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Re: Jordanes

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  • Torsten
    ... How about, with my favorite root, *λáN-aN- - *dláŋg-aŋ- - *dlág-an- - belág-in- cf. Pokorny dhl.gh- debt, dues . OIr dligim am entitled to
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 8, 2010
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      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alex_lycos" <altamix@...> wrote:
      >
      > I guess we don't need to speak now about the credibility of Jordanes
      > since I wish just to point to an linguistic issue.
      > I am not aware if somewhere else is found the expresion "leges
      > Bellagines".
      > Questions:
      > - is Jordanes the first which speaks about these Leges Bellagines?
      > - is the word to divide as "bellagi" ( pl. form)+ suff. "-nes"?
      > - is in this case 'bellagos' the same word as Greek "pelagos"?
      > - does this word make any sense in Latin or Greek?
      > - is the "bellag" a phonetically possible candidate for
      > slavic "valax"?
      >

      How about, with my favorite root,

      *λáN-aN- -> *dláŋg-aŋ- -> *dlág-an- -> belág-in-

      cf.
      Pokorny
      'dhl.gh- "debt, dues".

      OIr dligim "am entitled to smt., deserve",

      MWelsh dlyu, with epenthet. vowel dylyu "to owe",
      Corn. dylly id.,
      MBreton dellit id.,
      OIr dliged n. "duty, law, justice" (*dhl.ghito-m),
      Welsh dled, dyled,
      MCorn. d(y)lyet f. "duty",
      further dlit "merit" (*dhl.ghītā);

      Gothic dulgs "debt";

      OChSl dlъgъ "dues",
      Russ. dolg,
      Serbo-Croat dûg (gen. dûga),
      Polish dług,
      Czech dluh id.

      Gothic dulgs and the Slavic words are presumably ultimately related.'


      and also I think
      ON lo,g pl. "law" is from *dlagu- <- *λaN- ,
      together with all the words Pokorny has under *legh-

      cf.
      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66013



      Torsten
    • Alexandru Moeller
      ... well, teh text, you provided means: Jordanes, on his own background http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanes#Life The Sciri, moreover, and the Sadagarii and
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 8, 2010
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        Am 07.11.2010 22:40, schrieb Torsten:
        >
        >
        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:cybalist%40yahoogroups.com>,
        > Alexandru Moeller <alxmoeller@...> wrote:

        > >
        > > how his ethnic background was getic when his descendende/liniage on
        > > his father side is Gothic?
        >
        > He doesn't say so.

        well, teh text, you provided means:

        Jordanes, on his own background
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanes#Life
        'The Sciri, moreover, and the Sadagarii and certain of the Alani with
        their leader, Candac by name, received Scythia Minor and Lower Moesia.
        Paria, the father of my father Alanoviiamuth (that is to say, my
        grandfather), was secretary to this Candac as long as he lived. To his
        sister's son Gunthigis, also called Baza, the Master of the Soldiery,
        who was the son of Andag the son of Andela, who was descended from the
        stock of the Amali, I also, Jordanes, although an unlearned man before
        my conversion, was secretary.'

        I am not aware about Paria and Baza as beeing Thracian names. The other
        names which are mentioned here do not appears to be Dacian or Thracian
        either(Candac, Alanoviiamuth, Andag, Andela, Amali, Gunthigis), probalby
        they are Sarmatic (Alans, Roxolans)


        >
        > > As for the name Jordanes, maybe he took a christian name which was
        > > appropiate to the Dacian *Durdanus,
        >
        > Diurdanus (ie. Djurdanus)
        >
        > > this appears to be workable hypothesis but why should have a Goth a
        > > Dacian name ?
        >
        > Who says he's a Goth?
        >
        > > P.S.
        > > -it can be that even the well known "Dardanus" is too a reflex of
        > > Durdanes
        >
        > Diurdanus

        The form Diur- shold be an younger one, the initial form has been
        "dur-" as in Durazis, Durpaneus, etc.
        The change "du>diu>3u" does not shows any phonetic troubles if the "J"
        was pronounced as a consontant like in Joe.




