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Re: PIE *kreus-

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  • Torsten
    ... (لسان العرب) القَر� سُ والقِر� سُ: أَب� رَدُ الصَ�`قيع وأَكثره وأَشدُ�` البَر� دِ
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 9, 2011
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      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "The Egyptian Chronicles"
      <the_egyptian_chronicles@...> wrote:
      >
      > In researching the topic of "crustacea " I came across the following
      > dilemma:
      >
      > PIE has *krus-to- "that which has been hardened," from base
      > *kreus- "to begin to freeze, form a crust". Until recently this was
      > thought to be exclusively Indo-European. However, this notion can be
      > discarded when compared with Classical Arabic (a non Indo-European
      > language) which has the term "qrs" with the exact range of
      > meanings.
      >
      > In general, a proto-language is not known directly and its
      > reconstruction is only arrived at by comparing different members of
      > the language family through the comparative method. Yet an obvious
      > complication occurs when the range of the isogloss is spread across
      > different language families. In this case, the inclusion of the
      > Arabic "qrs" a non Indo-European language. In such a situation,
      > the validity of the reconstruction of PIE is brought into question,
      > especially in light of Arabic which has two additional synonyms such
      > as "gld" for cold/snow and "frs" for frost, rendering a loaned word
      > situation less of a probability
      >
      > If some might then suggest a Nostratic word, then this isogloss
      > inclusiveness reinforces further the repelling of *kreus- as a
      > valid PIE reconstruction.
      >
      >
      > Below is the data outlining the problem:
      >
      >
      > INDO-EUROPEAN
      >
      > Crustacea 1814, from Mod.L. neut. pl. of crustaceus (animalia), lit.
      > "having a crust or shell," from L. crusta "crust, rind, bark, hard
      > shell" (see crust). Taken as a zoological classification by Lamarck,
      > 1801; Cuvier (1798) had les insectes crustacées.
      >
      > crust early 14c., "hard outer part of bread," from O.Fr. crouste
      > (13c., Mod.Fr. croûte) and directly from L. crusta "rind, crust,
      > shell, bark," from PIE *krus-to- "that which has been hardened,"
      > from base *kreus- "to begin to freeze, form a crust" (cf. Skt. krud-
      > "make hard, thicken;" Avestan xruzdra- "hard;" Gk. krystallos "ice,
      > crystal," kryos "icy cold, frost;" Lett. kruwesis "frozen mud;"
      > O.H.G. hrosa "ice, crust;" O.E. hruse "earth;" O.N. hroðr "scurf").
      > Meaning "outer shell of the earth" is from 1550s. As a verb, from
      > late 14c. Related: Crusted; crusting.
      >
      >
      > CLASSICAL ARABIC "QRS" (from Lisan al-Arab)
      >
      (لسان العرب)
      القَر�'سُ والقِر�'سُ: أَب�'رَدُ الصَ�`قيع
      وأَكثره وأَشدُ�` البَر�'دِ

      وقَرَسَ الماءَ يَق�'رِسُ قَر�'ساً، فهو
      قَرِيسٌ: جَمَدَ.
      وقَرَ�`س�'ناه وأَق�'رَس�'ناه: بَرَ�`د�'ناه.
      ويقال: قَرَ�`س�'ت الماء في الشَ�`نِ�` إِذا
      بَرَ�`د�'ته، وأَصبح الماء اليوم قَرِيساً
      وقارساً أَي جامداً؛
      وليست ذات قَر�'سٍ أَي بَر�'د.
      وقَرَسَ البَر�'دُ يَق�'رِس قَر�'ساً: اشتد�`،
      وفيه لغة أُخرى قَرِسَ قَرَساً

      والقَرِيس من الطعام: مشتق من القَرَس
      الجامِد، قال؛ وإِنما سمي القريس قريساً
      لأَنه يجمُد


      القَر�'سُ: البَر�'د الشديد،

      والبَر�'دُ قارِسٌ وقَرِي�'سٌ، ولا تَقُل
      قارِصٌ. وقَرَسَ الماءُ: أي جَمَدَ. ويومٌ
      قارِسٌ وليلَةٌ قارِسَةٌ. وأصبح الماءُ
      اليومَ قَرِي�'ساً وقارِساً: أي جامِداً

      وقَرِس الإنسانُ قَرَساً، إذا لم يستطع أن
      يعمل بيديه من شِد�`ة البَرد

      >
      >
      > or you can simply view the respective translation of these
      > definitions by clicling the following URL:
      >
      > http://www.theegyptianchronicles.com/LINKS/QRS.html
      >

      To make confusion complete you also have

      August Fick
      Wörterbuch der Indogermanischen Sprachen
      Dritter Teil: Wortschatz der Germanischen Spracheinheit
      'frus 1., freusan fraus fruzum fruzana frieren. g. in frius:
      an. frjôsa fraus frusum frørinn frieren machen;
      ags. fréosan st. vb. frieren, engl. freeze, mnd. vrêsen;
      ahd. freosan, mhd. vriesen st. vb. frieren.
      Ig. Wz. *prus- frieren und brennen.
      Vgl. lat. pruîna (aus prusvīnā), prûna (aus prusnā) glühende Kohle,
      prûrîre jucken, brennen. -
      skr. pruşvâ Reif, Eis, pruşţa gebrannt, pruşna m. die Sonne, ploşati
      versengt, brennt. (248:11)

      freusa, fruza n. Frost. g. frius n. Frost;
      an. frør, frer n. Frostwetter. (248:12)
      frusta m. n. Frost. an. frost n. Kälte, Frost;
      as. frost, afries. ags. forst m., engl. frost;
      ahd. frost, mhd. vrost m., nhd. Frost m. (248:13)'

      which means that both IE and Arabic had both of the roots *qrs- and *prs- "frost, ice", and the alternation q-/p- is equally irregular in both.

