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Re: [tied] Re: masters and slaves again

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  • Rick McCallister
    ________________________________ From: george knysh To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 11:37:06 PM Subject: Re: [tied]
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 30 9:13 PM
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      From: george knysh <gknysh@...>
      To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 11:37:06 PM
      Subject: Re: [tied] Re: masters and slaves again

       


      --- On Fri, 7/1/11, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:

      marg- is "death" in Persian/Farsi as in Marg-ba Amrika,or whoever they have the hate on. So it looks Iranian enough but battle cries can be borrowed

      ****GK: Any explanation for the "hyperization" -h i.o. -g? OK in Iranic dialects or might this tell us something about that of the "Ticenses"?****

      Slavic does a pretty good job of alternating between /g/ and /h/ e.g. Russian govno vs. Ukrainian hivno (vel sim).

      Germanic has /g/ where Italic has /h/

      Another answer could be the language of the person who wrote it down, it may have influenced what was written

    • Torsten
      ... A third answer would postulate, noting that the Slavic g h seems to be an area thing: Czech, Slovak, Belarussian, Ukranian, southern Russian AFAIK, that
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 1, 2011
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:
        > From: george knysh <gknysh@...>

        > --- On Fri, 7/1/11, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:
        >
        > marg- is "death" in Persian/Farsi as in Marg-ba Amrika,or whoever
        > they have the hate on. So it looks Iranian enough but battle cries
        > can be borrowed
        >
        > ****GK: Any explanation for the "hyperization" -h i.o. -g? OK in
        > Iranic dialects or might this tell us something about that of
        > the "Ticenses"?****
        > Slavic does a pretty good job of alternating between /g/ and /h/
        > e.g. Russian
        > govno vs. Ukrainian hivno (vel sim).
        > Germanic has /g/ where Italic has /h/
        > Another answer could be the language of the person who wrote it
        > down, it may have influenced what was written


        A third answer would postulate, noting that the Slavic g > h seems to be an area thing: Czech, Slovak, Belarussian, Ukranian, southern Russian AFAIK, that the Iranian languages of the same area experienced the same transition? Fourth: the war cry 'marga!' was borrowed by Slavic and -> 'marha!', along with the rest of the vocabulary in the relevant Slavic languages (before being replaced by 'ura!' (<- Turkish?).


        Torsten



        Torsten
      • george knysh
        ... A third answer would postulate, noting that the Slavic g h seems to be an area thing: Czech, Slovak, Belarussian, Ukranian, southern Russian
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 1, 2011
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          --- On Fri, 7/1/11, Torsten <tgpedersen@...> wrote:



          > --- On Fri, 7/1/11, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:
          >
          > marg- is "death" in Persian/Farsi as in Marg-ba Amrika,or whoever
          > they have the hate on. So it looks Iranian enough but battle cries
          > can be borrowed
          >
          > GK: Any explanation for the "hyperization" -h i.o. -g? OK in
          > Iranic dialects or might this tell us something about that of
          > the "Ticenses"?
          > Slavic does a pretty good job of alternating between /g/ and /h/
          > e.g. Russian
          > govno vs. Ukrainian hivno (vel sim).
          > Germanic has /g/ where Italic has /h/
          > Another answer could be the language of the person who wrote it
          > down, it may have influenced what was written

          A third answer would postulate, noting that the Slavic g > h seems to be an area thing: Czech, Slovak, Belarussian, Ukranian, southern Russian AFAIK,

          ****GK: Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this areal "softening" of the G->H a development of the late 1rst millennium/early 2nd millennium CE? In other words, Old (undifferentiated) Slavic retained the hard G?****


          that the Iranian languages of the same area experienced the same transition?

          ****GK: But if the above is correct, then is 359 not too early? BTW anything similar in Ossetic?****


          Fourth: the war cry 'marga!' was borrowed by Slavic and -> 'marha!', along with the rest of the vocabulary in the relevant Slavic languages (before being replaced by 'ura!' (<- Turkish?).

