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Talageri's reply to Fournet on the OIT

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  • Koenraad
    Dear listfolk, I have uploaded in the files section Shrikant Talageri s rebuttal (TalageriReplyToJoker.doc) of Arnaud Fournet s slapdash criticism of his book
    Message 1 of 5 , May 31, 2010
      Dear listfolk,

      I have uploaded in the files section Shrikant Talageri's rebuttal (TalageriReplyToJoker.doc) of Arnaud Fournet's slapdash criticism of his book "The Rigveda and the Avesta, the Final Evidence", in which he had dissected the Rg-Veda and the Avesta for conclusive evidence for an Indian origin of Indo-Iranian and even Indo-European.

      So far, Fournet, expelled from this list for uncivilized conduct, has been the only one to try and take on the evidence presented by Talageri. Profs. Michael Witzel and Francesco Brighenti, leading critics of the Out-of-India Theory who might be deemed capable of writing their own critiques, have taken umbrage behind Fournet's polemical review when challenged for a refutation. So, Fournet's demolition of Talageri's OIT must be formidable indeed, and Talageri's attempt to prove him wrong must be well worth our read.

      Best regards,

      Koenraad Elst
    • Francesco Brighenti
      ... Arnaud s review of Talageri s book, some long extracts from which are reproduced (and hysterically commented on -- but not at all rebutted as you wrongly
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 2, 2010
        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Koenraad" <koenraad.elst@...> wrote:

        > Dear listfolk,
        >
        > I have uploaded in the files section Shrikant Talageri's rebuttal
        > (TalageriReplyToJoker.doc) of Arnaud Fournet's slapdash criticism
        > of his book "The Rigveda and the Avesta, the Final Evidence", in
        > which he had dissected the Rg-Veda and the Avesta for conclusive
        > evidence for an Indian origin of Indo-Iranian and even Indo-
        > European.

        Arnaud's review of Talageri's book, some long extracts from which are reproduced (and hysterically commented on -- but not at all "rebutted" as you wrongly claim!) in the reply by Talageri you have uploaded in the Files section, is one of the best critical writings of his I have ever read.

        > So far, Fournet, expelled from this list for uncivilized conduct,...

        Since this did not prevent you from asking him to write a review of Talageri's book last year, why are you now contemptuously calling Arnaud an "uncivilized" one, just because you don't like what he wrote in that review? I am in strong disagreement with Arnaud as regards some other ideas and enterprises of his -- last but not least, his would-be 'decipherment' of the so-called Indus script --, but I subscribe to most of the linguistic points he raises in his review of Talageri's book.

        > ...has been the only one to try and take on the evidence presented
        > by Talageri. Profs. Michael Witzel and Francesco Brighenti, leading
        > critics of the Out-of-India Theory...

        I am, as you know, not a professor, and not even a "leading" critic of the Out-of-India theory (although I am, indeed, strongly critic of it).

        > ...who might be deemed capable of writing their own critiques,
        > have taken umbrage behind Fournet's polemical review when
        > challenged for a refutation.

        Yes, because Arnaud's review hits the mark!

        > So, Fournet's demolition of Talageri's OIT must be formidable
        > indeed, and Talageri's attempt to prove him wrong must be well
        > worth our read.

        One of the most illuminating points documented in Arnaud's review is that Talageri, just like most of other OIT proponents, denies the very existence of a Proto-Indo-Iranian language (or dialectal continuum), a branch of the IE language family from which the Indo-Aryan and Iranian sub-branches respectively stemmed after a certain stage of linguistic development. Note how Talageri, in his hysterical reply to Arnaud's review of his book, carefully avoids to admit this. (List members should kindly read the file uploaded by Koenraad in its entirety to realize that.) What else is needed to show that Talageri culturally belongs to an age prior to the development of comparative linguistics and the birth of the comparative method?

        A. Lubotsky's online database of Indo-Aryan inherited lexicon, based on M. Mayrhofer, Etymologisches W├Ârterbuch des Altindoarischen (Heidelberg 1986-1996), contains altogether more than 1700 records, for most of which Proto-Indo-Iranian reconstructions are provided.

