Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [tied] Re: Hercynian (again)

Expand Messages
  • Brian M. Scott
    ... [...] ... Don t be ridiculous. ... True, but irrelevant to the silly charge of racism. ... Actually, it *isn t* always written by the winners, though
    Message 1 of 96 , Feb 29, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      At 7:21:28 AM on Wednesday, February 29, 2012, Tavi wrote:

      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
      > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:

      [...]

      >> I too consider the tradition PIE model as inadequate. I'd
      >> like to replace it with a model without language
      >> replacements and with just one tree, but with a couple of
      >> dozens of branch-crossings. So, a very strongly
      >> genealogical - but in noway binaristic - model, where
      >> there must have existed at least 500 diatopically
      >> differents branches of PIE still in PIE phonology from
      >> Atlantic to China along 40 millennia. [...]

      > I'm afraid your model not only is unrealistic but also a
      > RACIST one,

      Don't be ridiculous.

      > because language replacement processes have existed all
      > throught the history of mankind,

      True, but irrelevant to the silly charge of racism.

      > although History is always written (and often also
      > rewritten) by the winners.

      Actually, it *isn't* always written by the winners, though
      certainly this is very, very often the case.

      Brian
    • Tavi
      ... However, they ... spread glottis], so ... languages ... other ... While I still think aspiration is the stop series III is an areal feature of some IE
      Message 96 of 96 , Apr 21, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski gpiotr@ wrote:
        > >
        > > I'm afraid this is actually a huge misrepresentation, because
        > > aspiration is a feature of VOICELESS consonants, not voiced ones. However, they
        > > could be treated as "breathy voiced" or "murmured", which in IPA
        > > have got a raised [*h\*] (the voiced counterpart of [*h*]).
        >
        > Breathy voice patterns phonologically with aspiration in
        > Indo-European, especially in Indo-Aryan (Grassmann's Law).
        > They are both phonetic manifestations of the distinctive feature [+ spread glottis], so
        > there's no need to be pedantic about the distinction.
        >
        > > I strongly disagree. Grassmann's Law only applies to those IE languages
        > > which have true aspirated stops in series III, so IMHO there's no
        > > justification for reconstructing a "voiced aspirated" (or whatever other
        > > name you choose) series in PIE.
        >
        While I still think aspiration is the stop series III is an areal feature of some IE languages, and hence not reconstructable for PIE, I've discovered a couple of possible examples of Grassmann's Law in Latin:

        Latin pinguis < *pÂșngW-i- < traditional PIE *bhengh-u- 'thick, abundant'
        Latin pra:tum < *prex-to- < traditional PIE *bhergh- 'high'
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.