      BTW Arabic falastin(?) "Palestine" and firdaws "paradise" shows Arabic must have had a rule *p- -> f- once.

      cf.
      http://www.20000-names.com/paradise_names.htm
      'FIRDAUS (فردوس): Arabic name derived from the word firdaws, "paradise," from Persian pardis/pairidaeza, meaning "enclosure, garden." This is the Arabic name for the highest paradise in the hereafter.'

      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:
      >
      > *kreu- has a "family" of words that means blood, crust, clotted blood, scab, freeze, cold, ice, raw, corpse, raw meat. I think the original meaning is linked to "crust of clotted blood, scab", later scab > crust > hard substance > ice, or... clotted > raw > dead > cold > frozen 
      >

      And this
      http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=crud
      would then be a reflex of the un-Grimm-shifted NWBlock version of
      *qr-d- (vel sim.). The word 'crud' itself might, pace OED, be a survival in an American English dialect.

      On the IE/Arabic p-/q- alternation in this word, cf.
      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/48486



      Torsten
    • Torsten
      ... The whole semantic story, I think, should be extended thus: burn, singe burned (fire-hardened) crust frozen; ice frost Cf.
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 10, 2011
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "The Egyptian Chronicles"
        > <the_egyptian_chronicles@> wrote:
        > >
        > > In researching the topic of "crustacea " I came across the
        > > following dilemma:
        > >
        > > PIE has *krus-to- "that which has been hardened," from base
        > > *kreus- "to begin to freeze, form a crust". Until recently this
        > > was thought to be exclusively Indo-European. However, this notion
        > > can be discarded when compared with Classical Arabic (a non
        > > Indo-European language) which has the term "qrs" with the exact
        > > range of meanings.
        > >
        > > In general, a proto-language is not known directly and its
        > > reconstruction is only arrived at by comparing different members
        > > of the language family through the comparative method. Yet an
        > > obvious complication occurs when the range of the isogloss is
        > > spread across different language families. In this case, the
        > > inclusion of the Arabic "qrs" a non Indo-European language. In
        > > such a situation, the validity of the reconstruction of PIE is
        > > brought into question, especially in light of Arabic which has two
        > > additional synonyms such as "gld" for cold/snow and "frs" for
        > > frost, rendering a loaned word situation less of a probability
        > >
        > > If some might then suggest a Nostratic word, then this isogloss
        > > inclusiveness reinforces further the repelling of *kreus- as a
        > > valid PIE reconstruction.
        > >
        > >
        > > Below is the data outlining the problem:
        > >
        > >
        > > INDO-EUROPEAN
        > >
        > > Crustacea 1814, from Mod.L. neut. pl. of crustaceus (animalia),
        > > lit. "having a crust or shell," from L. crusta "crust, rind, bark,
        > > hard shell" (see crust). Taken as a zoological classification by
        > > Lamarck, 1801; Cuvier (1798) had les insectes crustacées.
        > >
        > > crust early 14c., "hard outer part of bread," from O.Fr. crouste
        > > (13c., Mod.Fr. croûte) and directly from L. crusta "rind, crust,
        > > shell, bark," from PIE *krus-to- "that which has been hardened,"
        > > from base *kreus- "to begin to freeze, form a crust" (cf. Skt.
        > > krud- "make hard, thicken;" Avestan xruzdra- "hard;" Gk.
        > > krystallos "ice, crystal," kryos "icy cold, frost;" Lett. kruwesis
        > > "frozen mud;" O.H.G. hrosa "ice, crust;" O.E. hruse "earth;" O.N.
        > > hroðr "scurf").
        > > Meaning "outer shell of the earth" is from 1550s. As a verb, from
        > > late 14c. Related: Crusted; crusting.
        > >
        > >
        > > CLASSICAL ARABIC "QRS" (from Lisan al-Arab)
        > >
        > >(لسان العرب)
        > >القَر�'سُ والقِر�'سُ: أَب�'رَدُ الصَ�`قيع
        > >وأَكثره وأَشدُ�` البَر�'دِ
        >
        > >وقَرَسَ الماءَ يَق�'رِسُ قَر�'ساً، فهو
        > >قَرِيسٌ: جَمَدَ.
        > >وقَرَ�`س�'ناه وأَق�'رَس�'ناه: بَرَ�`د�'ناه.
        > >ويقال: قَرَ�`س�'ت الماء في الشَ�`نِ�` إِذا
        > >بَرَ�`د�'ته، وأَصبح الماء اليوم قَرِيساً
        > >وقارساً أَي جامداً؛
        > >وليست ذات قَر�'سٍ أَي بَر�'د.
        > >وقَرَسَ البَر�'دُ يَق�'رِس قَر�'ساً: اشتد�`،
        > >وفيه لغة أُخرى قَرِسَ قَرَساً
        >
        > >والقَرِيس من الطعام: مشتق من القَرَس
        > >الجامِد، قال؛ وإِنما سمي القريس قريساً
        > >لأَنه يجمُد
        >
        >
        > >القَر�'سُ: البَر�'د الشديد،
        >
        > >والبَر�'دُ قارِسٌ وقَرِي�'سٌ، ولا تَقُل
        > >قارِصٌ. وقَرَسَ الماءُ: أي جَمَدَ. ويومٌ
        > >قارِسٌ وليلَةٌ قارِسَةٌ. وأصبح الماءُ
        > >اليومَ قَرِي�'ساً وقارِساً: أي جامِداً
        >
        > >وقَرِس الإنسانُ قَرَساً، إذا لم يستطع أن
        > >يعمل بيديه من شِد�`ة البَرد
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > or you can simply view the respective translation of these
        > > definitions by clicling the following URL:
        > >
        > > http://www.theegyptianchronicles.com/LINKS/QRS.html
        > >
        >
        > To make confusion complete you also have
        >
        > August Fick
        > Wörterbuch der Indogermanischen Sprachen
        > Dritter Teil: Wortschatz der Germanischen Spracheinheit
        > 'frus 1., freusan fraus fruzum fruzana frieren. g. in frius:
        > an. frjôsa fraus frusum frørinn frieren machen;
        > ags. fréosan st. vb. frieren, engl. freeze, mnd. vrêsen;
        > ahd. freosan, mhd. vriesen st. vb. frieren.
        > Ig. Wz. *prus- frieren und brennen.
        > Vgl. lat. pruîna (aus prusvīnā), prûna (aus prusnā) glühende Kohle,
        > prûrîre jucken, brennen. -
        > skr. pruşvâ Reif, Eis, pruşţa gebrannt, pruşna m. die Sonne, ploşati
        > versengt, brennt. (248:11)
        >
        > freusa, fruza n. Frost. g. frius n. Frost;
        > an. frør, frer n. Frostwetter. (248:12)
        > frusta m. n. Frost. an. frost n. Kälte, Frost;
        > as. frost, afries. ags. forst m., engl. frost;
        > ahd. frost, mhd. vrost m., nhd. Frost m. (248:13)'
        >
        > which means that both IE and Arabic had both of the roots *qrs- and
        > *prs- "frost, ice", and the alternation q-/p- is equally irregular
        > in both.
        >
        > BTW Arabic falastin(?) "Palestine" and firdaws "paradise" shows
        > Arabic must have had a rule *p- -> f- once.
        >
        > cf.
        > http://www.20000-names.com/paradise_names.htm
        > 'FIRDAUS (فردوس): Arabic name derived from the word firdaws,
        > "paradise," from Persian pardis/pairidaeza, meaning "enclosure,
        > garden." This is the Arabic name for the highest paradise in the
        > hereafter.'
        >
        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@> wrote:
        > >
        > > *kreu- has a "family" of words that means blood, crust, clotted
        > > blood, scab, freeze, cold, ice, raw, corpse, raw meat. I think the
        > original meaning is linked to "crust of clotted blood, scab", later
        > scab > crust > hard substance > ice, or... clotted > raw > dead >
        > cold > frozen 
        > >

