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Re: God-fearing ktistai

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  • t0lgsoo1
    ... Perhaps sala and die Salige of the Alpine region (esp. Germany, Austria, Slovenia etc.) are related? http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salige_Frau George
    Message 1 of 27 , May 4, 2011
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      >http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66683

      Perhaps "sala" and "die Salige" of the Alpine region (esp. Germany,
      Austria, Slovenia etc.) are related?

      http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salige_Frau

      George
    • george knysh
      ... He doesn t see it, and especially doesn t see it in ceramics? Explain.   *****GK: Hachmann doesn t see any Poeneshti-Lukashevka local traits in  Middle
      Message 2 of 27 , May 4, 2011
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        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:

        > > >
        > > > > Note the Hachmann quote here:
        > > > > http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66893
        > > >
        > > > > The strange Jungian synchronicity between Middle German and
        > > > > Poieneshti forms stretching into time period B and dying then
        > > > > in Poieneshti seems to be better explained by a wholesale
        > > > > transfer of the Bastarnae to Central Germany.
        > > >
        > > > GK: The problem with this hypothesis is that the Poieneshti
        > > > culture only evolved in Moldavia (more precisely in the Getan
        > > > sections conquered by the Yastorfers). The
        originating Middle
        > > > German culture of the incoming Yastorfers (incl. their fibulae)
        > > > was not Poieneshti since that did not yet exist. It doesn't seem
        > > > reasonable to assume that this "wholesale transfer of the
        > > > Bastarnae to Central Germany" would have been preceded by a
        > > > total loss of all the "local" cultural elements they had
        > > > developed in Moldavia. And Hachmann doesn't see any such in
        > > > Middle Germany esp. in ceramics.

        He doesn't see it, and especially doesn't see it in ceramics? Explain.
         
        *****GK: Hachmann doesn't see any Poeneshti-Lukashevka "local" traits in  Middle Germany. Judging by the quote you gave he relies only on fibulae for his analysis. In any case this is secondary, since we're not really dealing with Hachmann but with your interpretation of some passages from Hachmann. And in that context what I found more than strained is the view that "returning Bastarnae" would somehow have eliminated all non-original Jastorf (and directly developed therefrom) ceramics from their inventory. P/L ceramic forms were inextricably mixed by 70 BCE. There was no way to "disentangle" them. And of course, as we now know, they weren't disentangled in Bukovyna/Galicia, the main new abode of the Bastarnians pushed out by Burebista. So your interpretation seems to imply that the new Bastarnian "ruling class" arrived with little more than the clothes on their backs (if that (:=)), and adopted the local culture wholesale (+innovations with no roots in where they came from or where they arrived). That is why I argued that such an improbable scenario is arguable with practically any outside group, not merely refugees from Bastarnia.*****
      • gknysh
        ... ****GK: As long as these other words reflect what I am saying adequately (=:)))***** the new upper class in Przeworsk can t have been Bastarnian, since
        Message 3 of 27 , May 4, 2011
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          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

          > In other words,

          ****GK: As long as these "other words" reflect what I am saying adequately (=:)))*****


          the new upper class in Przeworsk can't have been Bastarnian, since it can't be derived from any of the components in the Bastarnian ethnos.

          *****GK: There is very little in this world that "can't be". What I am saying is that the balance of probability is such that a Bastarnian provenance for this new upper class is unprovable scientifically. Ideologically of course, it is an entirely different matter. For instance, if I wished to argue that the new ruling class came from Central Asia, or from Ireland, or from Scandinavia, or from the Baltic area, how would that be refuted? And it's not a question os derivation from a "component" but from a whole source as historically constituted.*****



          But in the other hand, one of the components in the Bastarnae was the people of the Przeworsk culture,

          ****GK: At the start of the process. But we are talking about a group which had evolved over a couple of centuries into a mix of many components, cultural and genetic. That is what would have migrated.*****



          so ruling out in principle that the new upper class developed from the Bastarnae at the same time rules out that it developed from the Przeworsk culture, as I think you are aware too. This is a problem.


