah2;
          > > > what means ? please
          > > >
          > > > Patrick
          > > > mon blog/mes oeuvres ici
          > > > Arthur Unbeau
          > > > http://www.pikeo.com/ArthurUnbeau
          > > >
          > > > [HTML and excess quoting deleted. -BMS]
          > > >
          > > Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
          > >
          > > *KremH-o-pon-ah2 'Garlic-river'; for the first member cf. 'The Onions'
          > > town', de Bernardo Stempel 2000: 86. 93 (OIr. crem, crim)
          > > otherwise *Krem-o-pon-ah2 'Stone river', cf. Marcato et al. 1990: 238
          >
          > Great, now Willie Nelson's "Whiskey River" is stuck in my head.
          >
          > > Carla Marcato, Giuliano Gasca Queirazza S.J., Giovan Battista
          > > Pellegrini, Giulia Petracco Sicardi, Alda Rossebastiano (con il
          > > contributo di Elena Papa) Dizionario di toponomastica. Storia e
          > > significato dei nomi geografici italiani, Torino, Unione
          > > Tipografico-Editrice Torinese [Realizzazione editoriale: Anna Ferrari
          > > e Carlo Enrico Pietra (redazione), Silvana Lagable (revisione e
          > > segreteria). Fotocomposizione e stampa: Tipografia Sociale Torinese -
          > > S.p.A., Grugliasco (To[rino])], 1990 [XXVIII, 720 p.], ISBN
          > > 88-02-04384-1.
          > >
          > > Patrizia de Bernardo Stempel, «Ptolemy's Celtic Italy and Ireland: a
          > > Linguistic Analysis», in Ptolemy. Towards a linguistic atlas of the
          > > earliest Celtic place-names of Europe. Papers from a workshop,
          > > sponsored by the British Academy, in the Department of Welsh,
          > > University of Wales, Aberystwyth, 11-12 April 1999 edited by David N.
          > > PARSONS & Patrick SIMS-WILLIAMS (CMCS Publications · Department of
          > > Welsh, University of Wales, Aberystwyth · Old College, King Street,
          > > Aberystwyth, Ceredigion SY23 2AX), Aberystwyth, © CMCS [Typeset by
          > > David N. Parsons & Printed in Wales], 2000 [x, 188 p.], pp. 83-112.
          >
          > Ingenious. These folks are certainly earning their salaries. But why call a town a river when the river is called something else? And if this is how *-o:na is explained as Celtic, what is Sulmo:na doing on the Sulmo:? Did they first name the town *Sulm-o-pon-ah2 'Overflow River' vel sim., then forget what it meant, and extract the river-name from the town, like Cam from Cambridge?

          Oops, I was sorely mistaken. There was no ancient "Sulmo:na on the Sulmo:", and I should have checked references before posting. There were two ancient towns called Sulmo:, of which one became Sulmone or Sulmona in modern dialects, a trivial development having nothing to do with the matter at hand, namely ancient towns in -o:na.

          What does involve the etymology of Cremo:na is that 'wild garlic' is reconstructed as an /u/-stem *kremh{x}u-, that there is a town Crema about halfway between Cremona and Milan (medieval Crema, I do not have an ancient reference), and that the ancient Cremo:nis Jugum 'Yoke of Cremo' referred to the Graian Alps. I think we are dealing with pre-Celtic nouns corradical with Greek <krema'nnu:mi> 'I hang up, allow to hang down, etc.'. Glaciated montane areas contain "hanging valleys" through which tributary glaciers moved.

          Instead of forcing fanciful Celtic etymologies on Derto:na, Cremo:na, Vero:na, and the like, I would simply recognize that the pre-Gaulish IE languages of Cisalpine Gaul, namely Ligurian, Rhaetic, and Venetic, retained inherited */o:/ rather than shifting it to */a:/.

          DGK
        • Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
          ... Bhrihskwobhloukstroy: So what s /-o:na/ with long /o:/? ... Bhrihskwobhloukstroy: Brittonic cram
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 1, 2012
            2012/6/1, patrick cuadrado <dicoceltique@...>:
            > I prefer Krim-/Krem- = strong
            > personal name Kremius = strongly
            >
            > Brittonic : Middle Breton Creff/Creffder → Breton Kreñv/Kreñvder
            > (Plentiful/Violent). Cornic Crêf/Crefter (Robust/Vigourous). Welsh
            > Cryf/Cryfder (Powerful)
            >
            > Cremona = fortress

            Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:

            So what's /-o:na/ with long /o:/?


            > PC:
            > Kram- = garlic in celtic not Krem-
            >
            > Brittonic : Old Breton Cram → Breton Krav. Welsh Craf.
            > compare to old english Hramsa
            >

            Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
            Brittonic cram < *kramo < PIE *krmH-o-
            Irish crem < *kremo- < PIE *kremH-o-
            Both mean 'garlic' etc. It's ablaut

            >
            >
            > --- En date de : Ven 1.6.12, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
            > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> a écrit :
            >
            >
            > De: Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...>
            > Objet: Re: [tied] Cremona (was: Ligurian Barga and */p/; was: Ligurian)
            > À: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Vendredi 1 juin 2012, 1h08
            >
            >
            > 2012/5/25, patrick cuadrado <dicoceltique@...>:
            >> Cremona < *Kremo-ponah2;
            >> what means ? please
            >>> [HTML and excess quoting deleted. -BMS]
            >>
            > Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
            >
            >
            > *KremH-o-pon-ah2 'Garlic-river'; for the first member cf. 'The Onions'
            > town', de Bernardo Stempel 2000: 86. 93 (OIr. crem, crim)
            > otherwise *Krem-o-pon-ah2 'Stone river', cf. Marcato et al. 1990: 238
            >
            > Carla Marcato, Giuliano Gasca Queirazza S.J., Giovan Battista
            > Pellegrini, Giulia Petracco Sicardi, Alda Rossebastiano (con il
            > contributo di Elena Papa) Dizionario di toponomastica. Storia e
            > significato dei nomi geografici italiani, Torino, Unione
            > Tipografico-Editrice Torinese [Realizzazione editoriale: Anna Ferrari
            > e Carlo Enrico Pietra (redazione), Silvana Lagable (revisione e
            > segreteria). Fotocomposizione e stampa: Tipografia Sociale Torinese -
            > S.p.A., Grugliasco (To[rino])], 1990 [XXVIII, 720 p.], ISBN
            > 88-02-04384-1.
            >
            >
            > Patrizia de Bernardo Stempel, «Ptolemy’s Celtic Italy and Ireland: a
            > Linguistic Analysis», in Ptolemy. Towards a linguistic atlas of the
            > earliest Celtic place-names of Europe. Papers from a workshop,
            > sponsored by the British Academy, in the Department of Welsh,
            > University of Wales, Aberystwyth, 11-12 April 1999 edited by David N.
            > PARSONS & Patrick SIMS-WILLIAMS (CMCS Publications · Department of
            > Welsh, University of Wales, Aberystwyth · Old College, King Street,
            > Aberystwyth, Ceredigion SY23 2AX), Aberystwyth, © CMCS [Typeset by
            > David N. Parsons & Printed in Wales], 2000 [x, 188 p.], pp. 83-112.
            >
            >
            >
          • Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
            ... Bhrihskwobhloukstroy: It s self-evident that both Celtic *krem- (ablauting with kram-) garlic, onion etc. (only crim is properly -u-stem) and *krem-
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 1, 2012
              2012/6/1, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:
              >
              >
              > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
              >> <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
              >> >
              >> > 2012/5/25, patrick cuadrado <dicoceltique@>:
              >> > > Cremona < *Kremo-ponah2;
              >> > > what means ? please
              >> > >
              >> > > Patrick
              >> > > mon blog/mes oeuvres ici
              >> > > Arthur Unbeau
              >> > > http://www.pikeo.com/ArthurUnbeau
              >> > >
              >> > > [HTML and excess quoting deleted. -BMS]
              >> > >
              >> > Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
              >> >
              >> > *KremH-o-pon-ah2 'Garlic-river'; for the first member cf. 'The Onions'
              >> > town', de Bernardo Stempel 2000: 86. 93 (OIr. crem, crim)
              >> > otherwise *Krem-o-pon-ah2 'Stone river', cf. Marcato et al. 1990: 238
              >>
              >> > Carla Marcato, Giuliano Gasca Queirazza S.J., Giovan Battista
              >> > Pellegrini, Giulia Petracco Sicardi, Alda Rossebastiano (con il
              >> > contributo di Elena Papa) Dizionario di toponomastica. Storia e
              >> > significato dei nomi geografici italiani, Torino, Unione
              >> > Tipografico-Editrice Torinese [Realizzazione editoriale: Anna Ferrari
              >> > e Carlo Enrico Pietra (redazione), Silvana Lagable (revisione e
              >> > segreteria). Fotocomposizione e stampa: Tipografia Sociale Torinese -
              >> > S.p.A., Grugliasco (To[rino])], 1990 [XXVIII, 720 p.], ISBN
              >> > 88-02-04384-1.
              >> >
              >> > Patrizia de Bernardo Stempel, «Ptolemy's Celtic Italy and Ireland: a
              >> > Linguistic Analysis», in Ptolemy. Towards a linguistic atlas of the
              >> > earliest Celtic place-names of Europe. Papers from a workshop,
              >> > sponsored by the British Academy, in the Department of Welsh,
              >> > University of Wales, Aberystwyth, 11-12 April 1999 edited by David N.
              >> > PARSONS & Patrick SIMS-WILLIAMS (CMCS Publications · Department of
              >> > Welsh, University of Wales, Aberystwyth · Old College, King Street,
              >> > Aberystwyth, Ceredigion SY23 2AX), Aberystwyth, © CMCS [Typeset by
              >> > David N. Parsons & Printed in Wales], 2000 [x, 188 p.], pp. 83-112.

