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Re: Satarchae, Sadagarii, Sagartioi, Sargetae, Asagarta; Ásgarð-?

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  • Torsten
    ... Some may recall that George Knysh and I had a long debate on the first date of Mithridates preparation for war on Rome in its Italian homeland where he
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 4 2:16 PM
      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > > So Satarchae, Sadagarii, Sagartioi, Sargetae and more are just
      > > several names for the same people. Are there more?
      > >
      > > It seems Pekkanen derives all the various forms of the names of
      > > this Iranian upper layer / nomadic people, descendants of the
      > > Royal Scythians, from *(a)sagart-.
      > > Now this is just too tempting:
      > >
      > > *asagart- -> Ásgarð-
      > >
      > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asgard
      ...

      >
      >
      > > I'll attempt an etymology myself:
      > >
      > > Snorri calls his people men of Asia.
      ...

      > >
      > > de Vries
      > > 'austr - 2 'east',
      > > Icel. austur, Faroe eystur, Norw. aust(er),
      > > OSw. oster, Sw. östr, ODa. ostær, Da. øst(er).
      > > - > lp. austa (Qvigstad 95); > ne. ON. Owston, Austwick (Mawer 3).
      > > - OE easter, eastre "easter"), OFr. ōstr, OS OHG ōstar,
      > > cf. Got. Austro-gothi, Ostrogothae 'East Goths'.
      > > - Lat. aurora 'dawn', auster 'south wind',
      > > Gr. α`ύριον 'morning', Hom. `ηώς 'dawn',
      > > Sanskrit uşās 'dawn', ucchati 'it dawns',
      > > Lit. au~šta 'it dawns', aušrà f. "dawn", Latv. austrs 'east wind',
      > > austrums m. 'east' (IEW 86-7). '
      > >
      > > from *aNs- -> *aus-?
      > >
      > >
      > > The original form of the toponym/ethnonym, might thus be
      > > *aNsa-gart- "east fort/court"
      > > Perhaps *aNsaN-gart -> *asaŋart- -> *samart- -> Sarmat-, with
      > > folk-etymological side-form(from sauro- "lizard", ommat- "eye")
      > > Sauromat- ?
      > > cf. the nasal of
      > > Avestan ušå:, acc. ušåŋhəm, gen. ušaŋhō "dawn" (Pokorny);
      > > and note also aug- "shine"; see' ibd., best explained (I think)
      > > from
      > > *aN- -> *aŋ- -> *aNg- -> *aug-, the above root as an s-stem *aN-s-
      > > -> *aus-
      >
      >
      > I can't find an etymology for Persian saudagar "trader".
      > Is it <- *aNsaN-gart- (cf. Sadagarii)?
      >


      Some may recall that George Knysh and I had a long debate on the first date of Mithridates' preparation for war on Rome in its Italian homeland where he insisted that Mithridates had no such plans until immediately before his suicide in 63 BCE and that no further attempt were made to carry out such plans.

      Harmatta has a long interesting excerpt on the net on the Western Sarmatian tribal confederacy 125 BCE - 61 BCE.
      http://www.kroraina.com/sarm/jh/jh1_1.html
      http://www.kroraina.com/sarm/jh/jh1_2.html
      http://www.kroraina.com/sarm/jh/jh1_3.html
      http://www.kroraina.com/sarm/jh/jh1_4.html
      http://www.kroraina.com/sarm/jh/jh1_5.html
      http://www.kroraina.com/sarm/jh/jh1_6.html
      http://www.kroraina.com/sarm/jh/jh1_7.html
      http://www.kroraina.com/sarm/jh/jh1_8.html
      http://www.kroraina.com/sarm/jh/jh1_9.html
      http://www.kroraina.com/sarm/jh/jh1_10.html

      I quote from
      http://www.kroraina.com/sarm/jh/jh1_5.html
      'That he succeeded in winning the Sarmatians for himself is proved clearly by a report of Appianos (Mithr. 19),
      http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/appian/appian_mithridatic_04.html
      according to which he used Sarmatian cavalry as his vanguard as early as in the first war against the Romans.

      Apart from this our sources also mention continually the Sarmatians as his allies. This shows that he could after the initial hostilities establish lasting good relations with them which might have been inspired in addition to his personal charm and clever diplomacy also by common economic and political interest. Undoubtedly the Sarmatians were in sore need of the industrial goods made or distributed in the Greek cities of the Black Sea. There is no better evidence of this than the fact that after the Getae had devastated their town, the Olbians returned to its site as a result of the persuasion of the "Scythians" (= Sarmatians) and founded Olbia again. Accordingly, it was in the interest of the Sarmatians to be on good terms with the king ot the Pontus who held the Greek cities in his power. As to political aims, it may have been Mithridates' old plan to attack the Romans by land, from the North, i. e. from the Pontus as well. To this effect, along with the other Pontic peoples, the strong Sarmatian tribal confederacy could be used appropriately, therefore it is probable that Mithridates approved, and possibly encouraged, the spreading of the Sarmatians to the West. For the Sarmatians, on the other hand, this was the only possibility of expansion after the occupation of the Greek cities of the Pontus by Mithridates, besides, the possession of the Roumanian plain and the Dobrudja was always highly desirable to the peoples of the steppes.'

      http://www.kroraina.com/sarm/jh/jh1_6.html
      'In this construction it is of special importance that this was not the first intrusion of the Bastarnae in this direction towards the territory south of the Danube. Much earlier, in 179 B. C., in alliance with Philip, king of Macedonia, strong Bastarnian forces had crossed the Danube. Philip wanted the Bastarnae first to occupy the territory of the Dardani in order that they should then intrude with the Scordiscians into Northern Italy. Although his death foiled this plan, one Bastarnian fraction, notwithstanding set foot on Dardanian territory and only three years later was it possible for the Dardani to drive them out. These antecedents of this Sarmato-Bastarnian-Scythian expansion during the Ist Mithridatic War, are all the more interesting as they show Mithridates' plans to have been very similar to Philip's designs of attacking Italy on land from the Balkans. Thus it is easily possible that the intrusion of these peoples on Triballian territory happened at his instigation. That this territory had strategic importance is clearly shown by the fact that the Bastarnae much later, after Boirebistas' death, again penetrating into this South-Danubian territory and setting foot on the land of the Dentheletians, south of what is to-day Sofia, marched across Triballian territory.'

      The Strabo quotes of that page are here
      http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7C*.html


      I'll venture another etymology:
      The Saii/Saians of
      http://www.kroraina.com/sarm/jh/jh1_8.html
      are *(aN)saN-, living in *(aN)saN-gart- (see above). If so, the Royal Scythians/Sarmatians are not a new people, but another name for the Saii.

      Harmatta concludes
      http://www.kroraina.com/sarm/jh/jh1_10.html
      'Round the time of the death of Mithridates Eupator the strong Sarmatian tribal confederacy disintegrated and the "Royal" Sarmatians vanished from history. What may have been the reason cannot be clearly stated for the time being. However, later, after the consolidation of Roman power in the Balkans and the Pontic region such a strong Sarmatian power could not again spring up., so that we may indeed regard the epoch of the Sarmatian tribal confederacy existing between 125 B. C. and 61 B. C. as the most interesting period in Western Sarmatian history.'



      Torsten
    • Brian M. Scott
      ... [...] ... Perhaps, but that s only Ch. 2. Then there s Ch. 7: Óðin changed shapes; his body then lay as if asleep or dead, and he was then a bird or an
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 13 11:28 PM
        At 4:20:35 PM on Wednesday, December 1, 2010, Torsten wrote:

        > http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Heimskringla/Ynglinga_Saga#Of_the_People_of_Asia.

        [...]

        > I can't see anything in that description that would be
        > improbable for a ruler of an Iranian upper layer / nomadic
        > people.

        Perhaps, but that's only Ch. 2. Then there's Ch. 7:

        Óðin changed shapes; his body then lay as if asleep or dead,
        and he was then a bird or an animal, a fish or a serpent,
        and travelled in the twinkling of an eye to distant lands,
        on his or other people's errands. In addition he was able
        with words alone to put out a fire and calm the sea, and to
        turn the winds any way he wished. Óðin had a ship that was
        called Skiðblaðnir, on which he travelled over great oceans,
        but it could be folded up like cloth. Óðin had with him
        Mímir's head, and it told him many tidings from other
        regions. And now and then he awakened dead men from the
        earth, or sat under a gallows; on this account he was called
        lord of ghosts or lord of hanged men. He had two ravens
        that he had trained to talk; they flew far and wide all over
        the lands and told him many tidings. From these things he
        became very wise. He knew all the skills with runes and
        incantations that are called witchcraft; on that account the
        Æsir are called sorcerers. Óðin knew that skill that the
        greatest might accompanied, and himself practised what is
        called <seið>. And thereby he could know people's fates and
        things yet to come, as also cause people's death or bad luck
        or illness, as also to take from people their wits or
        strength and give them to others. But so much lewdness
        accompanies this sorcery when it is performed that it did
        not seem to men other than disgraceful to deal with it, and
        this skill was taught to the priestesses. Óðin knew about
        all treasure hidden in the earth, where it was hidden, and
        he understood the incantations that opened the earth before
        him, and boulders and stones, and the mounds, and he bound
        with words alone those who were present, and went in and
        took as he wished. He became very famous on account fo
        these powers; his enemies feared him, but his friends
        trusted him and believed in his power and in him himself.
        And he knew the most skills of his sacrificing priests; they
        were closest to him in all witchcraft and sorcery. Yet many
        others learned much and have thence spread the art of
        sorcery far and wide and long continued to practise it.
        And people worshipped Óðin and those twelve chieftains and
        called them their gods and believed in them long afterwards.

        Brian
      • Torsten
        ... Asia s full of those guys. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaman I ll let you in on a secret, Brian, if you promise not to tell: I don t think he actually
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 14 2:30 PM
          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <bm.brian@...> wrote:
          >
          > At 4:20:35 PM on Wednesday, December 1, 2010, Torsten wrote:
          >
          > > http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Heimskringla/Ynglinga_Saga#Of_the_People_of_Asia.
          >
          > [...]
          >
          > > I can't see anything in that description that would be
          > > improbable for a ruler of an Iranian upper layer / nomadic
          > > people.
          >
          > Perhaps, but that's only Ch. 2. Then there's Ch. 7:
          >
          > Ã"ðin changed shapes; his body then lay as if asleep or dead,
          > and he was then a bird or an animal, a fish or a serpent,
          > and travelled in the twinkling of an eye to distant lands,
          > on his or other people's errands. In addition he was able
          > with words alone to put out a fire and calm the sea, and to
          > turn the winds any way he wished. Ã"ðin had a ship that was
          > called Skiðblaðnir, on which he travelled over great oceans,
          > but it could be folded up like cloth. Ã"ðin had with him
          > Mímir's head, and it told him many tidings from other
          > regions. And now and then he awakened dead men from the
          > earth, or sat under a gallows; on this account he was called
          > lord of ghosts or lord of hanged men. He had two ravens
          > that he had trained to talk; they flew far and wide all over
          > the lands and told him many tidings. From these things he
          > became very wise. He knew all the skills with runes and
          > incantations that are called witchcraft; on that account the
          > Æsir are called sorcerers. Ã"ðin knew that skill that the
          > greatest might accompanied, and himself practised what is
          > called <seið>. And thereby he could know people's fates and
          > things yet to come, as also cause people's death or bad luck
          > or illness, as also to take from people their wits or
          > strength and give them to others. But so much lewdness
          > accompanies this sorcery when it is performed that it did
          > not seem to men other than disgraceful to deal with it, and
          > this skill was taught to the priestesses. Ã"ðin knew about
          > all treasure hidden in the earth, where it was hidden, and
          > he understood the incantations that opened the earth before
          > him, and boulders and stones, and the mounds, and he bound
          > with words alone those who were present, and went in and
          > took as he wished. He became very famous on account fo
          > these powers; his enemies feared him, but his friends
          > trusted him and believed in his power and in him himself.
          > And he knew the most skills of his sacrificing priests; they
          > were closest to him in all witchcraft and sorcery. Yet many
          > others learned much and have thence spread the art of
          > sorcery far and wide and long continued to practise it.
          > And people worshipped Ã"ðin and those twelve chieftains and
          > called them their gods and believed in them long afterwards.

