Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Res: Res: Res: [tied] Re: Latin tempus

Expand Messages
  • Joao S. Lopes
    In Portuguese means season, a span of time , in vacation period , and can refer to TV series, for example,
    Message 1 of 21 , Apr 8, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      In Portuguese <temporada> means "season, a span of time", in <temporada de ferias> "vacation period", and can refer to TV series, for example, <ultima temporada de Arquivo X>, "X-Files' last year"
      <temporal> means "storm, powerful rain"

      *temos > *temes-rh2 > *temesra > *temeBra > *temebra > tenebra "darkness"

      JS Lopes



      De: Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...>
      Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
      Enviadas: Quinta-feira, 8 de Abril de 2010 9:41:23
      Assunto: Re: Res: Res: [tied] Re: Latin tempus

       




      From: Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@yahoo. com.br>
      To: cybalist@yahoogroup s.com
      Sent: Wed, April 7, 2010 9:04:18 PM
      Subject: Res: Res: [tied] Re: Latin tempus

       

      *temHos ... akin to temakhos "slice of fish"?



      De: Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@yahoo. com.br>
      Para: cybalist@yahoogroup s.com
      Enviadas: Quarta-feira, 7 de Abril de 2010 21:11:32
      Assunto: Res: [tied] Re: Latin tempus

       

      Did *tempos replace an older *temHos ? What's the explanation for the -p- in templus and amplus?

      JS Lopes


      De: dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@yahoo. com>
      Para: cybalist@yahoogroup s.com
      Enviadas: Quarta-feira, 7 de Abril de 2010 20:47:20
      Assunto: [tied] Re: Latin tempus

       



      --- In cybalist@yahoogroup s.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@.. .> wrote:
      >
      > Latin tempus (gen. temporis) "season, time, timespan, weather" (> tempestas "storm")
      >
      > Is there any PIE etymology? I cannot understand why pl. tempora means "side of the head, temple".
      >
      > How is it analysed?
      >
      > 1) < *temp-os-
      > 2) < *ten/m-p-os, *ten/m-pw-os or *ten/m-Cp-os

      In my opinion *tem-p-es-, *tem-p-os 'a cutting', hence on the one hand 'a division (of time), a season, weather', etc., on the other hand 'a steep side, temple of the head, precipitous cliff', with the latter sense in the plural giving the name of the vale of Tempe.

      The extension *-p- occurs with a handful of other IE roots signifying cutting. I do not have a good guess as to its original force.

      DGK
      .

       I wonder if it's not somehow related to *tem- (vel sim) "dark" in the sense of "shadow, dark/shaded side, dark half (i.e. night, winter)" analogous to how *wet-  begat "weather, wether". In Spanish, and I can't speak for other Romance languages, temporada "season" usually refers to "winter, monsoon", i/e/ "bad weather."


       
    • Rick McCallister
      ________________________________ From: Joao S. Lopes To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, April 8, 2010 9:09:59 AM Subject: Res:
      Message 2 of 21 , Apr 8, 2010
      • 0 Attachment



        From: Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...>
        To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, April 8, 2010 9:09:59 AM
        Subject: Res: Res: Res: [tied] Re: Latin tempus

         

        In Portuguese <temporada> means "season, a span of time", in <temporada de ferias> "vacation period", and can refer to TV series, for example, <ultima temporada de Arquivo X>, "X-Files' last year"
        <temporal> means "storm, powerful rain"

        *temos > *temes-rh2 > *temesra > *temeBra > *temebra > tenebra "darkness"

        JS Lopes

        In Spanish, temporada can mean both, although "tiempo" and "estación" (inter al.) are also used for "time span."  e.g. "tiempo de guerra," "tiempo/estación de mangos." But there are others: "último año de Archivos X,"  Temporal is "temporary"
        But, I'm wondering how Latin dealt with these issues

      • Torsten
        ... Pokorny 1. ten-, tend- stretch, pull, tighten , auch von der Weberei, weaving, thread etc.; tenos- n. tense sinew , tena:, to(:)no-s tension ,
        Message 3 of 21 , Apr 8, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          >
          > --- In cybalist@yahoogroup s.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@ .> wrote:
          > >
          > > Latin tempus (gen. temporis) "season, time, timespan, weather"
          > > (> tempestas "storm")
          > >
          > > Is there any PIE etymology? I cannot understand why pl. tempora
          > > means "side of the head, temple".
          > >
          > > How is it analysed?
          > >
          > > 1) < *temp-os-
          > > 2) < *ten/m-p-os, *ten/m-pw-os or *ten/m-Cp-os
          >
          > In my opinion *tem-p-es-, *tem-p-os 'a cutting', hence on the one
          > hand 'a division (of time), a season, weather', etc., on the other
          > hand 'a steep side, temple of the head, precipitous cliff', with
          > the latter sense in the plural giving the name of the vale of Tempe.
          >
          > The extension *-p- occurs with a handful of other IE roots
          > signifying cutting. I do not have a good guess as to its original
          > force.
          >
          > DGK

          > De: Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...>

          > . I wonder if it's not somehow related to *tem- (vel sim) "dark" in
          > the sense of "shadow, dark/shaded side, dark half (i.e. night,
          > winter)" analogous to how *wet- begat "weather, wether". In
          > Spanish, and I can't speak for other Romance languages, temporada
          > "season" usually refers to "winter, monsoon", i/e/ "bad weather."
          >
          >



          >
          > *temHos ... akin to temakhos "slice of fish"?
          >
          >
          >
          > Did *tempos replace an older *temHos ? What's the explanation for
          > the -p- in templus and amplus?


          > In Portuguese <temporada> means "season, a span of time", in
          > <temporada de ferias> "vacation period", and can refer to TV
          > series, for example, <ultima temporada de Arquivo X>, "X-Files'
          > last year"
          > <temporal> means "storm, powerful rain"
          >
          > *temos > *temes-rh2 > *temesra > *temeBra > *temebra > tenebra
          > "darkness"
          >
          > JS Lopes


          Pokorny

          '1. ten-, tend- "stretch, pull, tighten",
          auch von der Weberei, "weaving, thread" etc.;
          tenos- n. "tense sinew",
          tena:, to(:)no-s "tension",
          ten-tlo- : ten-tlo- "net";
          tn.-to- "stretched",
          tn.-ti-s "tension";
          ten- forms in IE an athematic root aorist
          (Ved. átan, átata "he has stretched") and a perfect
          (Ved. tatána, tatné, Lat. tetini).
          The present is formed with a -eu- extension
          (Ved. tanόti, tanuté, Gr. Hom. tánutai) or
          -ye/o- suffix (Gr. teíno:);
          cf. tenu-s "thin" and the extensions
          tengh-, tenk-, temp-, tens-.

