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Off Topic: window, hobo (was: Re: Re: Lislakh

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  • And Rosta
    [Not really a proper topic for this list, but since it has come up, here s a response:] ... There are decent arguments for saying that the second syll in
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 4, 2010
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      [Not really a proper topic for this list, but since it has come up, here's a response:]

      Brian M. Scott, On 04/12/2010 06:19:
      > johnvertical@... <mailto:johnvertical%40hotmail.com> wrote:
      >
      > > In English, for example, you normally only find final
      > > unstress'd syllables ending in consonants or -i ("lucky",
      > > "doggie"), or -o ("hobo", "window"). However, that doesn't
      > > stop words like "lava", "voodoo", "cafe" existing, and
      > > having existed for centuries.
      >
      > <Hobo>, <window>, <voodoo>, and <cafe> do not end in
      > unstressed syllables. In the first three the final syllable
      > has secondary stress; in the last it has primary stress for
      > me and many others and secondary stress for some. <Lava>
      > does end in an unstressed syllable, but final unstressed /ǝ/
      > is perfectly acceptable. Indeed, when the final syllable of
      > <window> loses secondary stress, as it does for some
      > speakers at least in informal speech, it's generally reduced
      > to /-dǝ/.

      There are decent arguments for saying that the second syll in _window_, but not _hobo_, is weak/unstressed, to be analysed as /ǝw/. One argument is that prevocalically the syllabic /ǝ/ can elide, leaving [w], as can generally happen with stem-final /ǝC/: e.g. _following_ can be disyllabic, [fQlwIN]. A further argument is that the generalization can then be maintained that the 'nativest' polysyllabic morphemes can't end in a stressed syllable (i.e. the (IMO, true) generalization that John Vertical was seeking to capture). And a still further argument is that, as you mention, in some dialects, /ǝw/ (but not the GOAT vowel found in the last syll of _hobo_) is, or alternates with, /ǝ(r)/, which could be characterized as /w/-dropping.

      Analogous to the contrast in the final syllables of _hobo_:_window_ is that in _Carrhae_:_carry_, the former ending in the FLEECE vowel and the latter in the so-called happY vowel, which I would suggest is /ǝj/ (= /ǝy/). _Carrhae and_ is three syllables, but _carry and_ may through elision be two, [kaRjǝn]. In some accents, happY is always realized differently from FLEECE, e.g. as [I] or [E], while in some others, they have the same [i]-like realization in most environments but happY is [I] before a suffix (e.g. _Carrhae's_ [-iz], _carries, Carrie's_ [-Iz]).

      Excuse the digression, but I thought it worth piping up to argue that John V was essentially correct on the point on which he had ostensibly been corrected.

      Returning to lurk mode now...

      --And.
    • Richard Wordingham
      ... [I ve taken the liberty of transliterating Unicode to Latin-1.] Actually, I suspect that the Wiktionary roots were originally selected on the basis of
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 5, 2010
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "piervantrink" <piervantrink@...> wrote:
        > 9/Many supoosed proto ie roots are supported by examples of very few Indo-European branches and sometimes by only 1 ie branche,or from only 1-2 branch with very unbelievable sound changes forgetting the innovation,loans and chance propabilities.

        > As an exemple,the supposed pie *h2ég^H-r root has only 2 given examples both in the same Indo-Iranian branch(Avestan and Sanskrit)
        > *h2ég^H-r/n.;- day Skr. ahar, Av. azan
        [I've taken the liberty of transliterating Unicode to Latin-1.]

        Actually, I suspect that the Wiktionary roots were originally selected on the basis of being evidenced in three or more branches. I suspect the less well-witnessed ones may have been added later - but this is Wiktionary issue.

        There are two entries that cite reflexes from only one branch:

        *gHreh1 Eng green, grow, grass

        This one needs some investigation. There may be connections with some similar roots, though it is discouraging that neither Pokorny nor the 'Concise Dictionary of English Etymology' (Onions) offer a PIE root for these words.

        *h2ég^H-r./n.- Skr ahar 'day'.

        This is one of those curious cases where it looks as though an initial consonant has gone missing in one (or several) of the branches. Pokorny connects this with the Germanic word (English day and its cognates, while others derive day from the root *dHegHW. I'm afraid I don't know on what basis the initial was reconstructed as h2 rather than h1 or h3.

        Being very strict, not counting Baltic and Slavonic as two branches towards the threshold of three, I reckon the following as being based on only two branches:

        *pneu- Gk pneuma, Eng fnēosan, OHG fnehan etc.

        *bHerg^H- OCS bre^ga~ OE byrgan (surely *gH !)

        *bHred- Alb. bredh, Lith bristi, Russ. bresti, Thrac. Bredai

        *túh1s-ont- OE þusend, OCS tyso~s^ti (Tocharian uses a different root extension.)

        *kal- Skt. kalya-, Gk kállos 'handsome'

        *kel- Gk kólla, Lith. kiljai, Russ klej.