              >> DGK:
              >> Ingenious. These folks are certainly earning their salaries. But why
              >> call a town a river when the river is called something else? And if this
              >> is how *-o:na is explained as Celtic, what is Sulmo:na doing on the
              >> Sulmo:? Did they first name the town *Sulm-o-pon-ah2 'Overflow River' vel
              >> sim., then forget what it meant, and extract the river-name from the town,
              >> like Cam from Cambridge?
              >
              > Oops, I was sorely mistaken. There was no ancient "Sulmo:na on the Sulmo:",
              > and I should have checked references before posting. There were two ancient
              > towns called Sulmo:, of which one became Sulmone or Sulmona in modern
              > dialects, a trivial development having nothing to do with the matter at
              > hand, namely ancient towns in -o:na.
              >
              > What does involve the etymology of Cremo:na is that 'wild garlic' is
              > reconstructed as an /u/-stem *kremh{x}u-, that there is a town Crema about
              > halfway between Cremona and Milan (medieval Crema, I do not have an ancient
              > reference), and that the ancient Cremo:nis Jugum 'Yoke of Cremo' referred to
              > the Graian Alps. I think we are dealing with pre-Celtic nouns corradical
              > with Greek <krema'nnu:mi> 'I hang up, allow to hang down, etc.'. Glaciated
              > montane areas contain "hanging valleys" through which tributary glaciers
              > moved.
              >
              > Instead of forcing fanciful Celtic etymologies on Derto:na, Cremo:na,
              > Vero:na, and the like, I would simply recognize that the pre-Gaulish IE
              > languages of Cisalpine Gaul, namely Ligurian, Rhaetic, and Venetic, retained
              > inherited */o:/ rather than shifting it to */a:/.
              >
              > DGK
              >
              >
              >
              Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
              It's self-evident that both Celtic *krem- (ablauting with kram-)
              'garlic, onion etc.' (only crim is properly -u-stem) and *krem-
              'strong' (whence maybe 'rock') are always competing etymologies. Other
              PIE roots, like kremannymi's *k'remh2- or cremo's *k(')remH- can of
              course be taken into consideration as well. All in all, I still find
              no difficulty in identifying Cremona with garlic or onions because
              this would fit its territory.
              As for Derto:na, my own etymology *Dher-to-pon-ah2 'slowly river'
              would refer to the moor of the Scrivia river in the plain between
              Arquata and Tortona.
              Vero:na < *Wei-ro-pon-ah2 'curved river' lies exactly on the great
              curve of the Adige.

              Inherited *-o:na: did shift to *-a:na: in non-praedial
              -ana-place-names (e.g. Brutana)
            • dgkilday57
              ... I can accept garlic or onion as the base of Crema and Cremo:na, but I find the river part of the forced Celtic etymology implausible. In what sense
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 4, 2012
                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
                >
                > 2012/6/1, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:
                > >
                > > [...]
                > >
                > > What does involve the etymology of Cremo:na is that 'wild garlic' is
                > > reconstructed as an /u/-stem *kremh{x}u-, that there is a town Crema about
                > > halfway between Cremona and Milan (medieval Crema, I do not have an ancient
                > > reference), and that the ancient Cremo:nis Jugum 'Yoke of Cremo' referred to
                > > the Graian Alps. I think we are dealing with pre-Celtic nouns corradical
                > > with Greek <krema'nnu:mi> 'I hang up, allow to hang down, etc.'. Glaciated
                > > montane areas contain "hanging valleys" through which tributary glaciers
                > > moved.
                > >
                > > Instead of forcing fanciful Celtic etymologies on Derto:na, Cremo:na,
                > > Vero:na, and the like, I would simply recognize that the pre-Gaulish IE
                > > languages of Cisalpine Gaul, namely Ligurian, Rhaetic, and Venetic, retained
                > > inherited */o:/ rather than shifting it to */a:/.
                > >
                > >
                > Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                > It's self-evident that both Celtic *krem- (ablauting with kram-)
                > 'garlic, onion etc.' (only crim is properly -u-stem) and *krem-
                > 'strong' (whence maybe 'rock') are always competing etymologies. Other
                > PIE roots, like kremannymi's *k'remh2- or cremo's *k(')remH- can of
                > course be taken into consideration as well. All in all, I still find
                > no difficulty in identifying Cremona with garlic or onions because
                > this would fit its territory.

                I can accept 'garlic' or 'onion' as the base of Crema and Cremo:na, but I find the 'river' part of the forced Celtic etymology implausible. In what sense was the Po the 'Garlic River', and why would such a name only be found applied to a town?

                And I see no connection with the Graian Alps, where 'Yoke of the Hanger' (a mythical mountain-raiser?) makes more sense.

                > As for Derto:na, my own etymology *Dher-to-pon-ah2 'slowly river'
                > would refer to the moor of the Scrivia river in the plain between
                > Arquata and Tortona.

                So why was the RIVER not called that?

                > Vero:na < *Wei-ro-pon-ah2 'curved river' lies exactly on the great
                > curve of the Adige.

                So why was the RIVER not called that?

                > Inherited *-o:na: did shift to *-a:na: in non-praedial
                > -ana-place-names (e.g. Brutana)

                Good. Since we know there was an inherited *-o:na: (becoming Gaulish *-a:na:), there is no problem assigning o:na:-names to the pre-Gaulish IE languages.