        The whole semantic story, I think, should be extended thus:
        "burn, singe" > "burned (fire-hardened) crust" > "frozen; ice" > "frost"

        Cf.
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62531
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62536

        and UEW:
        'kura 'Reif, feiner Schnee' U
        Finn. kuura 'Reif'; [hoarfrost]
        olon. (SKES) kuuru 'huurre; Reif';
        ? est. (dial.) kuurukene (Gen. kuurukeeé), (veralt.) kuureg 'kleiner, über den Weg gewehter Schneestreifen' |
        lapp. L kårralahka 'Eisrinde, Eiskruste an den Bäumen, Glatteis', kå:rrō- 'es bildet sich Rauhreif an den Bäumen' |
        wotj. S ger 'Reif; Eisblumen (am Fenster); Reis od. Eiszapfen (z. B. am Bart)' |
        syrj. S gier 'Reif' (an Bäumen, am Bart, an der Fensterscheibe, an der Wand)" (> ostj. O kijar 'Reif im Bart, an Kleidern, am Boden usw.', wog. Sy. kiγərtt- 'покрывать нисем, снегом, льдом') |
        ? ung. harmat 'Tau', (veralt.) hóharmat 'Reif' ||
        sam.
        selk. (Donn. Mskr.) KeO kurə 'feiner Schnee, Reif';
        kam. kuro 'Reif, Frost'.

        Vgl. alt.:
        türk. qїraγu 'hoar-frost',
        jak. kїraha 'мелкий снег' > tung. kiraha- 'падать (о мелком снеге)',
        mong. kīraγu 'hoar-frost' > tung. kerou id.

        Semantisch ist es fraglich, ob das est. Wort hierher gehört.

        Wotj. e und syrj. ie (<*ò) sind unregelmäßige Entsprechungen von finn. uu usw.

        Es ist unsicher, ob das ung. Wort hierher gehört, weil die morphologische Rolle des inlautenden m problematisch ist. Es ist möglich, daß das m ein denom. Verbalsuffix ist. Ein solches Ableitungssuffix ist in den verwandten Sprachen gut belegt, im Ung. hat man es aber bisher nicht nachgewiesen. Vgl. jedoch ung. dér 'Reif' ~ dermed 'erstarren'. Das auslautende at ist ein deverb. Substantivsuffix.

        Das irrtümlich mit den perm. Wörtern verknüpfte ostj. (OL 211) V kir 'Schneekruste' (Joki: Vir. 1950: 159, 213 mit ?) s. *kere 'Rinde' FU.
        Ung. (dial.) géráz- 'gyengén fagy; mit leichtem Frost frieren' (Joki: Vir. 1950: 159, 213 mit ?) gehört aus lautlichen Gründen nicht hierher.