          ****GK: And "slava!" in some others. But again, there is the matter of the time frame of the g->h switch in areal Slavic... *****

           
          ****************


        • Torsten
          ... I keep forgetting that my own timeline isn t mainstream; the mainstream one has the Slavs arrive in their present locations in the 6th-7th centuries CE
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 1, 2011
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            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- On Fri, 7/1/11, Torsten <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
            >
            > > --- On Fri, 7/1/11, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@> wrote:
            > >
            > > marg- is "death" in Persian/Farsi as in Marg-ba Amrika,or whoever
            > > they have the hate on. So it looks Iranian enough but battle cries
            > > can be borrowed
            > >
            > > GK: Any explanation for the "hyperization" -h i.o. -g? OK in
            > > Iranic dialects or might this tell us something about that of
            > > the "Ticenses"?
            > > Slavic does a pretty good job of alternating between /g/ and /h/
            > > e.g. Russian
            > > govno vs. Ukrainian hivno (vel sim).
            > > Germanic has /g/ where Italic has /h/
            > > Another answer could be the language of the person who wrote it
            > > down, it may have influenced what was written
            >
            > A third answer would postulate, noting that the Slavic g > h seems
            > to be an area thing: Czech, Slovak, Belarussian, Ukranian, southern
            > Russian AFAIK,

            > ****GK: Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this areal "softening"
            > of the G->H a development of the late 1rst millennium/early 2nd
            > millennium CE? In other words, Old (undifferentiated) Slavic
            > retained the hard G?****

            I keep forgetting that my own timeline isn't mainstream; the mainstream one has the Slavs arrive in their present locations in the 6th-7th centuries CE since no one heard of them before; the g -> h thing would be later than that so it's placed in the period you mention; my timeline has them arrive with Ariovistus in the 1st cent. BCE, just being awful quiet about it, and no one takes any notice until they begin to resist slavers in the 6th-7th centuries CE.


            > that the Iranian languages of the same area experienced the same
            > transition?


            > ****GK: But if the above is correct, then is 359 not too early?
            > BTW anything similar in Ossetic?****

            I have no hard facts on Ossetic, unfortunately; I checked
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetic
            and the answer seems to be no.


            > Fourth: the war cry 'marga!' was borrowed by Slavic and ->
            > 'marha!', along with the rest of the vocabulary in the relevant
            > Slavic languages (before being replaced by 'ura!' (<-
            > Turkish?).

            > ****GK: And "slava!" in some others.

            New proposal for 'slava!'
            1) cf. the war cry of the Ambrones: 'Ambrones!'; it could just be their own name.
            2) cf. the Dutch war cry 'sla dood!' "kill"
            http://cf.hum.uva.nl/dsp/ljc/bilderdijk/Rotsgalmen2/aanteeke.html
            'SLA DOOD is van ouds de Hollandsche aanvalkreet des voetvolks, met staven, dat is knotsen of kluppels (ook kuze en kodden of kolven, en goedendags genoemd) en morgenstarren of prikellen, gewapend.'
            http://www.wattpad.com/25223-de-leeuw-van-vlaanderen-of-de-slag-der-gulden?p=56
            ''Sla dood! Sla dood!' huilden de scharen als razend. 'Sla dood de verrader Deconinck! Deconinck!!''

            cf
            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/67876
            ' Gr. = στεγγίς = στελγίς 'a body-scraper'.
            - Boh. tlapa 'paw', Rum. talpe id., talpetá 'to stamp the feet', Lat. talpa 'mole' (from his large, flat front paws), Gr. σκάλοψ and σπάλαξ id., Ital. scalpitare 'to clatter with the hoofs (horses)'; Gr. κολάπτειν 'to stamp with the hoof (horses)'.
            - Bret. (dial. Van) stlafein 'flanquer', Gr. κόλαφος 'a box on the ear'.
            - Bret. stlak 'claquement', stlok = stolok 'bruit sourd'.
            - Bret. stlafad 'soufflet', stalaf 'battant de porte', stalf 'linteau'.
            ...
            - Fr. claque 'a group of hired applauders', Gr. κόλαξ 'a flatterer, fawner'.
            ...
            Bret. stlak = strak 'claque­ment'; stlapad, 'coup de main', strapad 'accès (de mauvais temps, de maladie), strap 'bruit'.'
            and I'd add
            Dutch kloppen, German klopfen "knock", Latin stloppus.

            > But again, there is the matter of the time frame of the g->h switch
            > in areal Slavic...

            Yes. No problem for me.


            Torsten
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