                DGK
              • Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
                ... Bhrihskwobhloukstroy: Cremona s river was probably not the Po but a branch of the Adda in ancient times, but this is irrelevant to our question. What
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 8, 2012
                  2012/6/5, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
                  > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> 2012/6/1, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:
                  >> >
                  >> > [...]
                  >> >
                  >> > What does involve the etymology of Cremo:na is that 'wild garlic' is
                  >> > reconstructed as an /u/-stem *kremh{x}u-, that there is a town Crema
                  >> > about
                  >> > halfway between Cremona and Milan (medieval Crema, I do not have an
                  >> > ancient
                  >> > reference), and that the ancient Cremo:nis Jugum 'Yoke of Cremo'
                  >> > referred to
                  >> > the Graian Alps. I think we are dealing with pre-Celtic nouns
                  >> > corradical
                  >> > with Greek <krema'nnu:mi> 'I hang up, allow to hang down, etc.'.
                  >> > Glaciated
                  >> > montane areas contain "hanging valleys" through which tributary
                  >> > glaciers
                  >> > moved.
                  >> >
                  >> > Instead of forcing fanciful Celtic etymologies on Derto:na, Cremo:na,
                  >> > Vero:na, and the like, I would simply recognize that the pre-Gaulish IE
                  >> > languages of Cisalpine Gaul, namely Ligurian, Rhaetic, and Venetic,
                  >> > retained
                  >> > inherited */o:/ rather than shifting it to */a:/.
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                  >> It's self-evident that both Celtic *krem- (ablauting with kram-)
                  >> 'garlic, onion etc.' (only crim is properly -u-stem) and *krem-
                  >> 'strong' (whence maybe 'rock') are always competing etymologies. Other
                  >> PIE roots, like kremannymi's *k'remh2- or cremo's *k(')remH- can of
                  >> course be taken into consideration as well. All in all, I still find
                  >> no difficulty in identifying Cremona with garlic or onions because
                  >> this would fit its territory.

                  > DGK:
                  > I can accept 'garlic' or 'onion' as the base of Crema and Cremo:na, but I
                  > find the 'river' part of the forced Celtic etymology implausible. In what
                  > sense was the Po the 'Garlic River', and why would such a name only be found
                  > applied to a town?

                  Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                  Cremona's river was probably not the Po but a branch of the Adda
                  in ancient times, but this is irrelevant to our question. What matters
                  is that both the Po (as everybody knows: Bodincus, Padus, Eridanus)
                  and the Adda (Lexua) did have more than one name (still in the Middle
                  Age) and accordingly a different name for every stretch from an
                  important confluence to another one, not to speak of the names of
                  different branches.
                  Anyway, I recall the point of departure of our discussion: If You
                  dislike the garlic-etymology You can choose the rock one or anything
                  Pre-Latin You prefer, the point is anyway on the origin of -o:na.


                  > DGK:
                  > And I see no connection with the Graian Alps, where 'Yoke of the Hanger' (a
                  > mythical mountain-raiser?) makes more sense.

                  Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:

                  You see no connection and there's no need to see such a
                  connection. Even Cremella (Lecco) and Cremia (Como) have *krem- in
                  other meanings than 'garlic' or 'onion'. I had initially written no
                  etymology for *krem- in Cremo:na because it wasn't relevant (apart
                  from its Pre-Latin affiliation); Patrick Cuadrado asked for it and I
                  reported Patrizia de Bernardo's proposal (just for Cremona, not for
                  Cremo or other places!).
                  We can amusingly further discuss whether all occurrences of
                  /krem-/ can be assigned to the same etymon or to different homophones,
                  but it's pointless to our present purpose.

                  >
                  >> As for Derto:na, my own etymology *Dher-to-pon-ah2 'slowly river'
                  >> would refer to the moor of the Scrivia river in the plain between
                  >> Arquata and Tortona.

                  > DGK:
                  > So why was the RIVER not called that?

                  Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:

                  I've never stated that the river wasn't called that. Nobody can
                  assert that it wasn't called that. My hypothesis implies that it was
                  indeed so named.
                  Facts are that Derto:na is the name of the town's territory (not
                  simply of the town) and that this territory was a big marsh formed the
                  Scrivia river.
                  If Scrivia is from *skrei- 'curve', such an etymology applies very
                  aptly to its upper course, much less to the plain North of Arquata.
                  So, why not a different name for this section of the river?

                  >
                  >> Vero:na < *Wei-ro-pon-ah2 'curved river' lies exactly on the great
                  >> curve of the Adige.

                  > DGK:
                  > So why was the RIVER not called that?

                  Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:

                  If You repeat the question, it becomes a more general question. Do
                  You admit that rivers can have had more names than today (I think You
                  do), therefore that these names can refer to different sections of the
                  river - corresponding to territorial units - and survive as
                  territorial names when one river-name wins over the other ones for the
                  same river?

                  >
                  >> Inherited *-o:na: did shift to *-a:na: in non-praedial
                  >> -ana-place-names (e.g. Brutana)

                  > DGK:
                  > Good. Since we know there was an inherited *-o:na: (becoming Gaulish
                  > *-a:na:), there is no problem assigning o:na:-names to the pre-Gaulish IE
                  > languages.

                  Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:

                  There's never any problem in assigning regular outputs to their
                  possible linguistic affiliations. Problems raise after that. First of
                  all, competing assignments cause the debate to remain unsolved.
                  Secondly, co-occurrence of different strata in one and the same
                  territory implies the question of a possible chronological sequence.
                  Let's start with the second problem. You like stratifications. In
                  order to prove a stratification, You have to solve the first problem
                  in favour of the co-occurrence solution. The it comes to chronological
                  priority. I think You assume Ligurian precedes Celtic, maybe because
                  You assign everything Celtic to the Gaulish immigrations about the
                  middle of the I. millennium BCE and maybe also because You infer that,
                  since Ligurian appear to have disappeared all over Europe before than
                  Continental Celtic in turn disappeared, it must have also preceded as
                  to its starting point (just as if strata were persons of different
                  generations), but since You usually recognize Ligurian names by their
                  absence of Celtic features (sometimes You postulate Gaulish remaking
                  of Ligurian names, but all instances can be reversed as to
                  chronological succession) You have to give a better proof of the
                  chronological priority of the allegedly non-Celtic Ligurian stratum.
                  (As for me, I've tried to argue in favour of direct lineage from PIE
                  to Gaulish in situ and this would at least exclude chronological
                  seriority of Celtic).
                  The first problem cannot be solved because Your theory isn't
                  falsifiable. Since You are free to assign to Celtic everything that
                  anywhere doesn't fit in Your (and Kretschmer's and d'Arbois' and so
                  on) Ligurian, please tell me what on Earth could even theoretically
                  convince You that You may be wrong.
                • dgkilday57
                  ... First, regarding the Po, I know of no evidence that natives ever called it Eridanus. That was the poetic name of a mythical river. What we do know is
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 19, 2012
                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > 2012/6/5, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:
                    > >
                    > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
                    > > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >> 2012/6/1, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@>:
                    > >> >
                    > >> > [...]
                    > >> >
                    > >> > What does involve the etymology of Cremo:na is that 'wild garlic' is
                    > >> > reconstructed as an /u/-stem *kremh{x}u-, that there is a town Crema
                    > >> > about
                    > >> > halfway between Cremona and Milan (medieval Crema, I do not have an
                    > >> > ancient
                    > >> > reference), and that the ancient Cremo:nis Jugum 'Yoke of Cremo'
                    > >> > referred to
                    > >> > the Graian Alps. I think we are dealing with pre-Celtic nouns
                    > >> > corradical
                    > >> > with Greek <krema'nnu:mi> 'I hang up, allow to hang down, etc.'.
                    > >> > Glaciated
                    > >> > montane areas contain "hanging valleys" through which tributary
                    > >> > glaciers
                    > >> > moved.
                    > >> >
                    > >> > Instead of forcing fanciful Celtic etymologies on Derto:na, Cremo:na,
                    > >> > Vero:na, and the like, I would simply recognize that the pre-Gaulish IE
                    > >> > languages of Cisalpine Gaul, namely Ligurian, Rhaetic, and Venetic,
                    > >> > retained
                    > >> > inherited */o:/ rather than shifting it to */a:/.
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                    > >> It's self-evident that both Celtic *krem- (ablauting with kram-)
                    > >> 'garlic, onion etc.' (only crim is properly -u-stem) and *krem-
                    > >> 'strong' (whence maybe 'rock') are always competing etymologies. Other
                    > >> PIE roots, like kremannymi's *k'remh2- or cremo's *k(')remH- can of
                    > >> course be taken into consideration as well. All in all, I still find
                    > >> no difficulty in identifying Cremona with garlic or onions because
                    > >> this would fit its territory.
                    >
                    > > DGK:
                    > > I can accept 'garlic' or 'onion' as the base of Crema and Cremo:na, but I
                    > > find the 'river' part of the forced Celtic etymology implausible. In what
                    > > sense was the Po the 'Garlic River', and why would such a name only be found
                    > > applied to a town?
                    >
                    > Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                    > Cremona's river was probably not the Po but a branch of the Adda
                    > in ancient times, but this is irrelevant to our question. What matters
                    > is that both the Po (as everybody knows: Bodincus, Padus, Eridanus)
                    > and the Adda (Lexua) did have more than one name (still in the Middle
                    > Age) and accordingly a different name for every stretch from an
                    > important confluence to another one, not to speak of the names of
                    > different branches.
                    > Anyway, I recall the point of departure of our discussion: If You
                    > dislike the garlic-etymology You can choose the rock one or anything
                    > Pre-Latin You prefer, the point is anyway on the origin of -o:na.