        >
        > > and shouldn't be treated separately off this group of names.
        > >
        >
        > Detschew divides that name as *dard- plus end�ng and lists forms with
        > other endings.
        >
        > Torsten


        I am not allways happy with the way Detschew divides some words when
        sustaining some ideas in the "Charakteristik der thrakischen Sprache).
        Yet, missing his book where he send someone to read about, I am missing
        the basis of understanding his reasons to divide the words as such.

        Alex
      • Torsten
        ... No, the text says that his grandfather Paria was secretary to the king of the Sciri, Candac, and that he himself was secretary to Baza, son of Andag, son
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 8, 2010
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          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Alexandru Moeller <alxmoeller@...> wrote:
          >
          > Am 07.11.2010 22:40, schrieb Torsten:
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:cybalist%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > > Alexandru Moeller <alxmoeller@> wrote:
          >
          > > >
          > > > how his ethnic background was getic when his
          > > > descendende/liniage on his father side is Gothic?
          > >
          > > He doesn't say so.
          >
          > well, teh text, you provided means:
          >
          > Jordanes, on his own background
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanes#Life
          > 'The Sciri, moreover, and the Sadagarii and certain of the Alani
          > with their leader, Candac by name, received Scythia Minor and Lower
          > Moesia. Paria, the father of my father Alanoviiamuth (that is to
          > say, my grandfather), was secretary to this Candac as long as he
          > lived. To his sister's son Gunthigis, also called Baza, the Master
          > of the Soldiery, who was the son of Andag the son of Andela, who was
          > descended from the stock of the Amali, I also, Jordanes, although an
          > unlearned man before my conversion, was secretary.'

          No, the text says that his grandfather Paria was secretary to the king of the Sciri, Candac, and that he himself was secretary to Baza, son of Andag, son of Andela, who was an Amal (thus Goth) and Candac's sister. It says nothing about his own ethnicity. In fact since he is a secretary, he was most likely a slave or freedman and therefore of another ethnicity than his Gothic employer.

          > I am not aware about Paria and Baza as beeing Thracian names. The
          > other names which are mentioned here do not appears to be Dacian or
          > Thracian either(Candac, Alanoviiamuth, Andag, Andela, Amali,
          > Gunthigis), probalby they are Sarmatic (Alans, Roxolans)

          Detschew has both Paris and
          'πάρος m. PN. -
          IG 9, 2, 287 α aus Gomphi, Thessalien,
          10: πάρος Μουσαίου (Freigelassener).
          IGRP 1, 98 aus Rom: παρος σαβαζίω, δω~ρον.
          Bechtel PN 551 identifiziert den PN mit dem Inselnamen πάρος.
          Wegen -parus in Zi-parus halte ich ihn dagegen für Parallelform von πάρις.'

          as Thracian names. And no one claimed Baza was a Thracian name. As for the other names, Gunthigis looks Germanic, the rest don't, but Gothic names often don't look Germanic.


          > > > As for the name Jordanes, maybe he took a christian name which
          > > > was appropiate to the Dacian *Durdanus,
          > >
          > > Diurdanus (ie. Djurdanus)
          > >
          > > > this appears to be workable hypothesis but why should have a
          > > > Goth a Dacian name ?
          > >
          > > Who says he's a Goth?
          > >
          > > > P.S.
          > > > -it can be that even the well known "Dardanus" is too a reflex
          > > > of Durdanes
          > >
          > > Diurdanus
          >
          > The form Diur- shold be an younger one, the initial form has been
          > "dur-" as in Durazis, Durpaneus, etc.

          I don't believe that. Dur- -> Diur- doesn't make sense as a phonetic deveopment.

          > The change "du>diu>3u" does not shows any phonetic troubles if the
          > "J" was pronounced as a consontant like in Joe.

          Yes it does, du > dju doesn't make sense.