          Sanskr. tanó:ti "stretches, tightens, stretches, lasts",
          Av. pairi-tanava 1. sg. subj. act. "I will keep away",
          pairi-tanuya 1. sg. opt. med.;
          Sanskr. ut-ta:na- "stretched out" =
          Av. usta:na- id. (*tn.nό-, cf.
          Sanskr. tani-man- n. "thinness", also
          Lith. tìnti, Lat. tene:-re);
          MPers. tani:ðan "turn, spin";
          as d- present (as Lat. tendo:)
          Sanskr. tandate: "gives way, becomes tired"
          (tandrá: "tiredness, looseness");
          partic. sanskr. tatá- m. "stretched"
          (= Gr. tatόs, Lat. tentus);
          tati- m. "row, thread, sacrificial act"
          (= Gr. tásis "tension, stretching",
          Lat. in-, con-tentio:), beside hochstufig
          tánti- "thread, string, row",
          tantu- "thread, line, string";
          tan- "extension, continuation, procreation, descendants",
          instr. taná: "continuo:",
          tána- m. "descendant",
          tána-m, tána:, tánas- n. "descendants";
          tántra-m "Zettel, Aufzug am Webstuhl" =
          MPers. ta:r (av. *ta,þra-) ds.,
          Afghan. to:r "net";
          Sanskr. ta:na- m. "tone, thread" (cf. Gr. tόnos);
          perhaps also
          tanú:- f. "body, person, self" ==
          Av. tanu:- f. id. (Mayrhofer 475);
          Gr. tánutai "stretches" (= Sanskr. tanute:),
          tanúo: (etánusa etc) "stretch, extend";
          teíno: ds. (tatόs), titaíno: ds.;
          tainía: "(long) strip, bind"
          (based on an adj. *taniόs);
          tétanos "tension, pull";
          tetanόs "stretched, long, taut";
          téno:n, -ontos "sinew",
          ténos n. "sinew, tightened band"
          (= lat. tenus, -oris, cf. also Sanskr. tánas- n.),
          a-tené:s "very tense, taut"
          (a- probably with Ion. psilosis = sm.-), whence
          atenízo: "look intently at smt.";
          tόnos "tension")
          also of the voice, musical tone"
          (:Lith. tãnas);
          tásis f. "tension" (*tn.tis);
          on tanú- "extending" s. under tenu-s;
          Alb. ndënj "extend, pull, tighten the strings";
          katund, këtunt (*ke-tn.-t-) "village" ("*set-up, tightened tent");
          Lat. tendo:, -ere, tetendi, tentum, younger te:nsum
          "tighten, extend, stretch out" (orig. d- present) =
          Umbr. an-, en-tentu "intendito:",
          ustentu "ostendito:" etc,
          Lat. tentus, (in-)tentio:;
          teneo:, -e:re, tenui (OLat. tetini: = Sanskr. tatane:),
          tentum "hold etc."
          (orig. durative, trans. and intrans. "keep smt. tense",
          whence |tene:re also "last" = extend),
          at-tine:re, pertine:re, continuus;
          tene:re aliquid orig. with acc. of goal
          "be stretched out to, tense about"
          (tene:-re belongs to
          OHG. done:n "stretched out, extended" and
          Lith. tìnstu, tìnti "swell");
          tenus, -oris n. "string with noose"
          (== gr. ténos), tenor, -o:ris m.
          (uninterrupted course, continuation, coherence;
          (legal.) meaning, contents of a law",
          tenus prep. w. abl. gen. acc. "(stretching) unto",
          protinus "(stretching) forwards"
          (cf. Sanskr. nú:tana:h., -tna:h. "present",
          Lat. diu:-tinus,
          Lith. dabartìnis "present"),
          tena:x "tenacious";
          Umbr. tenitu "teneto";
          OIr. tan "time" (*tena),
          Lith. "continuation, temporal extension"
          (in tain "when") (: Latv. tina),
          OIr. tét "string" (*tn.ta:) =
          Welsh tant id. (cf. Sanskr. tantu-, Icel. þind) =
          Bret. ar-dant "pegs on the waggon to fasten the rope on";
          OIr. te:it "goes"
          (*ten-ti, old root aorist, orig. "stretched");
          Got. uf-þanjan "stretch out, extend",
          ON þenja "stretch out, extend",
          OE ðenian, ðennan "stretch, extend",
          ahd. den(n)en "extend";
          aisl. þinull
          "rope going round a net which serves to tighten it",
          ON þind, Norw. tinder f. "diaphragm"
          (OIr te:t, Sanskr. tántu-);
          dh- present OE ðindan "swell, be angry";
          further ON þund f. "river";
          OE ðunian "rise, extend, swell",
          equals
          OHG MHG donên "extend, swell, strut";
          don "stretched out",
          MHG done, don "tension",
          OHG dona,
          OS thona "branch, stalk",
          German Dohne,
          OE ælf-ðone "Solanum dulcamara";
          ON þo,n f.
          "small wooden pegs for keeping hides stretched out on the ground",
          Swed. tana "sinew",
          older Dan. tan "diaphragm";
          Lith. tìnstu, tìnti "swell",
          tãnas "tumor"
          ("*extend", also from the tense skin in swollen places; supported by the rhyming tvìnti "swell");
          Lith. tiñ-klas "net",
          OPr. sasin-tinclo "hare net",
          Latv. tinu, tît "plait, wind, wrap",
          tina "type of net" (: OIr. tan),
          tineklis "something wound, wrapped";
          Lith. tandus "inert";
          OChSl. teneto, tonoto "rope".

          WP 1 723 f.,
          WH. II 662 ff.,
          Trautmann 323 f.,
          Vasmer 3, 93,
          Mayrhofer 1, 475,
          Bergin Eriu 12, 227 ff.


          temp- "extend, pull, tighten',
          extension of *ten- id;
          tempos- "(time) span'.

          NPers. ta:b-að,
          inf. ta:ftan and ta:b-i:-ðan "turn, spin',
          intr. "turn, be tormented'
          (from a
          *tap = PIE *tm.p-
          formed analogically to
          caus. *ta:payati),
          whence probably as Iran. loan
          Gr. tápe:s, dápis "cover, carpet';
          Arm. t´amb
          "(*stuffed satchel), saddle; the soft meat on animal bones";
          Gr. place name Témpe: (: lat. tempus "temple (anat.)");
          here also
          Lat. tempus, -oris n. "temple (anat.)"
          (of the thinly stretched skin,
          cf. ON etc þunn-vangi m. "temple (anat.)") =
          Lat. tempus "time stretch", further
          tempera:re "hold, give measure" (whence "mix");
          templum "the observation area delimited by the augur;
          any consecrated area" ("*stretched out = measured out");
          perhaps
          antemna: f. "yard (naut.)" ("the stretched-out onee") from
          *an(a)-temp-na:;
          templa, -o:rum
          "the stretched-out crossbeams on which the shingles are attached";
          contempla:ri: „atenés blépein",
          tempto:, -a:re (iterative to *tempo:)
          "touch, attack, examine, test"
          (s. Persson Beitr. 488 ff.);
          ON þambr "swollen, fat",
          þo,mb noun "swollen belly, bow string";
          Lith. tem~pti "tighten, extend",
          iter. tampýti id., tim~pti "stretch",
          tìmpa "sinew",
          temptýva "bow string" =
          OChSl. te,tiva "sinew",
          Lith. i,~tampas "tension, effort"
          (with ablaut i,tumpas "approach to a jump"),
          tamprùs "tough, elastic";
          Latv. tìeptiês "be tenacious";
          OChSl. to,pU "obtusus, crassus"?
          perhaps from "swollen";
          Russ. tepstí "tighten taut";
          Toch. A tampe "power", AB cämp- "be able to, capable of".

          WP. I 721 f.,
          WH. I 54, II 659 f. 662,
          Trautmann 317 f.,
          Vasmer 3, 95, 101, 153,
          Frisk Göteborgs Högsk. Årsskr. 57, 1951: 4.'


          de Vries
          'þunnr adj. "thin, weak, clear",
          Icel. þunnur, Faroese tunnur,
          Norw. Sw. tunn, Da. tynd
          (umlaut indicates u- stem).
          â€" OE ðynne, OS OHG thunni, MLG MDutch dunne, OHG dunni.
          â€" Sanskr. tanu- "thin, slender",
          Gr. tanú- "extended, long",
          Lat. tenuis,
          OIr. tanae,
          OSl. tInUkU "thin",
          Lith. te,vas "slender" (IEW 1069).
          â€" cf. þynna.
          â€" Þunnr m. as name of Odin is obscure,
          perhaps to be read Þundr.
          â€" þunnvangi m. "temple (anat.)", also þunnvengi,
          cf. MNorw. tunnvange,
          MSw. tinning, MDa. tinding,
          cf. Orkn. tangvangels (Marwick 187).
          â€" OE. ðunwang(e),
          MLG MDutch dunni(n)ge,
          OS tinnong,
          OHG dunwengi.
          â€" The first part is perhaps a
          Gmc. *þunno:, *þinno: f. "forehead, temple (anat.)"
          (Johannesson, Wb. 438)
          and the word is thus not to be understood as
          "place where the cheek is stretched" (FT 1262)'


          The "extended" *temp- root is probably back-formed from
          *ten-l- > *temp-l-, which Joao pointed out.

