Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Hessen

Expand Messages
  • dgkilday57
    Equating the medieval and modern Hessen with Tacitus s Chatti involves three phonological problems. The latter presumably represents Germanic *Xatto:z, which
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 21, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Equating the medieval and modern Hessen with Tacitus's Chatti involves three phonological problems. The latter presumably represents Germanic *Xatto:z, which has the wrong declension, the wrong internal consonantism, and nothing to umlaut the /a/. If Tacitus had actually known about any ancient Hessen, and their name was native, his term should have been *Chationes.

      Modern <Kassel> apparently continues Latin <castellum> 'fortress'. The local development -st- > -ss- suggests that <Hessen> could similarly continue Lat. *hastio:ne:s 'spear-men', from <hasta> 'spear'. A parallel Gmc. borrowing is seen in Old English <cempa> 'soldier, warrior' from Lat. <campio:> '(battle)field-man', in turn from <campus> 'field'.

      Kassel, of course, is well beyond the Rhine. What I propose is that Roman colonization was under way in Augustan times, and a fortress was established there. Local warriors were hired as elite guards for the Roman officials in the area, and were known as *Hastio:ne:s, since they carried spears. Then Arminius's attack changed everything, and Augustus in panic ordered the withdrawal of Romans from farther Germany. But the *Hastio:ne:s remained in a privileged position among the native military, and quickly established themselves as the ruling class of the Kassel area after the Romans left.

      When the Hessen appear in records of the eighth century (Hessiones, Hessii, Hassii, Hassi), they inhabit only the Hessengau proper (Hessigouui, Hassia). The later expansion of the Hessian name to the much larger area of modern Hesse is the result of dynastic politics, as pointed out by W. Braune, "Germanisches <ss> und die <Hessen>" (IF 4:341-51, 1894). That is, the original Hessen occupied only a small part of the territory of the ancient Chatti, which poses a fourth problem for anyone trying to equate the names.

      DGK
    • stlatos
      ... There are many problems w what you wrote. First, see: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/36534 Also, assuming conn. w hætt OE; hat E;
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 21, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Equating the medieval and modern Hessen with Tacitus's Chatti involves three phonological problems. The latter presumably represents Germanic *Xatto:z, which has the wrong declension, the wrong internal consonantism, and nothing to umlaut the /a/. If Tacitus had actually known about any ancient Hessen, and their name was native, his term should have been *Chationes.
        >
        > Modern <Kassel> apparently continues Latin <castellum> 'fortress'. The local development -st- > -ss- suggests that <Hessen> could similarly continue Lat. *hastio:ne:s 'spear-men', from <hasta> 'spear'. A parallel Gmc. borrowing is seen in Old English <cempa> 'soldier, warrior' from Lat. <campio:> '(battle)field-man', in turn from <campus> 'field'.
        >
        > Kassel, of course, is well beyond the Rhine. What I propose is that Roman colonization was under way in Augustan times, and a fortress was established there. Local warriors were hired as elite guards for the Roman officials in the area, and were known as *Hastio:ne:s, since they carried spears. Then Arminius's attack changed everything, and Augustus in panic ordered the withdrawal of Romans from farther Germany. But the *Hastio:ne:s remained in a privileged position among the native military, and quickly established themselves as the ruling class of the Kassel area after the Romans left.
        >


        There are many problems w what you wrote. First, see:

        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/36534


        Also, assuming conn. w hætt OE; hat E; there could also have been a variant related to:

        cassis cassidis (g) = helmet L;


        There's a lot that could complicate the search, but I don't think much does, certainly not what you said.
      • Rick McCallister
        Please refresh my memory. How long were the Romans in (Northern and Central) Germania before Arminius s attack? About 50-60 years? Or less? How far did they
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 21, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Please refresh my memory.
          How long were the Romans in (Northern and Central) Germania before Arminius's attack? About 50-60 years? Or less?
          How far did they make it?
          I've seen sloppy maps in popular publications that show the Romans either at the Elbe, the Oder or even the Vistula but how far did they really extend, or do we even know?

