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Re: [tied] Re: Torsten's theory reviewed

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  • Brian M. Scott
    ... [...] ... Of course it can. In a linguistic context pleonastic means [i]nvolving the use of words which are redundant, in that they merely repeat
    Message 1 of 149 , Sep 30, 2010
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      At 5:41:25 AM on Thursday, September 30, 2010, Torsten wrote:

      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott"
      > <bm.brian@...> wrote:

      >> At 6:19:44 AM on Sunday, September 26, 2010, Torsten wrote:

      [...]

      >>> But "arogis deda / alagu þleuba dedun" with two
      >>> sparate(?) meanings of "do" sounds contrived.

      >> Not separate meanings; the first instance is (on this
      >> reading) merely pleonastic.

      > Can't be, it's the same verb

      Of course it can. In a linguistic context 'pleonastic'
      means '[i]nvolving the use of words which are redundant, in
      that they merely repeat information already expressed
      elsewhere' (Trask, A Dictionary of Grammatical Terms in
      Linguistics). I could also have said 'redundant'.

      >>> Now if the scrabble rules allow me to subtract a
      >>> consonant, I think I'll pick a -t- instead of an -l-.

      >> They don't allow you to do so arbitrarily. Both <Gis-> and
      >> <-gis> are very well attested Gmc. name themes; <-gist> is
      >> not. Moreover, there was a fairly common <l>-suffix by
      >> which themes could be extended, so it would not be very
      >> surprising if an inherent final <-l> were sometimes lost.

      >> For that matter, it's not clear that anything has to be
      >> lost: the 'arrow-shaft, beam, staff' word may be an <-l>
      >> diminutive of an ablaut variant of the 'spear' word, in
      >> which case the theme *gīsa- may simply continue the variant
      >> itself.

      >>> Put differently, it might be plausible, but so is the
      >>> -gist interpretation, given the facts at hand.

      >> A rune carver's error for an unattested <Arogast>

      > Your claim. You forget the 'd' is actually there.

      You missed the point. What is actually there is <Arogisd>;
      if this represents unattested <Arogast>, both the <i> and
      the <d> require explanation. The <d> can be explained as
      the result of confusion following the High German sound
      shift, but the <i> remains an error.

      >> does not seem to me as plausible as a reading that uses
      >> only attested elements. Support for a genuine <-gist>
      >> theme is nil.

      > You wish.

      I don't really care one way or the other. However, the word
      in 'Beowulf' certainly doesn't offer any such support, and
      not just because it doesn't appear there as a name theme.
      Whether that <gist> represents <giest> 'guest' or <gæ:st>
      'spirit', the form is OE, and so far as I can tell not
      standard for any OE dialect. The PGmc. sources are *gastiz
      and *gaistaz, respectively, neither of which can be expected
      to produce <gist> in a southern German context.

      Brian
    • Brian M. Scott
      ... Harrison & Harrison, _Surnames of the United Kingdom_, is not authoritative. It is in fact somewhat notorious for etymologizing on the modern forms of
      Message 149 of 149 , Oct 19, 2010
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        At 9:00:13 AM on Tuesday, October 19, 2010, Torsten wrote:

        > I don't want to open this thread again; I'm adding this
        > posting to the tree since I found an authoritative quote
        > on the subject, and I'd like to be able to locate that
        > quote in the future.

        > And it is:

        > Harrison & Harrison
        > Surnames of the United Kingdom:
        > a concise etymological dictionary
        > http://tinyurl.com/3al7ffz

        Harrison & Harrison, _Surnames of the United Kingdom_, is
        not authoritative. It is in fact somewhat notorious for
        etymologizing on the modern forms of surnames, and this
        entry is an example. <Pendegast> is from <Prendergast>, the
        name of a village and parish in Pembrokeshire and, as
        <Prenderguest>, of what is now a farm in Berwickshire; early
        instances of the byname include <de Prendergat'> 1225, <de
        Prendrogest> 1354, <de Prendergest> ~1170, ~1240, 1325, and
        <de Prendregast> 1296. The Scottish place-name is
        associated at an early date with an Anglo-Norman family who
        may have brought it from Wales. The etymology is unknown,
        but the name is apparently P-Celtic, and the first element
        may be <pren> 'tree'.

        Brian
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