          Note Danish
          tynd "thin" with umlaut,
          tinding "temple (anat.)" without.
          I suspect the -v- in þunnvangi etc is not from vangi "cheek", but the -u- of the u-stem "thin" word. In other words *þinw-ung- (reinterpreted with vangi "cheek"?) "Stretched cheek" makes absolutely no sense used of the temples, "the thinning" does, as most men know.


          Torsten
        • dgkilday57
          ... I see no replacement here. If Greek slice of salted fish belongs with this root, the extension could be either *tem-h2- or *tem-n- (cf.
          Message 4 of 21 , Apr 16, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:
            >
            > Did *tempos replace an older *temHos ? What's the explanation for the -p- in templus and amplus?

            I see no replacement here. If Greek <temakhos> 'slice of salted fish' belongs with this root, the extension could be either *tem-h2- or *tem-n- (cf. <stomakhos>, <stoma> from *stom-n-). Sanskrit <tamisra:-> shows that the second vowel of Latin <tenebrae> represents a laryngeal, thus probably *temh2-sreh2-, originally 'division between day and night, twilight', hence 'gloom, darkness, blindness, rashness' etc.

            Latin <templum> originally signified 'bounded space', ritually cut out of its surroundings for augurial observations (as in the passage from Varro which I cited in my recent post on <arbiter>). It thus appears to be a simple passive noun *temp-lom 'that which is, or should be, cut out' vel sim.

            I have no convincing etymology of <amplus>. If it is borrowed from P-Italic, perhaps it meant 'unfilled, unfillable', hence 'immense', by semantic devaluation simply 'large, wide'. The negative prefix is illustrated by Oscan <amprufid> 'improperly' = Lat. <improbe:>, <ancensto> f. sg. 'uncounted in the census' = Lat. <incensa>, Umbrian <anhostatu> acc. m. pl. 'unequipped with spears' i.e. 'civilians' = Lat. <inhasta:to:s>, <ans'ihitu> 'ungirded (with official regalia)' = Lat. <incincto:s>. Buck (OUG sec. 98) regards it as a generalization of the prevocalic negative *n.n- (Greek an-, Sanskrit an-).

            Probably <ampla> 'handle of a shield or vessel' is unrelated. If this is from P-Italic, it could represent earlier *am(p)tla: from Italic *m.-tla: 'implement for grasping, handle'; the corresponding verb is Lat. <emere>, which occurs in Umbrian as <emantur> 3pl. pres. subj. pass. '(whether) they should be accepted'.

            DGK
          • Joao S. Lopes
            Webster links amplus to a root *am- to contain JS Lopes ________________________________ De: dgkilday57 Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 21 , Apr 17, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Webster links amplus to a root *am- "to contain"

              JS Lopes



              De: dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>
              Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
              Enviadas: Sexta-feira, 16 de Abril de 2010 18:14:11
              Assunto: Res: [tied] Re: Latin tempus

               



              --- In cybalist@yahoogroup s.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@.. .> wrote:
              >
              > Did *tempos replace an older *temHos ? What's the explanation for the -p- in templus and amplus?

              I see no replacement here. If Greek <temakhos> 'slice of salted fish' belongs with this root, the extension could be either *tem-h2- or *tem-n- (cf. <stomakhos>, <stoma> from *stom-n-). Sanskrit <tamisra:-> shows that the second vowel of Latin <tenebrae> represents a laryngeal, thus probably *temh2-sreh2- , originally 'division between day and night, twilight', hence 'gloom, darkness, blindness, rashness' etc.

              Latin <templum> originally signified 'bounded space', ritually cut out of its surroundings for augurial observations (as in the passage from Varro which I cited in my recent post on <arbiter>). It thus appears to be a simple passive noun *temp-lom 'that which is, or should be, cut out' vel sim.

              I have no convincing etymology of <amplus>. If it is borrowed from P-Italic, perhaps it meant 'unfilled, unfillable', hence 'immense', by semantic devaluation simply 'large, wide'. The negative prefix is illustrated by Oscan <amprufid> 'improperly' = Lat. <improbe:>, <ancensto> f. sg. 'uncounted in the census' = Lat. <incensa>, Umbrian <anhostatu> acc. m. pl. 'unequipped with spears' i.e. 'civilians' = Lat. <inhasta:to: s>, <ans'ihitu> 'ungirded (with official regalia)' = Lat. <incincto:s> . Buck (OUG sec. 98) regards it as a generalization of the prevocalic negative *n.n- (Greek an-, Sanskrit an-).

              Probably <ampla> 'handle of a shield or vessel' is unrelated. If this is from P-Italic, it could represent earlier *am(p)tla: from Italic *m.-tla: 'implement for grasping, handle'; the corresponding verb is Lat. <emere>, which occurs in Umbrian as <emantur> 3pl. pres. subj. pass. '(whether) they should be accepted'.

              DGK


               
            • Anatoly Guzaev
              Maybe we can compare Greek στόμα mouth with Slavic usta mouth (Russ уста; OSl оуста, Lat. ostium). It also may be related to the Slavic verb
              Message 6 of 21 , Apr 18, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Maybe we can compare Greek στόμα 'mouth' with Slavic usta 'mouth' (Russ уста; OSl оуста, Lat. ostium). It also may be related to the Slavic verb stavit (Russ ставить 'put'; вложить/ставить в уста 'put into the mouth'; SC staviti u usta 'put into the mouth', Cz po-stavit 'put'), which is probably derived from the noun stolb 'pillar, shaft, stanchion' (Cz oštěp 'shaft, spear', SC stub 'pillar, column', OIce stöpull 'column, tower', Eng. steeple, stave, Ger. Stab). Also stopa (Russ стопа, 'foot', ступня 'foot, sole', SC stupati 'step', Cz stoupání 'climbing'. For instance, Serbo-Croatian stablo 'tree, trunk' (probably the source of stolb) is undoubtedly related to stopalo 'foot' and to the verb staviti 'put' (cf. Eng. put and foot). SC ostava 'pantry, store' (from staviti, ostaviti 'deposit, store'; Skt sthāman 'place').The word stomach (SC stomak 'abdomen, belly', probably from Greek στόμᾰχος) may represent the above-mentioned store or pantry (SC ostava), from PIE *sta- and, possible, from the Ur-form *hobl-(h)-na (PSlav *оbьlъ; Russ обл, Cz oblý, LSorb hobli 'roundish, orbed', клапан 'piston', SC klip 'cob, dowel, piston, pivot', Ger Kolben).
                Of course, there are the other Slavic words which could additionally corroborate the above assumption. For example, Russian есть means 'eat', 'there is' in sense of existence/essence (cf. Russ истина 'truth'), and 'all right, yes' - and that doesn't seem to be coincidental.
                Latin templum also may be related to stablo, stem and even table (now we can suppose that table is related to Slavic stol 'table'; from *stobl-).
                On the other hand, Latin amplus 'large, spacious' is a clear-cut cognate of PSlavic *obilъ (Russ обилие 'abundance, plenty', SC obilje 'abundance, plenitude'.
                Greek κλιμακίς 'stair', καυλός 'stem' (cf. στέλεχος 'trunk, log') appeared to be related to the above Russian клапан (Ger Kolben) in the same way as stablo 'stem' (Russ стебель 'stalk, stem'; PSlav *stьblь-; Gr στυλοβάτης 'base of a column', κᾰλᾰμη 'stalk').
                Finally, if we consider carefully what Vasmer rote about the word лепить we may possibly be able to enter into the area of much dipper "perspective" of semantic and metonymical changes during the long-lasting development of IE languages.



                To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                From: dgkilday57@...
                Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 21:14:11 +0000
                Subject: Res: [tied] Re: Latin tempus

                 

                --- In cybalist@yahoogroup s.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@.. .> wrote:
                >
                > Did *tempos replace an older *temHos ? What's the explanation for the -p- in templus and amplus?

                I see no replacement here. If Greek <temakhos> 'slice of salted fish' belongs with this root, the extension could be either *tem-h2- or *tem-n- (cf. <stomakhos>, <stoma> from *stom-n-). Sanskrit <tamisra:-> shows that the second vowel of Latin <tenebrae> represents a laryngeal, thus probably *temh2-sreh2- , originally 'division between day and night, twilight', hence 'gloom, darkness, blindness, rashness' etc.

