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[tied] Re: Morimarusa

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  • Tavi
    ... Delamarre objects to this that *wºlkW-o- should have given Old Irish **flech and Gaulish **ulipos, so he links the Irish word to the ethnonym Uolcos
    Message 1 of 241 , May 10, 2012
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      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@...> wrote:
      >
      > > On the other hand a Celtic loanword is also formally
      > > possible, since we have Old Irish <olc> 'evil'; something
      > > like *mori-ulk- might literally have meant 'Seeteufel'.
      > > How plausible this is as a loanword under these
      > > circumstances, I cannot say.
      >
      > Matasovic derives OIr. <olc> from PCelt. *ulkWo- 'bad,
      > evil', from PIE *wlkWo- 'wolf'. He notes a Lepontic PN
      > <Ulkos>. He adds a note:
      >
      > The meaning of this word in PCelt. could have been 'wolf',
      > as in PIE. Another etymology, less persuasive in my
      > opinion, relates OIr. <olc> to Lat. <ulciscor> 'take
      > vengeance'.
      >
      > His references for this entry: LEIA O-19f., LP 43, De
      > Bernardo Stempel 1999: 553, McCone 1985, McCone 1996: 44.
      >
      Delamarre objects to this that *wºlkW-o- should have given Old Irish **flech and Gaulish **ulipos, so he links the Irish word to the ethnonym Uolcos 'falcon', which he relates to Latin falco: < *g^wol-k- (traditional *g^h), from a root *g^wel- 'to curve'.
    • Tavi
      ... Irish ... ethnonym ... (preferably in its ASCII or Latin-1 form), modified only where you think it misidentifies the correspondences of the sounds or
      Message 241 of 241 , May 11, 2012
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Wordingham"
        <richard.wordingham@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Delamarre objects to this that *wºlkW-o- should have given Old
        Irish
        > > **flech and Gaulish **ulipos, so he links the Irish word to the
        ethnonym
        > > Uolcos 'falcon', which he relates to Latin falco: < *g^wol-k-
        > > (traditional *g^h), from a root *g^wel- 'to curve'.
        >
        > In the interests of clarity, please use the standard spelling
        (preferably in its ASCII or Latin-1 form), modified only where you think
        it misidentifies the correspondences of the sounds or phonemes involved.
        If you need to make a point about what you think the actual
        pronunciation was, use square brackets ([]). (I am speaking as a
        member, not a moderator.)
        >
        I don't think this is a matter of transcription/encoding as much as of
        the actual choice of the reconstructed phonemes. For reasons I stated
        before, I think classical "voiced aspirated" stops (series III) were
        actually *plain* voiced, so there's no point in perpetuating their
        corresponding symbols. IMHO, there're two possible choices for the PIE
        stop system, depending on if one includes glottalics or not:

        series I - voiceless (phonologically aspirated) / voiceless aspirated
        series II - glottalic / (unaspirated) voiceless
        series III - voiced

        The first system is the one reconstructed for Proto-Kartvelian and the
        second one for Proto-Altaic. The latter has the advantage as being more
        flexible as regarding the outcome of earlier glottalics, variable among
        paleo-dialects.
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