                    First, regarding the Po, I know of no evidence that natives ever called it Eridanus. That was the poetic name of a mythical river. What we do know is that Ligurians called the upper part of it Bodegkos/Bodincus, and the lower part was called Padus. What this means is that Ligurians reached the river from the west and named it, and some non-Ligurian group reached the river from the east and named it something else, and subsequent groups used the existing non-Ligurian name.

                    There is ABSOLUTELY NO GROUND for asserting that every stretch of a river had a different name. In fact, such an assumption flies in the face of your homogenist model. You envision uniform PIE-speakers settling (or being divinely created) over a very large area, and since rivers serve as routes for travel, there is no basis whatever for a uniform stratum of speakers to assign multiple names. The only reason for multiple naming is ethnolinguistic heterogeneity, which your model denies for pre-Roman times, although you are willing to admit enclaves of conservatism to explain Porcobera and the Plinii. Thus your model should yield only such variants as the Duero/Douro. It cannot account for Bodincus/Padus and the like.

                    > > DGK:
                    > > And I see no connection with the Graian Alps, where 'Yoke of the Hanger' (a
                    > > mythical mountain-raiser?) makes more sense.
                    >
                    > Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                    >
                    > You see no connection and there's no need to see such a
                    > connection. Even Cremella (Lecco) and Cremia (Como) have *krem- in
                    > other meanings than 'garlic' or 'onion'. I had initially written no
                    > etymology for *krem- in Cremo:na because it wasn't relevant (apart
                    > from its Pre-Latin affiliation); Patrick Cuadrado asked for it and I
                    > reported Patrizia de Bernardo's proposal (just for Cremona, not for
                    > Cremo or other places!).
                    > We can amusingly further discuss whether all occurrences of
                    > /krem-/ can be assigned to the same etymon or to different homophones,
                    > but it's pointless to our present purpose.

                    Agreed.

                    > >> As for Derto:na, my own etymology *Dher-to-pon-ah2 'slowly river'
                    > >> would refer to the moor of the Scrivia river in the plain between
                    > >> Arquata and Tortona.
                    >
                    > > DGK:
                    > > So why was the RIVER not called that?
                    >
                    > Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                    >
                    > I've never stated that the river wasn't called that. Nobody can
                    > assert that it wasn't called that. My hypothesis implies that it was
                    > indeed so named.
                    > Facts are that Derto:na is the name of the town's territory (not
                    > simply of the town) and that this territory was a big marsh formed the
                    > Scrivia river.
                    > If Scrivia is from *skrei- 'curve', such an etymology applies very
                    > aptly to its upper course, much less to the plain North of Arquata.
                    > So, why not a different name for this section of the river?

                    Because rivers are used for travel, and giving rivers PROPER names is (to my knowledge) a linguistic universal. Ask yourself why ANYTHING has a proper name. Instead of saying "Let's paddle up the fishy river to the shining river to the swampy river to the sandy river to the pebbly river to the birchy river to the waterfally river, then portage over to the other waterfally river and paddle down to the oaky river to the beechy river to the twisty river to the bitter river to the broad river to the sea", IE-speakers could say "Let's paddle up the Albantia to the waterfall, portage over to the Brigantia, and paddle down to the sea". Done!

                    > >> Vero:na < *Wei-ro-pon-ah2 'curved river' lies exactly on the great
                    > >> curve of the Adige.
                    >
                    > > DGK:
                    > > So why was the RIVER not called that?
                    >
                    > Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                    >
                    > If You repeat the question, it becomes a more general question. Do
                    > You admit that rivers can have had more names than today (I think You
                    > do), therefore that these names can refer to different sections of the
                    > river - corresponding to territorial units - and survive as
                    > territorial names when one river-name wins over the other ones for the
                    > same river?

                    The only reason to admit that would be to admit greater ethnolinguistic heterogeneity then than now, which again your model denies. And it is quite remarkable that 3 for 3 of your -o:na-names involve NO EVIDENCE that the rivers were EVER called that.

                    > >> Inherited *-o:na: did shift to *-a:na: in non-praedial
                    > >> -ana-place-names (e.g. Brutana)
                    >
                    > > DGK:
                    > > Good. Since we know there was an inherited *-o:na: (becoming Gaulish
                    > > *-a:na:), there is no problem assigning o:na:-names to the pre-Gaulish IE
                    > > languages.
                    >
                    > Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                    >
                    > There's never any problem in assigning regular outputs to their
                    > possible linguistic affiliations. Problems raise after that. First of
                    > all, competing assignments cause the debate to remain unsolved.
                    > Secondly, co-occurrence of different strata in one and the same
                    > territory implies the question of a possible chronological sequence.
                    > Let's start with the second problem. You like stratifications. In
                    > order to prove a stratification, You have to solve the first problem
                    > in favour of the co-occurrence solution. The it comes to chronological
                    > priority. I think You assume Ligurian precedes Celtic, maybe because
                    > You assign everything Celtic to the Gaulish immigrations about the
                    > middle of the I. millennium BCE and maybe also because You infer that,
                    > since Ligurian appear to have disappeared all over Europe before than
                    > Continental Celtic in turn disappeared, it must have also preceded as
                    > to its starting point (just as if strata were persons of different
                    > generations), but since You usually recognize Ligurian names by their
                    > absence of Celtic features (sometimes You postulate Gaulish remaking
                    > of Ligurian names, but all instances can be reversed as to
                    > chronological succession) You have to give a better proof of the
                    > chronological priority of the allegedly non-Celtic Ligurian stratum.
                    > (As for me, I've tried to argue in favour of direct lineage from PIE
                    > to Gaulish in situ and this would at least exclude chronological
                    > seriority of Celtic).
                    > The first problem cannot be solved because Your theory isn't
                    > falsifiable. Since You are free to assign to Celtic everything that
                    > anywhere doesn't fit in Your (and Kretschmer's and d'Arbois' and so
                    > on) Ligurian, please tell me what on Earth could even theoretically
                    > convince You that You may be wrong.

                    Alternative etymologies based on REAL Celtic, not your Frankensteinian construction involving body parts from other languages, in short Franken-Celtic.

                    DGK
                  • Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
                    ... Bhrihskwobhloukstroy: It was the name of river in Athens as well. You are assuming the Greeks simply gave a mythical name to the river near Adria; but they
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 20, 2012
                      2012/6/20, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:
                      >> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
                      >> > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
                      >> (...) What matters
                      >> is that both the Po (as everybody knows: Bodincus, Padus, Eridanus)
                      >> and the Adda (Lexua) did have more than one name (still in the Middle
                      >> Age) and accordingly a different name for every stretch from an
                      >> important confluence to another one, not to speak of the names of
                      >> different branches.
                      >> Anyway, I recall the point of departure of our discussion: If You
                      >> dislike the garlic-etymology You can choose the rock one or anything
                      >> Pre-Latin You prefer, the point is anyway on the origin of -o:na.