          ****GK: It is not a problem. It is a non-sequitur. I am not "ruling out in principle", just pointing out that a Bastarnian of 70 BCE was a Bastarnian of 70 BCE and not one of the components prior to the development of the mix. So that if there is no evidence of any such contemporary Bastarnians in the new Przeworsk culture, this is as good an argument as you can get scientifically for the contention that this new ruling class was not of Bastarnian provenance. Archaeology does not know of any "pure Przeworsk" or "pure Jastorf" or "pure Getic sites in Poeneshti-Lukashovka****
        • george knysh
          ... Since now Sciri = Cimbri we see Mithridates front line before the attack on Rome: From Przeworsk over Moldova to the Black Sea coast. Before the attack he
          Message 4 of 27 , May 4, 2011
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            > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:

            Since now Sciri = Cimbri we see Mithridates' front line before the attack on Rome: From Przeworsk over Moldova to the Black Sea coast. Before the attack he would send all his allied armies to that front. That would include the Scythian one he sent for.

            Thus is possible that at that time an army comprising contingents of Mithridates' other allies were present on Bastarnian homeland territory. They would have shared the fate of the local in an unexpected defeat against Burebista.

            ****GK: So the new "upper class" in Przeworsk etc. was "Bastarnian" in the sense that it came from the territory of "Bastarnia"? Is that what you are saying?****


          • george knysh
            ... Also: An egalitarian culture, such as Przeworsk I (the one before the new upper class) was, and such as Scandinavia before the recent immigration wave, has
            Message 5 of 27 , May 4, 2011
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              > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:

              Also: An egalitarian culture, such as Przeworsk I (the one before the new upper class) was, and such as Scandinavia before the recent immigration wave, has very strong social rules in place to ensure that such a class does not arise from within.
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jante_law
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagom
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome
              A new prestigious upper class in such a culture can arise only as a result of violence from the outside. An invasion.
              Thus we have one more problem.
              ****GK: These rules don't always work. In any case they don't prevent what we might call "democratic lordship" i.e. people ruling other people with their consent (at first). And in any event early Przeworsk was the result of an invasion (Jastorfers vs. Lusatians). There is no real impediment to the internal rise of lordships. Which of course does not deny that many such are also external invaders (maybe even from the next village (:=)))****
            • Torsten
              ... I think you re right. BTW Danish salig = German selig. More here: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66191
              Message 6 of 27 , May 4, 2011
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                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "t0lgsoo1" <guestuser.0x9357@...> wrote:
                >
                > >http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66683
                >
                > Perhaps "sala" and "die Salige" of the Alpine region (esp. Germany,
                > Austria, Slovenia etc.) are related?
                >
                > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salige_Frau

                I think you're right.
                BTW Danish salig = German selig.

                More here:
                http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66191
                http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66000
                etc


                Torsten
              • gknysh
                For some reason this wasn t mailed to me. I retrieved it from the cybalist website... ... ****GK: I don t know of any such clearly derogatory use of the term
                Message 7 of 27 , May 4, 2011
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                  For some reason this wasn't mailed to me. I retrieved it from the cybalist website...

                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I think Pekkanen already answered the question of the name type status for 'Bastarnae' by pointing out that it occurs double names like 'Scytae Bastarnae', which would then mean "Bastard Scythians".
                  > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66972

                  ****GK: I prefer the meaning "Bastarnian Scythians" where "Scythian" has become an omnium gatherum and the real specification is "Bastarnian" in a non-insulting sense.****
                  >
                  > Note 'γαλάτας..., βαστέρναι καλου~νται' "Galatians, who are called Basternae". Again, they have a name, and then they are called something (nut not to their face).

                  ****GK: Same thing. One might think of "Galatians who are called Scordisci" or "Galatians who are called Taurisci" or the like.****
                  >
                  > The translations in the text sometimes translate 'γαλάται' as "Gauls", I've kept that, you should compare with the original.
                  >
                  > As you see in the beginning of that posting I have proposed a Germanic *ga-lin-d- "ge-bund-en, bound, tied" as an etymology for the Galindai, and since the Northern West Germanic unfree underclass is called laeti (Low German, like North Germanic and Modern English has no equivalent of ga- in such past participles), I propose that the Galatians are from an n-less *ga-lae-t-, another descendant of the Proto-Germanic(?) word from which also Galindai stems.