          From: stlatos <stlatos@...>
          To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:27 PM
          Subject: [tied] Re: Hessen

           


          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Equating the medieval and modern Hessen with Tacitus's Chatti involves three phonological problems. The latter presumably represents Germanic *Xatto:z, which has the wrong declension, the wrong internal consonantism, and nothing to umlaut the /a/. If Tacitus had actually known about any ancient Hessen, and their name was native, his term should have been *Chationes.
          >
          > Modern <Kassel> apparently continues Latin <castellum> 'fortress'. The local development -st- > -ss- suggests that <Hessen> could similarly continue Lat. *hastio:ne:s 'spear-men', from <hasta> 'spear'. A parallel Gmc. borrowing is seen in Old English <cempa> 'soldier, warrior' from Lat. <campio:> '(battle)field-man', in turn from <campus> 'field'.
          >
          > Kassel, of course, is well beyond the Rhine. What I propose is that Roman colonization was under way in Augustan times, and a fortress was established there. Local warriors were hired as elite guards for the Roman officials in the area, and were known as *Hastio:ne:s, since they carried spears. Then Arminius's attack changed everything, and Augustus in panic ordered the withdrawal of Romans from farther Germany. But the *Hastio:ne:s remained in a privileged position among the native military, and quickly established themselves as the ruling class of the Kassel area after the Romans left.
          >

          There are many problems w what you wrote. First, see:

          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/36534

          Also, assuming conn. w hætt OE; hat E; there could also have been a variant related to:

          cassis cassidis (g) = helmet L;

          There's a lot that could complicate the search, but I don't think much does, certainly not what you said.



        • guestu5er
          ... Cf. German Kampf struggle, fight, battle & Kämpfer. Cf. Kämpe (of Low German/Old Saxon orig.) = Kämpfer. ... But Kassel was attestet only in 913
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 22, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            >A parallel Gmc. borrowing is seen in Old English <cempa> 'soldier,
            >warrior' from Lat. <campio:> '(battle)field-man', in turn from
            ><campus> 'field'.

            Cf. German Kampf "struggle, fight, battle" & Kämpfer. Cf. Kämpe
            (of Low German/Old Saxon orig.) = Kämpfer.

            >>What I propose is that Roman colonization was under way in
            >>Augustan times

            But Kassel was attestet only in 913 (under Konrad I), with the
            spellings Chassalla, Chassella. (NB, until 1926, Cassel was also
            an official spelling.)

            And: why should this toponym be put in connection with a Latin
            word?

            George
          • Torsten
            ... Consider yourself refreshed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_the_Roman_Empire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germania_Magna The Romans under
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 22, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:
              >
              > Please refresh my memory.
              > How long were the Romans in (Northern and Central) Germania before
              > Arminius's attack? About 50-60 years? Or less?
              > How far did they make it?
              > I've seen sloppy maps in popular publications that show the Romans
              > either at the Elbe, the Oder or even the Vistula but how far did
              > they really extend, or do we even know?
              >

              Consider yourself refreshed:
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_the_Roman_Empire
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germania_Magna
              'The Romans under Augustus began to conquer and defeat the peoples of Germania Magna in 12 BC, having the Legati (generals) Germanicus and Tiberius leading the Legions. By AD 6, all of Germania up to the River Elbe was temporarily pacified by the Romans as well as being occupied by them.'


              Torsten
            • guestu5er
              ... Ptolemy s map: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Ptolemaeus_Magna_Germania.jpg ... Castellum Cattorum, East of the Eastern border (in
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 22, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                >How long were the Romans in (Northern and Central) Germania before
                >Arminius's attack? About 50-60 years? Or less?
                > How far did they make it?

                Ptolemy's map:

                http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Ptolemaeus_Magna_Germania.jpg

                > I've seen sloppy maps in popular publications that show the Romans
                >either at the Elbe, the Oder or even the Vistula but how far did
                >they really extend, or do we even know?