                      > DGK:
                      > First, regarding the Po, I know of no evidence that natives ever called it
                      > Eridanus. That was the poetic name of a mythical river.

                      Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:

                      It was the name of river in Athens as well. You are assuming the
                      Greeks simply gave a mythical name to the river near Adria; but they
                      ordinarily kept quite well local river-names wherever they settled,
                      or, at least, preferred transparent names (maybe direct translations,
                      maybe not), but quite rarely purely myhical names like e.g. Styx.
                      Of course, there are instances like Akh'ero:n, but these - like Styx
                      - end up as normal PIE river-names (maybe at least partially with
                      adstrate phonology, e.g. *h1g'heront-). If this were the case with
                      Adriatic Eridanos, we would come back to the same question: where did
                      it come from?
                      I, as expected, find the Celtic etymology of Eridanos
                      (*h'eperi-dh2no-s 'East River') convincing; nevertheless, as per
                      above, this is irrelevant to our question, because this latter raises
                      anyway with just two ancient local names for the Po, Bodincus and
                      Padus.

                      > DGK:
                      > What we do know is
                      > that Ligurians called the upper part of it Bodegkos/Bodincus, and the lower
                      > part was called Padus. What this means is that Ligurians reached the river
                      > from the west and named it, and some non-Ligurian group reached the river
                      > from the east and named it something else, and subsequent groups used the
                      > existing non-Ligurian name.

                      Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                      Any Ligurian etymology of Bodincus (be it from PIE *bheudh- 'bottom'
                      or *bhedh- 'dig') is indistinguishable from a Celtic one (please don't
                      reply that the first of these roots is scarcely represented in Insular
                      Celtic lexicon, because the same holds true for a great part of
                      river-names all over Celtic lands, whereas another great part of
                      river-names in the same areas does exhibit Celtic lexical material, so
                      every conclusion can be drawn: stratification of Celtic and non-Celtic
                      but also, conversely, loss of lexical items in the subsequent history
                      of Insular Celtic).
                      A good Celtic etymology for Padus is Hubschmied's one (: Old Norse
                      hvatr 'swift', Pokorny 636), in my opinion the best one among many
                      proposals that have been made. Quite surely we don't agree on any of
                      these etymologies, but this can be another thread, the point is again
                      on the very existence of more than one name for the same river.

                      > DGK:
                      > There is ABSOLUTELY NO GROUND for asserting that every stretch of a river
                      > had a different name. In fact, such an assumption flies in the face of your
                      > homogenist model. You envision uniform PIE-speakers settling (or being
                      > divinely created) over a very large area, and since rivers serve as routes
                      > for travel, there is no basis whatever for a uniform stratum of speakers to
                      > assign multiple names. The only reason for multiple naming is
                      > ethnolinguistic heterogeneity, which your model denies for pre-Roman times,
                      > although you are willing to admit enclaves of conservatism to explain
                      > Porcobera and the Plinii. Thus your model should yield only such variants
                      > as the Duero/Douro. It cannot account for Bodincus/Padus and the like.
                      >

                      Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:

                      You are mixing two arguments. If we discuss of multiple naming of
                      different stretches, a very good reason for it is the need of
                      distinguishing such stretches, just like different stretches of one
                      and the same street bear different names (even at one or two km
                      distance) according to the people who dwell or work along it or to
                      other features.
                      When You refer to ethnolinguistic heterogeneity, You are indeed
                      recalling instances like Duero/Douro (different phonological outputs
                      from the same name), although in any case inside a common genealogical
                      origin (like the Porcoberans and the Plinys on one side and the [rest
                      of] Cisalpine Celts on the other side), while - as You have written -
                      a name for the upper course and another one for the lower course of
                      the same river are exactly what is needed in order to refer, in one
                      and the same community, to such different parts.
                      Usually people colonize rivers' valleys upwards and they need a name
                      for the lower part of the valley and another one for the upper part.
                      Should You seriously argue that everything that has a hyperonymic name
                      cannot have different hyponymic names for each part of it (unless by
                      different ethnolinguistic communities), Your argument would be
                      patently absurd, since the lowest limit for naming differentiation is
                      at microscopical scale, not at a miles' size (otherwise one and the
                      same family couldn't a have a name for the first floor of its home and
                      a different one for the second floor - they should call everything
                      simply "home"). I cannot believe You really mean that, I think You are
                      joking.

                      (...)
                      >
                      >> >> As for Derto:na, my own etymology *Dher-to-pon-ah2 'slowly river'
                      >> >> would refer to the moor of the Scrivia river in the plain between
                      >> >> Arquata and Tortona.
                      >>
                      >> > DGK:
                      >> > So why was the RIVER not called that?
                      >>
                      >> Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                      >>
                      >> I've never stated that the river wasn't called that. Nobody can
                      >> assert that it wasn't called that. My hypothesis implies that it was
                      >> indeed so named.
                      >> Facts are that Derto:na is the name of the town's territory (not
                      >> simply of the town) and that this territory was a big marsh formed the
                      >> Scrivia river.
                      >> If Scrivia is from *skrei- 'curve', such an etymology applies very
                      >> aptly to its upper course, much less to the plain North of Arquata.
                      >> So, why not a different name for this section of the river?

                      > DGK:
                      > Because rivers are used for travel, and giving rivers PROPER names is (to my
                      > knowledge) a linguistic universal. Ask yourself why ANYTHING has a proper
                      > name. Instead of saying "Let's paddle up the fishy river to the shining
                      > river to the swampy river to the sandy river to the pebbly river to the
                      > birchy river to the waterfally river, then portage over to the other
                      > waterfally river and paddle down to the oaky river to the beechy river to
                      > the twisty river to the bitter river to the broad river to the sea",
                      > IE-speakers could say "Let's paddle up the Albantia to the waterfall,
                      > portage over to the Brigantia, and paddle down to the sea". Done!

                      Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:

                      The first description is much better in order to identify settlements
                      and specific points of the river course - in absence of maps and other
                      written indicators - just like civic numbers are much more precise
                      than a mere street name. Different names for rivers' stretches are
                      like more or less descriptive proper names for dwellings along one
                      road in absence of civic numbers.
                      They had no need of having only one name for an entire river course;
                      they knew that the *Skreiwiah2 'flows' into the *Derto-ponah2.
                      Moreover, a distinction between stretches is more intuitive, because
                      at a confluence of two equally big rivers it's really difficult to
                      distinguish which is the principal one, so it's much better to coin a
                      third name for their unified course (and so on recursively).

                      >
                      >> >> Vero:na < *Wei-ro-pon-ah2 'curved river' lies exactly on the great
                      >> >> curve of the Adige.
                      >>
                      >> > DGK:
                      >> > So why was the RIVER not called that?
                      >>
                      >> Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                      >>
                      >> If You repeat the question, it becomes a more general question. Do
                      >> You admit that rivers can have had more names than today (I think You
                      >> do), therefore that these names can refer to different sections of the
                      >> river - corresponding to territorial units - and survive as
                      >> territorial names when one river-name wins over the other ones for the
                      >> same river?

                      > DGK:
                      > The only reason to admit that would be to admit greater ethnolinguistic
                      > heterogeneity then than now, which again your model denies. And it is quite
                      > remarkable that 3 for 3 of your -o:na-names involve NO EVIDENCE that the
                      > rivers were EVER called that.