          Asia's full of those guys.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaman

          I'll let you in on a secret, Brian, if you promise not to tell: I don't think he actually did that.



          Torsten
        • Rick McCallister
          ________________________________ From: Torsten To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, December 14, 2010 5:30:38 PM Subject: Re:
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 14 3:43 PM



            From: Torsten <tgpedersen@...>
            To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tue, December 14, 2010 5:30:38 PM
            Subject: Re: [tied] Satarchae, Sadagarii, Sagartioi, Sargetae, Asagarta; �sgarð-?

             



            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <bm.brian@...> wrote:
            >
            > At 4:20:35 PM on Wednesday, December 1, 2010, Torsten wrote:
            >
            > > http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Heimskringla/Ynglinga_Saga#Of_the_People_of_Asia.
            >
            > [...]
            >
            > > I can't see anything in that description that would be
            > > improbable for a ruler of an Iranian upper layer / nomadic
            > > people.
            >
            > Perhaps, but that's only Ch. 2. Then there's Ch. 7:
            >
            > Ã"ðin changed shapes; his body then lay as if asleep or dead,
            > and he was then a bird or an animal, a fish or a serpent,
            > and travelled in the twinkling of an eye to distant lands,
            > on his or other people's errands. In addition he was able
            > with words alone to put out a fire and calm the sea, and to
            > turn the winds any way he wished. Ã"ðin had a ship that was
            > called Skiðblaðnir, on which he travelled over great oceans,
            > but it could be folded up like cloth. Ã"ðin had with him
            > Mímir's head, and it told him many tidings from other
            > regions. And now and then he awakened dead men from the
            > earth, or sat under a gallows; on this account he was called
            > lord of ghosts or lord of hanged men. He had two ravens
            > that he had trained to talk; they flew far and wide all over
            > the lands and told him many tidings. From these things he
            > became very wise. He knew all the skills with runes and
            > incantations that are called witchcraft; on that account the
            > Æsir are called sorcerers. Ã"ðin knew that skill that the
            > greatest might accompanied, and himself practised what is
            > called <seið>. And thereby he could know people's fates and
            > things yet to come, as also cause people's death or bad luck
            > or illness, as also to take from people their wits or
            > strength and give them to others. But so much lewdness
            > accompanies this sorcery when it is performed that it did
            > not seem to men other than disgraceful to deal with it, and
            > this skill was taught to the priestesses. Ã"ðin knew about
            > all treasure hidden in the earth, where it was hidden, and
            > he understood the incantations that opened the earth before
            > him, and boulders and stones, and the mounds, and he bound
            > with words alone those who were present, and went in and
            > took as he wished. He became very famous on account fo
            > these powers; his enemies feared him, but his friends
            > trusted him and believed in his power and in him himself.
            > And he knew the most skills of his sacrificing priests; they
            > were closest to him in all witchcraft and sorcery. Yet many
            > others learned much and have thence spread the art of
            > sorcery far and wide and long continued to practise it.
            > And people worshipped Ã"ðin and those twelve chieftains and
            > called them their gods and believed in them long afterwards.

            Asia's full of those guys.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaman

            I'll let you in on a secret, Brian, if you promise not to tell: I don't think he actually did that.

            Torsten

            What, you blasphemer. Odin, according to genealogical charts was my ancestor. That in itself makes it all true ;p


          • Torsten
            ... Oh, I m so sorry; I didn t realize.... I didn t really mean it, please don t burn my embassy. I think I ll go out an find something to sacrifice Torsten
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 14 5:50 PM
              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Torsten <tgpedersen@...>
              > To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tue, December 14, 2010 5:30:38 PM
              > Subject: Re: [tied] Satarchae, Sadagarii, Sagartioi, Sargetae, Asagarta;
              > ÃÆ'�sgarÃÆ'°-?
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <bm.brian@> wrote:
              > >
              > > At 4:20:35 PM on Wednesday, December 1, 2010, Torsten wrote:
              > >
              > > >
              > >http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Heimskringla/Ynglinga_Saga#Of_the_People_of_Asia.
              > >
              > > [...]
              > >
              > > > I can't see anything in that description that would be
              > > > improbable for a ruler of an Iranian upper layer / nomadic
              > > > people.
              > >
              > > Perhaps, but that's only Ch. 2. Then there's Ch. 7:
              > >
              > > Ã"ðin changed shapes; his body then lay as if asleep or dead,
              > > and he was then a bird or an animal, a fish or a serpent,
              > > and travelled in the twinkling of an eye to distant lands,
              > > on his or other people's errands. In addition he was able
              > > with words alone to put out a fire and calm the sea, and to
              > > turn the winds any way he wished. Ã"ðin had a ship that was
              > > called Skiðblaðnir, on which he travelled over great oceans,
              > > but it could be folded up like cloth. Ã"ðin had with him
              > > Mímir's head, and it told him many tidings from other
              > > regions. And now and then he awakened dead men from the
              > > earth, or sat under a gallows; on this account he was called
              > > lord of ghosts or lord of hanged men. He had two ravens
              > > that he had trained to talk; they flew far and wide all over
              > > the lands and told him many tidings. From these things he
              > > became very wise. He knew all the skills with runes and
              > > incantations that are called witchcraft; on that account the
              > > Æsir are called sorcerers. Ã"ðin knew that skill that the
              > > greatest might accompanied, and himself practised what is
              > > called <seið>. And thereby he could know people's fates and
              > > things yet to come, as also cause people's death or bad luck
              > > or illness, as also to take from people their wits or
              > > strength and give them to others. But so much lewdness
              > > accompanies this sorcery when it is performed that it did
              > > not seem to men other than disgraceful to deal with it, and
              > > this skill was taught to the priestesses. Ã"ðin knew about
              > > all treasure hidden in the earth, where it was hidden, and
              > > he understood the incantations that opened the earth before
              > > him, and boulders and stones, and the mounds, and he bound
              > > with words alone those who were present, and went in and
              > > took as he wished. He became very famous on account fo
              > > these powers; his enemies feared him, but his friends
              > > trusted him and believed in his power and in him himself.
              > > And he knew the most skills of his sacrificing priests; they
              > > were closest to him in all witchcraft and sorcery. Yet many
              > > others learned much and have thence spread the art of
              > > sorcery far and wide and long continued to practise it.
              > > And people worshipped Ã"ðin and those twelve chieftains and
              > > called them their gods and believed in them long afterwards.
              >
              > Asia's full of those guys.
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaman
              >
              > I'll let you in on a secret, Brian, if you promise not to tell: I
              > don't think he actually did that.
              >
              > Torsten
              > What, you blasphemer. Odin, according to genealogical charts was my
              > ancestor.
              > That in itself makes it all true ;p

              Oh, I'm so sorry; I didn't realize....
              I didn't really mean it, please don't burn my embassy.
              I think I'll go out an find something to sacrifice


              Torsten
            • Brian M. Scott
              ... [...] ... I know. Your faith in your sources is as selective as your ignorance of source criticism and medieval practice is profound. I rarely bother to
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 15 3:53 PM
                At 5:30:38 PM on Tuesday, December 14, 2010, Torsten wrote:

                > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott"
                > <bm.brian@...> wrote:

                >> At 4:20:35 PM on Wednesday, December 1, 2010, Torsten
                >> wrote:

                >>> http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Heimskringla/Ynglinga_Saga#Of_the_People_of_Asia.

                >> [...]

                >>> I can't see anything in that description that would be
                >>> improbable for a ruler of an Iranian upper layer /
                >>> nomadic people.

                >> Perhaps, but that's only Ch. 2. Then there's Ch. 7:

                [...]

                > I'll let you in on a secret, Brian, if you promise not to
                > tell: I don't think he actually did that.

                I know. Your faith in your sources is as selective as your
                ignorance of source criticism and medieval practice is
                profound. I rarely bother to comment on this sort of
                nonsense nowadays, but I was in the mood to practise my Old
                Norse.

                Brian
              • Torsten
                ... Trying to trash talk me again? Try facts next time. ... From which I benefitted. Thank you very much, Brian. Torsten
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 17 12:07 AM
                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <bm.brian@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > At 5:30:38 PM on Tuesday, December 14, 2010, Torsten wrote:
                  >
                  > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott"
                  > > <bm.brian@> wrote:
                  >
                  > >> At 4:20:35 PM on Wednesday, December 1, 2010, Torsten
                  > >> wrote:
                  >
                  > >>> http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Heimskringla/Ynglinga_Saga#Of_the_People_of_Asia.
                  >
                  > >> [...]
                  >
                  > >>> I can't see anything in that description that would be
                  > >>> improbable for a ruler of an Iranian upper layer /
                  > >>> nomadic people.
                  >
                  > >> Perhaps, but that's only Ch. 2. Then there's Ch. 7:
                  >
                  > [...]
                  >
                  > > I'll let you in on a secret, Brian, if you promise not to
                  > > tell: I don't think he actually did that.
                  >
                  > I know. Your faith in your sources is as selective as your
                  > ignorance of source criticism and medieval practice is
                  > profound.

                  Trying to trash talk me again? Try facts next time.

                  > I rarely bother to comment on this sort of nonsense nowadays, but I
                  > was in the mood to practise my Old Norse.

                  From which I benefitted. Thank you very much, Brian.


                  Torsten
                • Torsten
                  Slightly improved, and extended: Tuomo Pekkanen The Ethnic Origins of the δουλοσποροι pp 144-149 THE SATARCHAE - SADAGARII
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 20 1:50 PM
                    Slightly improved, and extended:


                    Tuomo Pekkanen
                    The Ethnic Origins of the δουλοσποροι
                    pp 144-149

                    'THE SATARCHAE - SADAGARII
                    Above I arrived at the conclusion that the Sarmatae Limigantes (Limig-Antes, servi Sarmatarum) represent the same subjected population called σκύθαι `αροτήρες - γεωργοί by Herodotus. The ruling Iranian class was in Herodotus' time the σκύθαι βασιλήιοι, and in the 4th century A.D. it was known by the name Sarmatae Argaragantes (Argarag-Antes, domini). It was also established that according to the accepted opinion the Slavonic word spolin, ispolin 'giant' derives its origin from the name of the Spali (Iord. Get. 28 Spali, Plin. nat. 6, 22 Spalaei). As Pliny in nat. 6, 22 classes the Spali among the tribes known as Satarchae (Satharchei), the presumed identity of Spali with spolin, ispolin implies that not only the Spali, as Dvornik thinks, but also the Satarchae were in control of the primitive Slavs. On these assumptions the Royal Scythians, Satarchae, and Sarmatae Argaragantes are at least comparable in that in relation to the Slavs they represent the ruling population in different periods. Therefore it is possible that other connections might also exist between these three groups.