                Castellum Cattorum, East of the Eastern border (in pink), on this
                map:

                http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Ancient_Germania_-_New_York%2C_Harper_and_Brothers_1849.jpg

                George
              • dgkilday57
                ... I do not find this explanation convincing. It requires a tribe to give up its native name in favor of a clumsily Latinized form of the name. That would
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 22, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Equating the medieval and modern Hessen with Tacitus's Chatti involves three phonological problems. The latter presumably represents Germanic *Xatto:z, which has the wrong declension, the wrong internal consonantism, and nothing to umlaut the /a/. If Tacitus had actually known about any ancient Hessen, and their name was native, his term should have been *Chationes.
                  > >
                  > > Modern <Kassel> apparently continues Latin <castellum> 'fortress'. The local development -st- > -ss- suggests that <Hessen> could similarly continue Lat. *hastio:ne:s 'spear-men', from <hasta> 'spear'. A parallel Gmc. borrowing is seen in Old English <cempa> 'soldier, warrior' from Lat. <campio:> '(battle)field-man', in turn from <campus> 'field'.
                  > >
                  > > Kassel, of course, is well beyond the Rhine. What I propose is that Roman colonization was under way in Augustan times, and a fortress was established there. Local warriors were hired as elite guards for the Roman officials in the area, and were known as *Hastio:ne:s, since they carried spears. Then Arminius's attack changed everything, and Augustus in panic ordered the withdrawal of Romans from farther Germany. But the *Hastio:ne:s remained in a privileged position among the native military, and quickly established themselves as the ruling class of the Kassel area after the Romans left.
                  > >
                  >
                  > There are many problems w what you wrote. First, see:
                  >
                  > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/36534

                  I do not find this explanation convincing. It requires a tribe to give up its native name in favor of a clumsily Latinized form of the name. That would be like Americans calling themselves Melicans after the Chinatown pronunciation.

                  > Also, assuming conn. w hætt OE; hat E; there could also have been a variant related to:
                  >
                  > cassis cassidis (g) = helmet L;

                  No such variant is found in the Latin and Greek sources. Of course, nothing prevents you from pulling whatever you desire out of your own hat.

                  > There's a lot that could complicate the search, but I don't think much does, certainly not what you said.

                  Of course not. I am only a fool, ignorant of opt. soundlaws.

                  DGK
                • dgkilday57
                  ... Under my hypothesis, the place was out of the Roman orbit after the post-Arminian withdrawal, and so did not appear in records. ... I have no better
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 22, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "guestu5er" <guestuser.0x9357@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > >A parallel Gmc. borrowing is seen in Old English <cempa> 'soldier,
                    > >warrior' from Lat. <campio:> '(battle)field-man', in turn from
                    > ><campus> 'field'.
                    >
                    > Cf. German Kampf "struggle, fight, battle" & Kämpfer. Cf. Kämpe
                    > (of Low German/Old Saxon orig.) = Kämpfer.
                    >
                    > >>What I propose is that Roman colonization was under way in
                    > >>Augustan times
                    >
                    > But Kassel was attestet only in 913 (under Konrad I), with the
                    > spellings Chassalla, Chassella. (NB, until 1926, Cassel was also
                    > an official spelling.)

                    Under my hypothesis, the place was out of the Roman orbit after the post-Arminian withdrawal, and so did not appear in records.

                    > And: why should this toponym be put in connection with a Latin
                    > word?

                    I have no better explanation of this toponym. If there is one, I will drop my hypothesis like a hot potato.

                    DGK
                  • stlatos
                    ... Like Italy? Or Germany? Or Spain? Nothing unusual is needed.
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 22, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
                      > > >

                      > > > Equating the medieval and modern Hessen with Tacitus's Chatti involves three phonological problems. The latter presumably represents Germanic *Xatto:z, which has the wrong declension, the wrong internal consonantism, and nothing to umlaut the /a/. If Tacitus had actually known about any ancient Hessen, and their name was native, his term should have been *Chationes.
                      > > >

                      > >
                      > > There are many problems w what you wrote. First, see:
                      > >
                      > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/36534

                      >
                      > I do not find this explanation convincing. It requires a tribe to give up its native name in favor of a clumsily Latinized form of the name.