                      Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:

                      I've jut cited three examples for areal reasons. If You desire the
                      founding material, it's constituted by plenty of /-o:ne/-RIVER-names
                      (sometimes in correspondence with -ate-ford names on the same rivers,
                      like Vellone [Varese] < *welno-ponos 'good water' by Velate <
                      *welno-h1ah2tu-s, Caldone [Lecco] < *kah2udo-pono-s 'posterior water'
                      by Acquate < Coade < *kah2udo-h1yah2tu-s)

                      >
                      >> >> Inherited *-o:na: did shift to *-a:na: in non-praedial
                      >> >> -ana-place-names (e.g. Brutana)
                      >>
                      >> > DGK:
                      >> > Good. Since we know there was an inherited *-o:na: (becoming Gaulish
                      >> > *-a:na:), there is no problem assigning o:na:-names to the pre-Gaulish
                      >> > IE
                      >> > languages.
                      >>
                      >> Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                      >>
                      >> There's never any problem in assigning regular outputs to their
                      >> possible linguistic affiliations. Problems raise after that. First of
                      >> all, competing assignments cause the debate to remain unsolved.
                      >> Secondly, co-occurrence of different strata in one and the same
                      >> territory implies the question of a possible chronological sequence.
                      >> Let's start with the second problem. You like stratifications. In
                      >> order to prove a stratification, You have to solve the first problem
                      >> in favour of the co-occurrence solution. The it comes to chronological
                      >> priority. I think You assume Ligurian precedes Celtic, maybe because
                      >> You assign everything Celtic to the Gaulish immigrations about the
                      >> middle of the I. millennium BCE and maybe also because You infer that,
                      >> since Ligurian appear to have disappeared all over Europe before than
                      >> Continental Celtic in turn disappeared, it must have also preceded as
                      >> to its starting point (just as if strata were persons of different
                      >> generations), but since You usually recognize Ligurian names by their
                      >> absence of Celtic features (sometimes You postulate Gaulish remaking
                      >> of Ligurian names, but all instances can be reversed as to
                      >> chronological succession) You have to give a better proof of the
                      >> chronological priority of the allegedly non-Celtic Ligurian stratum.
                      >> (As for me, I've tried to argue in favour of direct lineage from PIE
                      >> to Gaulish in situ and this would at least exclude chronological
                      >> seriority of Celtic).
                      >> The first problem cannot be solved because Your theory isn't
                      >> falsifiable. Since You are free to assign to Celtic everything that
                      >> anywhere doesn't fit in Your (and Kretschmer's and d'Arbois' and so
                      >> on) Ligurian, please tell me what on Earth could even theoretically
                      >> convince You that You may be wrong.

                      > DGK:
                      > Alternative etymologies based on REAL Celtic, not your Frankensteinian
                      > construction involving body parts from other languages, in short
                      > Franken-Celtic.

                      Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:

                      Apart from Proper Liguria, which is precisely the matter of our
                      contention, I'm systematically picking my examples from regions
                      inhabited by people who spoke Celtic languages, dressed in a Celtic
                      faschion, worshipped Celtic Gods (in the sense of Gods normally
                      worshipped by Celts) and called themselves Celts. Nothing strange if
                      they had a common origin. Maybe (who knows?) in fact they didn't, but
                      nevertheless my hypothesis is the simplest possible one.
                      Rather, it's You who try to split one body into two. Maybe (who
                      knows?) You are right, but Your hypothesis is certainly more complex
                      than my (nevertheless still possible) one.
                      Anyway, even alternative etymologies based on real Celtic for Your
                      taste wouldn't convince You, because You are already persuaded that
                      Celts have lived in Celtic countries (wow), so on that matter we
                      completely agree; what we disagree on is 1) that they were there since
                      PIE times (and in this sense my question remains: suppose You were,
                      ehm, wrong, what kind of demonstration would You accept for an IE
                      continuity for Celts?) and 2) that non-Celtic Ligurian *innovations*
                      aren't compelling (and they really aren't, don't You think?)
                    • dgkilday57
                      ... It could have been formed within Greek using the prefix eri-, and meaning much-flowing (i.e. year-round) or great river , hence applied to a poorly
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 22, 2012
                        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > 2012/6/20, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:
                        > >> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
                        > >> > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
                        > >> (...) What matters
                        > >> is that both the Po (as everybody knows: Bodincus, Padus, Eridanus)
                        > >> and the Adda (Lexua) did have more than one name (still in the Middle
                        > >> Age) and accordingly a different name for every stretch from an
                        > >> important confluence to another one, not to speak of the names of
                        > >> different branches.
                        > >> Anyway, I recall the point of departure of our discussion: If You
                        > >> dislike the garlic-etymology You can choose the rock one or anything
                        > >> Pre-Latin You prefer, the point is anyway on the origin of -o:na.
                        >
                        > > DGK:
                        > > First, regarding the Po, I know of no evidence that natives ever called it
                        > > Eridanus. That was the poetic name of a mythical river.
                        >
                        > Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                        >
                        > It was the name of river in Athens as well. You are assuming the
                        > Greeks simply gave a mythical name to the river near Adria; but they
                        > ordinarily kept quite well local river-names wherever they settled,
                        > or, at least, preferred transparent names (maybe direct translations,
                        > maybe not), but quite rarely purely myhical names like e.g. Styx.
                        > Of course, there are instances like Akh'ero:n, but these - like Styx
                        > - end up as normal PIE river-names (maybe at least partially with
                        > adstrate phonology, e.g. *h1g'heront-). If this were the case with
                        > Adriatic Eridanos, we would come back to the same question: where did
                        > it come from?

                        It could have been formed within Greek using the prefix eri-, and meaning 'much-flowing' (i.e. year-round) or 'great river', hence applied to a poorly known great river of the Northwest, then applied directly when settlement occurred nearby, without bothering to consult the natives.

                        > I, as expected, find the Celtic etymology of Eridanos
                        > (*h'eperi-dh2no-s 'East River') convincing; nevertheless, as per
                        > above, this is irrelevant to our question, because this latter raises
                        > anyway with just two ancient local names for the Po, Bodincus and
                        > Padus.

                        Holy hydronyms, Batman! The East River is in Gotham City. And holy Harold, Batman! You now have a Celtic etymology for a river of Athens.

                        > > DGK:
                        > > What we do know is
                        > > that Ligurians called the upper part of it Bodegkos/Bodincus, and the lower
                        > > part was called Padus. What this means is that Ligurians reached the river
                        > > from the west and named it, and some non-Ligurian group reached the river
                        > > from the east and named it something else, and subsequent groups used the
                        > > existing non-Ligurian name.
                        >
                        > Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                        > Any Ligurian etymology of Bodincus (be it from PIE *bheudh- 'bottom'
                        > or *bhedh- 'dig') is indistinguishable from a Celtic one (please don't
                        > reply that the first of these roots is scarcely represented in Insular
                        > Celtic lexicon, because the same holds true for a great part of
                        > river-names all over Celtic lands, whereas another great part of
                        > river-names in the same areas does exhibit Celtic lexical material, so
                        > every conclusion can be drawn: stratification of Celtic and non-Celtic
                        > but also, conversely, loss of lexical items in the subsequent history
                        > of Insular Celtic).

                        I never bought into the 'fundo carens' explanation, a mere guess by the ancients, and digging is not obviously involved. I consider it more plausible that Bodincus meant 'Muddy', agreeing with "acque melmose del Po", that the same stem occurs in the Bodensee, and that Celt. *bodjo- 'yellow' originally meant 'mud-colored'; likewise Japygian or Messapic *badja- borrowed into Latin as <badius> 'chestnut-colored, bay'. Of course, if you dig mud, you could derive *bHodHo- 'something dug' from *bHedH-.

                        > A good Celtic etymology for Padus is Hubschmied's one (: Old Norse
                        > hvatr 'swift', Pokorny 636), in my opinion the best one among many
                        > proposals that have been made. Quite surely we don't agree on any of
                        > these etymologies, but this can be another thread, the point is again
                        > on the very existence of more than one name for the same river.

                        "Good"? Semantically inappropriate and anachronistic. The lower Po is broad and slow. Moreover, Lat. Patavium 'Padua' with its -t- must have come through archaic Etruscan, and the Etruscans had colonized this area BEFORE the Gauls swept through the passes and drove them out. No etymology for Padus is better than a forced one.