          > >
          > > > and shouldn't be treated separately off this group of names.
          > > >
          > >
          > > Detschew divides that name as *dard- plus end�ng and lists forms
          > > with other endings.
          > >
          >
          > I am not allways happy with the way Detschew divides some words when
          > sustaining some ideas in the "Charakteristik der thrakischen
          > Sprache).
          > Yet, missing his book where he send someone to read about, I am
          > missing the basis of understanding his reasons to divide the words
          > as such.

          He says he wants the Dardani to be connected with
          'δαρζαλας, δερζελας, bzw. δερζαλατης GN;
          δαρζαλεια Festspiele zur Ehre des Gottes Derzelas.'



          Torsten
        • Alexandru Moeller
          ... Paria is not Paris and not Paros. Paris and Paros are both several time to find in Dacian/Thracian space, but never Paria. Maybe this is a corupted form of
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 10, 2010
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            Am 09.11.2010 02:09, schrieb Torsten:
            >
            >
            > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:cybalist%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > Alexandru Moeller <alxmoeller@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Am 07.11.2010 22:40, schrieb Torsten:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:cybalist%40yahoogroups.com>
            > <mailto:cybalist%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > > > Alexandru Moeller <alxmoeller@> wrote:
            >
            > > I am not aware about Paria and Baza as beeing Thracian names. The
            > > other names which are mentioned here do not appears to be Dacian or
            > > Thracian either(Candac, Alanoviiamuth, Andag, Andela, Amali,
            > > Gunthigis), probalby they are Sarmatic (Alans, Roxolans)
            >
            > Detschew has both Paris and
            > 'πάρος m. PN. -
            > IG 9, 2, 287 α aus Gomphi, Thessalien,
            > 10: πάρος Μουσαίου (Freigelassener).
            > IGRP 1, 98 aus Rom: παρος σαβαζίω, δω~ρον.
            > Bechtel PN 551 identifiziert den PN mit dem Inselnamen πάρος.
            > Wegen -parus in Zi-parus halte ich ihn dagegen für Parallelform von πάρις.'
            > as Thracian names. And no one claimed Baza was a Thracian name. As for
            > the other names, Gunthigis looks Germanic, the rest don't, but Gothic
            > names often don't look Germanic.

            Paria is not Paris and not Paros. Paris and Paros are both several time
            to find in Dacian/Thracian space, but never Paria. Maybe this is a
            corupted form of Paris or Paros.


            > > > Diurdanus
            > >
            > > The form Diur- shold be an younger one, the initial form has been
            > > "dur-" as in Durazis, Durpaneus, etc.
            >
            > I don't believe that. Dur- -> Diur- doesn't make sense as a phonetic
            > deveopment.

            how do you mean it please?

            >
            > > The change "du>diu>3u" does not shows any phonetic troubles if the
            > > "J" was pronounced as a consontant like in Joe.
            >
            > Yes it does, du > dju doesn't make sense.

            in my opinion. it makes sense if the change happened in Dacian language.


            >
            > He says he wants the Dardani to be connected with
            > 'δαρζαλας, δερζελας, bzw. δερζαλατης GN;
            > δαρζαλεια Festspiele zur Ehre des Gottes Derzelas.'
            >
            > Torsten

            Well... Dardanus with Derzelas.. maybe there is a connection, maybe
            not... I think -danus and -zelas are hard to be brought to the same root
            ( if they are supposed to derive from the same root ):


            Alex
          • Rick McCallister
            ________________________________ From: Alexandru Moeller To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, November 10, 2010 12:09:56 PM Subject:
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 10, 2010
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              From: Alexandru Moeller <alxmoeller@...>
              To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, November 10, 2010 12:09:56 PM
              Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Jordanes

               

              Am 09.11.2010 02:09, schrieb Torsten:

              >
              >
              > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:cybalist%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > Alexandru Moeller <alxmoeller@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Am 07.11.2010 22:40, schrieb Torsten:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:cybalist%40yahoogroups.com>
              > <mailto:cybalist%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > > > Alexandru Moeller <alxmoeller@> wrote:
              >
              > > I am not aware about Paria and Baza as beeing Thracian names. The
              > > other names which are mentioned here do not appears to be Dacian or
              > > Thracian either(Candac, Alanoviiamuth, Andag, Andela, Amali,
              > > Gunthigis), probalby they are Sarmatic (Alans, Roxolans)
              >
              > Detschew has both Paris and
              > 'πάρος m. PN. -
              > IG 9, 2, 287 α aus Gomphi, Thessalien,
              > 10: πάρος Μουσαίου (Freigelassener).
              > IGRP 1, 98 aus Rom: παρος σαβαζίω, δω~ρον.
              > Bechtel PN 551 identifiziert den PN mit dem Inselnamen πάρος.
              > Wegen -parus in Zi-parus halte ich ihn dagegen für Parallelform von πάρις.'
              > as Thracian names. And no one claimed Baza was a Thracian name. As for
              > the other names, Gunthigis looks Germanic, the rest don't, but Gothic
              > names often don't look Germanic.

              Paria is not Paris and not Paros. Paris and Paros are both several time
              to find in Dacian/Thracian space, but never Paria. Maybe this is a
              corupted form of Paris or Paros.

              > > > Diurdanus
              > >
              > > The form Diur- shold be an younger one, the initial form has been
              > > "dur-" as in Durazis, Durpaneus, etc.
              >
              > I don't believe that. Dur- -> Diur- doesn't make sense as a phonetic
              > deveopment.

              how do you mean it please?

              >
              > > The change "du>diu>3u" does not shows any phonetic troubles if the
              > > "J" was pronounced as a consontant like in Joe.
              >
              > Yes it does, du > dju doesn't make sense.

              ***R It happened in British English dune, due where /du/ > /dy/ > /dju/ > /dzhu/ (the latter in dialect)

              But you'd have to posit /u/ > /y/ "ü" in Dacian and I have no idea about that

              in my opinion. it makes sense if the change happened in Dacian language.

              >
              > He says he wants the Dardani to be connected with
              > 'δαρζαλας, δερζελας, bzw. δερζαλατης GN;
              > δαρζαλεια Festspiele zur Ehre des Gottes Derzelas.'
              >
              > Torsten

              Well... Dardanus with Derzelas.. maybe there is a connection, maybe
              not... I think -danus and -zelas are hard to be brought to the same root
              ( if they are supposed to derive from the same root ):

              Alex


            • Alexandru Moeller
              ... I thought here at the fonetic changes which happened in Romanian and in Albanian. We have u iu in Albanian and we have a later palatalisation of dy from
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 10, 2010
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                Am 10.11.2010 18:48, schrieb Rick McCallister:
                > >
                > > > The change "du>diu>3u" does not shows any phonetic troubles if the
                > > > "J" was pronounced as a consontant like in Joe.
                > >
                > > Yes it does, du > dju doesn't make sense.
                >
                > ***R It happened in British English dune, due where /du/ > /dy/ > /dju/
                > > /dzhu/ (the latter in dialect)
                >
                > But you'd have to posit /u/ > /y/ "ü" in Dacian and I have no idea about
                > that
                >


                I thought here at the fonetic changes which happened in Romanian and in
                Albanian. We have u>iu in Albanian and we have a later palatalisation of
                "dy" from "diu<du" to "dz"; this "dz" has big chances to become a
                consonantal "j" as in Joe. The change is for instance atested in
                Romanian where zi > ji (again, beiing necesari an "i" for this change).

                "half".


