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Re: [tied] Ligurian

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  • dgkilday57
    ... [Bh.:] ... No, my theory explains *bartis as a toponomastic loanword from Ligurian to Celtic, with no phonological criteria applied by the borrowers. Its
    Message 1 of 248 , May 3, 2012
      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
      >>
      > [top-posting corrected]
      > >>
      > >> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
      > >> <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
      > >>>
      > >>> Sorry, my fault (false friend: I have taken it from DIL, but with
      > >>> German Mädchen in mind, so I've been deceived by ingen 'Mädchen' =
      > >>> maiden in backtranslation).
      > >>> But nevertheless: bairt 'girl' : Gothic barn 'child' (I was about
      > >>> to write 'kind'!...), once attested (+ bairte), we're linguists, not
      > >>> lawyers ("testis unus testis nullus"), so why doubtful? The Auraicept
      > >>> na n-éces are after all a trustworthy source. Whence otherwise
      > >>> Continental Celtic *Bartia:kon > Barzâgh / Barzago (Lecch / Lecco
      > >>> [Lombardy])?
      > >>
      > >> Whence otherwise? From Ligurian, of course, with a secondary ending from
      > >> Gaulish superstrate. To wit, PIE *bHr.ti'- 'act of bearing' (Skt.
      > >> <bhr.ti's.>, Av. <-b@r@tis^>, Lat. <fors> 'luck, chance', OE <ge-byrd>
      > >> 'birth', etc.) regularly yields Lig. *bartis 'inflow, inlet, site of
      > >> importation' vel sim., cognate with Celt. *britis 'carrying, judgment'
      > >> (OIr
      > >> <brith>, etc.). Retained as a local term by the Gaulish invaders,
      > >> *bartis
      > >> becomes the base of *Bartia:kon 'town near the inlet' vel sim. Much
      > >> better
      > >> than trying to explain it as pure Celtic.
      > >>
      > >> DGK

      [Bh.:]
      > And of course Your theory predicts that the Gaulish invaders have
      > been so careful to retain from Ligurian just those terms whose /ar/
      > was from PIE syllabic */r/ before stop (while all other place-names
      > [200] are plainly Celtic) and to let them arrive to Ireland just in
      > time for a registration in the Auraicept na n-�ces...

      No, my theory explains *bartis as a toponomastic loanword from Ligurian to Celtic, with no phonological criteria applied by the borrowers. Its retention is, pardon the root, fortuitous. Kilday finally gets some good luck!

      > If You really think that all these surely plausible but surely ad
      > hoc conjectures are better than a straightforward Celtic
      > Lautgesetzlichkeit, please continue, so that all Members will judge by
      > themselves who is right

      The jury (Piotr, Anders, etc.) is still out on the sequence of soundlaws required for you to have your /o:/-grade. In the meantime, you have dumped a truckload of place-names which you have uniformly explained as Celtic, often by merely citing similar-sounding Irish, Welsh, or Breton words. Now, I have no doubt that many of these names are indeed Celtic, such as those implying *Brig-. But your methodology provides no means of distinguishing Celtic from non-Celtic, presuming you have already weeded out Roman and later names. It is like a broken sieve of Eratosthenes which declares every odd integer a prime. Rather than attempting to deal with the entire truckload at once, I intend to post comments addressing individual place-names as this thread continues.

      DGK
    • Tavi
      ... This is from IE *kWer- to make, to build Sanskrit karóti, imp. kuru, kºrn.óti- to do, to make . In some IE languages, this lexeme refers to magic,
      Message 248 of 248 , Apr 22, 2013
        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" wrote:
        >
        > The verb kal-ite is obviously from IE *kelH- 'to raise', but kar-ite
        > must be a loanword from Etruscan car- 'to make' (cfr. car-u 'made').
        >
        This is from IE *kWer- 'to make, to build' > Sanskrit karóti, imp.
        kuru, kºrn.óti- 'to do, to make'. In some IE languages, this
        lexeme refers to magic, as in Celtic *kWritu- 'magical transformation,
        shape'.

        This is also the origin of Cisalpine Gaulish karnitu 'he built' (Todi),
        wrongly linked to Celtic *karno- 'heap of stones' by specialists.
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