                        > > DGK:
                        > > There is ABSOLUTELY NO GROUND for asserting that every stretch of a river
                        > > had a different name. In fact, such an assumption flies in the face of your
                        > > homogenist model. You envision uniform PIE-speakers settling (or being
                        > > divinely created) over a very large area, and since rivers serve as routes
                        > > for travel, there is no basis whatever for a uniform stratum of speakers to
                        > > assign multiple names. The only reason for multiple naming is
                        > > ethnolinguistic heterogeneity, which your model denies for pre-Roman times,
                        > > although you are willing to admit enclaves of conservatism to explain
                        > > Porcobera and the Plinii. Thus your model should yield only such variants
                        > > as the Duero/Douro. It cannot account for Bodincus/Padus and the like.
                        > >
                        >
                        > Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                        >
                        > You are mixing two arguments. If we discuss of multiple naming of
                        > different stretches, a very good reason for it is the need of
                        > distinguishing such stretches, just like different stretches of one
                        > and the same street bear different names (even at one or two km
                        > distance) according to the people who dwell or work along it or to
                        > other features.

                        That is not how streets (or rivers) acquire multiple names.

                        > When You refer to ethnolinguistic heterogeneity, You are indeed
                        > recalling instances like Duero/Douro (different phonological outputs
                        > from the same name), although in any case inside a common genealogical
                        > origin (like the Porcoberans and the Plinys on one side and the [rest
                        > of] Cisalpine Celts on the other side), while - as You have written -
                        > a name for the upper course and another one for the lower course of
                        > the same river are exactly what is needed in order to refer, in one
                        > and the same community, to such different parts.

                        Wrong. Adjectives fulfill this need.

                        > Usually people colonize rivers' valleys upwards and they need a name
                        > for the lower part of the valley and another one for the upper part.
                        > Should You seriously argue that everything that has a hyperonymic name
                        > cannot have different hyponymic names for each part of it (unless by
                        > different ethnolinguistic communities), Your argument would be
                        > patently absurd, since the lowest limit for naming differentiation is
                        > at microscopical scale, not at a miles' size (otherwise one and the
                        > same family couldn't a have a name for the first floor of its home and
                        > a different one for the second floor - they should call everything
                        > simply "home"). I cannot believe You really mean that, I think You are
                        > joking.

                        I think you sound like Heraclitus would, if practical jokers had forced him into the cannabis tent with the Scythians. Abstruse philosophical considerations of potential naming have no relevance to actual practice. And again, adjectives (or prepositional phrases) easily satisfy the need for subdividing 'home'.

                        DGK
                      • stlatos
                        ... It probably was orig. East River , but from the Greek for early / in the morning (that is, the mythical river the sun (god) had to cross in the east for
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 22, 2012
                          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:

                          >
                          > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
                          > >


                          > > I, as expected, find the Celtic etymology of Eridanos
                          > > (*h'eperi-dh2no-s 'East River') convincing; nevertheless, as per
                          > > above, this is irrelevant to our question, because this latter raises
                          > > anyway with just two ancient local names for the Po, Bodincus and
                          > > Padus.

                          >
                          > Holy hydronyms, Batman! The East River is in Gotham City. And holy Harold, Batman! You now have a Celtic etymology for a river of Athens.
                          >


                          It probably was orig. 'East River', but from the Greek for 'early / in the morning' (that is, the mythical river the sun (god) had to cross in the east for the sun to rise, identical to Oceanus).
                        • stlatos
                          ... What possible reason is there to assume an unknown proto-form *bodjo- yellow just so yet another unattested word could in some lng. other than Celtic
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jun 22, 2012
                            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
                            >

                            > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
                            > >


                            > >
                            > > Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                            > > Any Ligurian etymology of Bodincus (be it from PIE *bheudh- 'bottom'
                            > > or *bhedh- 'dig') is indistinguishable from a Celtic one (please don't
                            > > reply that the first of these roots is scarcely represented in Insular
                            > > Celtic lexicon, because the same holds true for a great part of
                            > > river-names all over Celtic lands, whereas another great part of
                            > > river-names in the same areas does exhibit Celtic lexical material, so
                            > > every conclusion can be drawn: stratification of Celtic and non-Celtic
                            > > but also, conversely, loss of lexical items in the subsequent history
                            > > of Insular Celtic).


                            >
                            > I never bought into the 'fundo carens' explanation, a mere guess by the ancients, and digging is not obviously involved. I consider it more plausible that Bodincus meant 'Muddy', agreeing with "acque melmose del Po", that the same stem occurs in the Bodensee, and that Celt. *bodjo- 'yellow' originally meant 'mud-colored'; likewise Japygian or Messapic *badja- borrowed into Latin as <badius> 'chestnut-colored, bay'.
                            >


                            What possible reason is there to assume an unknown proto-form *bodjo- 'yellow' just so yet another unattested word could in some lng. other than Celtic give *badja- >> L? It looks like, again, you're trying to twist everything to "prove" that a word isn't Celtic, and instead of brw Celtic >> L it's Japygian/Messapic >> L. What possible theory are you trying to prove? What's the point? Do you know that *badyos > buide = yellow OI; is just as possible as *bodyos > buide = yellow OI; ?
                          • patrick cuadrado
                            Eri-danos = east river in Celtic ? But Eri- is West Irish Iarthar. Manx Eear Patrick mon blog/mes oeuvres ici Arthur Unbeau http://www.pikeo.com/ArthurUnbeau
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jun 23, 2012
                              Eri-danos = east river in Celtic ?
                              But Eri- is West
                              Irish Iarthar. Manx Eear


                              Patrick
                              mon blog/mes oeuvres ici
                              Arthur Unbeau
                              http://www.pikeo.com/ArthurUnbeau

                              --- En date de : Sam 23.6.12, stlatos <sean@...> a écrit :

                              De: stlatos <sean@...>
                              Objet: Re: [tied] Cremona (was: Ligurian Barga and */p/; was: Ligurian)
                              À: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Samedi 23 juin 2012, 1h21

                               


                              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:

                              >
                              > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
                              > >

                              > > I, as expected, find the Celtic etymology of Eridanos
                              > > (*h'eperi-dh2no-s 'East River') convincing; nevertheless, as per
                              > > above, this is irrelevant to our question, because this latter raises
                              > > anyway with just two ancient local names for the Po, Bodincus and
                              > > Padus.

                              >
                              > Holy hydronyms, Batman! The East River is in Gotham City. And holy Harold, Batman! You now have a Celtic etymology for a river of Athens.
                              >

                              It probably was orig. 'East River', but from the Greek for 'early / in the morning' (that is, the mythical river the sun (god) had to cross in the east for the sun to rise, identical to Oceanus).

                            • dgkilday57
                              ... Gaul. Bodiocasses Yellow-Tressed Ones vel sim. demands Celt. *bodjo-, not *badjo-. Of course, you can always introduce opt. *o a. DGK
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jun 25, 2012
                                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <sean@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                                > > > Any Ligurian etymology of Bodincus (be it from PIE *bheudh- 'bottom'
                                > > > or *bhedh- 'dig') is indistinguishable from a Celtic one (please don't
                                > > > reply that the first of these roots is scarcely represented in Insular
                                > > > Celtic lexicon, because the same holds true for a great part of
                                > > > river-names all over Celtic lands, whereas another great part of
                                > > > river-names in the same areas does exhibit Celtic lexical material, so
                                > > > every conclusion can be drawn: stratification of Celtic and non-Celtic
                                > > > but also, conversely, loss of lexical items in the subsequent history
                                > > > of Insular Celtic).
                                > >
                                > > I never bought into the 'fundo carens' explanation, a mere guess by the ancients, and digging is not obviously involved. I consider it more plausible that Bodincus meant 'Muddy', agreeing with "acque melmose del Po", that the same stem occurs in the Bodensee, and that Celt. *bodjo- 'yellow' originally meant 'mud-colored'; likewise Japygian or Messapic *badja- borrowed into Latin as <badius> 'chestnut-colored, bay'.
                                >
                                > What possible reason is there to assume an unknown proto-form *bodjo- 'yellow' just so yet another unattested word could in some lng. other than Celtic give *badja- >> L? It looks like, again, you're trying to twist everything to "prove" that a word isn't Celtic, and instead of brw Celtic >> L it's Japygian/Messapic >> L. What possible theory are you trying to prove? What's the point? Do you know that *badyos > buide = yellow OI; is just as possible as *bodyos > buide = yellow OI; ?