                Latin <templum> originally signified 'bounded space', ritually cut out of its surroundings for augurial observations (as in the passage from Varro which I cited in my recent post on <arbiter>). It thus appears to be a simple passive noun *temp-lom 'that which is, or should be, cut out' vel sim.

                I have no convincing etymology of <amplus>. If it is borrowed from P-Italic, perhaps it meant 'unfilled, unfillable', hence 'immense', by semantic devaluation simply 'large, wide'. The negative prefix is illustrated by Oscan <amprufid> 'improperly' = Lat. <improbe:>, <ancensto> f. sg. 'uncounted in the census' = Lat. <incensa>, Umbrian <anhostatu> acc. m. pl. 'unequipped with spears' i.e. 'civilians' = Lat. <inhasta:to: s>, <ans'ihitu> 'ungirded (with official regalia)' = Lat. <incincto:s> . Buck (OUG sec. 98) regards it as a generalization of the prevocalic negative *n.n- (Greek an-, Sanskrit an-).

                Probably <ampla> 'handle of a shield or vessel' is unrelated. If this is from P-Italic, it could represent earlier *am(p)tla: from Italic *m.-tla: 'implement for grasping, handle'; the corresponding verb is Lat. <emere>, which occurs in Umbrian as <emantur> 3pl. pres. subj. pass. '(whether) they should be accepted'.

                DGK




                Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.
              • Alexandru Moeller
                these whole slavic staviti , stol , stupati etc seems to me very, but very appropiate to the German forms ( staviti/stauen, stol/stuhl,
                Message 7 of 21 , Apr 18, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  these whole slavic "staviti", "stol", "stupati" etc seems to me very,
                  but very appropiate to the German forms ( staviti/stauen, stol/stuhl,
                  stupati/step(eng.). I wonder in how far these words are really "slavic"
                  or how "german" are they. One of these two groups must got it from the
                  another one. Since the intervocalic "u" (only?) became "v" in Slavic,
                  the german forms appears to be an older one (stauen). Of course this is
                  just a simply obervatsion, it doesnt mean too much if we think that
                  the actual "au" in German should derive from an older "u", or "o:".


                  best regards


                  Alexandru Moeller



                  Anatoly Guzaev schrieb:
                  >
                  >
                  > Maybe we can compare Greek στόμα 'mouth' with Slavic /usta /'mouth'
                  > (Russ /уста/; OSl /оуста/, Lat. /ostium/). It also may be related to the
                  > Slavic verb /stavit/ (Russ /ставить/ 'put'; /вложить///ставить в уста/
                  > 'put into the mouth'; SC /staviti u usta/ 'put into the mouth', Cz
                  > /po-stavit/ 'put'), which is probably derived from the noun /stolb
                  > /'pillar, shaft, stanchion' (Cz /oštěp /'shaft, spear', SC stub 'pillar,
                  > column', OIce /stöpull/ 'column, tower', Eng. /steeple, stave/, Ger.
                  > /Stab/). Also stopa (Russ /стопа, /'foot',/ ступня /'foot, sole', SC
                  > /stupati/ 'step', Cz /stoupání/ 'climbing'. For instance, Serbo-Croatian
                  > /stablo/ 'tree, trunk' (probably the source of /stolb/) is undoubtedly
                  > related to /stopalo/ 'foot' and to the verb /staviti/ 'put' (cf. Eng.
                  > /put/ and /foot/). SC /ostava/ 'pantry, store' (from /staviti, ostaviti/
                  > 'deposit, store'; Skt /sthāman/ 'place').The word /stomach/ (SC /stomak/
                  > 'abdomen, belly', probably from Greek στόμᾰχος) may represent the
                  > above-mentioned /store/ or /pantry/ (SC /ostava/), from PIE *sta- and,
                  > possible, from the Ur-form /*hobl-(h)-na/ (PSlav /*оbьlъ/; Russ /обл, Cz
                  > oblý/, LSorb /hobli /'roundish, orbed', /клапан/ 'piston', SC /klip/
                  > 'cob, dowel, piston, pivot', Ger Kolben).
                  > Of course, there are the other Slavic words which could additionally
                  > corroborate the above assumption. For example, Russian /есть/ means
                  > 'eat', 'there is' in sense of existence/essence (cf. Russ истина
                  > 'truth'), and 'all right, yes' - and that doesn't seem to be coincidental.
                  > Latin /templum/ also may be related to /stablo/, /stem/ and even /table/
                  > (now we can suppose that /table/ is related to Slavic /stol/ 'table';
                  > from /*stobl-/).
                  > On the other hand, Latin /amplus/ 'large, spacious' is a clear-cut
                  > cognate of PSlavic /*obilъ/ (Russ /обилие/ 'abundance, plenty', SC
                  > /obilje/ 'abundance, plenitude'.
                  > Greek κλιμακίς 'stair', καυλός 'stem' (cf. στέλεχος 'trunk, log')
                  > appeared to be related to the above Russian /клапан /(Ger Kolben) in the
                  > same way as stablo 'stem' (Russ стебель 'stalk, stem'; PSlav /*stьblь-/;
                  > Gr στυλοβάτης 'base of a column', κᾰλᾰμη 'stalk').
                  > Finally, if we consider carefully what Vasmer rote about the word лепить
                  > <http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/vasmer/42528> we may possibly be able to
                  > enter into the area of much dipper "perspective" of semantic and
                  > metonymical changes during the long-lasting development of IE languages.
                  >
                  >
                  > To: cybalist@yahoogroup s.com
                  > From: dgkilday57@yahoo. com
                  > Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 21:14:11 +0000
                  > Subject: Res: [tied] Re: Latin tempus
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In cybalist@yahoogroup s.com <mailto:cybalist@yahoogroups.com>,
                  > "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@.. .> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Did *tempos replace an older *temHos ? What's the explanation for the
                  > -p- in templus and amplus?
                  >
                  > I see no replacement here. If Greek <temakhos> 'slice of salted fish'
                  > belongs with this root, the extension could be either *tem-h2- or
                  > *tem-n- (cf. <stomakhos>, <stoma> from *stom-n-). Sanskrit <tamisra:->
                  > shows that the second vowel of Latin <tenebrae> represents a laryngeal,
                  > thus probably *temh2-sreh2- , originally 'division between day and
                  > night, twilight', hence 'gloom, darkness, blindness, rashness' etc.
                  >
                  > Latin <templum> originally signified 'bounded space', ritually cut out
                  > of its surroundings for augurial observations (as in the passage from
                  > Varro which I cited in my recent post on <arbiter>). It thus appears to
                  > be a simple passive noun *temp-lom 'that which is, or should be, cut
                  > out' vel sim.
                  >
                  > I have no convincing etymology of <amplus>. If it is borrowed from
                  > P-Italic, perhaps it meant 'unfilled, unfillable', hence 'immense', by
                  > semantic devaluation simply 'large, wide'. The negative prefix is
                  > illustrated by Oscan <amprufid> 'improperly' = Lat. <improbe:>,
                  > <ancensto> f. sg. 'uncounted in the census' = Lat. <incensa>, Umbrian
                  > <anhostatu> acc. m. pl. 'unequipped with spears' i.e. 'civilians' = Lat.
                  > <inhasta:to: s>, <ans'ihitu> 'ungirded (with official regalia)' = Lat.
                  > <incincto:s> . Buck (OUG sec. 98) regards it as a generalization of the
                  > prevocalic negative *n.n- (Greek an-, Sanskrit an-).
                  >
                  > Probably <ampla> 'handle of a shield or vessel' is unrelated. If this is
                  > from P-Italic, it could represent earlier *am(p)tla: from Italic
                  > *m.-tla: 'implement for grasping, handle'; the corresponding verb is
                  > Lat. <emere>, which occurs in Umbrian as <emantur> 3pl. pres. subj.
                  > pass. '(whether) they should be accepted'.
                  >
                  > DGK
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign
                  > up now. <https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969>
                  >
                • Anatoly Guzaev
                  I do not think that you can say which of these words (Slavic or Germanic) is older . Consider English stave, staff, stable, Ger. Stab etc. To:
                  Message 8 of 21 , Apr 19, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I do not think that you can say which of these words (Slavic or Germanic) is "older". Consider English stave, staff, stable, Ger. Stab etc.