                  *****GK: The historical Galindi are a Baltic (in the sense of Letto-Lithuanian) tribe. There's nothing particularly "unfree" about them. And, interestingly, their easternmost group resided in the Moscow area, as late as the 12th c. (=Golyad' in Slavic).****
                  >
                  > Thus, the Sciri and Galatians of the Protogenes decree is actually that eternal duality Sciri and Bastarnae.

                  ****GK: My view is that the later "Bastarnae" = Sciri+Galatians, "bound" in the non-derogatory sense, and still clearly distinguished in the Decree. The Galatians were not too numerous it seems. Some place names remain, and a few material objects. There were less of them than of symbiotic Illyrians (or Venedics) whose contribution to toponyms and hydronyms is even more noticeable than that of the Yastorfers.****
                  >
                  > And more generally, this means that whenever we meet the derogatory exonym 'Bastarnae' in the ancient sources,

                  ****GK: I don't know of any such clearly derogatory use of the term (other than latter day reinterpretations).******


                  we can never be sure that it is not referring to a people we know from elsewhere, under an endonym, their 'real' name. And, mutatis mutandis, similarly for 'Sciri' and its relatives.
                  >
                  >
                  > Torsten
                  >
                • Rick McCallister
                  ________________________________ From: t0lgsoo1 To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 7:17:37 AM Subject: [tied] Re:
                  Message 8 of 27 , May 4, 2011
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                    From: t0lgsoo1 <guestuser.0x9357@...>
                    To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 7:17:37 AM
                    Subject: [tied] Re: God-fearing ktistai

                     

                    >http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66683

                    Perhaps "sala" and "die Salige" of the Alpine region (esp. Germany,
                    Austria, Slovenia etc.) are related?

                    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salige_Frau

                    George

                    Unless they're related to a Celtic word for "willow" BUT willow is mainly a river valley tree --at least in the US and in the British Isles where I've seen it

                  • Torsten
                    ... Does that mean that something in one of those clips refute what I proposed above? If so, what? Torsten
                    Message 9 of 27 , May 6, 2011
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                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "t0lgsoo1" <guestuser.0x9357@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > >BTW, this interpretation of who the Cimbri were (Jastorf, later
                      > >plus Przeworsk, later (Monumentum Ancyranum) reduced to the land
                      > >north of Hamburg, later reduced to just Jutland)
                      >
                      > Imperium Romanum - Teil 1: Kimbern und Teutonen [1/5]
                      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OW9uGyJISQ
                      > [2/5]
                      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DlX32AnbJI
                      > [3/5]
                      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h0-4dDZ_Pg
                      > [4/5]
                      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXQIzDEQ5WU
                      > [5/5]
                      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pUTsgoRyn0
                      >

                      Does that mean that something in one of those clips refute what I proposed above? If so, what?


                      Torsten
                    • Torsten
                      ... Bastarna seems to have son of a slave in Iranian, and bastard , ie. mongrel in Germanic, and as we know from Tacitus, it did so from the beginning. At
                      Message 10 of 27 , May 6, 2011
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                        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "gknysh" <gknysh@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > For some reason this wasn't mailed to me. I retrieved it from the cybalist website...
                        >
                        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I think Pekkanen already answered the question of the name type
                        > > status for 'Bastarnae' by pointing out that it occurs double names
                        > > like 'Scytae Bastarnae', which would then mean "Bastard
                        > > Scythians".
                        > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66972
                        >
                        > ****GK: I prefer the meaning "Bastarnian Scythians" where "Scythian"
                        > has become an omnium gatherum and the real specification is
                        > "Bastarnian" in a non-insulting sense.****

                        Bastarna seems to have "son of a slave" in Iranian, and "bastard", ie. "mongrel" in Germanic, and as we know from Tacitus, it did so from the beginning. At its inception, the word was an insult, and today it is an insult. It ranks with the n-word in non-insultingness, ie you can imagine situations in which it can be construed as non-insulting, but in general, no. It is an insult, and in slave societies such as these a very serious one. We disagree here.

                        > >
                        > > Note 'γαλάτας..., βαστέρναι καλου~νται' "Galatians, who are called
                        > > Basternae". Again, they have a name, and then they are called
                        > > something (nut not to their face).
                        >
                        > ****GK: Same thing. One might think of "Galatians who are called
                        > Scordisci" or "Galatians who are called Taurisci" or the like.****

                        Yes, you may, but that would be misleading.