                                Gaul. Bodiocasses 'Yellow-Tressed Ones' vel sim. demands Celt. *bodjo-, not *badjo-. Of course, you can always introduce opt. *o > a.

                                DGK
                              • dgkilday57
                                ... Your methodology is BEYOND unfalsifiable. Not only can you invent a Celtic etymology for ANY modern form (as indeed you boasted early in the discussion),
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jun 25, 2012
                                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > 2012/6/20, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:
                                  > >> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
                                  > >> > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
                                  > >>
                                  > >> [...]
                                  > >
                                  > >> >> Vero:na < *Wei-ro-pon-ah2 'curved river' lies exactly on the great
                                  > >> >> curve of the Adige.
                                  > >>
                                  > >> > DGK:
                                  > >> > So why was the RIVER not called that?
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                                  > >>
                                  > >> If You repeat the question, it becomes a more general question. Do
                                  > >> You admit that rivers can have had more names than today (I think You
                                  > >> do), therefore that these names can refer to different sections of the
                                  > >> river - corresponding to territorial units - and survive as
                                  > >> territorial names when one river-name wins over the other ones for the
                                  > >> same river?
                                  >
                                  > > DGK:
                                  > > The only reason to admit that would be to admit greater ethnolinguistic
                                  > > heterogeneity then than now, which again your model denies. And it is quite
                                  > > remarkable that 3 for 3 of your -o:na-names involve NO EVIDENCE that the
                                  > > rivers were EVER called that.
                                  >
                                  > Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                                  >
                                  > I've jut cited three examples for areal reasons. If You desire the
                                  > founding material, it's constituted by plenty of /-o:ne/-RIVER-names
                                  > (sometimes in correspondence with -ate-ford names on the same rivers,
                                  > like Vellone [Varese] < *welno-ponos 'good water' by Velate <
                                  > *welno-h1ah2tu-s, Caldone [Lecco] < *kah2udo-pono-s 'posterior water'
                                  > by Acquate < Coade < *kah2udo-h1yah2tu-s)

                                  Your methodology is BEYOND unfalsifiable. Not only can you invent a Celtic etymology for ANY modern form (as indeed you boasted early in the discussion), but you have tacked on conservative /p/-retaining enclaves for Porcobera and the Plinii (and any other inconvenient /p/, /o:/, or what-have-you). How could such a scheme even CONCEIVABLY fail? (And on the other side of the coin, of what possible scientific value is it?)

                                  Celtic etymologies should only be postulated under compelling evidence. We have Naro:na in Dalmatia, Scardo:na in Liburnia, and Flano:na in Istria (also the river Formio:, obviously Venetic). Skardon (Polyb.) against Scordus (Liv.) shows Illyrian against Venetic vocalism (cf. Lith. <skardu`s> 'steep'). Hence both Venetic and Illyrian (presumably along with Rhaetic) had -o:na(:) as a place-name suffix, and there is no need whatsoever to concoct vanished Celtic river-names in -o:na: < *-o-ponah2, unless you regard this whole business as a mere parlor game.

                                  DGK
                                • Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
                                  ... Bhrihskwobhloukstroy: I ve already written it, three times indeed (do You remember *Mefiopla:no-?) I think it suffices; You have never replied. I also note
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jun 26, 2012
                                    2012/6/26, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
                                    > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
                                    >>
                                    >> 2012/6/20, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:
                                    >> >> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
                                    >> >> > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
                                    >> >>
                                    >> >> [...]
                                    >> >
                                    >> >> >> Vero:na < *Wei-ro-pon-ah2 'curved river' lies exactly on the great
                                    >> >> >> curve of the Adige.
                                    >> >>
                                    >> >> > DGK:
                                    >> >> > So why was the RIVER not called that?
                                    >> >>
                                    >> >> Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                                    >> >>
                                    >> >> If You repeat the question, it becomes a more general question. Do
                                    >> >> You admit that rivers can have had more names than today (I think You
                                    >> >> do), therefore that these names can refer to different sections of the
                                    >> >> river - corresponding to territorial units - and survive as
                                    >> >> territorial names when one river-name wins over the other ones for the
                                    >> >> same river?
                                    >>
                                    >> > DGK:
                                    >> > The only reason to admit that would be to admit greater ethnolinguistic
                                    >> > heterogeneity then than now, which again your model denies. And it is
                                    >> > quite
                                    >> > remarkable that 3 for 3 of your -o:na-names involve NO EVIDENCE that
                                    >> > the
                                    >> > rivers were EVER called that.
                                    >>
                                    >> Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                                    >>
                                    >> I've jut cited three examples for areal reasons. If You desire the
                                    >> founding material, it's constituted by plenty of /-o:ne/-RIVER-names
                                    >> (sometimes in correspondence with -ate-ford names on the same rivers,
                                    >> like Vellone [Varese] < *welno-ponos 'good water' by Velate <
                                    >> *welno-h1ah2tu-s, Caldone [Lecco] < *kah2udo-pono-s 'posterior water'
                                    >> by Acquate < Coade < *kah2udo-h1yah2tu-s)

                                    > DGK:
                                    > Your methodology is BEYOND unfalsifiable. Not only can you invent a Celtic
                                    > etymology for ANY modern form (as indeed you boasted early in the
                                    > discussion), but you have tacked on conservative /p/-retaining enclaves for
                                    > Porcobera and the Plinii (and any other inconvenient /p/, /o:/, or
                                    > what-have-you). How could such a scheme even CONCEIVABLY fail? (And on the
                                    > other side of the coin, of what possible scientific value is it?)

                                    Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:

                                    I've already written it, three times indeed (do You remember
                                    *Mefiopla:no-?) I think it suffices; You have never replied.
                                    I also note You have never really answered to my objections about
                                    Your unfalsifiability (what You wrote - "real Celtic etymologies" - is
                                    by Yourself classified as Gaulish superstrate and therefore cannot
                                    work as possible falsification; it's You who destroy its value).
                                    I simply discuss about possible non-Celtic innovations (maybe this is
                                    the tenth time is undeline it, apparently without any success). You
                                    propose them, I criticize them and You attack everything else (ablaut
                                    etc.). This is the end of the story. You are too much in love with
                                    Your respectable theories, You never concedes other possibilities, no
                                    matter if they are correct. You have Your stratificationist model in
                                    mind and nobody can even defend alternative views, so this discussion
                                    has - since long - no more sense. Please consider Yourself and Your
                                    enormous Ego the absolute and cosmic Winner of this useless time-waste
                                    and then go on crying with Pope-like Infallibility Your dogmata.
                                    I don't care You accept my views. I've written some critical notes,
                                    You don't accept and this is enough. I hope I'll never have to discuss
                                    again with You.

                                    >
                                    > Celtic etymologies should only be postulated under compelling evidence. We
                                    > have Naro:na in Dalmatia, Scardo:na in Liburnia, and Flano:na in Istria
                                    > (also the river Formio:, obviously Venetic). Skardon (Polyb.) against
                                    > Scordus (Liv.) shows Illyrian against Venetic vocalism (cf. Lith. <skardu`s>
                                    > 'steep'). Hence both Venetic and Illyrian (presumably along with Rhaetic)
                                    > had -o:na(:) as a place-name suffix, and there is no need whatsoever to
                                    > concoct vanished Celtic river-names in -o:na: < *-o-ponah2, unless you
                                    > regard this whole business as a mere parlor game.
                                    >
                                    > DGK

                                    Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
                                    Such a reasoning would consider Alaska a Ligurian name
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