        *grad- OCS gradU, Arm karkut 'hail'- looks a bit thin, formerly had Latin grando: 'hail' for support according to Pokorny. However, Sanskrit hra:duni- might indicate that Armenian karkut does not belong, and that the root is something like *g^Hro:d- or *g^Hrohd-. What does Lith. grúodas tell us?

        *gHelo:u- Gk kheló:ne:, OCS z^elUvI 'tortoise'

        *gHWih1bH- Eng wife, Toch kip/kwi:pe 'pudenda'

        *gWHeleg^H- Arm gel/j Russ z^eleza 'gland'

        *wail- Arm gayl, OIr fáel

        *leh3p- Alb. lopë, Ltv lùops

        *marko- OIr marc, Eng. mare 'horse'

        *mendyos- Alb. mëz/mâz, Illyr. mandos, Thracian Meze:nai, Messapic Menzanas 'horse'

        What problems do you see with the sound correspondences of these?

        Richard.
      • Brian M. Scott
        At 12:47:31 PM on Sunday, December 5, 2010, Richard ... It s in Pokorny: (gHre:-), gHro:-, gHr@- wachsen, grünen (p. 454). It s also in Watkins. Brian
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 5, 2010
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          At 12:47:31 PM on Sunday, December 5, 2010, Richard
          Wordingham wrote:

          > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "piervantrink"
          > <piervantrink@...> wrote:

          >> 9/Many supoosed proto ie roots are supported by examples
          >> of very few Indo-European branches and sometimes by only
          >> 1 ie branche,or from only 1-2 branch with very
          >> unbelievable sound changes forgetting the
          >> innovation,loans and chance propabilities.

          >> As an exemple,the supposed pie *h2ég^H-r root has only 2
          >> given examples both in the same Indo-Iranian
          >> branch(Avestan and Sanskrit) *h2ég^H-r/n.;- day Skr.
          >> ahar, Av. azan

          > [I've taken the liberty of transliterating Unicode to
          > Latin-1.]

          > There are two entries that cite reflexes from only one
          > branch:

          > *gHreh1 Eng green, grow, grass

          > This one needs some investigation. There may be
          > connections with some similar roots, though it is
          > discouraging that neither Pokorny nor the 'Concise
          > Dictionary of English Etymology' (Onions) offer a PIE root
          > for these words.

          It's in Pokorny: (gHre:-), gHro:-, gHr@- 'wachsen, grünen'
          (p. 454). It's also in Watkins.

          Brian
        • Richard Wordingham
          ... I ve now found the entry in Pokorny. He gives some uncertain Slavonic cognates, but he also suggests that it is probably the same as the homonymous root
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 6, 2010
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            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <bm.brian@...> wrote:
            > At 12:47:31 PM on Sunday, December 5, 2010, Richard
            > Wordingham wrote:

            > > *gHreh1 Eng green, grow, grass

            > It's in Pokorny: (gHre:-), gHro:-, gHr@ 'wachsen, grünen'
            > (p. 454). It's also in Watkins.

            I've now found the entry in Pokorny. He gives some uncertain Slavonic cognates, but he also suggests that it is probably the same as the homonymous root *gHerh1 'to stand out', used of projections from plant stems and of bristles. (For the sense, recall that New Guinea Pidgin English for 'beard' is literally 'face grass'.) For *gHerh1 we have, amongst other words, Russian _gran^_ 'facet; border' and Bulgarian(?) grána 'branch' and Middle Irish _grenn_ 'beard'.

            Richard.
          • Brian M. Scott
            ... I didn t check, but I assume that bg. skr. is Bulgarian and Serbo-Croatian. ... For what it s worth, Matasovic gives no PIE source for PCelt. *grando-,
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 6, 2010
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              At 2:03:41 PM on Monday, December 6, 2010, Richard Wordingham wrote:

              > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott"
              > <bm.brian@...> wrote:

              >> At 12:47:31 PM on Sunday, December 5, 2010, Richard
              >> Wordingham wrote:

              >>> *gHreh1 Eng green, grow, grass

              >> It's in Pokorny: (gHre:-), gHro:-, gHr@ 'wachsen, grünen'
              >> (p. 454). It's also in Watkins.

              > I've now found the entry in Pokorny. He gives some
              > uncertain Slavonic cognates, but he also suggests that it
              > is probably the same as the homonymous root *gHerh1 'to
              > stand out', used of projections from plant stems and of
              > bristles. (For the sense, recall that New Guinea Pidgin
              > English for 'beard' is literally 'face grass'.) For
              > *gHerh1 we have, amongst other words, Russian _gran^_
              > 'facet; border' and Bulgarian(?)

              I didn't check, but I assume that 'bg. skr.' is Bulgarian
              and Serbo-Croatian.

              > grána 'branch' and Middle Irish _grenn_ 'beard'.

              For what it's worth, Matasovic gives no PIE source for
              PCelt. *grando-, *grendo- 'beard', and I didn't spot the
              Slavic words in Derksen's inherited Slavic lexicon.

              Brian
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