                    As a matter of fact Müllenhoff has already pointed out that the Satarchae (σατορχαι~οι) of Callistratus occupied approximately the same area as the Royal Scythians of Herodotus.1 The location of these two groups suggests that the Satarchae may have been remnants of the Royal Scythians.2 This hypothesis is to some extent also supported by the fact that in Plin. nat. 4, 85 the Satarchae are expressly called Scythians.3

                    It seems to me possible that the name of the Satarchae may have a connection with the Sadagarii of Iord. Get. 265. The last to have discussed this name is Wagner,4 who rejects the suggestion of Zeuss that the Sadagarii may be the same group which in Iord. Get. 272-273 is called Sadagis.5 Wagner, however, has paid no attention to the variants of these two names found in the MSS. of Jordanes: Get. 265 Sauromatae vero quos Sarmatas dicimus et Ce­mandri et quidam ex Hunnis parte Illyrici ad Castramartenam urbem sedes sibi datas coluerunt. ex quo genere fuit Blivila dux Pentapolitanus eiusque germanus Froila et nostri temporis Bessa patricius. Scyri vero et Sadagarii (sadagari A, satagarii B, sa . . . . rii [sagagorii O2] O1, sadacarii XY) et certi Alanorum cum duce suo nomine Candac Scythiam minorem inferioremque Moesiam acceperunt. ... ib. 272 Postquam ergo firma pax Gothorum cum Romanis effecta est, videntes Gothi non sibi sufficere ea quae ab imperatore acciperent simulque solitam cupientes ostentare virtutem, coeperunt vicinas gentes circumcirca praedari, primum contra Sadagis (satagis O, satagas B, sadages XZ, sagades Y, sadares A), qui interiorem Pannoniam possidebant, arma moventes. ... ib. 273 quod conperto Gothi ibi, ubi erant, expeditionemque solventes, quam contra Sadagis (sadages AXZ, sagades Y, satagas B) collegerant, in Hunnos convertunt et sic eos suis a finibus inglorios pepulerunt, ut iam ex illo tempore qui re­manserunt Hunni et usque actenus Gothorum arma formident. The view of Wagner is unfounded because of the mere fact that the variants of the latter name can be understood only if we consider the original form to have been *Satagares or *Sadagares: sadares A < *sada[ga]res; sadages XZ (A in 273) < *sadag[ar]es; sagades Υ < sadages < *sadag[ar]es; satagas < *sataga[re]s; satagis Ο < *satag[ar]es. The fact that the names Sadagarii (Satagarii) - *Sadagares (*Sata­gares) have been inflected in different declensions is by no means an obstacle to their identification, for the same inconsistency also appears in Jordanes in the inflection of other names, e. g. Antes (Get. 34, 35, 119) - Anti (Get. 247), Bulgares (Rom. 388, Get. 37) - Bulgari (Rom. 363), Venethae (Get. 34) - Venethi (Get. 119).

                    I also hold the view that the σαγάδαρες (σαδάγαρεσ A) mentioned in Iul. Ep. 75 cannot be separated from the Sadagarii (*Sadagares) of Jordanes: `ιδο`υ γ`αρ πα~ν γένος βαρβάρων μέχρις ´ορίων `ωκεανου~ ποταμου~ δωρά μοι κομίζον ´η~κε παρ`α ποσ`ι τοι~ς `εμοι~ς, ´ομοίως δ`ε κα`ι *σαγάδαρες* (σαδάγαρεσ α) ο´ι παρ`α τ`ον δάνουβιν `εκτραφέντες, ο´ι ε`υμορφοποικιλοκαθαρόμορφοι, ο´ι~ς ο`υκ `έστι θέα ´ομοιοειδής `ανθρώπων, `αλλα μορφή `αγριαίνουσα. Ο´υ~τοι κατ`α τ`ην `ενεστω~σαν προκαλινδου~νται `ίχνεσι τοι~ς `εμοι~ς, ´υπισχνούμενοί μοι ποιει~ν `εκει~να, ´άπερ τη,~ `εμη,~ αρμόζει βασιλεία. Although Bidez and Cumont like previous editors have chosen the form σαγάδαρες in their text, I am fully convinced that the variant σαδάγα­ρεσ must be given preference because it corresponds exactly to the form used by Jordanes. It may also be noticed that the people mentioned in Iul. Ep. 75 lived παρ`α τ`ον δάνουβιν, and can therefore equally well be located in Pan­nonia interior, occupied by the *Sadagares of Jordanes. In these circumstances the etymology given by Abaev for σαγάδαρες must be rejected as being based on an incorrect reading of the MSS.6

                    Zeuss has also connected the Sadagarii of Jordanes with the σαργάτιοι (var. σαγάρτιοι) of Ptol. Geog. 3, 5, 10 and the Sargetae of Amm. 22, 8, 38 and he thinks that the name may be of Iranian origin.7 It should be noticed that Zeuss did not know the variant σαγάρτιοι because the editions of Wilberg (1838) and Nobbe (1843) in Ptol. Geog. 3, 5, 10 give only the reading σαργάτιοι. Like his predecessors, Müller (1883) has chosen σαργάτιοι for his text, but the variant σαγάρτιοι draws from him the comment: »Num eadem gens sint σαγάρτιοι Mediae (Ptol. Geog. 6, 2, 6; Hdt. 1, 125) quaeritur».8 The difference between the views of Zeuss and Müller is that the former only speaks of the name, whereas Müller thinks it possible that the tribe itself might have had a common origin (»eadem gens») with the σαγάρτιοι in Media.

                    As for the Sargetae of Ammianus, Th. Mommsen was already led to the conclusion that in 22, 8, 38 Ammianus derived his information from Ptol. Geog. 3, 5, 10, a conclusion implying that the Sargetae, σαργάτιοι, are identical.9 Polaschek accepts the identification but thinks that the immediate source of Ammianus was a chorography based on Ptolemy, not Ptolemy himself.10

                    It seems to me that the suggestion of Zeuss about the identity of the Sadagarii (Iord. Get. 265) with the σαργάτιοι, var. σαγάρτιοι, (Ptol. Geog. 3, 5, 10) is supported by the fact that both names appear in connection with that of the Alani: Iord. Get. 265 Sadagarii et certi Alanorum - Ptol. Geog. 3, 5, 10 μεταξ`υ δ`ε τω~ν `αλανω~ν κα`ι τω~ν ´αμαξοβίων καρίωνες κα`ι σαργάτιοι. They can also be easily connected with each other phonetically. In order to establish the value of the variant σαγάρτιοι, the same name known from Media must be examined briefly.11

                    The name σαγάρτιοι appears in Herodotus three times: 1, 125 σαγάρτωι; 3, 93 σαγαρτίων (σαργατίων ABC); 7, 85 σαγάρτιοι (σαργάτιοι RSV).12 Ptolemy (apart from Geog. 3, 5, 10) has it once: Geog. 6, 2, 6 σαγάρτοι. Stephanus of Byzantium (s. v.) mentions a peninsula in the Caspian Sea by the name σαγαρτία and its inhabitants as σαγάρτιοι. The Greek names enumerated have been connected with Asagarta, the province in North-Western Persia, known from the inscriptions of Darius I.13 On the evidence of these inscriptions it is certain that in Herodotus the form σαγάρτιοι is to be regarded as the right one. Consequently, the variant σαργάτοοι in Hdt. 3, 93 and 7, 85 is only a corrupted form of it, i. e. σαργάτιοι has developed from σαγάρτιοι, not vice versa. Since even Ptolemy's MSS. have the same two forms, σαργάτιοι - σαγάρτνοι in Geog. 3, 5, 10, it seems to me reasonable to accept the latter as the correct one. However, it cannot be denied that the Greeks may have used both forms alongside each other.

                    Provided that the reading σαγάρτιοι is given preference in Ptol. Geog. 3, 5, 10, the Sadagarii (Satagarii) - *Sadagares (*Satagares) of Iord. Get. 265, 272-273 may have developed from it in the following manner: σαγάρ­τιοι has been changed by metathesis to *σατάργιοι, the existence of which is to some extent suggested by Plin. nat. 6,22 Satharchei; *σατάργιοι was used as a parallel form alongside the original σαγάρτιοι, and finally these two forms were mutually contaminated to σαταγάριοι (= Iord. Get. 265 Satagarii, 272-273 *Satagares, Iul. Ep. 75 σαδάγαρες). To summarize the development: 1) σαγάρτιοι > *σατάργιοι (metathesis), 2) σαγάρτωι + *σατάργιοι > σατα-γάρ-ιοι (contamination).

                    On the evidence presented above, I am of the opinion that Zeuss' sugges­tion concerning the identity of the Sadagarii - Satagarii (Iord. Get. 265) and the σαργάτιοι ~ σαγάρτιοι (Ptol. Geog. 3, 5, 10) can with good reason be accepted. This identification suggests that the name is of Iranian origin. Its etymology must, of course, be determined on the basis of the primary form σαγάρτιοι, not its corruptions. The etymologies discussed by Wagner must be rejected because they are based on a secondary reading.14 The only suggestion worthy of notice is that of R. G. Kent, who derives Asagarta from Iranian asan- 'stone' + *garta- 'cave' (cf. Sanskrit gárta-) and translates it as 'Land of Stone-Cave Dwellers'.15 The same explanation is given by Chr. Bartho­lomae, who further thinks that the name of the province comes from that of its inhabitants.16 In accordance with this etymology, the name σαγάρτιοι can be translated as 'Stone-Cave Dwellers'. I do not think, however, that there is any reason for regarding the σαγάρτιοι of Media as the same tribe as those known in Europe, a possibility which, Müller thought worth considera­tion. As the name σαγάρτιοι seems to be the Iranian equivalent of the Greek name τρωγλοδύται, τρωγοδύται,17 it may have appeared indepen­dently in both areas, i. e. it may have been attached to those Iranian tribes of whom it was characteristic to dwell in caves independent of their tribal relationships.