        Lindström: Suomi 1852: 50; Wichmann: FUF 11:211; Setälä: FUFA 12: 34, JSFOu. 30/5: 39; Sauvageot, Rech. 83; Németh: NyK 47: 472; SzófSz. (unter dér); Räsänen: Vir. 1947: 169; Joki: Vir. 1950: 158, 213; Toivonen: FUF 32: 24; SKES; Rédei, SLW 102, NyK 87 (im Druck); ESK.'

        and

        'korta- 'sengen [singe], brennen' FW, ?U
        Finn. (SKES dial.) korttaa-
        'korventaa (teurastetun sian karvoja...), paahtaa (aurinko), pyytää, vaatia, haalia jne.;
        sengen (die Haare des geschlachteten Schweines), brennen (Sonne); bitten, fordern, sammeln, (zusammen)raffen usw.' |
        lapp.
        N goar'de- rd-
        1. 'warm (up) a great deal, heat (of sun or fire)',
        2. 'warm; roast; cook a little',
        3. 'beg imperiously for, demand, insist upon having',
        L kÃ¥r'tÄ"- 'brennen (= sehr heiß scheinen), Glut strahlen, (ver)sengen, abbrennen (von der Sonne, vom Feuer)'
        (> finn. SKES dial. kortaa- 'korventaa; sengen, versengen') |
        mord. E kurta-, kirta-, M *kə^rta- 'sengen, versengen' |
        tscher.
        B korδe- 'beräuchern (der Opferpriester vor dem Beginn des Gebets);
        (Szil.) (beim Opfern den Tisch mit einem brennenden Kienspan) umkreisen (ohne selbst herumzugehen)' ||
        ?sam.
        selk. NP kuurra, OO kuura- 'sengen (Holz)'.'

        and
        'kora- (kura-) 'schinden[skin v.], abschälen[peel]' U
        Ostj. (OL 110) V kŏr-, DN O χŏr- 'schinden' |
        wog. (Kann., mitg. Liim.: FUF 29: 169â€"70) TJ kor-, KU χor-, LU koar-, koār- '(Birkenrinde, Bast) abziehen, schälen (TJ KU LU), schinden, abhäuten (KU)', P koorət- 'schlagen, durchkeilen' ||
        sam.
        jur. (186) O χirā- 'abhäuten';
        selk. Ta. kîra-, Ke. kĕra- 'schinden', (Donn. Mskr.) Ty. kera- 'kuoria; schälen, abrinden';
        kam. kərə-, kə^r- 'schinden, abziehen, abhäuten, (ein Schaf) scheren',
        koib. (Janh, SW 69) кырле;
        mot. (a.a.O.) кырылнаамъ.

        Die von mehreren Forschern zusammengestellten Wörter
        finn. karvi- 'skrapa, skava; schaben, kratzen',
        wog. kurjal- 'abschaben' usw.
        gehören aus semantischen Gründen nicht hierher, s. unter
        *korз- (*korwa-) 'schaben, kratzen...' FU.
        S. auch unter *kurз 'Zorn; zürnen' FU.
        Munkácsi: NyK 25:276; Patk.: 28; Lehtisalo: MSFOu. 56:80; Lakó: MNy. 39: 349; Liimola: FUF 29: 169; FUV; Janhunen, SW 69.'


        'kore (kōre) 'Schale, Rinde' FW, ? FU
        Finn. kuori (Gen. kuoren) 'Rinde, Schale, Kruste, Sahne';
        est. koor (Gen. koore) 'Schale (von Eiern, Früchten usw.), Rinde' |
        mord. E M kaŕ 'Bastschuh' |
        ? syrj. S kirś 'Baumrinde (bes. an Nabelbäumen), die dicke Rinde unter der Birkenrinde |
        ? ostj.
        1. (PD 422) Ko. χărə 'grüne Birkenschale', (331) Kaz. χărĭ 'rötliche Schicht od. Haut auf der Innenseite der Birkenrinde', ?
        [2. (336)
        DN χurəp '(Brot)Rinde; Schorf; Grind; Splitter am Eisen, an einem Schneidwerkzeug',
        Kaz. χŭrəp 'Rinde (des Brotes, der Pirogge); dickes, schlechtes Stück Leder; dicke Scheibe Zirbelkieferrinde' |
        wog. (BW) K χorp, N χurup 'корка'].

        Vgl.
        juk. kar, χar 'Haut, Fell';
        alt.:
        ma.-tung. k´ora-kta 'кopa' < k'ora- ~ k´ura 'покрыт (кoрoй)'.

        Das mord. Wort bezeichnet nicht das Material, sondern den daraus hergestellten Gegenstand ('Bastschuh').

        Syrj. kirś kann nur dann hierher gehören, wenn ś ein Ableitungssuffix ist. Der Vokal des syrj. Wortes paßt nicht zum *o (*ō), das auf Grund des Finn. und Mord. angenommen werden kann.

        Die ostj. interdialektale Vokalentsprechung (urostj. *ă, *ŭ, *ŏ) ist unregelmäßig. Das hängt vielleicht mit dem onomat. Charakter des Wortes zusammen. Möglich ist auch, daß ostj. χărə und χurəp etymologisch verschiedene Wörter sind.

        Onomat.

        Das irrtümlich mit dem finn. Wort verknüpfte
        finn. kärnä 'harte Baumrinde' (VglWb. 146)
        s. unter *kärnä 'Rinde, Kruste' FU.

        Finn. kaarnu 'Borke, Kiefernrinde' (VglWb. 146) ist vielleicht ein lit. Lehnwort (s. SKES).

        Über
        ostj. (OL 110) V kŏr- 'schinden',
        wog. (Kann., mitg. von Liim.: FUF 29: 169) TJ kor- 'abziehen, schälen',
        sam.
        jur. (186) χirā- 'abhäuten',
        selk. Ta. kîra- 'schinden' und
        kam. kərə- (Castrén, Versuch 84: Anderson, Stud. 148; MUSz. 89, SKES mit?)
        s. unter
        *kora- (*kura-) 'schinden, abschälen' U.