                    To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                    From: alxmoeller@...
                    Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 20:59:16 +0200
                    Subject: Re: Res: [tied] Re: Latin tempus

                     
                    these whole slavic "staviti", "stol", "stupati" etc seems to me very,
                    but very appropiate to the German forms ( staviti/stauen, stol/stuhl,
                    stupati/step( eng.). I wonder in how far these words are really "slavic"
                    or how "german" are they. One of these two groups must got it from the
                    another one. Since the intervocalic "u" (only?) became "v" in Slavic,
                    the german forms appears to be an older one (stauen). Of course this is
                    just a simply obervatsion, it doesnt mean too much if we think that
                    the actual "au" in German should derive from an older "u", or "o:".

                    best regards

                    Alexandru Moeller

                    Recent Activity:
                      .



                      Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.
                    • Torsten
                      ... FWIW, on amplus, I am considering *aN-l- something close to the water, lush , from *aN- water, mouth of river . Ernout-Meillet ampla, -ae f.: poignée
                      Message 9 of 21 , Apr 20, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        > On the other hand, Latin amplus 'large, spacious' is a clear-cut
                        > cognate of PSlavic *obilU (Russ obilie 'abundance, plenty', SC
                        > obilje 'abundance, plenitude'.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Did *tempos replace an older *temHos ? What's the explanation for the -p- in templus and amplus?
                        >
                        >
                        > Latin <templum> originally signified 'bounded space', ritually cut out of its surroundings for augurial observations (as in the passage from Varro which I cited in my recent post on <arbiter>). It thus appears to be a simple passive noun *temp-lom 'that which is, or should be, cut out' vel sim.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I have no convincing etymology of <amplus>. If it is borrowed from
                        > P-Italic, perhaps it meant 'unfilled, unfillable', hence 'immense',
                        > by semantic devaluation simply 'large, wide'. The negative prefix
                        > is illustrated by Oscan <amprufid> 'improperly' = Lat. <improbe:>,
                        > <ancensto> f. sg. 'uncounted in the census' = Lat. <incensa>,
                        > Umbrian <anhostatu> acc. m. pl. 'unequipped with spears' i.e.
                        > 'civilians' = Lat. <inhasta:to:s>, <ans'ihitu> 'ungirded (with
                        > official regalia)' = Lat. <incincto:s>. Buck (OUG sec. 98) regards
                        > it as a generalization of the prevocalic negative *n.n- (Greek an-,
                        > Sanskrit an-).
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Probably <ampla> 'handle of a shield or vessel' is unrelated. If
                        > this is from P-Italic, it could represent earlier *am(p)tla: from
                        > Italic *m.-tla: 'implement for grasping, handle'; the corresponding
                        > verb is Lat. <emere>, which occurs in Umbrian as <emantur> 3pl.
                        > pres. subj. pass. '(whether) they should be accepted'.
                        >
                        > DGK


                        FWIW, on amplus, I am considering *aN-l- "something close to the water, lush", from *aN- "water, mouth of river".


                        Ernout-Meillet
                        'ampla, -ae f.:
                        poignée (d'un bouclier),
                        anse (d'un vase) = gr. labé:, labe:~s;
                        puis, métaphoriquement (comme a:nsa), occasion (rare, peut-être dans Cic., Verr. 3, 60). En dehors de cet exemple douteux, ne se trouve que dans Ammien, Rufin et Servius.
                        M.L.429.
                        Les rapprochements proposés pour expliquer ce mot technique sont tous incertains.'
                        ...

                        'amplus, -a, -um: large, ample, vaste, puis "grand, abondant, nombreux"; souvent avec idée d'éloge ou de respect, d'où uir amplissimus, etc.
                        - Ancien (Liv.And.).
                        Panroman sauf roumain. M.L.430.
                        De l'adverbe ample: (ampliter), le comparatif amplius a été employé dans la langue juridique pour réclamer un supplément d'enquête; de 1à. le double sens de amplia:re "augmenter, agrandir" et, dans la l. du droit, "ajourner";
                        amplia:tio:; examplio:.
                        Amplius dans la langue commune a le sens de ultra:, praeterea:, ou simplement plu:s. Conservé peut-être dans le v.fr. amplois.
                        Dim.: ampliusculus (arch.).
                        Amplitu:do:,-inis f. (sens phys. et mor.).
                        Ampla:re, qui est dans Pacuvius, a été remplacé par une forme plus pleine dérivée de l'adj. composé amplificus, amplifica:re; de là amplifica:tio: qui dans la langue de la rhétorique traduit aúkse:sis; examlifico:.
                        Aucun rapprochement net.'

                        Vasmer:
                        'obi´lnyj 'reichlich, im Überfluß',
                        obi´len, obi´lIna; obi´lie 'Überfluß',
                        ukr. obýľnyj, aruss. obilU 'reichlich', obilIje 'Getreide',
                        nbulg. obilU dapsilé:s, áphthonos (Supr.),
                        obilije aphthonía (Supr.),
                        bulg. obílen,
                        skr. òbil, òbilan, dass., òbi~lje 'Fülle',
                        sloven. obi~l(&n), obi~lje, c^ech. obilí 'Getreide',
                        slk. obilie dass. ||

                        Urslav. *obilU aus *obvilU, vgl.
                        abulg. izvilije 'Überfluß',
                        vUzvitU f. 'Vorteil',
                        verwandt mit
                        aind. vi:tás 'verfolgt, begehrt',
                        vi:is. f. 'Genuß',
                        lit. vejù, výti 'jage, verfolge', vajóju, vajóti 'verfolgen',
                        aind. veti 'verfolgt',
                        avest. vayeiti 'jagt',
                        vi:tar- 'Verfolger',
                        lat. vis 'du willst', vi:s 'Kraft',
                        s.
                        Meillet Ét. 413,
                        Brandt BW. 23, 93,
                        Trautmmш BSl. 345ff.,
                        Mladenov 365.

                        Vgl. vo´in, vojna´.

                        Abzulehnen ist der Vergleich von obi´lInyj mit lat. fe:lix 'glückbringend, fruchtbar' (gegen Petr BB. 21, 211). Dieses bed. urspr. 'nährend, saugend' zu
                        fe:mina,
                        griech. the:lé: 'Mutterbrust' (s. ditja´, doi´tI),
                        vgl. Walde-Hofmann 1, 474ff.'


                        and, surprise, UEW:
                        'ampæ- 'werfen; schießen' FP
                        Finn. ampu- 'schießen' (> lapp. R ambo-);
                        est. ambu (Gen. ambu), amb (Gen. ammu), ammu (Gen. ammu) 'Bogen' |

                        lapp. N ab'bo- -bb- 'boil over, boil so fast that part of the contents runs away' K (T. I. Itk., WbKKLp. 1)
                        Kld. àmbpa-, -a:-, Ko. Not. a`Bpa- 'anschwellen, über die Ufer treten (das Wasser im Fluß und im See sowie auch im Kessel, wenn z. B. zu viel Fische hineingelegt werden, überkochen (von der Suppe)' |

                        wotj. S i_b-, K &b-, (Wichm.) G î_bî_- 'schießen (S G); werfen, schleudern (K)'.

                        Finn. u und lapp. o sind Verbalsuffixe.

                        Im Wotj. kann ein Lautwandel *a > *u > i_ stattgefunden haben (vgl. E. Itkonen: FUF 31 :303).

                        Im Lapp. muß ein Bedeutungswandel 'schießen' -> 'überkochen' angenommen werden.

                        Castrén: Suomi 1845:181;
                        Lindström: Suomi 1852:13;
                        MUSz. 707;
                        Ahlqvist, Kulturw. 240;
                        Munkácsi: Ethn. 6:352;
                        ÁKE 383;
                        Wichmann: FUF 1:192, MSFOu. 21:24, Vir. 1930:393;
                        Toivonen: JSFOu. 34/2:43;
                        NyH7 42;
                        E. Itkonen: FUFA 27:35, 31:156, 303;
                        SKES;
                        A. Kövesi: Vir. 1963:244;
                        Lytkin, VokPerm. 202.'