        This is the link to the first page of the database:

        http://tinyurl.com/349onur

        This is the most complete, well-argued, and authoritative Indo-Aryan etymological database available online to date. Among other things, it reflects the most up-to-date reconstructions of the Proto-Indo-Iranian lexical roots, reflecting not only Mayrhofer's, but also Lubotsky's views of PIIr phonology (on some of which there is some disagreement, e.g. as regards the reconstruction of laryngeals in Proto-Indo-Iranian).

        Now go on reading the whole database (several hundreds of webpages!) till you become familiar with all of the 1700 Proto-Indo-Iranian reconstructions, and finally tell me if there really never was a Proto-Indo-Iranian parent language (or dialectal continuum) as Talageri keeps on maintaining!

        Regards,
        Francesco
      • johnvertical@hotmail.com
        ... Is the critiq available anywhere BTW? His scribd account appears to have been deleted. If Talageri rejects PIA I suspect it ll be a less hilarious read
        Message 3 of 5 , Jun 3, 2010
          > > Dear listfolk,
          > >
          > > I have uploaded in the files section Shrikant Talageri's rebuttal
          > > (TalageriReplyToJoker.doc) of Arnaud Fournet's slapdash criticism
          > > of his book "The Rigveda and the Avesta, the Final Evidence", in
          > > which he had dissected the Rg-Veda and the Avesta for conclusive
          > > evidence for an Indian origin of Indo-Iranian and even Indo-
          > > European.
          >
          > Arnaud's review of Talageri's book, some long extracts from which are reproduced (and hysterically commented on -- but not at all "rebutted" as you wrongly claim!) in the reply by Talageri you have uploaded in the Files section, is one of the best critical writings of his I have ever read.

          Is the critiq available anywhere BTW? His scribd account appears to have been deleted.

          If Talageri rejects PIA I suspect it'll be a less hilarious read than the rebuttal makes it sound (ie. the rebuttal misses the point just as well as any complaints about fonts do), but it sounds interesting regardless.

          John Vertical
        • Tavi
          ... are reproduced (and hysterically commented on -- but not at all rebutted as you wrongly claim!) in the reply by Talageri you have uploaded in the Files
          Message 4 of 5 , Jun 3, 2010

            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, johnvertical@... wrote:

            >
            > > Arnaud's review of Talageri's book, some long extracts from which are reproduced (and hysterically commented on -- but not at all "rebutted" as you wrongly claim!) in the reply by Talageri you have uploaded in the Files section, is one of the best critical writings of his I have ever read.
            >
            > Is the critiq available anywhere BTW? His scribd account appears to have been deleted.
            >
            Yes, he moved from scribd.com to calameo.com. Here's the link http://es.calameo.com/books/000262705e8bbe5b13708

             

          • Koenraad
            ... Arnaud s review boils down to repeating endlessly how Talageri works outside the established paradigm, though this was agreed upon by all parties concerned
            Message 5 of 5 , Jun 9, 2010
              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, johnvertical@ wrote:
              > >
              > > > Arnaud's review of Talageri's book, some long extracts from which
              > are reproduced (and hysterically commented on -- but not at all
              > "rebutted" as you wrongly claim!) in the reply by Talageri you have
              > uploaded in the Files section, is one of the best critical writings of
              > his I have ever read.
              > >
              > >


              Arnaud's review boils down to repeating endlessly how Talageri works outside the established paradigm, though this was agreed upon by all parties concerned from the start. Scholars working outside the presents ideological climate, who have not been forewarned that Shrikant is the bad guy whose positions have to be buried by any means, will find it easy to decide whose language is the more hysterical, Arnaud's or Shrikant's. The losers are those among you who allow themselves to be dissuaded from acquainting themselves directly with Shrikant's analysis of the Vedic, Avestan and Mitannic data.


              Kind regards,

              Koenraad Elst
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