                    In RE I A, 2498 s. v. Sargatioi there is a reference to the article on the Satarchae in RE II A, 60, but under this heading the Ptolemaic name in question has been neglected altogether. Nevertheless, I think it most likely that the names Satarchae and σαργάτιοι, σαγάρτιοι are of the same origin. This is suggested above all by the fact that according to Mela 2, 1, 10 the Satarchae used to live in caves and dugouts,18 and therefore the designation 'cave-dwellers' would apply to them quite well. It can be assumed that the original σαγάρτιοι has been changed by metathesis to *σατάργιοι, as was suggested above, and this form has been connected by popular etymology with the Greek `αρχή or `αρχαι~ος, which would explain the ch. 19

                    The name Sarmatae Argaragantes (Argarag-Antes) remains to be discussed in this connection. According to Amm. 17, 13, 4 (quoted above on p. 140) the Sarmatae Limigantes and Argaragantes lived along the river Parthiscus (Theiss), which is not far from Lower Moesia and Pannonia, occupied by the Sadagarii of Jordanes. The variants of the name Argaragantes in the MSS. of Hieron. Chron. are: ardaragantes B, arcaragantes P, argaragantes (argarag i. Ras.) N. The etymology given by Vernadsky 20 for the first part of the name is based on a form Acaragantes which Helm, the most recent editor of the Chronicle of Hieronymus, has not even included in his critical apparatus. Since it is quite evident that the beginning of the name has been corrupted, the variant ardaragantes might perhaps be emended to *Sadagar-Antes. Were it possible to establish this emendation by further evidence, the free Sar­matians, who ruled over the Slavonic Limig-Antes would be connected by name with the Sadagarii - Satarchae, who could then be regarded as rem­nants of the Royal Scythians. As for the Satarchae of Callistratus, this hypo­thesis was even suggested by their geographical position.

                    1 DA III, 51.
                    2 Minns, Scythians and Greeks p. 127 thinks that »the Scythae Satarchae in the Crimean steppe may be either relics of Scyths or a Sarmatian tribe»;
                    Werner (AGAR p. 139, 4) regards the Satarchae as Sarmatians, but v. Barloewen (ib. p. 61, 9) suggests that the Spali were a Hunnic tribe.
                    For the Satarchae see also:
                    Weissbach, RE II A, 60; Kiessling, RE VIII, 1150; FGrH, commentary on no. 433;
                    Rostovtzeff, Skythien und der Bosporus I, 10 ff., 45, 64 (n. 1), 87 (n. 1);
                    Heeren, De chorographia pp. 84 f.
                    3 In Plin. nat. 4, 85 the MSS. read sataucis ED saraucis R, which Müllenhoff loc. cit. (n. 1) corrected to Satarcis (abl.): iugum ipsum Scythotauri tenent; cluduntur ab occidente Cherroneso Nea, ab ortu Scythis Satarcis.
                    4 Getica p. 7 n. 16.
                    5 Die Deutschen p. 709.
                    6 'Osetinskij jazyk i fol'klor I, 163, 179; Vasmer, Die Iranier p. 49 also mentions this name, but he does not give it any etymology; as he does not know the variant σαδάγαρες, he separates it from Sadagarii, which he explains as 'inhabitants of the hundred mountains' ('Bewohner der 100 Berge'), = satagairya.
                    7 Die Deutschen p. 703.
                    8 Ptol. Geog. vol. I: 1, 430.
                    9 Hermes 16, 1881, 614.
                    10 RE Suppl. X, 767.
                    11 For the sources see Weissbach, RE I A, 1736 f. and Herrmann, ibid. 1737 ff.
                    12 The variants have been taken from the critical apparatus of C. Hude.
                    13 Weissbach and Herrmann, loc. cit.; Kent, Old Persian p. 173.
                    14 Getica p. 7 nn. 16, 18.
                    15 Loc. cit.
                    16 Altiranisches Wörterbuch p. 207.
                    17 For this name see p. 123 above.
                    18 Satarchae . . . demersis in humum sedibus, specus aut suffossa habitant.
                    19 For similar explanations of other names see Vasmer, Die Iranier pp. 7, 31.
                    20 The Origins of Russia p. 70, quoted on p. 140 n. 3 above.


                    σαγάδαρες (σαδάγαρεσ A)
                    Julian, Letter XL (this must be it)
                    http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/208/2080113.htm
                    Dubious!
                    'For lo! every tribe of barbarians to the shores of ocean has come to lay its gifts before my feet. So too the Sagadares who dwell beyond the Danube, wondrous with their bright tattooing, and hardly like human beings, so wild and strange are they, now grovel at my feet, and pledge themselves to obey all the behests my sovereignty imposes on them.'

                    Jordanes
                    http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66855

                    So Satarchae, Sadagarii, Sagartioi, Sargetae and more are just several names for the same people. Are there more?

                    It seems Pekkanen derives all the various forms of the names of this Iranian upper layer / nomadic people, descendants of the Royal Scythians, from *(a)sagart-.
                    Now this is just too tempting:

                    *asagart- -> Ásgarð-

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asgard
                    with the relevant quotes:
                    http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Heimskringla/Ynglinga_Saga#Of_the_People_of_Asia.
                    'Of the People of Asia.
                    The country east of the Tanaquisl in Asia was called Asaland, or Asaheim, and the chief city in that land was called Asgaard. In that city was a chief called Odin, and it was a great place for sacrifice. It was the custom there that twelve temple priests should both direct the sacrifices, and also judge the people. They were called Diar, or Drotner, and all the people served and obeyed them. Odin was a great and very far-travelled warrior, who conquered many kingdoms, and so successful was he that in every battle the victory was on his side. It was the belief of his people that victory belonged to him in every battle. It was his custom when he sent his men into battle, or on any expedition, that he first laid his hand upon their heads, and called down a blessing upon them; and then they believed their undertaking would be successful. His people also were accustomed, whenever they fell into danger by land or sea, to call upon his name; and they thought that always they got comfort and aid by it, for where he was they thought help was near. Often he went away so far that he passed many seasons on his journeys.'

                    I can't see anything in that description that would be improbable for a ruler of an Iranian upper layer / nomadic people.

                    I'll attempt an etymology myself:

                    Snorri calls his people men of Asia.
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia#Etymology
                    'The word Asia originated from the Greek word `ασία first attributed to Herodotus (about 440 BC) in reference to Anatolia or - in describing the Persian Wars - to the Persian Empire, in contrast to Greece and Egypt. Herodotus comments that he is puzzled as to why three women's names are used to describe one enormous and substantial land mass (Europa, Asia, and Libya, referring to Africa), stating that most Greeks assumed that Asia was named after the wife of Prometheus (i.e. Hesione), but that the Lydians say it was named after Asias, son of Cotys, who passed the name on to a tribe in Sardis. Even before Herodotus, Homer knew of two figures in the Trojan War named Asios; and elsewhere he describes a marsh as ασιος (Iliad 2, 461). In Greek mythology, "Asia" (`ασία) or "Asie" (`ασίη) was the name of a Nymph or Titan goddess of Lydia.[8]'
                    ...
                    Alternatively, the etymology of the term may be from the Akkadian word (w)aşû(m), which means 'to go outside' or 'to ascend', referring to the direction of the sun at sunrise in the Middle East and also likely connected with the Phoenician word asa meaning east. This may be contrasted to a similar etymology proposed for Europe, as being from Akkadian ere:bu(m) 'to enter' or 'set' (of the sun).

                    T.R. Reid supports this alternative etymology, noting that the ancient Greek name must have derived from asu, meaning 'east' in Assyrian (ereb for Europe meaning 'west').[6] The ideas of Occidental (form Latin Occidens 'setting') and Oriental (from Latin Oriens for 'rising') are also European invention, synonymous with Western and Eastern.[6] Reid further emphasizes that it explains the Western point of view of placing all the peoples and cultures of Asia into a single classification, almost as if there were a need for setting the distinction between Western and Eastern civilizations on the Eurasian continent.
                    ...
                    However, this etymology is considered doubtful, because it does not explain how the term "Asia" first came to be associated with Anatolia, which is west of the Semitic-speaking areas, unless they refer to the viewpoint of a Phoenician sailor sailing through the straits between the Mediterranean Sea and the Black Sea.'

                    de Vries
                    'austr - 2 'east',
                    Icel. austur, Faroe eystur, Norw. aust(er), OSw. oster, Sw. östr, ODa. ostær, Da. øst(er).
                    - > lp. austa (Qvigstad 95);
                    -> ne. ON. Owston, Austwick (Mawer 3).
                    - OE easter, eastre "easter"), OFr. ōstr, OS OHG ōstar,
                    cf. Got. Austro-gothi, Ostrogothae 'East Goths'.
                    - Lat. aurora 'dawn', auster 'south wind',
                    Gr. α`ύριον 'morning', Hom. `ηώς 'dawn',
                    Sanskrit uşās 'dawn', ucchati 'it dawns',
                    Lit. au~šta 'it dawns', aušrà f. "dawn",
                    Latv. austrs 'east wind', austrums m. 'east' (IEW 86-7). '

                    from *aNs- -> *aus-?

                    But consider also
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wusun
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asii
                    by some cosidered identical.

                    The original form of the toponym/ethnonym, might thus be *aNsaN-gart- "east fort/court".
                    Perhaps *aNsaN-gart -> *asaŋart- -> *samart- -> Sarmat-, with folk-etymological side-form (from sauro- "lizard", ommat- "eye") Sauromat- ?
                    cf. the nasal of
                    Avestan ušå:, acc. ušåŋhəm, gen. ušaŋhō "dawn" (Pokorny);
                    and note also aug- "shine"; see' ibd., best explained (I think) from *aN- ->
                    *aŋ- -> *aNg- -> *aug-, the above root as an s-stem *aN-s- -> *aus-
                    If so, the Iranian asan- 'stone' + *garta- 'cave' "Land of Stone-Cave Dwellers" would be a learned Iranian false etymology which was then then transferred to Greek as τρωγλοδύται, τρωγοδύται "cave dwellers" for the *aNsaN-gartai.. BTW Pekkanen gives no reason to separate the Asagartai from the rest so I think I won't.


                    If this was the Sindic (ie. Indic) name, there might have beeen a corresponding Iranian one with h- for s-.
                    Eg. *aNsaN-gart -> *saŋart- -> *hawart- -> Horwat-, ie Croats/Charudes
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croats
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charudes
                    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/59262

                    Or how about Sarmat- -> Harmat-?
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garmash
                    Also as family name, Harmatta?

                    Pliny 6, 22
                    'alii influxisse eo Scythas Auchetas, Atherneos, Asampatas, ab iis Tanaitas et Napaeos viritim deletos. aliqui flumen Ocharium labi per Canticos et Sapaeos, Tanain vero transisse *Satharcheos Herticheos*, Spondolicos, Syn­luetas, Anasos, Issos, Cataeetas, Tagoras, Caronos, Neripos, Agandaeos, Meandaraeos, *Satharcheos Spalaeοs* (spaleos R);'
                    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0137:book=6:chapter=7&highlight=caroni (emended!)
                    [Some writers say that the Auchetæ, the Athernei, and the Asampatæ, Scythian tribes, have made inroads upon this territory, and have destroyed the Tanaitæ and the Inapæi to a man. Others again represent the river Ocharius as running through the Cantici and the Sapæi, and the Tanais as passing through the territories of the *Sarcharcei Herticei*, the Spondolici, the Synhietæ, the Anasi, the Issi, the Catetæ, the Tagoræ, the Caroni, the Neripi, the Agandei, the Mandarei, *Satarchei Spalei*.]