        Über das irrtümlich hierhergestellte
        ung. kéreg 'Rinde, Borke' und Familie
        (Gyarm., Aff. 269, 376;
        Strahlmann: 243;
        Lindström: Suomi 1852: 48;
        Blomstedt,HB 87;
        Fabian: MNyszet 1: 93, 6: 110;
        Castrén, Versuch 80;
        Hunfalvy: MNyszet 4: 214;
        VglWb. 170, Ahlqvгst, NOstjSpr. 86)
        s. unter
        *kere 'Rinde' FU

        und über
        ung. hárs 'Linde, Lindenbaum'
        (MUSz. 89;
        Anderson, Stud. 148;
        Paasonen, MordChr. 73, FUF 7: 20;
        Räsänen: StudOr. 15:70 mit ?;
        SKES mit ?)
        s. unter *koñćkз ~ *koćkз 'Bast, Baumrinde' FU, ? U.

        Lindström: Suomi 1852: 48;
        MUSz. 89;
        Genetz: VähKirj. 30: 9, Suomi 1899/3/16: 9;
        Wіklund: MSFOu. 10:221;
        Paasonen, MordChr. 73, FUF 7:20;
        H. Sköld: FUF 18 221;
        Zsirai: MNy. 24: 298;
        Räsänen: Vir. 1947: 168, StudOr. 15: 24, 70;
        SKES;
        ESK;
        Steinitz, DEWO 547, 557.'

        and

        'kerte (kirte) 'dünne Schnee-, Eiskruste' FU
        ? [? 1. Finn. kerte (Gen. kertteen) 'tunn skorpa på snön; dünne Kruste auf dem Schnee',
        ? 2. kirsi (Gen. kirren) 'Frost in der Erde, Eisrinde' (> lapp. N gir'si ~rs~, L kir'sa 'id., gefrorene Bodenschicht', Coll.: MSFOu. 74: 73 Gäl. karasa, karasa 'Frost in der Erde');
        est. kirs (Gen. kirre, kirse) 'Eisschicht'] |
        ? ostj. (435) Trj. kártəγ : pŏj k., DN kàrtəm 'dünne Eiskruste auf dem Schnee (Trj. DN), dünne Schneekruste (DN)' (pŏj 'Harsch').

        Ostj. γ und m sind Ableitungssuffixe.

        Es ist unsicher, ob die alternativ mit dem ostj. Wort verglichenen finn. Wörter kerte bzw. kirsi zusammengehören. Die unterschiedliche Vokalvertretung ist möglicherweise durch den onomatopoetischen Charakter begründet.

        Das im Ostj. anzunehmende urostj. *ä entspricht regelmäßig dem finn. e. Die Zusammenstellung des ostj. Wortes mit finn. kirsi ist nur auf Grund eines urostj. Wechsels *ä ~ *i möglich.

        Onomat.

        Tscher. (Ramst.) KB kert 'Eisrinde auf dem Schnee' (Toivonen: Vir. 1918: 78 mit ?; Äimä: MSFOu. 45: 211 mit ?, FUV mit ?; Collinder, CompGr. 124) gehört nicht hierher, weil es ein tat. Lehnwort ist.

        Tscher. (Ramst.) karšaka 'Schmutz und Eisscherben auf dem Wege' (Äimä: MSFOu. 45: 241 Anm. mit ?) kann aus lautlichen und semantischen Gründen nicht hierher gestellt werden.

        Ostj. (434) Kr. kĕrt- 'gerinnen, steif werden (z. B. vom Sitzen)',
        Kaz. kăr лə- '„absterben", steif od. gefühllos werden (z. B. Bein, Arm...), erstarren (ein Toter)...' und
        wog. (Kann. Mskr.)
        KU kärt 'Klumpen geronnenen Blutes', (WV 132)
        TJ kä:rtəwj-, So. kārt- 'erstarren' (Mark: Vir. 1928: 188)
        gehören nicht hierher, weil das Substantiv in beiden Sprachen (s. ostj. (433) DN kĕrt 'Klumpen geronnenen Blutes') syrjänisches Lehnwort ist und die beiden Verben (ostj. kĕrt-, wog. kä:rtəwj-, kārt-) Neubildungen zu den Substantiven sind.

        Genetz: Suomi 1897/3/13:43;
        Äimä: MSFOu. 45:37, 60, 211;
        Toivonen: Vir. 1918: 78;
        Räsänen: MSFOu. 48: 100 Anm., 50: 44;
        Mark: Vir. 1928: 187;
        Kalima: FUF 20: 134;
        Collinder: MSFOu. 74: 73;
        Joki: Vir. 1950: 159, MSFOu. 103: 202;
        FUV;
        SKES;
        Rédei, SLW 111.'

        and

        'kere2 'Rinde' FU
        Finn. keri 'skrov; näver som växer på björk after det förstas avtagende; die Rinde, die an der Birke wächst, wenn man die erste Rinde abgeschält hat';
        est. kere (gen. kere) 'Bast' |
        lapp. N gârrâ shell, crust', L karra, K (263) T karr, Kld. Not. kвrr |
        mord. E keŕ, käŕ, M keŕ, kär 'Lindenrinde' |
        tscher. (Ramst.) KB kər id., B kür 'Lindenbast' |
        wotj. S kur, Uf. kir 'Stück Baumrinde' |
        syrj. P kor 'Innenrinde, Borke, Baumrinde', SO kor 'кора' |
        ostj. (OL. 211, 1) V Kr. kir, O ker 'Schneekruste', V kär, DN O kår 'Rinde, Schale, Schorf' |
        wog. (Kann.â€"Liim.: MSFOu. 101: 381) T KU So. kÄ"r 'Rinde, Schale' |
        ung. kérÑ`g (Akk. kérget) 'Rinde, Borke; Kruste', (altung.) agykér 'Hirnhäutlein' (agy 'Hirn'), (altung.) haskér 'Eingeweidefell' (has 'Bauch'), (altung.) kér (fig.) 'Zwerchfell'.