                        ie.

                        "'ampæ- "throw; shoot" Finno-Permic
                        Finn. ampu- "shoot" (> Saami R ambo-);
                        Est. ambu (Gen. ambu), amb (Gen. ammu), ammu (Gen. ammu) "bow" |

                        Saami N ab'bo- -bb- "boil over, boil so fast that part of the contents runs away" K (T. I. Itk., WbKKLp. 1)
                        Kld. àmbpa-, -a:-, Ko. Not. a`Bpa- "swell, run over the banks (the water in the river and in the lake as also in the cauldron, when eg. too many fish is put into it, boil over (of soup)" |

                        Udmurt S i_b-, K &b-, (Wichm.) G îbî- "shoot (S G); throw, sling (K)".

                        Finn. u and Saami. o are verbal suffixes.

                        In Udmurt a change *a > *u > i_ might have taken place (cf E. Itkonen: FUF 31 :303).

                        In Saami a semantic change "shoot" -> "boil over" must be assumed."

                        I think it's the other way round, that it's the "swell, be abundant" which is the original sense. If so, this one is related as *aN-d- (vel sim.):

                        UEW
                        'antæ (ontæ) 'junges Gras, Schößling, Rasen' FP

                        Tscher.
                        (MRS) oðar 'poroslI, pobeg; vetvI, vetvistyj',
                        B oðar 'dicht (Baum)'
                        oð&^ran,- 'Schößlinge treiben',
                        oð&ran,ð- 'sprießen' |

                        wotj. S K urt-, (Wichm) G ud-:
                        S ud-n´an´, K urt-n´an´ 'Wintersaat, Winterkorn',
                        S ud-murt, K urt-mort, G ud-mort 'Wotjak'
                        (urwotj. *od > tscher. U oð&^, B oðo 'Wotjake',
                        altruss. oty, otynU, otjakU, russ. votjak;
                        russ. > syrj. S P vot´ak;
                        wotj. ud > syrj. ud: vot-ud 'Wotjak') |

                        syrj. Ud. VU Vm. od 'vesennjaja zelenI na lugax (VU Vm.), vsxody, rostok (Ud.)'.

                        < urar.: vgl.
                        altind. ándhas 'Kraut, Grün, Somakraut, Somatrank',
                        gr. áuthos 'Blume, Blüte',
                        ostfriesisch andel 'eine feine salzhaltige Graspflanze'.

                        Tscher. ar (&^r) ist ein denom. Nominalsuffix.

                        Wotj. K urt- ist in Analogie zu mort > murt in *od-murt > ud-murt entstanden.

                        Wie bekannt, leben die Wotjaken in einer Landschaft, die von Wiesen und Wäldern bedeckt ist, und sie bekamen ihren Namen nach der geographischen Lage ihres Wohngebietes: ud-murt usw. 'Wiesen- od. Feldmann' -> 'Wotjake'. Ähnliche Benennungen sind auch
                        tscher. kur&^k marij ( = russ. gornye mari 'Bergtscheremisse',
                        ol^&k marij ( = russ. lugovye mari) 'Wiesentscheremisse',
                        liv. rå:ndalist ( = finn. rantalaiset) 'die Liven' ('Uferbewohner').

                        Radanovics [=Rédei]: CIFU 102â€"4;
                        Bereczki: NyK 66:387, 79:71;
                        Katz: ÉFOu. 15:179.'


                        ie.

                        "'antæ (ontæ) "new grass, sprout, grassy field" FP

                        Mari
                        (MRS) oðar "underwood, sprout; branch, branching",
                        B oðar "dense (tree)"
                        oð&^ran,- "cultivate sprouts",
                        oð&ran,ð- "sprout" v. |

                        Udmurt S K urt-, (Wichm) G ud-:
                        S ud-n´an´, K urt-n´an´ "winter seed, winter grain",
                        S ud-murt, K urt-mort, G ud-mort "Udmurt"
                        (Proto-Udmurt *od > Mari U oð&^, B oðo "Udmurt",
                        ORuss oty, otynU, otjakU, Russ. votjak;
                        Russ. > Komi S P vot´ak;
                        Udmurt ud > Komi ud: vot-ud "Udmurt") |

                        Komi Ud. VU Vm. od
                        "green on meadows in spring (VU Vm.), sprouts (Ud.)".

                        < IE: cf
                        Sanskr ándhas "herb, green, soma plant, soma drink",
                        Greek áuthos "Blume, Blüte",
                        East Frisian andel "a fine grassy plant containing salt".

                        Mari ar (&^r) is a denom. nominal suffix.

                        Udmurt K urt- is arisen in analogy to mort > murt in
                        *od-murt > ud-murt.

                        As well known, the Udmurts live in an environment covered by meadows and forests, and they got their name from the geographical position of their settlements: ud-murt etc. "meadow or field man" -> "Udmurt". Similar designations are also
                        Mari kur&^k marij ( = russ. gornye mari "Mountain Mari",
                        ol^&k marij ( = russ. lugovye mari) "Meadow Mari",
                        liv. rå:ndalist ( = finn. rantalaiset) "Livonians" ("coast people")."


                        Note the IE connection also of the last one.


                        Torsten
                      • Alexandru Moeller
                        I actually don t mean that way since older as word shouldn t be very, very proper here. Yet, it should be possible to recognise if these words shows a
                        Message 10 of 21 , Apr 20, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I actually don't mean that way since "older" as word shouldn't be very,
                          very proper here. Yet, it should be possible to recognise if these
                          words shows a development from IE to germanic or to slavic without any
                          ambiguity, for knowing the direction of borrowing.


                          best regards

                          Alexandru Moeller



                          Anatoly Guzaev schrieb:
                          >
                          >
                          > I do not think that you can say which of these words (Slavic or
                          > Germanic) is "older". Consider English stave, staff, stable, Ger. Stab etc.
                          >
                          > To: cybalist@yahoogroup s.com
                          > From: alxmoeller@arcor. de
                          > Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 20:59:16 +0200
                          > Subject: Re: Res: [tied] Re: Latin tempus
                          >
                          >
                          > these whole slavic "staviti", "stol", "stupati" etc seems to me very,
                          > but very appropiate to the German forms ( staviti/stauen, stol/stuhl,
                          > stupati/step( eng.). I wonder in how far these words are really "slavic"
                          > or how "german" are they. One of these two groups must got it from the
                          > another one. Since the intervocalic "u" (only?) became "v" in Slavic,
                          > the german forms appears to be an older one (stauen). Of course this is
                          > just a simply obervatsion, it doesnt mean too much if we think that
                          > the actual "au" in German should derive from an older "u", or "o:".
                          >
                          > best regards
                          >
                          > Alexandru Moeller
                          >
                          > Recent Activity:
                          >
                          > Visit Your Group
                          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist;_ylc=X3oDMTJlY2k4Z2k4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyNzk4MzgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTI3MTYxNzE2Mw-->
                          >
                          > MARKETPLACE
                          > Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on -
                          > Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.
                          > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=15o2lfaso/M=493064.13983314.13965207.13298430/D=groups/S=1705739206:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1271624363/L=809870ce-4b1c-11df-9ed5-fbdeab1dd027/B=K4ZfBtGDJHw-/J=1271617163288404/K=b09_VLTMZzwZLe1UdVq9Ag/A=6060255/R=0/SIG=1194m4keh/*http://us.toolbar.yahoo.com/?.cpdl=grpj>
                          > Welcome to Mom Connection! Share stories, news and more with moms like
                          > you.
                          > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=15of2jkjp/M=493064.13814537.13965224.10835568/D=groups/S=1705739206:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1271624363/L=809870ce-4b1c-11df-9ed5-fbdeab1dd027/B=LIZfBtGDJHw-/J=1271617163288404/K=b09_VLTMZzwZLe1UdVq9Ag/A=6042764/R=0/SIG=11jbo19n3/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/momconnection>
                          > Hobbies & Activities Zone: Find others who share your passions! Explore
                          > new interests.
                          > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=15o503ot2/M=493064.14012770.13963757.13298430/D=groups/S=1705739206:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1271624363/L=809870ce-4b1c-11df-9ed5-fbdeab1dd027/B=LYZfBtGDJHw-/J=1271617163288404/K=b09_VLTMZzwZLe1UdVq9Ag/A=6015306/R=0/SIG=11vlkvigg/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/hobbiesandactivitieszone/>
                          > Yahoo! Groups
                          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkM2RiOWI0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyNzk4MzgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMjcxNjE3MTYz>
                          >
                          > Switch to: Text-Only
                          > <mailto:cybalist-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change%20Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional>,
                          > Daily Digest
                          > <mailto:cybalist-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email%20Delivery:%20Digest>
                          > � Unsubscribe
                          > <mailto:cybalist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe> �
                          > Terms of Use <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
                          > .
                          >
                          >
                          > Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up
                          > now. <https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969>
                          >
                        • Anatoly Guzaev
                          I m not sure if I understood you well. Last time you wrote that German(ic) forms appear to be older (than Slavic?), because Germanic /u/ mutated to /v/ in
                          Message 11 of 21 , Apr 20, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I'm not sure if I understood you well. Last time you wrote that "German(ic) forms appear to be older" (than Slavic?), because Germanic /u/ mutated to /v/ in Slavic. My opinion is that the mentioned sound changes had been occurring the other way round: from the voiced bilabial plosiv /b/ to voiceless /v/ and finally to vowel /u/ or diphthong /au/ (cf. Eng stave and Ger Stau, Stab). English stalk seems to be closely related to PSlavic *stьblo (Russ стебель, Cz stéblo, SC stabljika 'stalk'; *həbl-h/n-).