                      Like Italy? Or Germany? Or Spain? Nothing unusual is needed.
                    • bmscotttg
                      ... Not one of those three names represents a tribe giving up its native name in favor of a clumsily Latinized form of the name. Brian
                      Message 10 of 12 , Feb 22, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@...> wrote:

                        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@>
                        > wrote:

                        >> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@> wrote:

                        >>> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@>
                        >>> wrote:

                        >>>> Equating the medieval and modern Hessen with Tacitus's
                        >>>> Chatti involves three phonological problems. The latter
                        >>>> presumably represents Germanic *Xatto:z, which has the
                        >>>> wrong declension, the wrong internal consonantism, and
                        >>>> nothing to umlaut the /a/. If Tacitus had actually known
                        >>>> about any ancient Hessen, and their name was native, his
                        >>>> term should have been *Chationes.

                        >>> There are many problems w what you wrote. First, see:

                        >>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/36534

                        >> I do not find this explanation convincing. It requires a
                        >> tribe to give up its native name in favor of a clumsily
                        >> Latinized form of the name.

                        > Like Italy? Or Germany? Or Spain?

                        Not one of those three names represents a tribe giving up its
                        native name in favor of a clumsily Latinized form of the name.

                        Brian
                      • Torsten
                        ... I used to think so too. However http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/13703 it does happen. ... The words appears, as
                        Message 11 of 12 , Feb 23, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Equating the medieval and modern Hessen with Tacitus's Chatti involves three phonological problems. The latter presumably represents Germanic *Xatto:z, which has the wrong declension, the wrong internal consonantism, and nothing to umlaut the /a/. If Tacitus had actually known about any ancient Hessen, and their name was native, his term should have been *Chationes.
                          > > >
                          > > > Modern <Kassel> apparently continues Latin <castellum>
                          > > > 'fortress'. The local development -st- > -ss- suggests that
                          > > > <Hessen> could similarly continue Lat. *hastio:ne:s 'spear-men',
                          > > > from <hasta> 'spear'. A parallel Gmc. borrowing is seen in Old
                          > > > English <cempa> 'soldier, warrior' from Lat. <campio:>
                          > > > '(battle)field-man', in turn from <campus> 'field'.
                          > > >
                          > > > Kassel, of course, is well beyond the Rhine. What I propose is
                          > > > that Roman colonization was under way in Augustan times, and a
                          > > > fortress was established there. Local warriors were hired as
                          > > > elite guards for the Roman officials in the area, and were known
                          > > > as *Hastio:ne:s, since they carried spears. Then Arminius's
                          > > > attack changed everything, and Augustus in panic ordered the
                          > > > withdrawal of Romans from farther Germany. But the *Hastio:ne:s
                          > > > remained in a privileged position among the native military, and
                          > > > quickly established themselves as the ruling class of the Kassel
                          > > > area after the Romans left.
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > There are many problems w what you wrote. First, see:
                          > >
                          > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/36534
                          >
                          > I do not find this explanation convincing. It requires a tribe to
                          > give up its native name in favor of a clumsily Latinized form of the
                          > name. That would be like Americans calling themselves Melicans
                          > after the Chinatown pronunciation.

                          I used to think so too. However
                          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/13703
                          it does happen.

                          > > Also, assuming conn. w hætt OE; hat E; there could also have
                          > > been a variant related to:
                          > >
                          > > cassis cassidis (g) = helmet L;
                          >
                          > No such variant is found in the Latin and Greek sources. Of course,
                          > nothing prevents you from pulling whatever you desire out of your
                          > own hat.
                          >
                          > > There's a lot that could complicate the search, but I don't
                          > > think much does, certainly not what you said.
                          >
                          > Of course not. I am only a fool, ignorant of opt. soundlaws.