                        > > The translations in the text sometimes translate 'γαλάται' as
                        > > "Gauls", I've kept that, you should compare with the original.
                        > >
                        > > As you see in the beginning of that posting I have proposed a
                        > > Germanic *ga-lin-d- "ge-bund-en, bound, tied" as an etymology for
                        > > the Galindai, and since the Northern West Germanic unfree
                        > > underclass is called laeti (Low German, like North Germanic and
                        > > Modern English has no equivalent of ga- in such past participles),
                        > > I propose that the Galatians are from an n-less *ga-lae-t-,
                        > > another descendant of the Proto-Germanic(?) word from which also
                        > > Galindai stems.
                        >
                        >
                        > *****GK: The historical Galindi are a Baltic (in the sense of Letto-
                        > Lithuanian) tribe. There's nothing particularly "unfree" about them.
                        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66933

                        > And, interestingly, their easternmost group resided in the Moscow
                        > area, as late as the 12th c. (=Golyad' in Slavic).****


                        > > Thus, the Sciri and Galatians of the Protogenes decree is actually
                        > > that eternal duality Sciri and Bastarnae.
                        >
                        > ****GK: My view is that the later "Bastarnae" = Sciri+Galatians,
                        > "bound" in the non-derogatory sense,

                        'Bound' meant "slave". In what way is that non-derogatory?

                        > and still clearly distinguished in the Decree. The Galatians were
                        > not too numerous it seems. Some place names remain, and a few
                        > material objects. There were less of them than of symbiotic
                        > Illyrians (or Venedics) whose contribution to toponyms and hydronyms
                        > is even more noticeable than that of the Yastorfers.****
                        > >
                        > > And more generally, this means that whenever we meet the
                        > > derogatory exonym 'Bastarnae' in the ancient sources,
                        >
                        > ****GK: I don't know of any such clearly derogatory use of the term > (other than latter day reinterpretations).******

                        Such use would have had to be done in Greek and Latin, and the appellative 'bastard' seems to have been loaned into those languages only later.


                        > > we can never be sure that it is not referring to a people we know
                        > > from elsewhere, under an endonym, their 'real' name. And, mutatis
                        > > mutandis, similarly for 'Sciri' and its relatives.


                        Torsten
                      • t0lgsoo1
                        ... No such Hintergedanken whatsoever. The only Hintergedanke: this entertainment tv presentation & interviews given by professional historians would be
                        Message 11 of 27 , May 6, 2011
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                          >>[5/5]
                          >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pUTsgoRyn0
                          >
                          >Does that mean that something in one of those clips refute
                          >what I proposed above? If so, what?

                          No such Hintergedanken whatsoever.

                          The only Hintergedanke: this entertainment tv presentation &
                          interviews given by professional historians would be interesting
                          to some of those who have read the discuss. threads on cybalist.

                          [I even didn't have the time to re-see this film I saw on tv some
                          years ago. BTW, in various such tv history series (most of them
                          have been posted on to youtube), some of the actor teams are
                          from... "Dacia", i.e. chiefly actors residing in Bucharest.)

                          George
                        • george knysh
                          ... Bound meant slave . In what way is that non-derogatory? ****GK: Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae#Name_etymology  The origin of the tribal
                          Message 12 of 27 , May 6, 2011
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                            > > Thus, the Sciri and Galatians of the Protogenes decree is actually
                            > > that eternal duality Sciri and Bastarnae.
                            >
                            > GK: My view is that the later "Bastarnae" = Sciri+Galatians,
                            > "bound" in the non-derogatory sense,

                            'Bound' meant "slave". In what way is that non-derogatory?
                            "The origin of the tribal name is uncertain. One possible derivation is from the proto-Germanic word *bastjan (from Proto-Indo-European root word *bhas) means "binding" or "tie".[3] In this case, Bastarnae may have had the original meaning of an alliance or bund of tribes. " I prefer this analysis to yours.
                             
                            as for "a derivation from Old Persian, Avestan bast- "bound, tied; slave" this seems to say that "slave" is only one sense. Others resemble the above.*****
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