                alex
              • Torsten
                ... I know. ... Possible. ... dur- - djur would happen if -u- - -ju-, but we don t see that elsewhere in Detschew s examples, or -d- - -dj-, but we don t
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 10, 2010
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                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Alexandru Moeller <alxmoeller@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Am 09.11.2010 02:09, schrieb Torsten:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:cybalist%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > > Alexandru Moeller <alxmoeller@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Am 07.11.2010 22:40, schrieb Torsten:
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:cybalist%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > <mailto:cybalist%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > > > > Alexandru Moeller <alxmoeller@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > I am not aware about Paria and Baza as beeing Thracian names.
                  > > > The other names which are mentioned here do not appears to be
                  > > > Dacian or Thracian either(Candac, Alanoviiamuth, Andag, Andela,
                  > > > Amali, Gunthigis), probalby they are Sarmatic (Alans, Roxolans)
                  > >
                  > > Detschew has both Paris and
                  > > 'πάρος m. PN. -
                  > > IG 9, 2, 287 α aus Gomphi, Thessalien,
                  > > 10: πάρος Μουσαίου (Freigelassener).
                  > > IGRP 1, 98 aus Rom: παρος σαβαζίω, δω~ρον.
                  > > Bechtel PN 551 identifiziert den PN mit dem Inselnamen πάρος.
                  > > Wegen -parus in Zi-parus halte ich ihn dagegen für Parallelform
                  > > von πάρις.'
                  > > as Thracian names. And no one claimed Baza was a Thracian name. As
                  > > for the other names, Gunthigis looks Germanic, the rest don't, but
                  > > Gothic names often don't look Germanic.
                  >
                  > Paria is not Paris and not Paros. Paris and Paros are both several
                  > time to find in Dacian/Thracian space, but never Paria.

                  I know.

                  > Maybe this is a corupted form of Paris or Paros.

                  Possible.

                  >
                  > > > > Diurdanus
                  > > >
                  > > > The form Diur- shold be an younger one, the initial form has
                  > > > been "dur-" as in Durazis, Durpaneus, etc.
                  > >
                  > > I don't believe that. Dur- -> Diur- doesn't make sense as a
                  > > phonetic deveopment.
                  >
                  > how do you mean it please?

                  dur- -> djur would happen if
                  -u- -> -ju-, but we don't see that elsewhere in Detschew's examples,
                  or
                  -d- -> -dj-, but we don't see that elsewhere in Detschew's examples,

                  > >
                  > > > The change "du>diu>3u" does not shows any phonetic troubles if
                  > > > the "J" was pronounced as a consontant like in Joe.
                  > >
                  > > Yes it does, du > dju doesn't make sense.
                  >
                  > in my opinion. it makes sense if the change happened in Dacian
                  > language.

                  That's two different things.
                  And whether it happened in the Dacian language is what we discussed in the first place, so invalid argument.

                  I'd rather connect diur- with zur- in
                  'Ζουρης, Ζυρις.

                  â€" 1. KDP 64 aus Araplar, Bez. Popovo:
                  Σαικιθης Ζουρηους;
                  420 aus Amphipolis: (dat.) [Ζ]ουρει.
                  ΙΡΕ 1, 2 aus Tyras, 23: Κ[α]ι~σαρ Ζουρη `άρχων.

                  â€" 2. AB 23, 1926, 131 Nr. 28 aus Rodosto:
                  [Σ]ημονίδης Ζυριδο(υ) wo m. E. eher Ζυριδο(ς) zu lesen ist.

                  Sicher Dublettform von Σουρα, Surus, Συρος.
                  Vgl. hier den PN Zura.'


                  > >
                  > > He says he wants the Dardani to be connected with
                  > > 'δαρζαλας, δερζελας, bzw. δερζαλατης GN;
                  > > δαρζαλεια Festspiele zur Ehre des Gottes Derzelas.'
                  > >
                  >
                  > Well... Dardanus with Derzelas.. maybe there is a connection, maybe
                  > not... I think -danus and -zelas are hard to be brought to the same
                  > root ( if they are supposed to derive from the same root ):

                  He probably wants to derive from a root *dard-, with variant *darz- before front vowel
                  (*dard-e- -> *dard-je- -> *dardj-e- -> *darz-e-)
                  with two different suffixes, *-an- and *-el-, vel sim.

                  Another theory he mentions is that it's related to
                  Albanian dardhë "pear tree" (because that's where they lived),
                  myself I proposed (I think) a connection with the
                  Greek/Norse darr(-aþ/uþ)- "spear",
                  http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66364
                  http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66389

                  but being a nice Scandinavian, I'm willing to compromise, so I propose it means "pearwood spear", which would be rather expensive and status-enhancing.

                  Or else, rather, the spear connection had some cultic significance.
                  http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66472


                  Torsten
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