                          The words appears, as
                          *katt-/*kant-/*ka:t-/*kass-/*kans-/*ka:s-
                          all over the place
                          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/55551?var=0&l=1
                          having to do with a military organization which most likely was borrowed from elsewhere,
                          see thread following
                          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65159?var=0&l=1
                          meaning originally an organized group of hundred men (cavalry?)
                          of which I suspect PIE *kent-om to be a pl.gen.

                          I never got around to translating Kuhn's article on the geminate problem in Germanic
                          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/46155?var=0&l=1

                          Another word group comes to mind with the same impossible set of geminates and the same partial violation of Grimm etc, namely the one around 'cunnus':
                          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/46174
                          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62677




                          Torsten
                        • Torsten
                          ... I used to think so too. However http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/13703 it does happen. ... The words appears, as
                          Message 12 of 12 , Feb 27, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

                            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > Equating the medieval and modern Hessen with Tacitus's Chatti
                            > > involves three phonological problems. The latter presumably
                            > > represents Germanic *Xatto:z, which has the wrong declension,
                            > > the wrong internal consonantism, and nothing to umlaut the /a/.
                            > > If Tacitus had actually known about any ancient Hessen, and
                            > > their name was native, his term should have been *Chationes.
                            > > >
                            > > > Modern <Kassel> apparently continues Latin <castellum>
                            > > > 'fortress'. The local development -st- > -ss- suggests that
                            > > > <Hessen> could similarly continue Lat. *hastio:ne:s 'spear-men',
                            > > > from <hasta> 'spear'. A parallel Gmc. borrowing is seen in Old
                            > > > English <cempa> 'soldier, warrior' from Lat. <campio:>
                            > > > '(battle)field-man', in turn from <campus> 'field'.
                            > > >
                            > > > Kassel, of course, is well beyond the Rhine. What I propose is
                            > > > that Roman colonization was under way in Augustan times, and a
                            > > > fortress was established there. Local warriors were hired as
                            > > > elite guards for the Roman officials in the area, and were known
                            > > > as *Hastio:ne:s, since they carried spears. Then Arminius's
                            > > > attack changed everything, and Augustus in panic ordered the
                            > > > withdrawal of Romans from farther Germany. But the *Hastio:ne:s
                            > > > remained in a privileged position among the native military, and
                            > > > quickly established themselves as the ruling class of the Kassel
                            > > > area after the Romans left.
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > There are many problems w what you wrote. First, see:
                            > >
                            > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/36534
                            >
                            > I do not find this explanation convincing. It requires a tribe to
                            > give up its native name in favor of a clumsily Latinized form of the
                            > name. That would be like Americans calling themselves Melicans
                            > after the Chinatown pronunciation.

                            I used to think so too. However
                            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/13703
                            it does happen.

                            > > Also, assuming conn. w hætt OE; hat E; there could also have
                            > > been a variant related to:
                            > >
                            > > cassis cassidis (g) = helmet L;
                            >
                            > No such variant is found in the Latin and Greek sources. Of course,
                            > nothing prevents you from pulling whatever you desire out of your
                            > own hat.
                            >
                            > > There's a lot that could complicate the search, but I don't
                            > > think much does, certainly not what you said.
                            >
                            > Of course not. I am only a fool, ignorant of opt. soundlaws.

                            The words appears, as
                            *katt-/*kant-/*ka:t-/*kass-/*kans-/*ka:s-
                            all over the place
                            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/55551?var=0&l=1
                            having to do with a military organization which most likely was borrowed from elsewhere,
                            see thread following
                            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65159?var=0&l=1
                            meaning originally an organized group of hundred men (cavalry?)
                            of which I suspect PIE *kent-om to be a pl.gen.
                            Cf. also Venetic 'kanta rumana' "the Roman people/community"
                            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/67913?var=0&l=1

                            I never got around to translating Kuhn's article on the geminate problem in Germanic
                            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/46155?var=0&l=1

                            Another word group comes to mind with the same impossible set of geminates and the same partial violation of Grimm etc, namely the one around 'cunnus':
                            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/46174
                            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62677



                            Torsten
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.