                            To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                            From: alxmoeller@...
                            Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 21:03:47 +0200
                            Subject: Re: Res: [tied] Re: Latin tempus

                             
                            I actually don't mean that way since "older" as word shouldn't be very,
                            very proper here. Yet, it should be possible to recognise if these
                            words shows a development from IE to germanic or to slavic without any
                            ambiguity, for knowing the direction of borrowing.

                            best regards

                            Alexandru Moeller




                            Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.
                          • Brian M. Scott
                            At 2:44:12 AM on Wednesday, April 21, 2010, Anatoly Guzaev ... That *h&bl-h/n- makes very little sense. According to Derksen, Russ.
                            Message 12 of 21 , Apr 22, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              At 2:44:12 AM on Wednesday, April 21, 2010, Anatoly Guzaev
                              wrote:

                              > English stalk seems to be closely related to PSlavic
                              > *stIblo (Russ stebel', Cz stéblo, SC stabljika 'stalk';
                              > *h&bl-h/n-).

                              That *h&bl-h/n- makes very little sense. According to
                              Derksen, Russ. <stebel'> is from PSl. *stIblI 'stem, stalk,
                              trunk', from PIE *stibH-l-yo-; Cz. <stéblo> and Russ.
                              <stebló> (dialect; ORuss. <stIblo>) are from PSl. *stIblo,
                              from PIE *stibH-l-om. Baltic has cognates without the *l.
                              I see no reason to think that English <stalk> is from the
                              same root.

                              Brian
                            • Anatoly Guzaev
                              ... This is a hypothetical protoform, and I admit it doesn t make much sense at first glance. In fact, I am close to believe that steblo is related (through
                              Message 13 of 21 , Apr 23, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                >That *h&bl-h/n- makes very little sense.

                                This is a hypothetical protoform, and I admit it doesn't make much sense at first glance. In fact, I am close to believe that steblo is related (through the metathesis, omission and metonymy) to Lat. culmus, OE healm, Russ. solóma 'stalk, stem, straw', although I am not sure where the sound /t/ (in stebl-) is coming from.

                                >According to
                                >Derksen, Russ. <stebel'> is from PSl. *stIblI 'stem, stalk,
                                >trunk', from PIE *stibH-l-yo- >; Cz. <stéblo> and Russ.
                                ><stebló> (dialect; ORuss. <stIblo>) are from PSl. *stIblo,
                                >from PIE *stibH-l-om. Baltic has cognates without the *l.
                                >I see no reason to think that English <stalk> is from the
                                >same root.


                                My opinion is different from yours. Latin stipula is most probably related to PSlavic *stьblь; as well as OE stapol 'a post, pillar, column, stalk', ODu. stapel 'stem, stalk'. There were a lot of sound changes here. For instance, Cz stopka 'stalk' is derived from stebel (stablika > stopka) too.



                                Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.
                              • Alexandru Moeller
                                oh, I see. Please note that what I wrote, this was just an observation and to me it looks like these words are Germanic words which got borrowed into Slavic.
                                Message 14 of 21 , Apr 24, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  oh, I see. Please note that what I wrote, this was just an observation
                                  and to me it looks like these words are Germanic words which got
                                  borrowed into Slavic. So far I know, the change of intervocalic "u" to
                                  "v" in Slavic is pretty late but I guess I better to let someone who
                                  understands more about Slavic and Germanic to show to which group these
                                  words really belong to.

                                  best regarsd

                                  Alexandru MOeller



                                  Anatoly Guzaev schrieb:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I'm not sure if I understood you well. Last time you wrote that
                                  > "German(ic) forms appear to be older" (than Slavic?), because Germanic
                                  > /u/ mutated to /v/ in Slavic. My opinion is that the mentioned sound
                                  > changes had been occurring the other way round: from the voiced bilabial
                                  > plosiv /b/ to voiceless /v/ and finally to vowel /u/ or diphthong /au/
                                  > (cf. Eng stave and Ger Stau, Stab). English /stalk/ seems to be closely
                                  > related to PSlavic /*stьblo/ (Russ /стебель/, Cz /stéblo/, SC
                                  > /stabljika/ 'stalk'; / *h // ə // bl-h/n- /).
                                  >
                                  > To: cybalist@yahoogroup s.com
                                  > From: alxmoeller@arcor. de
                                  > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 21:03:47 +0200
                                  > Subject: Re: Res: [tied] Re: Latin tempus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I actually don't mean that way since "older" as word shouldn't be very,
                                  > very proper here. Yet, it should be possible to recognise if these
                                  > words shows a development from IE to germanic or to slavic without any
                                  > ambiguity, for knowing the direction of borrowing.
                                  >
                                  > best regards
                                  >
                                  > Alexandru Moeller
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign
                                  > up now. <https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969>
                                  >
                                • Torsten
                                  ... ... the Slavic verb stavit (Russ ставить put ; вложить/ставить в уста
                                  Message 15 of 21 , Apr 24, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > At 2:44:12 AM on Wednesday, April 21, 2010, Anatoly Guzaev
                                    > wrote:

                                    ... the Slavic verb stavit (Russ ставить 'put'; вложить/ставить в уста 'put into the mouth'; SC staviti u usta 'put into the mouth', Cz po-stavit 'put'), which is probably derived from the noun stolb 'pillar, shaft, stanchion' (Cz oštěp 'shaft, spear', SC stub 'pillar, column', OIce stöpull 'column, tower', Eng. steeple, stave, Ger. Stab). Also stopa (Russ стопа, 'foot', ступня 'foot, sole', SC stupati 'step', Cz stoupání 'climbing'. For instance, Serbo-Croatian stablo 'tree, trunk' (probably the source of stolb) is undoubtedly related to stopalo 'foot' and to the verb staviti 'put' (cf. Eng. put and foot). SC ostava 'pantry, store' (from staviti, ostaviti 'deposit, store'; Skt sthāman 'place').The word stomach (SC stomak 'abdomen, belly', probably from Greek στόμᾰχος) may represent the above-mentioned store or pantry (SC ostava), from PIE *sta- and, possible, from the Ur-form *hobl-(h)-na (PSlav *оbьlъ; Russ обл, Cz oblý, LSorb hobli 'roundish, orbed', клапан 'piston', SC klip 'cob, dowel, piston, pivot', Ger Kolben).
                                    ...
                                    Latin templum also may be related to stablo, stem and even table (now we can suppose that table is related to Slavic stol 'table'; from *stobl-).