        Vgl.
        juk. χar 'hide, skin'.

        Ung. g ist ein Ableitungssuffix.

        Von den ostj. Varianten ist kir 'Schneekruste' die ursprünglichere. V kär 'Rinde...' kann mit dem urostj. Wechsel *ä ~ *i erklärt werden. Das Wort, das ursprünglich 'Rinde' bedeutet hatte, nahm wohl durch Begriffsübertragung die Bedeutung 'Schneekruste' an.

        Das mit ? zum ostj. Wort gestellte
        wotj. ger, syrj. gier 'Reif' (Joki: Vir. 1950: 158â€"161)
        kann wegen der Vokale nicht hierher gehören.

        Jur. (186) O χirā- 'abhäuten' und
        selk. kera- 'schinden, die Haut abziehen'
        (Setälä: JSFOu. 30/5:44;
        Sauvageot, Rech. 84;
        Jensen: Hirt-Festschr. 2: 176;
        Collinder, JukUr. 80)
        können wegen der anlautenden Konsonanten und der ursprünglichen Velarität nicht hierher gestellt werden.

        Gyarm, Aff. 269, 369, 375, 376;
        Lindström: Suomi 1852: 48;
        MUSz. 18;
        VglWb. 170;
        Anderson, Stud. 144;
        Vasverö: NyK 23: 341;
        NyH7;
        Sauvageot, Rech. 84;
        Németh: NyK 47: 472;
        Collinder, IUrSprg. 60, JukUr. 80, CompGr. 48;
        Jensen: Hirt-Festschr. 2, 176; SzófSz.;
        Liimola: FUF 29: 170;
        Steinitz, OstjVok. 60, 99, Forschen und Wirken 3: 348;
        FUV;
        SKES;
        MSzFgrE;
        TESz.'

        and

        'kärnä 'Rinde, Kruste' FU
        Finn. kärnä 'harte Baumrinde' (> wot. kärnä);
        wot. (Set.: FUF 4: 152) čärnä 'Krätze, Schorf';
        est. kärn (Gen. kärnä) 'Krätze, Räude, Grind, Schorf |
        lapp.
        N gær'dne-rdn- 'thin crust on snow; a scab-like disease attacking the udder of the female reindeer',
        L kier'nÑ` ~ kär'nÑ` 'id.; grobkörniger Schnee', (T. I. Itk., WbKKLp. 121)
        T kier,:n,e, Kld. kier,:n.e, Ko. Not. k'ĭĕr:,n,e 'Eiskruste auf Schnee, der sonst weich ist'
        (> finn. dial. kerni 'lumen kuori; rohtuma; Schneekruste; Ausschlag, Ekzem') |
        mord. (Paas.: MSFOu. 22: 54) E M kšńat, kšńit, *kšńəť 'Masern' |
        ostj. (PD 664)
        J kårńåγлə-, Ko. kårńə- 'steif werden, erstarren',
        (432) O kărńi 'Eiskruste, im Herbst mit der Strömung schwimmende Eisscholle'.

        Mord. t ist entweder ein Ableitungssuffix oder Pluralzeichen.
        Ostj. åγлə ist ein denom. Ableitungssuffix.
        Im Mord. und Ostj. fand ein Wandel *n > ń unter dem Einfluß der palatalen Konsonantenumgebung statt.

        Zur Bedeutung des lapp. Wortes 'scab-like disease...' sowie zur Bedeutung des mord. Wortes vgl.
        finn. karppa 'frusen snökorpa; gefrorene Schneekruste' ~
        est. karp 'Schorf, Krätze'.

        Die Konsonatenverbindung des mord. Wortes kšń ist aus *krn <*k8¨rn entstanden, vgl. mord. kšńi, kšńä, kšńe 'Eisen' ~ tscher. kərtńi, kürtńö id.

        Onomat?

        Die zum finn. Wort gestellten
        finn. kerte (Gen. kertteen) 'tunn skorpa på snön; dünne Kruste auf dem Schnee' und
        kersti 'snö- 1. isskorpa; Schnee- od. Eiskruste' (Äimā: MSFOu. 45: 37, 211)
        gehören wegen der inlautenden Konsonantenverbindung rtt, rst nicht hierher. Zu finn. kuori 'Rinde, Schale, Kruste, Sahne' (VglWb. 146) s. *kore (*kōre) 'Schale, Rinde' FW, ? FU.

        Zu dem irrtümlich hierher gestellten
        ung. kéreg 'Rinde, Borke' und seiner Familie (MUSz. 18; VglWb. 146) s.
        *kere 'Rinde' FU.

        Möglicherweise sind
        finn.
        kaarna 'Borke, Kiefernrinde' und
        karna 'stelnad smuts på ytan av ngt; auf der Oberfläche festgestellter Schmutz' (MUSz. 18; VglWb. 146; T. I. Itkonen: JSFOu. 32/3: 9)
        baltische Lehnwörter.