                    The Sarcharcei Herticei and the Satarchei Spalei must be related somehow.
                    As for Spalei, that was connected already by Mommsen to the Slavic spolin/ispolin "a type of giant" and by Kiessling as Greek σπηλαίοι 'cave-dwellers' (presumably then the prefixed i- is from the Greek definite article nom.pl. ο´ι, modern pronounciation i, thus pl. (ο´ι) σπηλαίοι -> (i)spole, "(the) cave-dwellers"). This would then be the same learned etymology, this time transferred to Greek. I can't see how Pekkanen can reject the Greek origin of this Slavic word.


                    To stay in the terminology used by Pekkanen, I think the Croats/Charudes were the agricultural δουλοι of the Sueui, which is why Arivovistus sent for them after he could no longer rely on provisions from his former Gailish allies. Ariovistus' battle line in the battle of the Vosges
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vosges_%2858_BC%29
                    was, in that order: Harudes, Marcomanni, Tribocci, Vangiones, Nemetes, Sedusii, Suevi (DBG 1, 51)
                    http://www.forumromanum.org/literature/caesar/gallic_e1.html
                    and I would imagine that that left wing which Caesar considered least strong (DBG 1, 52) was that of the Harudes; note, BTW, that Ariovistus has to surround his troops with chariots and wagons in order to ensure that his troops don't defect.

                    Note also that Caesar, in spite of his stated policy of driving all the Germani out of Gaul allows the
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribocci
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vangiones
                    and
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemetes
                    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58311
                    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58318
                    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64259
                    to stay in Alsace
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace
                    and settle there, apparently only Charudes,
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harudes
                    Marcomanni,
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcomanni
                    Sedusii and Ariovistus' own Suevi
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suevi
                    he deems so intransigent that they will have to go. The Marcomanni we hear about later being active in Bohemia. As for the Sedusii, I think they are the Sidones (Ptolemy)/Sithones(Tacitus), identified by Pekkanen as Bastarnae, but I'll get back to that.



                    Speaking of those tribes, BTW, in particular of the Nemetes:

                    Vernadsky: The Origins of Russia p. 24
                    as quoted in
                    Pekkanen: The Ethnic Origin of the δουλοσπόροι p. 140, n. 3
                    p. 24 'When an agricultural tribe was conquered by a pastoral tribe, it had to till land for the benefit of the conquerors. Of this pattern were the relations of an 'outer' Sarmatian tribe, Acaragantes (Acarag-Antes) and a Slavic tribe, Limigantes (Limig-Antes), both residing in the fourth century of our era in the basin of the middle Danube River';
                    p. 70 'In Ossetic æqæræg means 'voiceless', and læmæg 'weak', 'meek'. The Limig-Antes were obviously Slavs . . . The name Læmæg, survives in that of the Lemki (singular Lemak), a tribe in the Carpathian Ukraine. The Acarag-Antes were Iranians.'
                    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66941 and the rest of the thread
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemki


                    Most authorities derive Slavic nemec "German" from nemyj "mute"; I disagree
                    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58311
                    and the following


                    Paul Wexler
                    Explorations in Judeo-Slavic Linguistics
                    chapter
                    6 Recovering Judeo-Slavic and early West Slavic components from Yiddish and Hebrew
                    6. 1 Probable Judeo-West Slavicisms in Yiddish and Hebrew
                    p. 160
                    6.13 GHe nmc. GHe nmc/ + nemec 'German' is attested in a number of Hebrew sources, but is unknown in contemporary Yiddish dialects, except as a family name. The earliest Hebrew attestation, `rc nmc/ + `εrec nemec 'land of the Germans' appears in the letter written by the Khazar King Joseph to H.asdaj ibn Šaprūţ, the representative of the Caliph of Córdoba in the late 10th century.45 Brann and others gloss the expression as 'land of the Nemetes', from the Celtic (and later Latin) name for 'Speyer', e.g. Lat Nemetensis civitas, Nemeta ~ -e ~ -is ~ -um, Nemidone, etc.46 The translation was amended by Avneri to 'land of the German' in his notes to the second edition of Brann, Elbogen, et al., without men­tioning that the basis for the change was the Slavic term for 'German', e.g. So Němc < němy 'mute', i.e. 'one who cannot speak Slavic'.47 Two Hebrew texts composed by authors from Speyer (dated Köln 1382, and possibly the mid-15th century respectively) contain a toponym spelled l` dvr, which Brann, Jakobsohn and Rosenthal read as + lo dāvār 'no word' - and interpreted as a Jewish name for Speyer.48 If this reading is correct, it would show that Rhineland Jews in the 14th-15th centuries understood the connection between So Němc 'German' and němy 'mute'.49 It is, nevertheless, surprising that Jews in Speyer-a town so distant from Polabian and Sorbian speech territory-would have had a knowledge of some Slavic terms (though not necessarily fluency in a Slavic language); though Speyer was an important Jewish center in the Middle Ages and may have attracted Slavic Jews. These facts give us a basis for assuming that knowledge of Slavic extended much further to the west among German Jews than among Germans.50

                    45 The messenger's name was Ja´aqov ben Eliεzer Nεmεc (see Modelski 1910:16, 109; Šiper 1926a:14; Kokovcov 1932:72, fn. 5).
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasdai_Ibn_Shaprut
                    46 Brann, Jakobsohn, et al. 1:1934:326, 346, fn. 1; Elbogen 1934:XVII; Jakobson 1957:45; Jakobson and Halle 1964:171-172. The oldest attestation of the root is Gk Nemitzoi 'Germans' in the De ceremoniis aulae byzantinae of Constantine Porphyrogenitus (10th century) (2, 398; reprinted in Migne 112:1857).
                    47 1963:541. The source of GHe nmc could, of course, be any Slavic language.
                    48 1934:346, fn. 1. Gross proposes alternatively that He l` dvr should be read as + lo dvar, a Biblical toponym (e.g. 2 Samuel 17:27) that was assigned, on phonetic grounds, to Y loter 'Lorraine and neighboring Rhineland' ( ~ G Lothringen 'Lorraine') (1897:296-297). Jewish toponyms from the Slavic lands have yet to be collected and ana­lyzed with the thoroughness that characterizes Gross's treatment of French Jewish toponyms (1897).
                    49 The word is not cited at all by Kupfer and Lewicki 1956. A second connection be­tween the Jews and Speyer is perhaps Y šapiro ~ -a, spiro fam, unless these names are to be derived from JAram šāppīr 'excellent, handsome' (see Unbegaun 1972:348). On the use of medieval He kna´an 'Canaan' in the meaning 'Germany' in addition to 'Slav­dom'-see P. Rieger 1937. On the use of MedHe `aškənaz to denote Germanic and Slavic groups, see Modelski 1940:84ff; P. Rieger 1936; Lewicki 1960 and section 1, fn. 9 above.
                    50 Additional evidence of a Judeo-Slavic presence in the Rhineland may be found in GHe krzn`/ + krazna fa (Speyer 1384), if this is related to USo krasna, Cz krásná 'beautiful; red'. This etymon is compelling since there is a German Yiddish translation equivalent, e.g. (He) šnljn/ + šenlin fa (Speyer 1407), EY šejndl (dim) (see Kober 1944:207, 209). See also the presence of West Slavic glosses in the Hebrew writings of the German and French Jews, though this could be due to contact on the written level. The Slavic term for 'Ger­mans' also appears as Balkan Jud nemci 'Austrians' (Bunis 1980), but through an indirect chain of transmission, i.e. < Ottoman Tu nemçe 'Austria' < Ar nimsā < MGk Nemitzoi (?) vs. Se Nemci 'German' pl, Bucharest Jud nemci 'ib. ' < Rum Neamţ sg (Sala 1971:61, 111). The root has both meanings in Turkish. On the possibility of a Slavic contribution to the creation of new German "tribes" in Western as well as in Eastern Germany, see Bosl 1970:69.

                    If true, the Rhineland Jews would have arrived there with Ariovistus' campaign, with the Nemetes (and Vangiones and Triboci) that Caesar did not evict to the other side of the Rhine, like he did the Suebi, Harudes and Sedusii
                    That would not be incompatible with a distribution at the time similar to this
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Verbreitung_der_Juden_im_deutschen_Reich.jpg

                    Two more Slavicisms in Western Yiddish (pp. 159-160):
                    '6.11 GY bok. The Slavic term for 'God' is attested in a Bavarian Yid­dish manuscript from 1580, in reference to Muhammad and Jupiter. 34 The etymon could be LSo bog, OCz bóh (ModCz bůh [bux]). The term is not attested in German dialects; as a mocking term for Christ, Bock ap­pears in an anti-Semitic tractate written by a converted Jew from Worms (1712).35
                    34 Reutlingen 1580 (cited by Pauker 1959:157; M. Weinreich 3:1973:207, 283). I follow here Pauker's transliteration.
                    35 See Schudt 1714, part 2, book 6, chapter 33, 249-citing a work by Christoph Wallich, Die Meyerische Synagoga (n.p. 1712), where Bock is glossed as Gott 'God'. The fact that the term is glossed proves that this is not G Bock, Y bok 'ram'.

                    6.12 WY nebiç ~ EY nebex. This term serves as an interjection or noun meaning 'poor, unfortunate (person)'.36 There are also derivatives (in Eastern Yiddish only?) such as nebexdik 'wretched', nebexl 'wretch, helpless person'. The base form is well known in Western Yiddish dialects far to the west of the German-Slavic language border, see e.g. Alsatian Y newich,37 GY nebiç 'poor thing'.38 The earliest dated attesta­tion of the Slavicism is from a German Yiddish text of the early 16th century.39 From Western Yiddish, the term has spread to German and Dutch slang, e.g. G slg nebbich (1822),40 Du slg nebbis(ch) 'nothing, naught; lost', aggenebbisj, o- (<?ach 'oh').41 The extreme westward diffu­sion of the term suggests that we are dealing with an early loan from a West Slavic language, possibly from USo njeboh 'deceased' or OCz nebohý 'deceased'; ModCz 'unfortunate, poor'.42 Yiddish scholars traditionally regard Judeo-Czech as the source of the term in Yiddish,43 but the presence of the Slavicism in dialects of Western Yiddish spoken in non-Slavicized areas makes a Sorbian (or even Polabian) origin particularly attractive. The case for a specifically Judeo-West Slavic source could be made on the grounds that the form nebohý is not used in Czech as a noun (see rather Cz nebožák, ubožák) or as an interjection.44
                    36 See the expression dos mejdl nebex 'the poor girl' vs. the customary order of adjective before noun, e.g. synonymous dos umgliklexes mejdl.
                    37 Pfrimmer 1959:369.
                    38 Lowenstein 1969:18. See LCAAJ, #228002.
                    39 Jofe 1965:430. The text was composed by Elia Baxur, a native of Germany who worked in Northern Italy. For early 17th century attestation from Prague Yiddish, see Jofe 1927:133. The term is also used in a manuscript composed by Manaxem Oldendorf (preserved at Cambridge University), who lived in 1504 in Mestre, near Venice (see Jofe 1927:133; M. Weinreich 1927:23-25). Fuks cites the term in a text which may have been written in the late 15th century (1:1965:7, fn. 1).
                    40 Wolf 1956, #3827.
                    41 Van Bolhuis n.d.; Beem 1967:83; Endt 1982. The compound is unknown in Dutch Yiddish.
                    42 If the Western Yiddish evidence had been lacking, we would have been obliged to consider non-West Slavic cognates as well, e.g. Uk neboh [-x], neboha 'poor devil'. The possibility of westward diffusion from Judeo-Czech to Judeo-Sorbian lands should be ex­plored in the broad context of Czech linguistic influence on Sorbian. Unfortunately, I cannot determine the approximate date of the semantic shift in Czech from 'deceased' io 'unfortunate, poor'.
                    43 M. Weinreich 2:1973:201-202; 3:72. For a summary of the Slavic and non-Slavic etymologies that have been proposed, sec Fuks 1:1965:7, fn. 1.