                                    > > English stalk seems to be closely related to PSlavic
                                    > > *stIblo (Russ stebel', Cz stéblo, SC stabljika 'stalk';
                                    > > *h&bl-h/n-).
                                    >
                                    > That *h&bl-h/n- makes very little sense. According to
                                    > Derksen, Russ. <stebel'> is from PSl. *stIblI 'stem, stalk,
                                    > trunk', from PIE *stibH-l-yo-; Cz. <stéblo> and Russ.
                                    > <stebló> (dialect; ORuss. <stIblo>) are from PSl. *stIblo,
                                    > from PIE *stibH-l-om. Baltic has cognates without the *l.
                                    > I see no reason to think that English <stalk> is from the
                                    > same root.
                                    >

                                    de Vries
                                    'stafr m. "staff, stick, pillar; formular; letter, rune",
                                    MIcel stafur, Faroese stavur, MNorw. Sw. Da. stav.
                                    â€" > Shetl. stav, > Hebrid. staf "type of seaweed"
                                    (Christiansen MM 1938, 10), >
                                    Manx staff- (Marstrander NTS 6, 1932, 283), >
                                    Saami stappe "barrel stave" (Qvigstad 319).
                                    â€" Goth. stafs "letter",
                                    OE. stæf "staff, letter",
                                    OFr. stef,
                                    OS staf,
                                    OHG stap "staff"
                                    â€" Lith. stãbas "idol",
                                    Latv. stabs "support, pillar",
                                    Sanskrit stabhnāti beside stambhate: "supports, impedes",
                                    Lith. stabýti "make stop",
                                    Toch. A stop, stow "staff" (IEW 1012-3).

                                    â€" cf stabbi, stafa, stafn, stef, stefja 1, stefna and stapi.

                                    The sense "letter" is from OE stæf; as "rune" it probably wouldn't have meant a wooden stave decorated with a rune. Nor would it mean literally "component part" (as in lagastafr "component part of beer"), as Lindquist SNF 9 Nr 1, 13 assumes, referring to Got. stafs, which also had had the sense "element" (see for an opposing view W. Krogmann IF 48, 1930, 268).

                                    â€" The word stafr occurs only infrequently as part of names as Guðstafr, Ráðstafr, cf WGerm Sigistab.

                                    The IE stem *ste(m)bh is one of the numerous extensions of a thematic root *st(h)e, which is used in particular for words of forestry. Whether it further is related to the root *stha: (cf standa), we will leave open.
                                    Beside the extensions with labial, dental and guttural, occur forms such as *stei und *steu, as also *stel und *ster. From these stems words have been created
                                    for "stub" (cf stabbi, stubbi, stofn, stumpr, stúfr, stútr),
                                    for "the de-branched trunk" (strangi), further
                                    for "stake, beam" (stafr, stagl, stál, stoð, stokkr, sto,pull, stik, stauli, stúka) and
                                    "rod, bar" (staki, steggi, stuðill, sto,ng, stikk, staurr). The wood served in particular for
                                    "palisades" (stakkr, stífla) and for
                                    "fences" (stekka, stoð, sto,ðull, stía), thus also words for
                                    "cut off, dam" (staka, slengja, stemma, stoppa).
                                    There are a few words for
                                    "roof" (staka 1), "gable" (stafn), with ? for "house" (stofa).
                                    For joining the stakes willow wicker or rope were used (stag, stæðingr). The activities connected with this work are:
                                    "thrust" (stjaka, stokka, stinga),
                                    "stomp" (stappa 2, stauta).
                                    Adjectives are
                                    "blunt, short" (stuttr), "strong" (stinnr).
                                    The transition from "wattle fence" to "male circle" occurs only rarely (cf stund, stím, stýra). Formally the words of this group are the following
                                    extended with labial stafr, stifla, stúfr - stabbi, stubbi
                                    stappa,
                                    stampr, stumpr, stoppa, sto,pull, staup, stúpa,
                                    stafn, stofn, stemma, stíni
                                    extended with dental
                                    stal, stoð, stóð, stæðingr, stuðill,
                                    sto,ðull, stund, stuttr, stauta, stútr
                                    extended with guttural
                                    stag, stagl, steggi, stengja, stiga,
                                    stinga, sto,ng staki, stakkr, stekki, stikull,
                                    stjaka, stokkr, sto,kki
                                    extended with l: cf stallr
                                    extended with r: cf starr.

                                    Most of these words have no IE correspondences, but where they occur, they all point to the same semantic field; thus there are IE correspondences for the "pole, stake" words
                                    stafn, stauli, staurr, stífla, stjo,lr, stolpi, stúfr;
                                    the senses "stiff, rigid, strong" occur with the IE correspondences of
                                    steikr, stjarfr, stórr,
                                    "thrust, stomp, stab" with those of
                                    stauta, stappa 2 and stika.
                                    This shows that already PIE had developed an intricate and formally variable word group for working with wood.'

                                    UEW
                                    'śolke "buckle, clasp" FW, ?? FP
                                    Finn. solki (Gen. soljen) "buckle, clasp"
                                    (>lapp. N sŏă-laкa, soleкi),
                                    (SKES dial.) solkipuu "support, transom" (puu "tree, wood");
                                    Est. sõlg (gen. sõle) "buckle, clasp; rod, transom, latch" |
                                    Saami
                                    N čulgum
                                    "side-piece of a Lapp winter brogue made of shank-shin;
                                    side-piece of winter legging or driving gloves of rindeer-skin",
                                    L tjul`kum "the wedge-shaped gusset in a glove; the lateral shoe part of a fur shoe under the lateral part of the "upper leather", ruojas (corresponds roughly to the vamp, but consists of two parts on each shoe)" |

                                    mord. E śulgamo, M śulgam "fibula" |

                                    Mari
                                    (Bud.) šolkamá "fibula in antica parte indusii",
                                    (Szil.) šə^lkama "brooch",
                                    ?B šə^rkama "women's fibula" |

                                    ??[Udmurt
                                    S K śul "sledge sole, runner",
                                    (Wichm., inf. Uot.: MSFOu. 67:400) G śul: deďî-ś. "sledge runner" |

                                    Komi
                                    Le. śul: doď-ś., Ud. śuv: dojd~ś. "sledge runner(s)"
                                    (doď "sledge").]

                                    In Saami, Mordvin and Mari m is a deriv. suffix.
                                    In Mari we would expect lγ in inlaut instead lk. It is possible that lk came about under the influence of B šə^rkama "women's fibula", the affiliation of which is uncertain because of r.'


                                    'salkз- 'stehen' FU
                                    Mari KB šalγ-, U B M šoγ- "stand" |

                                    Udmurt
                                    S sil-, K sə^l- "stand, exist, remain; cost (a price), be valid",
                                    G sîlî- "stand",
                                    S sult- "stand (up); get up (eg from sleeping)",
                                    G sultî- "stand up" |

                                    Komi S sulal-, P suva:v- "stand", PO sula:l- "id.; cost" |

                                    Hung. áll- "stand (still); be valid".

                                    Hung. ll can be explained from *lγ < *lk.'


                                    The question is whether NW European *st- goes with Uralic *s or Uralic *s´ or possibly both, but according to which rules?



                                    Torsten
                                  • Brian M. Scott
                                    At 9:36:39 AM on Friday, April 23, 2010, Anatoly Guzaev ... Good grief. Brian
                                    Message 16 of 21 , Apr 25, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      At 9:36:39 AM on Friday, April 23, 2010, Anatoly Guzaev
                                      wrote:

                                      >>That *h&bl-h/n- makes very little sense.

                                      > This is a hypothetical protoform, and I admit it doesn't
                                      > make much sense at first glance. In fact, I am close to
                                      > believe that steblo is related (through the metathesis,
                                      > omission and metonymy) to Lat. culmus, OE healm, Russ.
                                      > solóma 'stalk, stem, straw', although I am not sure where
                                      > the sound /t/ (in stebl-) is coming from.

                                      Good grief.

                                      Brian
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.