        VglWb. 146;
        Anderson, Stud. 153, 257;
        Wiklund: MSFOu. 10: 180;
        Setälä: FUF 1, 152;
        T. I. Itkonen: JSFOu. 32/3: 9; PD 664;
        Toivonen: Vir. 1928: 183;
        SKES.'

        and

        'kirз 'steif, hart; steif, hart werden' FW
        Finn. kireä 'gespannt; stramm, straff; steif, starr; hart'
        (> lapp. N girrâd 'heavy'),
        kiristä- 'spannen, straff od. straffer ziehen, fester zubinden';
        est. kirista- 'drücken' |
        lapp.
        N gârâs -rr- 'hard; strong, stiff',
        L karras, (attr.) karra 'stark (von Getränken, vom Wind), hart (von Wind, Schnee, Harschschnee, Wetter, Brot)',
        N gârrâ- -r- 'become hard(er); become severe (more severe)',
        L karra- 'hart werden, verhärten (intr. von Brot, Leder usw.)',
        K (264) Kld. (absol.) koras, (attr.) kÓ©rr, A kÓ©r 'hart, streng' |
        mord. E M kiŕe- 'sich zusammenziehen, einschrumpfen'.

        Finn. eä ist ein Ableitungssuffix.

        Im Mord. dürfte ein Bedeutungswandel 'steif, hart werden' -> 'sich zusammenziehen, einschrumpfen' eingetreten sein.

        Nomen-Verbum.

        Syrj. (Wied.) kirišt- 'quetschen, wund drücken' (SKES mit ?) kann wegen des i der ersten Silbe nicht hierher gestellt werden. Es ist möglicherweise eine Ableitung von kir- 'umgraben'.

        Ostj. (PD 74) Ko. kărət- 'steif werden',
        (434) Kaz. karл- '„absterben", steif od. gefühllos werden' (SKES mit ?) sind Neubildungen aus dem syrj. Lehnwort
        (433) DN kĕrt 'Klumpen geronnenen Blutes',
        (434) Kr. kĕrt- 'gerinnen, steif werden'
        (s. dazu Toivonen: FUF 32:34).

        Wiklund: MSFOu. 10:127;
        Paasonen, MordChr. 78;
        Steinitz, FgrVok. 61;
        SKES;
        E. Itkonen, LpChr. 109.'


        > And this
        > http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=crud
        > would then be a reflex of the un-Grimm-shifted NWBlock version of
        > *qr-d- (vel sim.). The word 'crud' itself might, pace OED, be a
        > survival in an American English dialect.
        >
        > On the IE/Arabic p-/q- alternation in this word, cf.
        > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/48486

        And, once again, a mysterious Arab/IE (northern)/Uralic complex


        Torsten
      • Brian M. Scott
        At 1:47:52 AM on Wednesday, November 9, 2011, Torsten wrote: [...] ... PSem. *p Ar. f. Brian
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 10, 2011
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          At 1:47:52 AM on Wednesday, November 9, 2011, Torsten wrote:

          [...]

          > BTW Arabic falastin(?) "Palestine" and firdaws "paradise"
          > shows Arabic must have had a rule *p- -> f- once.

          PSem. *p > Ar. f.

          Brian
        • Torsten
          ... Do you have that in print somewhere? And dating? I knew it must have been there, just haven t seen it written down in so many words. Torsten
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 10, 2011
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            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <bm.brian@...> wrote:
            >
            > At 1:47:52 AM on Wednesday, November 9, 2011, Torsten wrote:
            >
            > [...]
            >
            > > BTW Arabic falastin(?) "Palestine" and firdaws "paradise"
            > > shows Arabic must have had a rule *p- -> f- once.
            >
            > PSem. *p > Ar. f.

            Do you have that in print somewhere? And dating?
            I knew it must have been there, just haven't seen it written down in so many words.


            Torsten
          • Brian M. Scott
            At 10:58:36 AM on Thursday, November 10, 2011, Torsten ... It s in the article on Arabic in _The World s Major Languages_, ed. Comrie. I know that I ve seen
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 10, 2011
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              At 10:58:36 AM on Thursday, November 10, 2011, Torsten
              wrote:

              > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott"
              > <bm.brian@...> wrote:

              >> At 1:47:52 AM on Wednesday, November 9, 2011, Torsten
              >> wrote:

              >> [...]

              >>> BTW Arabic falastin(?) "Palestine" and firdaws
              >>> "paradise" shows Arabic must have had a rule *p- -> f-
              >>> once.

              >> PSem. *p > Ar. f.

              > Do you have that in print somewhere?

              It's in the article on Arabic in _The World's Major
              Languages_, ed. Comrie. I know that I've seen it in other
              places as well, but I don't immediately recall where.

              > And dating?

              Don't know.

              Brian
            • Torsten
              ... Thanks. http://www.atamanhotel.com/cheese.html It is tempting to try find a connection between the keş http://nisanyansozluk.com/?k=ke%C5%9F and kaşar
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 10, 2011
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                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <bm.brian@...> wrote:
                >
                > At 10:58:36 AM on Thursday, November 10, 2011, Torsten
                > wrote:
                >
                > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott"
                > > <bm.brian@> wrote:
                >
                > >> At 1:47:52 AM on Wednesday, November 9, 2011, Torsten
                > >> wrote:
                >
                > >> [...]
                >
                > >>> BTW Arabic falastin(?) "Palestine" and firdaws
                > >>> "paradise" shows Arabic must have had a rule *p- -> f-
                > >>> once.
                >
                > >> PSem. *p > Ar. f.
                >
                > > Do you have that in print somewhere?
                >
                > It's in the article on Arabic in _The World's Major
                > Languages_, ed. Comrie. I know that I've seen it in other
                > places as well, but I don't immediately recall where.
                >
                > > And dating?
                >
                > Don't know.