                    So the Acarag-Antes, the voiceless, mute Antes, were German Antes, then. It's tempting to connect the Limig-Antes with the Lemovii.
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemovii

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antes_%28people%29

                    As for the name of the Antes:
                    Pekkanen
                    The Ethnic Origin of the δουλοσπόροι
                    pp. 124 - 133
                    'As the whole tradition of the degenerate Scythians began with Herodotus' account in 4, 1-4, there is reason to give these passages special attention, for not only the origin of the Bastard-Scythians but also that of the Sclaveni and Antes (Antae) seems to be closely connected with this tradition.
                    HERODOTUS 4, 1-4
                    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66953

                    According to Herodotus, the expedition of the Scythians to Asia, during which the Bastard-Scythians were born, took place during the reign of Cya­xares and lasted for twenty-eight years.1 The chronological difficulties con­nected with it have recently been discussed in detail by von Fritz, who arrives at the conclusion that in reality the first Scythian attacks on the Medes took place prior to Cyaxares (633-593 B.C.) and their return to Europe already began circa 630 B.C.2

                    Herodotus' account of the war between the Scythians and the slave-born class has been interpreted as historical in its broad outlines.3 It is not clear where the trench (τάφρος), dug out by the sons of the slaves, should be located on a modern map.4 In the actual struggle it did not play any part. Herodotus compares the opponents by whom the Scythians were encountered on return­ing to their country with the Medes, which indicates that their numbers were considerable. It seems to me that Herodotus' account can be interpreted as indicating that a part of the East-European population subject to the Scy­thians had become independent during the protracted absence of the ruling class and was prepared to defend this independence when the Scythians returned to their country.1 As a matter of fact, it is already evident from the words attributed by Herodotus to one of the Scythians, δουλοισι τοι~σι ´ημεχέροισι μαχόμενοι α`υτοί τε κτεινόμενοι `ελάσσονες γινόμεθα κα`ι εκείνους κτείνοντες `ελασσόνων τ`ο λοιπόν `άρξομεν, that this war was in fact already conceived by Herodotus not only as that of the slaves against their masters but also as that between the ruling-class of the country and its subjects. This kind of ambiguity is possible since the word δου~λος in Herodotus means both 'slave' and 'subject'.6

                    M. Rostovtzeff has defined the social structure of the area ruled over by the Scythians as follows: »the Cimmerians were driven out and conquered by the Scythians; the Scythians gave up their sovereignty under the pressure of the Sarmatians; but the main structure of the states successively formed by these tribes was almost the same. A small minority of nomads with a strong and effective military organization ruled over a large majority of conquered peoples and tribes. Some of these tribes were themselves nomads, but most of them were agriculturalists established on the rich plains of South Russia or half-nomadic hunters and bee-keepers in the forests and marshes of Central Russia. The relations between the rulers and the ruled were of the simplest description: the ruled paid their masters a tribute . . . and were probably forced to serve them in their military expeditions. The fact that so many 'Scythians' were sold in the Greek colonies of South Russia and went abroad as slaves . . . seems to bear witness to a free disposal of the conquered popula­tion by the conquerors, to a kind of potential slavery. I must emphasize . . . my conviction that most of the slaves sold to the Greeks under the name of Scythians did not belong to the ruling tribes of Iranian conquerors but to the conquered native pre-Scythian population».7 According to Rostovtzeff, the position of the conquered population was »a kind of potential slavery», the ruled were at the disposal of the rulers. If we agree with him in this, then the δου~λοι, discussed by Herodotus in 4, 1 -4, can be considered as representing the »large majority of conquered peoples and tribes», their Scythian masters being the »small minority of nomads with a strong and effective military organization».

                    The return of the Scythians from Asia took place at the end of the seventh century B.C. Herodotus' description of it dates from the latter half of the fifth century. His account of the war connected with the return of the Scythians cannot be traced in earlier literary records.8 A considerable amount of the information on the Scythians was collected by Herodotus himself on his travels in Scythia, and it has been established that he was in Colchis, Sindica, Exampaeus, and Olbia.9 It may also be assumed with some confidence that he went up the river Borysthenes as far as Gerrhus.10 With regard to the sources of information on the war of the Scythians against their subjects (slaves) we can only conjecture that Herodotus' account of it is based on material collected during these travels.

                    According to the view of Rostovtzeff quoted above, the main structure of the states formed successively by the Cimmerians, the Scythians, and the Sarmatians was almost the same. The ruling minority of nomads was gradu­ally changed, but the large majority of conquered peoples and tribes, most of whom were farmers, remained to a great extent the same. On this assump­tion it is permissible to look for information about the conquered population, represented by the »slave-born» class in Hdt. 4, 1-4, in Herodotus' general account of the Scythians and other literary sources.

                    In 4, 17-20 Herodotus gives the tribes of Scythia in geographical order from west to east, in each case mentioning the tribes known to live farther inland:
                    http://www.greektexts.com/library/Herodotus/Melpomene/eng/91.html

                    17 `απ`ο του~ βορυσθενεϊτέων `εμπορίου . . . πρώτοι καλλιπίδαι νέμονται `εόντες `έλληνες σκύθαι, ´υπ`ερ δ`ε τούτων `άλλο `έθνος ο´ί `αλιζω~νες καλέονται. . . ´υπ`ερ δ`ε `αλιζώνων ο`ικέουσι *σκύθαι `αροτη~ρες*... τούτων δ`ε κατύπερθε ο` κέουσι νευροί. . . ταυ~τα μ`εν παρ`α τ`ον ´ύπανιν ποταμόν `εστι `έθνεα πρ`ος ´εσπέρης του~ βορυσθένεος.
                    [Above the mart of the Borysthenites, ... , the first people who inhabit the land are the Callipedae, a Greco-Scythic race. Next to them, as you go inland, dwell the people called the Alazonians. ... Beyond the Alazonians reside Scythian cultivators, who grow corn, not for their own use, but for sale. Still higher up are the Neuri. ... These are the nations along the course of the river Hypanis, west of the Borysthenes. ]

                    18 `ατ`αρ διαβάντι τ`ον βορυσθένεα `απ`ο θαλάσσης πρω~τον μ`εν ´η ´υλαίη, `απ`ο δ`ε ταύτης `ανω `ιόντι ο`ικέουσι *σκύθαι γεωργοί*. .. ο´υ~τοι `ω~ν ο´ι γεωργο`ι σκύθαι νέμονται τ`ο μεν προς την ηώ `επ`ι τρει~ς ημέρας ´οδου~, κατήκοντες `επ`ι ποταμ`ον τω,~ ο`ύνομα κέεται παντικάπης, τ`ο δ`ε πρ`ος βορέην `άνεμον πλόον `αν`α τ`ον βορυσθένεα ´ημερέων ´ένδεκα· ´η δ`ε κατύπερθε τούτων `έρημός `εοτι `επ`ι πολλόν. μετ`α δ`ε τ`ην `έρημον `ανδροφάγοι ο`ικέουσι, `έθνος `εόν `ίδιον κα`ι ουδαμω~ς σκυθικόν ...
                    [Across the Borysthenes, the first country after you leave the coast is Hylaea (the Woodland). Above this dwell the Scythian farmers, whom the Greeks living near the Hypanis call Borysthenites, while they call themselves Olbiopolites. These farmers extend eastward a distance of three days' journey to a river bearing the name of Panticapes, while northward the country is theirs for eleven days' sail up the course of the Borysthenes. Further inland there is a vast tract which is uninhabited. Above this desolate region dwell the Cannibals, who are a people apart, much unlike the Scythians... ]

                    19 τ`ο δ`ε πρ`ος την `ηω~ τω~ν γεωργών τούτων σκυθέων διαβάντι τ`ον παντικάπην ποταμ`ον *νομάδες* `ήδη *σκύθαι* νέμονται . . . οι δε νομάδες ούτοι τ`ο πρ`ος τ`ην ηώ ´ημερέων τεσσέρων κα`ι δέκα ´οδ`ον νέμονται χώρην κατατείνουσαν `επ`ι ποταμ`ον γέρρον.
                    [Crossing the Panticapes, and proceeding eastward of the farmers, we come upon the nomadic Scythians, who neither plough nor sow. ... They extend towards the east a distance of fourteen' days' journey, occupying a tract which reaches to the river Gerrhus. ]

                    20 πέρην δ`ε του~ γέρρου ταυ~τα δη τ`α καλεύμενα *βασιλήιά* `εστι κα`ι *σκύθαι* o´ι *`άριστοί* τε κα`ι *πλει~στοι* κα`ι το`υς `άλλους νομίζοντες σκύθας δούλους σφετέρους ε`ι~ναι· κατήκουσι δ`ε ο´υ~τοι τ`ο μ`εν πρ`ος μεσαμρίην `ες τ`ην ταυρικήν, τ`ο δ`ε πρ`ος `ηω~ `επί τε τάφρον, τ`ην δ`η ο´ι `εκ τω~ν τυφλω~ν γενόμενοι `ώρυξαν, κα`ι `επ`ι τη~ς λίμνης τη~ς μαιήτιδος τ`ο `εμπόριον τ`ο καλέεται κρημνοί· τ`α δ`ε α`υτω~ν κατηκονσι `επί ποταμ`ον τάναϊν. τ`α δ`ε κατύπερθε προς βορέην `άνεμον τω~ν *βασιληίων σκυθέων* ο`ικέουσι μελάγχλαινοι, `άλλο εθνος κα`ι ο`υ σκυθικόν....
                    [On the opposite side of the Gerrhus is the Royal district, as it is called: here dwells the largest and bravest of the Scythian tribes, which looks upon all the other tribes in the light of slaves. Its country reaches on the south to Taurica, on the east to the trench dug by the sons of the blind slaves, the mart upon the Palus Maeotis, called Cremni (the Cliffs), and in part to the river Tanais. North of the country of the Royal Scythians are the Melanchaeni (Black-Robes), a people of quite a different race from the Scythians. ... ]

                    21 τάναϊν δ`ε ποταμ`ον διαβάντι ο`υκέτι σκυθική ...
                    [When one crosses the Tanais, one is no longer in Scythia;]

                    In this classification Herodotus gives the name σκύθαι to four different groups: σκύθαι `αροτηρες ('the Scythian ploughmen'), σκύθαι γεωργοί ('the Scythian farmers'), νομάδες σκύθαι ('the Nomad Scythians'), βασιλήιοι σκύθαι ('the Royal Scythians'). The last of these groups is also described as σκύθαι o´ι `άριστοί τε κα`ι πλείστοι κα`ι τους `άλλους νομίζοντες σκύθας δούλους σφετέρους ε`ι~ναι (»the best and most numerous of the Scythians, who deem all other Scythians their subjects»). Consequently, according to Herodotus, one of the four Scythian groups was in a ruling position and this group regarded the other as δου~λοι. Apart from in 4, 1-3, the word δου~λος only occurs in Herodotus' account of Scythia in 4, 20, quoted above.11 In my opinion the meaning of the word is the same in both cases. We can translate it as either 'subject' or 'slave'. When Hdt. 4, 1-4 is interpreted in the light of the explanation given in 4, 20, the δου~λοι in 4, 1-4 may be identified with ο´ι `αλλοι σκύθαι, i. e. the Scythians not belong­ing to the Royal Scythians.

