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Re: Hedgehogs ands smiths

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  • Torsten
    ... Well, even though the English language wants to tell you otherwise, a hedgehog is not a hog: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66376 ...
    Message 1 of 3 , Jun 4, 2011
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      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
      >
      > The range of hypotheses is pretty wide as to these "Igylliones". But
      > we have to start with at least a few more or less stable
      > assumptions. (Assumptions, unfortunately not certainties).
      > 1. It is more likely than not that the Igylliones were not known to
      > either Strabo or Pliny.
      > 2. They would thus represent a reality very close in time to
      > Ptolemy, viz., the 2nd c. CE. This has some support in the
      > contextual sequence Igylliones--Costoboci--Transmontani, and in
      > Igylliones as "below" the sequence Venedae--Galindae--Sudini-
      > -Stavani--Alauni.
      > 3. The Igylliones would thus be the population inhabiting the area
      > of Ukraine's Galicia and southern Volynia at that time, viz., the
      > "fusion" of Przeworskers (there since 50 BCE -->) and incoming
      > Zarubinians from the older group 1 area (esp. since 50 CE-->)
      >
      > One immediate question: which component would have contributed the
      > name for the new whole? More likely than not the Zarubinians (since
      > "Peucini" and "Baste(a)rnae" are also acceptable labels for this
      > group, not only in Pliny and Tacitus, but also in Ptolemy).
      >
      > So assumption after assumption (:=)) leaves us with the possibility
      > of trying to ferret out a meaning based on our meager knowledge of
      > Bastarnian history... What would apply better: "smiths" or
      > "hedgehogs"?
      > 1. Either, if the name was that of a leader of incoming Zarubinians
      > (Scythian "Skoloti" analogy): "Smith" or "Hedgehog"...
      > 2. Otherwise, other possibilities come to mind. "Hedgehog" might
      > have military implications (though the ones I discovered are very
      > modern...). Still, by analogy: one can think of the phalanx, which
      > is indeed like a "hedgehog". And the Bastarnians may have fought
      > that way, esp. in the Mithradatic wars. All we know about them,
      > really, is that they were considered fierce warriors, and even "the
      > bravest of the brave". Pretty slim I grant. Or even slimmer: when
      > they intermittently occupied Peuce, the island became a sort of
      > impregnable fortress, a "hedgehog" if you will...

      Well, even though the English language wants to tell you otherwise, a hedgehog is not a hog:
      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66376


      > As to the Finnic hypothesis. I don't know about that. For material
      > evidence I'll wait for Pachkova. I think that Ptolemy's mention of
      > "Finni" below the Goths is almoist certainly misplaced.

      I wouldn't be too sure. I've run too often into matches between Germanic, Slavic, Latin (the 'a-layer', the 'mots populaires' which I now suspect is Sabellic in Latin and Venetic in Germanic and Slavic), Finnic and even Semitic, whatever that may mean. Ex.:


      Rédei
      Uralisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch
      'aŋз 'Schneehuhn, Eisente, Polarente; Harelda glacialis, Anas hiemalis' U
      ? Lapp.
      N hâŋ'ŋa -ŋŋ- ~ hâŋ'ŋja 'long-tailed duck; Harelda glacialis',
      L haŋŋā ~ haŋŋe ~ haŋŋōk 'Eisente; Harelda hiemalis',
      (Friis) N aŋŋalagges, haŋŋalikka,
      (Lind. Öhri) angalok 'Anas hiemalis', (T. I. Itk., WbKKlp. 15)
      Kld. a`ŋŋ-лoņ:dţE,
      Ko. Not. a`ŋŋa loDt
      P a`ŋŋa-loD,D,E 'Polarente (Harelda)',
      (Schlachter) Malå aŋŋàlahka 'zahme Ente'
      ( • hm (dial.) hankelas, hankelo, hankilo 'alfågel, vinterand; Eisente, Winterente (Fuligula glacialis); gräsand; Stockente (Anas boschas)' |

      ostj. (36) V įŋk, DN eŋx 'Schneehuhn, Rebhuhn [?]' |

      wog. (MSz.) T ä:ŋghå:, K өŋkhė 'hófajd; Schneehuhn',
      (Kann.-Liim MSFOu. 101:400)P āŋkə 'id., Rebhuhn',
      (Kann.-Liim.:MSFOu. 101:14,93) KM eŋk 'Schneehuhn', So. āŋxaŋ 'voll von Schneehühnern' ||

      sam.
      jur. (20) O ŋaŋu 'Eisente, Polaгente; Anas hiemalis';
      jen. (Donn.-Joki: JSFOu. 58/1:14) ŋau 'Ente',
      twg. (Mikola: NyK 72: 86) ŋaŋoďa 'kacsa; Ente';
      selk. Ta. Ke. uu, N uu, ú 'Schneehuhn',
      kam. uŋa 'Rebhuhn';
      koib. (Pall.) angat 'Anas rutila';
      karag. (a.a.O) onhò "Tetra lagopus'.

      Vg1. alt.:
      türk. (Kāšγarī) aŋ 'ein Vogel, dessen Fett als Heilmittel dient',
      aŋït 'ein roter gansartiger Vogel,
      jak. andï, annï 'Melanitta fusca; Anas nigra'
      ->
      tung. andï, annï;
      tung. anggir 'trastes bonasia';
      mong. anggir 'Mandarinenente' (mong. -> türk. aŋgïr).