                Thanks.

                http://www.atamanhotel.com/cheese.html

                It is tempting to try find a connection between the keş
                http://nisanyansozluk.com/?k=ke%C5%9F
                and kaşar
                http://nisanyansozluk.com/?k=ka%C5%9Far
                cheeses and Latin caseus, supposedly the source of
                West Germanic cheese, Käse, kaas etc.


                Torsten
              • t0lgsoo1
                ... and __kaşkaval__ (also some kind of __peynir__ cheese ). (Also in Romanian: _caş_ [kaS] and _caşcaval_; the latter usu. rather the hard types, such as
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 10, 2011
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                  >It is tempting to try find a connection between the keş
                  >http://nisanyansozluk.com/?k=ke%C5%9F
                  >and kaşar
                  >http://nisanyansozluk.com/?k=ka%C5%9Far
                  >cheeses and Latin caseus, supposedly the source of
                  >West Germanic cheese, Käse, kaas etc.

                  and __kaşkaval__ (also some kind of __peynir__ "cheese").

                  (Also in Romanian: _caş_ [kaS] and _caşcaval_; the latter usu. rather
                  the hard types, such as Emmentaler, Gouda, Pecorino, Parmesan & the
                  like. Whereas for types like Quark/Topfen, Hüttenkäse, Schichtkäse,
                  Feta, formaggio, fromage another term is used: __brânzä__
                  ['brɨnzə; 'brɯnzə] (older Romanian _brândzä_); cf. Slovak
                  _bryn(d)za_, esp. in the Liptov/Liptau/Liptó area, and German
                  derivation __Brimsen__. Romanian __urdä__ is another, the 3rd,
                  specialty.)

                  Italian __cacio__:

                  http://www.etimo.it/?term=cacio&find=Cerca
                  (cf. Sp. queso, queijo. Cf. Sl. kvas.)

                  Saying: _"venire, cascare come il cacio sui maccheroni"_.

                  ###

                  Curds, yogurts, kefir & various kinds of cheese & dairy products
                  - typical of seminomad cultures with PIE (chiefly Iranic) substrate.
                  (cf. the map re. hypolactasia (lactose intolerance))

                  George
                • Rick McCallister
                  From: Torsten To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 12:37 PM Subject: [tied] Re: PIE *kreus-   ...  
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 10, 2011
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                    From: Torsten <tgpedersen@...>
                    To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 12:37 PM
                    Subject: [tied] Re: PIE *kreus-

                     

                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <bm.brian@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > At 10:58:36 AM on Thursday, November 10, 2011, Torsten
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott"
                    > > <bm.brian@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >> At 1:47:52 AM on Wednesday, November 9, 2011, Torsten
                    > >> wrote:
                    >
                    > >> [...]
                    >
                    > >>> BTW Arabic falastin(?) "Palestine" and firdaws
                    > >>> "paradise" shows Arabic must have had a rule *p- -> f-
                    > >>> once.
                     
                    Neither of these words is originally Arabic --I think
                    falastin (with emphatic t) is via either Aramaic, Greek or Latin
                    and Firdaws is Persian, I believe
                    BUT Comrie's book does mention that pre-Arabic /p/ > /f/
                    >
                    > >> PSem. *p > Ar. f.
                    >
                    > > Do you have that in print somewhere?
                    >
                    > It's in the article on Arabic in _The World's Major
                    > Languages_, ed. Comrie. I know that I've seen it in other
                    > places as well, but I don't immediately recall where.
                    >
                    > > And dating?
                    >
                    > Don't know.

                    Thanks.

                    http://www.atamanhotel.com/cheese.html

                    It is tempting to try find a connection between the keÅŸ
                    http://nisanyansozluk.com/?k=ke%C5%9F
                    and kaÅŸar
                    http://nisanyansozluk.com/?k=ka%C5%9Far
                    cheeses and Latin caseus, supposedly the source of
                    West Germanic cheese, Käse, kaas etc.

                    Torsten



                  • stlatos
                    ... This looks too simplified to me. The comparison of OHG hroso with OE hrúse shows * kruwuso+ * kruwuso+ / kruso+; Lith. kruvesis suggests * kruwesiyo+
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 10, 2011
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                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "The Egyptian Chronicles" <the_egyptian_chronicles@...> wrote:


                      > PIE has *krus-to- "that which has been hardened," from base *kreus- "to begin to freeze, form a crust". Until recently this was thought to be exclusively Indo-European. However, this notion can be discarded when compared with Classical Arabic (a non Indo-European language) which has the term "qrs" with the exact range of meanings.
                      >


                      This looks too simplified to me. The comparison of OHG hroso with OE hrúse shows * kruwuso+ > * kruwuso+ / kruso+; Lith. kruvesis suggests * kruwesiyo+ < * krewisuyo+ < * krew-x-suwo+ (w dis. w-w > w-y). A common * krew-x-suwo+ / kruw-x-suwo+ (according to the rules I've given) would be possible, making the Gmc. * kruw-x-suwo+ > * kruwusuwo+ > * kruwuso+ (w hap. uw-uw>0). This connects them to * kr.ew-x+ (for 'scab, blood, etc.'). Their common source is IE, not as far back as PIE (which is more complex, giving rise to many more types rec. w -st-, -zd-, etc.).


                      Proto-Semitic is more complicated than standard rec. shows. It's likely related to North Caucasian * ak'-Xwank'-Xa-q'u > * qW':ank'at.'u / qW':anrat.'u / etc. = harden (Ax. qW':ãk'eda- / q':areda- ; etc.).
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