                    Now it should be noticed that Herodotus in 4, 2 seems to identify the Scythians who returned from Asia with the Nomads: o`υ γ`αρ `αρόται ε`ισ`ι `αλλ`α νομάδες. One gets the impression that in spite of the difference made between the Royal Scythians and the Nomads in 4, 19-20 he regarded these two groups as identical. When discussing the meaning of the word 'Scythian' (σκύθης) in general, Minns is concerned with this very problem and holds the view that the Nomads and the Royal Scythians may well be the same tribe under different names.12

                    It also seems hard to establish a distinction between the Scythian plough­men and the Scythian farmers. According to Hdt. 4, 17 - 18, the Scythian ploughmen lived between the Alizones and the Neuri along the river Hypanis (the Bug), west of the Borysthenes (the Dnieper). On the left side of the Borysthenes nearest to the sea was the district by the name of Hylaea, north of which the Scythian farmers dwelt. These farming Scythians inhabited a land stretching a three-day journey eastward to a river called Panticapes (not identified), and northward as far as an eleven-day voyage up the Bory­sthenes. The accurate position of these tribes cannot be fixed on a modern map.13 Minns, however, arrived at the conclusion that the Scythian farmers seem to have been continuous with the Scythian ploughmen and very likely identical with them.14

                    If we accept Minns' views about the identity of the Royal Scythians with the Nomads, and the Scythian ploughmen with the farmers, the four Scythian groups in Hdt. 4, 17 - 20 can be reduced to two, σκύθαι βασιλήιοι or νομάδες and σκύθαι `αροτη~ρες or γεωργοί. The former were according to Hdt. 4, 20 rulers, the latter their subjects (δου~λοι).

                    The Scythian ploughmen were bounded by the Neuri in the north (Hdt. 4, 17). For the time being it may be regarded as an established view that the Neuri were among the ancestors of the Balto-Slavic group. There is only a difference of opinion whether they were the still unified Balto-Slavs or repre­sentatives of either the Balts or the Slavs.15 This ambiguity is due to the fact that we cannot accurately determine the extent of the area occupied by the Scythian ploughmen in order to establish the frontier between them and the Neuri. In this discussion I cannot put forward any fresh viewpoint.

                    It is most important for the theme of this work to notice that the Scythian ploughmen and farmers have been classed by many scholars as ancient Slavs.16 Nevertheless, this view has remained more or less hypothetical; Diels in his book Die slavischen Völker (1963) does not even mention such a theory. The archaeological evidence has been considered insufficient and nobody has been able to point to any kind of connection between the Scythians practising agriculture and the Slavs in the literary sources. Yet it seems to me that in the available sources this connection can be established.

                    I came to the conclusion above that in Hdt. 4, 1-3 o´ι δου~λοι should be regarded as representatives of the group of tribes conquered and ruled over by the Scythians;17 on the other hand it was concluded that in Hdt. 4, 17-18 the group of conquered tribes is represented by the σκύθαι `αροτη~ρες - γεωρ­γοί and that the meaning of the word δου~λος must be regarded as the same both in Hdt. 4, 1-3 and in 4, 20.

                    According to the account of Herodotus the δου~λοι, from which the new race sprang, were blind: 4, 2 τους δ`ε δούλους o´ι σκύθαι πάντας τυφλου~σι . . . τούτων μ`εν ε´ίνεκα ´άπαντα τ`ον ``αν λάβωσι ο´ι σκύθαι `εκτυφλου~σι; cf. 4, 20 ο´ι `εκ τω~ν τυφλω~ν γενόμενοι. As far as I know, the last to have dealt with this most extraordinary statement were Diesner,18 O'Neil and Helmbold,19 who accepted the blindness of the slaves as a fact. In my opinion their interpretation is naive and quite impossible if only for the reason that Herodotus stresses the great number of the sons of the slaves and compares them with the Medes: Hdt. 4, 1 . . . ο`υκ `ελάσαων πόνος του~ μηδικου~· ε´υ~ρον γ`αρ `αντιονμένην αφίσι στρατι`ην ο`υκ `ολίγην, More reasonable is the explanation of Stein, which is there­fore quoted in full: »blinde Sklaven sind fur Viehwirtschaft, zumal als Hirten, noch unbrauchbarer als fur Ackerwirtschaft. Wahrscheinlich liegt ein sprach­liches Missverständnis zu Grunde. Die Skythen mochten ihre Sklaven, oder auch die ihnen botmässigen Stämme (zu c. 20, 4), mit einem Namen be­zeichnen, den die Hellenen fälschlich o´ι τυφλοί. . . ubersetzten und ent­sprechend erklärten».20 Stein's standpoint implies that the tribes subject to the domination of the Scythians might have been called by their rulers by a name wrongly translated by the Greeks as ο´ι τυφλοί, and explained in ac­cordance with the translation. It is astonishing that this sound standpoint of Stein's has so far been neglected by scholars. As far as I know, nobody has yet taken the trouble to examine the equivalents of the Greek adjective τυφλός in the Iranian languages and to compare them with the names used for the Slavonic tribes in the Byzantine sources. The equivalent of the Greek τυφλός 'blind' is Sanskrit andhá-, Avestan anda- 'blind', 'dark'.21 From the ambiguous meaning of the Iranian adjective it can be gathered that the Scythians called their subjects by the name 'the Dark', which was translated into Greek as o´ι τυφλοί, 'the Blind', equivalent to the second meaning of the same Iranian word. I am fully convinced that this misinterpretation was due to the same name which appears in the Byzantine sources in the forms `άνται, Antae, Antes, Anti as the generic name for the eastern Slavonic tribes.22

                    The etymology of the name `άνται has until lately been regarded as un­explained.23 On the evidence given above, I connect it with Sanskrit andhá-, Avestan anda- 'blind', 'dark'. The original meaning of the name was 'the Dark', but it could easily be misunderstood as 'the Blind', o´ι τυφλοί. My ex­planation is supported by the fact that the names of colours, especially those of dark and light ones, are very common among the names of historically well-known tribes of Eastern Europe and Asia.24

                    When Herodotus states in 4, 2 το`υς δ`ε δούλους ο´ι σκύθαι . . . τυφλου~σι, »the Scythians blind their slaves», this statement is actually equivalent to το`υς δ`ε δούλους o´ι σκύθαι `άντας καλέουσι, »the Scythians call their sub­jects `άνται (the Dark)» or ο´ι δ`ε δου~λοι τω~ν σκυθέων `άνται ε`ισιν, »the subjects of the Scythians are the `άνται (the Dark)». Since it has been es­tablished that the subjects of the Scythians were also called σκύθαι `αροτη­ρες - γεωργοί, we are led to the conclusion that the name, which in later sources appears in the forms `άνται, Antae, Antes, Anti, was already given in the 7th century B.C. by the Iranian population of South Russia to the tribes ruled over by them. It seems to me that this conclusion provides the literary evidence long sought for the Slavonic origin of the σκύθαι `αροτη~ρες - γεωργοί. On the other hand, it is also evident that the tradition of the δουλο­σπόροι from the very beginning is inseparably connected with the early history of the Slavonic peoples.

                    The account in Hdt. 4, 1-3 of a new race born of the δου~λοι and the Scy­thian women may also be interpreted as indicating that the agricultural po­pulation ruled over by the Scythians was to a great extent mixed with Iranian elements. According to Gimbutas, the lands occupied by the Scythian farmers coincide with the distribution of the so-called 'Chernoleska' culture of the seventh to fifth centuries B.C., which shows continuity with the pre­ceding culture in Podolia and the middle Dnieper basin, known by the names 'Belogrudovka' ('Byelogrudovka') for the Late Bronze Age, 'Komarov' for the Middle Bronze Age, and 'Belopotok' ('Bilyj Potok') for the Early Bronze Age.25 Although Gimbutas connects the Chernoleska culture with the Slavs, she also points to its being strongly influenced by the Scythians. From an archaeological point of view, one might in this case speak about a Slavo-Iranian mixture, in which, however, the Slavonic element dominated. The archaeological interpretation of the culture connected with the Scythian farmers thus seems to tally with the account of Herodotus of the half-Iranian origin of the δουλοσηόροι.

                    In Hdt. 4, 1-4 there is still the most curious fact that Herodotus has in­serted in his account of the return of the Scythians a detailed description of the making of koumiss. The whole of chapter 4, 2 has nothing to do with 4, 1 and 4, 3, and Stein's suggestion that it was a later addition of Herodotus is also supported by How and Wells.26 Nevertheless, since Herodotus expressly says that it was the τυφλοί who were employed in making koumiss, one might perhaps be tempted to infer that making koumiss was characteristic of the group, the name of which was translated with o´ι τυφλοί, i.e. the later Antae. It must, however, be noted that the products of mare's milk were commonly used among the nomadic tribes of South Russia and the custom of making koumiss cannot be limited to any particular national or linguistic community.27

                    Nevertheless, I would like to point out that according to Peter of Dusburg the drinking of mare's milk was a wide-spread custom among the Prussians in ancient times: Cronica terre Prussie 3, 5 (SRP I, 54) Pro potu habent (scil. Prutheni) simplicem aquam et mellicratum seu medonem, et lac equarum, quod lac quon­dam non biberunt, nisi prius sanctificaretur. Alium potum antiquis temporibus non noverunt.28 Alfred the Great's emissary, Wulfstan, tells that »the land of the Aestii is very large and there are many castles in it and in each castle there is a king. . . . And the king, together with the wealthy drinks mare's milk, but the poor drink 'met'. There are many quarrels among them . . .>> 29 It cannot be established for sure whether this custom was inherited from Indo-European times or taken over from the Scythians.30 The latter alternative implies con­tacts between the Balts and the Scythians. The fact that the Sithones of Tacitus seem to be connected with the tradition of the δουλοσπόροι might be considered as historical evidence of this kind of connection. As for the Slavs, in the reports of the Arab writers of the eleventh century a Slavonic country is men­tioned governed by a king who lived on mare's milk.31 The country in question has been interpreted as Croatia, but Dvornik is of the opinion that the state­ment about the king drinking mare's milk, »not a Slavonic diet», should be classed among the facts which »would seem to point to the conclusion that the original Croats and Serbs were of non-Slavonic stock and that they imposed their dominion on Slavonic tribes which ended by absorbing them and adopt­ing only their name».32'

