Re: [tied] Ligurian
- --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
>AFAIK, nobody has ever insinuated Iberian could be an IE language. In fact, it looks more similar to Basque than to any other language. I'll give you a sample of one of the earliest Iberian texts (La Serreta lead foil I) so you can judge for yourself:
> > Then tell me why how could Basque, Iberian, Etruscan and other non-IE
> > languages exist in Europe?
> Only an affiliation to a linguistic family is demonstrable; lack
> of affiliation is never a granted conclusion. So the non-IE status of
> Iberian, unless its affiliation to a non-IE family should be
> demonstrated, runs the risk to be only provisional.
ir´ike orti gar´okan dadula bas´k buis´tiner bagar´ok [sssx<] tur´[a]bai[d]ur´a legus´egik baser´okeiunbaida ur´ke basbidir´bartin ir´ike baser´okar tebind belagasikaur´ isbinai asgandis tagisgar´ok binike bin s´alir kidei gaibigait
The last sentence is a property formula: I am of Sakar´isker´.
> Apart from Etruscan, whose arrival in Etruria may be relativelyYou should have said the *successive* colonizations of Europe, because they were two of them (Aurignician and Gravettian) in the Upper Paleolithic, followed from a more recent one in the Neolithic.
> late (according to the everlasting debate about its origin from
> Anatolia - be it an Indo-European language or not), the linguistic
> colonization of Europe in Prehistory is in no way a single-place trip;
> every language can have taken part to the first anthropization of the
> > As I said before, "PIE" isn't a real language. That's all.On the contrary, I've given several reasons which lead to that conclusion, and this is precisely why my own model is closer to Villar's than to Alinei's or your own. The only real language IE-ists' "PIE" can at best approximate is the paleo-dialect of the Steppes, which apparently acted as a superstrate to other paleo-varieties in the genesis of the historical IE languages.
> Do You see? PIE cannot be a real language just because You have
> *said* it. Note that You have never given any demonstration. You act
> as if You were a God: what You say must be real, everything that
> contradicts to what You say must be false.
> > From French lande (a direct descendant of the Gaulish form), dialectalA little correction: the Portuguese word doesn't means 'heath' but 'highland pasture/hamlet'.
> > Portuguese branda and Gascon brana 'heath', we can reconstruct a Celtic
> > protoform *Flanda: 'heath, uncultivated land'. In Insular Celtic and
> > elsehwere, this word shifted its meaning to 'fallow land' and ultimately
> > to 'land', probably linked to the spread of new agricultural
> > technologies.
> Your etymologies are in no way incorrect; we could pleasantlyI'd glad to do so.
> discuss about them (I'd have some objections about details),
> but it would be useless because Your fundamental *error* is that You neverBy no means this is correct.
> consider that two or more possibilities can compete.
> In Your 'humble'This is far from truth.
> opinion, Your hypotheses are automatically 100% sure
> so there's never room for other hypotheses.
> You don't even consider a scenario in whichI'm afraid this isn't a matter of quantity but rather of *quality*. The postulate of "all things being equal" doesn't hold here.
> Your hypothesis has 90% or 50% or 20% of probability, according to the
> amount of other competing hypotheses.
> As You see, I'm not tied to my ideas: I have a gigantic scheme inAnd of course, your own hypothesis is always at the top.
> which every theory - Your one as well - can find its proper place; in
> this scheme there are some hypotheses that I particularly like, other
> ones that I develop just because they haven't been considered till
> now, but my goal is to build a hierarchy of probabilities, where even
> the less probable - but always rational - hypothesis can be the really
> true explanation.
> If on one side I propose palaeolithic PIEMy model isn't actually "the opposite extreme" of yours. In fact, I agree with you that the last common ancestor of all IE languages was spoken in the Upper Palaeolithic, but unfortunately it has little to do with the "PIE" reconstructed in the 19th century by neogrammarians using the comparative method.
> etymologies, on the other side I'm compelled to take into
> consideration the opposite extreme, as e.g. Your model.
> So, a confrontation of both models cannot emerge from ourOn the contrary, I see dogmatism on your part, namely your adherence to the traditional PIE model which can only describe with a reasonable degree of accuracy the more recent stages in the development of the IE family.
> discussion. For me, it's much more useful that You write and propose
> new etymologies (instead of declaring that mine are wrong); for You,
> my arguments are completely devoid of value, so it would be the same
> or even better if I wouldn't express them. In sum, this discussion has
> been a tremendous waste of time for both. It has been, moreover, a
> further proof that a scientific discussion is often impossible.
> When You'll propose a new etymology, I'll be happy (this is
> automatically valid from now onwards, as it was before); when I'll
> propose a new etymology, You'll write that You "strongly disagree" and
> You'll bring no arguments except a different etymology of Yours, but
> I'll try to avoid any reply, because what You consider rational is
> just dogmatism for me and what I consider rational is consequence of
> an unwarranted assumption - and therefore wrong (which is, in my
> opinion, a false conclusion) - for You.
> Please keep me and us informed of Your etymologiesI'll continue to do so. And please stop writing "you" with an initial capital.
- --- In email@example.com, "Tavi" wrote:
>This is from IE *kWer- 'to make, to build' > Sanskrit karÃ³ti, imp.
> The verb kal-ite is obviously from IE *kelH- 'to raise', but kar-ite
> must be a loanword from Etruscan car- 'to make' (cfr. car-u 'made').
kuru, kÂºrn.Ã³ti- 'to do, to make'. In some IE languages, this
lexeme refers to magic, as in Celtic *kWritu- 'magical transformation,
This is also the origin of Cisalpine Gaulish karnitu 'he built' (Todi),
wrongly linked to Celtic *karno- 'heap of stones' by specialists.