      Der Vokal der ersten Silbe in den lapp. Formen weist auf einen ursprünglichen palatale Vokal, so daß ihre Zugehörigkeit unsicher ist. Möglicherweise hängt aber dies Unregelmäßigkeit mit dem onomat. Charakter des Wortes zusammen. Ebenfalls durch onomat. Charakter kann das lapp. sekundäre anlautende h erklärt werden.
      Die Lautform des aus dem Lapp. übernommenen finn. Wortes kann durch díe volksetymologische Herleitung aus finn. hanki 'Schneekruste' beeinflußt worden sein.
      In den obugrischen Entsprechungen ging ein Wandel *ŋ> *ŋk vor sich.'

      '*o,ty f. Å« 'duck'
      CS CS o,ty f.(Å«)
      E
      Ru. útka f.(ā); utvá (dial.) f.(ā);
      ORu. uty ?? f.(ū), Gsg. utъve;
      utovь f.(ū);
      Bel. uć f.(i)
      S
      SCr. `ùtva f.(ā);
      Sln. ô,tva f.(ā)
      BSl. *an?t-
      B
      Lith. ántis f.(i) 1
      OPr. antis (EV)
      PIE *h2enh2-t-
      Cogn.
      Skt. ātí- f. 'aquatic bird';
      Lat. anas f. 'duck';
      OHG anut f. 'duck''


      'aŋke 'eng, bedrückt, Bedrängnis; eng werden' FU
      ? [Finn.
      ankea 'schwer, bedrängt, bedrückt, niedergeschlagen, melancholisch',
      (Szinnyei) ange (gen. ankeen) 'szorultság; Bedrängnis';
      est. angu- 'gerinnen, starr werden'] |
      ? ung. aggód- 'sich kümmern;
      (dial.) zu Quark aus Kuhmilch werden (saure Milch am warmen Ort)';
      (dial.) óg- 'sich ängstigen, sich kümmern, für etwas Sorge tragen'.

      Das ostseefinnische Wort ist möglicherweise eine Entlehnung aus dem Germanischen (vgl. got. aggwus 'eng...') [Aha. And the Hungarian is what then?].
      Zu dem ung. Wort s. noch *šoŋkз 'eng, Bedrängnis; eng werden' FU. Nomen-Verbum.
      '

      Note: distributed only in the European FU languages:
      Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian. Why?


      Cf.

      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/36900

      and

      *o,zъkъ adj. o 'narrow'
      CS OCS o,zъkъ
      E Ru. úzkij; úzok, f. uzká, n. úzko
      W Cz. úzký; Slk. úzky; Pl. wqzki
      S
      SCr. `ùzak, f. `ùska, f. usk`à;
      Čak. `ùsak, f. usk`à, n. `ùsko;
      Sln. ó,zək, f. ó,zka
      BSl. *anź-(u)-
      B Lith. añkštas
      PIE *h2emģh-u-
      Cogn.
      Skt. am.hú-;
      Lat. angustus;
      Go. aggwus
      See also: *o,ziti; *vęzati; *uvęsti


      *o,kotь f. i
      CS SerbCS o,kotь 'hook'
      E ORu. ukot’ 'claw, anchor'
      BSl. *h2onk-
      B Lith. ánka (K, WP) f. 1 'snare, noose'
      Cogn.
      Skt. a.nká- (RV+) m. 'hook, clamp';
      Gk. `όγκος m. 'hook';
      Lat. uncus 'hook m.
      The root of this derivative is *h2onk-, cf. Lat. ancus (Paul. ex
      Fest.) m. 'with crooked arms' < *h2enk-. For the meaning of the
      root, cf. Skt. añc- 'bend'.

      *o,ziti v. 'constrain'
      CS
      RuCS o,ziti 'constrain, torture' (cf. OCS o,zilište n. 'prison')
      E
      Ru. úzit' 'make narrow, straiten', 1sg. úžu, 3sg. úzit;
      ORu. uziti 'constrain, torture'
      S
      SCr. úziti 'make narrow, straiten', 1sg. ûzīm
      PIE *h2omģh-eie-
      For the root, see -> *o,zъkъ.


      and, more recklessly:

      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/55049

      Uralic *antV- "horn, antlers"
      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62913

      if we want to equate the doorjambs with a pair of horns.


      Torsten
    • george knysh
      From: Torsten To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 4, 2011 12:34 PM Subject: [tied] Re: Hedgehogs ands smiths   ...
      Message 2 of 3 , Jun 4, 2011
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        From: Torsten <tgpedersen@...>
        To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, June 4, 2011 12:34 PM
        Subject: [tied] Re: Hedgehogs ands smiths

         

        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
        >
        > 2. Otherwise, other possibilities come to mind. "Hedgehog" might
        > have military implications (though the ones I discovered are very
        > modern...). Still, by analogy: one can think of the phalanx, which
        > is indeed like a "hedgehog". And the Bastarnians may have fought
        > that way, esp. in the Mithradatic wars. All we know about them,
        > really, is that they were considered fierce warriors, and even "the
        > bravest of the brave". Pretty slim I grant. Or even slimmer: when
        > they intermittently occupied Peuce, the island became a sort of
        > impregnable fortress, a "hedgehog" if you will...

        Well, even though the English language wants to tell you otherwise, a hedgehog is not a hog:
        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66376
         
        ****GK: I was thinking of hedgehog as porcupine actually. And the "military" implications of the beastlet.****

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