                    1 Hdt. 1, 103. 106; 4, 1.
                    2 Die griechische Geschichtschreibung I (Berlin 1967), 381 ff., 384.
                    3 Kretschmer, RE II A, 940; Minns, Scythians and Greeks p. 84; Rostovtzeff, Iranians and Greeks p. 39; Peisker, Die älteren Beziehungen p. 24; cf. v. Fritz, op. cit. p. 147.
                    4 Cf. How & Wells, A Commentary on Herodotus I, 303 f.; Minns, op. cit. p. 31; DA III, 50; Herrmann, RE IV A, 2258 f.; FGrH, commentary on no. 433.
                    5 Even Kretschmer, loc. cit. is inclined to interpret the story of Herodotus in this manner: »Jedenfalls trafen sie (scil. die Skythen) veränderte Zustände an und mussten erst mit Gewalt sich ihre Rechte wieder erzwingen».
                    6 Powell, A Lexicon to Herodotus s. v.; for the meaning of the word δου~λος cf. also Lencman, Die Sklaverei im mykenischen und homerischen Griechenland pp. 190 f.; Wickert, Gnomon 1967, 597 f.
                    7 Iranians and Greeks p. 211; cf. also Talbot Rice, The Scythians pp. 52 f.
                    8 For the sources of Herodotus see v. Fritz, Die griechische Geschichtschreibung I, 407 ff.
                    9 v. Fritz, op. cit. pp. 129 f.
                    10 v. Fritz, loc. cit.; Minns, Scythians and Greeks p. 29
                    11 See Powell's Lexicon to Herodotus s. v.
                    12 Op. cit. p. 35 »We may take it that Herodotus used the word (scil. 'Scythian') in a nar­row sense to include only the Royal Scyths, possibly together with the Nomads, for it seems hard to establish any clear distinction between them; and in a wide sense to denote all those tribes, whatever their affinities or state of civilisation, that were under the political domina­tion of the Royal Scyths»; cf. ibid. p. 30.
                    13 Cf. Minns, op. cit. p. 31 «Seeing there are such difficulties in identifying the rivers, which must have remained substantially the same, we cannot hope to fix the place of the various Scythian tribes (cc. 17 â€" 20) with any accuracy: we can determine their relative positions but we have no idea of the relative extent of the lands they occupied and only one or two definite statements».
                    14 Op. cit. p. 27 »Georgi who may well be the same as Aroteres . .»; ibid. p. 31 »We cannot even say whether the Georgi and Aroteres may not be the same people traversed and described by different travellers . . . the northern part of the same (scil. the Government of Kherson) and some of Ekaterinoslav and perhaps some of Kiev were occupied by the Aroteres . . . Tra­vellers towards the ENE. from Olbia passed the Scythae Georgi occupying the valley of the lower Dnepr included in a belt three clays journey wide and extending ten or eleven days upstream to about the borders of Ekaterinoslav. Hence they would seem to have been con­tinuous with the Aroteres and very likely identical. That is to say the two names between them represent a congeries of tribes in the same more or less agricultural stage».
                    15 Kiparsky, BL I, 51 »Das erste Volk, dessen Zugehörigkeit zum baltischen Stamme ernst­lich diskutiert werden kann, sind die bei Herodot erwähnten Neurier . . .»; Diels, Die slavischen Völker p. 18 »Von den Stammcn aber, die Herodot nicht Skythen nennt, ist nur der der ,Neuroi' mit einer gewissen Wahrscheinlichkeit von der Wissenschaft den Slaven zugeteilt worden»; Gimbutas, The Balts p. 101 arrives at the conclusion that »it is . . highly probable that Hero­dotus' Neuri were eastern Balts . .»; eadem, Bronze Age Cultures p. 443 »From all what we hear from Herodotus and from what we know from linguistics and archaeology, it can be concluded lhat the Neuri are the earliest Balts known to written history»; Dittrich, JGO 9, 1961, 498; Trautmann, Die slav. Völker und Sprachen p. 21; Minns, Scythians and Greeks p. 102; DA III, 124; Dvornik, The Slavs pp. 13, 53; Niederle, Manuel de l'antiquité slave I, 174; Falkenhahn, ZfS I: 2, 1956, 56; Brauer, Slavische Sprachwissenschaft I, 30; Schwarz, Sudostforschungen 15, 1956, 86; Herrmann, RE XVII, 160; Arumaa, Urslavische Grammatik I, 46 (32).
                    16 Gimbutas, The Balts p. 99 »There can be no other explanation than that the 'Scythian farmers' and their predecessors were the ancient Slavs»; eadem, Bronze Age Cultures p. 443; Dvornik, op. cit. p. 13 »It might also be that the 'Scythian Plowmen', whom he (scil. Hero­dotus) distinguishes from other Scythians, were also partly Slavs»; Šafařík, Slawische Alterthümer I, 185 »auch im skythischen Reiche selbst waren die sogenannten ackerbauenden Skythen am Dniepr und im heutigen Podolien sicherlich kein skythisches, sondern ein slawisches, von den Skythen unterjochtes Volk, unter welchen die Sieger als Herren und Adel lebten»; ibid. p. 271 »Sie (scil. die ackcrbautreibenden Skythen) waren ohne Zweifel nicht skythischer sondern slawischer Herkunft. . . . Wahrscheinlich hatten die eigentlichcn Skythen sie unterworfen und geknechtet, und hielten sich dann als Adel unter ihnen auf»; Niederle, Manuel de l'antiquité slave I, 27 f. »Je n'hesite pas a me declarer convaincu que, parmi les voisins septentrionaux des Scythes mentionnés par Hérodote, non seulement les Neuriens, en Volynic et dans le pays de Kiev, et probablement aussi les Boudines, entre le Dnieper et le Don, mais encore les Scythes dits laboureurs (σκύθαι `αροτη~ρες, γεωργοί) situés par Hérodote au nord des steppes proprement dites entre le Bug superieur et le Dnieper moyen, étaient sans doute des Slaves ayant subi l'influence de la civilisation gréco-scythe ainsi que le prouvent nombre de tumuli. . des gouvernements de Kiev et de Poltava»; cf. ibid. p. 173; Falkenhahn, loc. cit.; Treimer, »Die Nachrichten Herodots» p. 417; cf. Kiparsky, NPhM 48, 1947, 40 ff.; Dittrich, loc. cit.
                    17 See p. 126 above.
                    18 Wissenschqftliche Zeitschrift der Martin-Luther Universität Halleâ€"Wittenberg, Ges.-Sprachw. VIII 4/5, 1959, 687-688.
                    19 CPh 47, 1952, 159 f.
                    20 Herodotus vol. II: 2, 2; cf. also How & Wells, A Commentary on Herodotus I, 303 »The idea that the slaves were blind may be due to a mistaken etymology for some Scythian word for 'slave'».
                    21 Buck, A Dictionary of Selected Synonyms 4. 97; Boisacq, Dictionnaire étymologique s. v. τυφλός; Pokorny, Indogerm. etymol. Wörterbuch I, 41.
                    22 The sources on the Antae are enumerated in Å afařík, Slawische Alterthümer II, 19â€"22: Vernadsky, JAOS 59, 1939, 56 â€" 57; cf. idem, The Origins of Russia p. 24.
                    23 Kiparsky, Russische historische Grammatik I, 13 »Zwar ist der Name Antes, Antae immer noch nicht gedeutet worden und er verschwindet auch spurlos nach dem 7. Jh., man verbindet ihn jedoch vor allem auf Grund prähistorischer Funde mit den seit dem 5. Jh. n. Chr. sich nord­wärts ausbreitenden Slaven, den Vorfahren der späteren Ostslaven»; cf. Vernadsky, JAOS 59, 1939, 63; Stender-Petersen, Slavisch-germanische Lehnwortkunde pp. 180 f.
                    24 Ludat, Saeculum 4, 1953, 138 ff. and esp. 142; cf, also Vasmer, REW III, 326 s. v. černyj.
                    25 The Balts p. 99; eadem, Bronze Age Cultures pp. 440, 443.
                    26 A Commentary on Herodotus I, 303.
                    27 Aalto, Reşid Rahmeti Arat Için p. 1; Hirt, Die Indogermanen I, 301; Schrader, Reallexikon pp. 541 f.
                    28 Cf. also Nesselmann, Thesaurus linguae Prussicae s. v. aswinan.
                    29 The translation is that of Spekke, Balts and Slavs p. 71.
                    30 Schrader, loc. cit.
                    31 Dvornik, The Making of Central and Eastern Europe pp. 271, 373.
                    32 Op. cit. p. 273.

                    Against Pekkanen's stated belief that Herodot's passage cannot be true I think I'll quote what Timothy Taylor had to say about another historian's disbelief in the same passage:
                    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66820
                    'It is as if De Selincourt himself, unable to comprehend what is really being described, has sought to minimize it'.
                    It seems both de Selincourt and Pekkanen are arguing from a belief that humans won't treat each other that way. So many empty eye sockets! Oh yes, they will. Also, wrt. the objection that there could not have been a large enough number of blind slaves to produce offspring enough to match the size of the army of the Medes:
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churning
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumyss
                    is labor-intensive, and must furthermore have been done on a large scale, considering the size of some Scythian cities like
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelonus
                    Cf. also the words of Ammianus Marcellinus, 17, 12, 18
                    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
                  • Torsten
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagartians Torsten
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 8, 2011
                    • gknysh
                      ... ****GK: I agree that the Satarchae are Royal Scythians (in part at least, viz., those called Spali (= Pali without the prefix). But I don t accept
                      Message 10 of 12 , May 2, 2011
                        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Tuomo Pekkanen
                        > The Ethnic Origins of the δουλοσποροι
                        > pp 144-149
                        >
                        > 'THE SATARCHAE - SADAGARII

                        ****GK: I agree that the Satarchae are "Royal Scythians" (in part at least, viz., those called "Spali" (= "Pali" without the prefix). But I don't accept the idea that Satarchae= Sadagarii. And I don't think that Satarchae is the same as Herodotus' Sagartioi. I'm still looking for a correct etymology of "Satarchae". I suppose that Sat- + archai(ioi) would be too simplistic not to say dilettantic... What would Sat- stand for? Or would it be Sata- archioi where Sata is the plural of Sa- which stands for (k)Sai = 'kings' = "the old kings" i.e. the Royal Scythians (Pali) who switched their main abode to Central Asia near 300 BCE (that seems quite certain), and returned to their classical haunts in the first part of the 2nd c. BCE? I wonder.

                        Some additional source material:

                        Ptolemy mentions a town in the Crimea named "Satarche" (G. III,6).
                        Mordvintseva notes in her article that her colleague Y. Zajcev has found an inscription of the 2nd c. BCE in Skilur's capital Neapolis, referring to the "Satarchai".
                        Pomponius Mela notes them as indifferent to gold and money.
                        And Solinus (Pliny's editor) adds them to the list of peoples who resided on the Iaxartes shortly after 300 BCE..

                        I would definitely like to know the difference between the Satarchei Spalei and the Satarchei Hernichei (Pliny)*****
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